Discussion III about the Suspension List
November 24th, 2022 at 10:30:04 AM
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Quote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
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Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
I’m not saying OnceDear and MDawg are friends. I’m saying it was a cute joke by MDawg, and NOT EVEN CLOSE to an insult!
Self examine….. why did you suspend MDawg for that big nothing!?!?
November 24th, 2022 at 10:55:17 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
I’m not saying OnceDear and MDawg are friends. I’m saying it was a cute joke by MDawg, and NOT EVEN CLOSE to an insult!
Self examine….. why did you suspend MDawg for that big nothing!?!?
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Agreed, that was just good fun humor I would be willing to bet OD would agree.
Dieter takes his role, his authority way too serious.
November 24th, 2022 at 11:20:10 AM
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Quote: SOOPOO
I’m not saying OnceDear and MDawg are friends. I’m saying it was a cute joke by MDawg, and NOT EVEN CLOSE to an insult!
Self examine….. why did you suspend MDawg for that big nothing!?!?
link to original post
First of all, MDawg has sufficient wealth, at least judging from his posts, that a three day suspension from here should be meaningless to him. In fact, there have been a couple of recent situations in which I would have intentionally taken Suspensions, except they might have interfered with the WoV Picks Game, so I didn't. That's just to illustrate that a three-day Suspension is similarly meaningless to me and those Suspensions would have had nothing to do with MDawg.
Anyway, I wouldn't give MDawg so little credit as to even insinuate that he actually cares about being Suspended for three days---seems kind of rude.
Secondly, speaking from only my experience as a former Administrator, my reasoning would be thus:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/5288-suspension-list/#post71165
Quote:MDawg 10/20/22
Personal insult. Leniency given for apologizing. Suspension issued because apology was not accepted by the victim.
Quote:MDawg 9/28/22
Bullying
Quote:MDawg 8/18/22
personal insult and here
Quote:MDawg 8/9/22
personal insult and here
Quote:MDawg 6/22/22
Personal Insult
Quote:MDawg 5/22/22
Personal Attack
That's just from this year, of course.
With respect to Forum Rules, I would suggest that almost nobody here cares about what other people say about them, to any extent. The rules do not exist to protect anyone's feelings because, if it being implied that you're a, 'Turkey,' actually hurts your feelings, then you likely need your head examined, anyway.
The rules exist so that a certain standard of decorum is maintained in the posts and that the website looks attractive to those who may read and want to join. The Rules also exist so that you don't end up with a Forum that looks like VCT, and there definitely is a place for a forum like that, don't misunderstand, this forum is just not that place.
With that, you apply the rules with increasing aggressiveness on those who have repeatedly demonstrated that they need to have a harsh interpretation of the rules applied to them. While I'm not saying I agree with every single one of MDawg's Suspensions, (I haven't reviewed them all and also don't care) they are certainly numerous enough that my inclination would be to apply the rules to him as strictly as possible such that he could be quite sure he gets zero benefit of the doubt and zero wiggle room.
More to the point, and no offense meant to MDawg (who I have no problem with), but were I still an Admin, he almost certainly would have been Nuked about eight times over already. With that, my position is that a questionable three day Suspension here or there is not so bad, even it if is for only an implied, and extremely minor, infraction of the rules.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 24th, 2022 at 11:23:31 AM
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Before anyone argues with my most recent post, please note:
1.) I did not require Wizard's permission to Nuke someone, though I would tell him I was doing it and why.
2.) I am no longer an Administrator.
3.) I do not care what your opinion is.
I'm merely saying why someone might toss out a three day Suspension for such a soft implied insult.
1.) I did not require Wizard's permission to Nuke someone, though I would tell him I was doing it and why.
2.) I am no longer an Administrator.
3.) I do not care what your opinion is.
I'm merely saying why someone might toss out a three day Suspension for such a soft implied insult.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 24th, 2022 at 11:28:55 AM
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Quote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Quote: SOOPOO
I’m not saying OnceDear and MDawg are friends. I’m saying it was a cute joke by MDawg, and NOT EVEN CLOSE to an insult!
Self examine….. why did you suspend MDawg for that big nothing!?!?
link to original post
Quote: rainman
Agreed, that was just good fun humor I would be willing to bet OD would agree.
Dieter takes his role, his authority way too serious.
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I must be dense because i dont get mdawg's joke.
i thought mdawg was taking a cheap shot at oncedear
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
November 24th, 2022 at 11:45:01 AM
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I didn't interpret it as Oncedear being called a turkey.
MDawg actually says turkeys get pardoned so why can't Oncedear which implies Once dear is better than a turkey and deserves the appropriate pardon.
So I saw it as an attempt to help out Once Dear, not to put him down.
MDawg actually says turkeys get pardoned so why can't Oncedear which implies Once dear is better than a turkey and deserves the appropriate pardon.
So I saw it as an attempt to help out Once Dear, not to put him down.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
November 24th, 2022 at 11:50:28 AM
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Quote: darkozI didn't interpret it as Oncedear being called a turkey.
MDawg actually says turkeys get pardoned so why can't Oncedear which implies Once dear is better than a turkey and deserves the appropriate pardon.
So I saw it as an attempt to help out Once Dear, not to put him down.
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As a poster, I interpret it the same way you did. Basically, just to give OnceDear a break. I also don't have any problem with MDawg or his posts, except when he is implying that I said something that I didn't, which he seems to enjoy doing from time to time.
As an Admin and given MDawg's posting history (were I still an Admin), I would have chosen to interpret it the other way given his many apparent rules violations and suspensions. I don't want to delve too much into opinion, but I also understand that he complains to the Admins about others sometimes, or, at least, has been accused of doing so. If he was the type to call for others to be suspended for things said to him with great frequency, then there's a very good chance I'd be headhunting him for rules violations anyway as both a general detriment to the Forum, and also, a minor pain in my butt.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 24th, 2022 at 1:17:38 PM
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Biden looks like he died fifteen years ago
It’s all about making that GTA
November 24th, 2022 at 1:42:56 PM
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unfortunately, with the rate I'm losing my hair (I'm not social security age yet), I'm probably going to look like that at age 80.Quote: Ace2
Biden looks like he died fifteen years ago
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He probably should have his top instead of the comb over
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
November 24th, 2022 at 1:46:35 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
MDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
May the cards fall in your favor.
November 24th, 2022 at 2:01:15 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
MDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
link to original post
Props to Dieter. MDawg does approach the line, (sort of like how I do?), but this was not one of those times. Be, please, Dieter, do NOT suspend yourself. You took advice, re examined the situation and admitted an error, and corrected it. That’s all one could ask for in a greenie.
November 24th, 2022 at 5:01:28 PM
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I thought it was an insult because of what I think of as similar one, "Someone said you weren't fit to eat with the pigs, but I said that you were."
But then again, I wouldn't suspend anyone for insults.
I would just toss everyone, once a week.
But then again, I wouldn't suspend anyone for insults.
I would just toss everyone, once a week.
Sanitized for Your Protection
November 24th, 2022 at 8:58:30 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
MDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
link to original post
Props to Dieter. MDawg does approach the line, (sort of like how I do?), but this was not one of those times. Be, please, Dieter, do NOT suspend yourself. You took advice, re examined the situation and admitted an error, and corrected it. That’s all one could ask for in a greenie.
link to original post
I do agree with Soopoo that Dieter eventually got it right. And that I, too, am hoping Dieter does not self-suspend.
BTW, if moderators are going to be called "greenies", can we call Soopoo (and every other non-moderator) a "blue boy?" Or, a "blooey"? Should Mdawg, recently rescued from the suspension list, be referred to as "blue-again?" Or should we just drop the reference to colors?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 24th, 2022 at 8:58:39 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
MDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
link to original post
Props to Dieter. MDawg does approach the line, (sort of like how I do?), but this was not one of those times. Be, please, Dieter, do NOT suspend yourself. You took advice, re examined the situation and admitted an error, and corrected it. That’s all one could ask for in a greenie.
link to original post
I do agree with Soopoo that Dieter eventually got it right. And that I, too, am hoping Dieter does not self-suspend.
BTW, if moderators are going to be called "greenies", can we call Soopoo (and every other non-moderator) a "blue boy?" Or, a "blooey"? Should Mdawg, recently rescued from the suspension list, be referred to as "blue-again?" Or should we just drop the reference to colors?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 24th, 2022 at 8:58:39 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
MDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
link to original post
Props to Dieter. MDawg does approach the line, (sort of like how I do?), but this was not one of those times. Be, please, Dieter, do NOT suspend yourself. You took advice, re examined the situation and admitted an error, and corrected it. That’s all one could ask for in a greenie.
link to original post
I do agree with Soopoo that Dieter eventually got it right. And that I, too, am hoping Dieter does not self-suspend.
BTW, if moderators are going to be called "greenies", can we call Soopoo (and every other non-moderator) a "blue boy?" Or, a "blooey"? Should Mdawg, recently rescued from the suspension list, be referred to as "blue-again?" Or should we just drop the reference to colors?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 24th, 2022 at 9:07:02 PM
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WMOAT is the popper term for all MODS.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
November 25th, 2022 at 4:08:37 AM
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Quote: DieterMDawg, I am very sorry for the misunderstanding.
Please accept a 1 day penalty credit against future infractions.
link to original post
Water under the bridge.
And yes, the way DarkOz interpreted it is the way I intended it as an attempt to help OnceDear out, except that actually I didn't even view it as a comparison between a turkey and OnceDear, more as simply a general statement that if pardons are being offered around this time why not to OnceDear?
Quote: darkozI didn't interpret it as Oncedear being called a turkey.
MDawg actually says turkeys get pardoned so why can't Oncedear which implies Once dear is better than a turkey and deserves the appropriate pardon.
So I saw it as an attempt to help out Once Dear, not to put him down.
link to original post
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
November 25th, 2022 at 11:11:11 AM
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I'm willing to bet if used randomly around Thanksgiving there is at least a 1 in 4 chance it would be taken as an insult. As long as it's used in regard to not receiving some punishment. S&M doesn't count.
Sanitized for Your Protection
November 27th, 2022 at 7:50:17 AM
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If anyone is still interested in this nothingburger of an issue, I'll relate my opinion.Quote: DieterQuote: SOOPOOQuote: DieterQuote: MDawgU.S. Presidents traditionally pardon turkeys around Thanksgiving, but OnceDear can't get a reprieve?
link to original post
Characterizing OnceDear as a turkey would seem to be an insult.
Sticking to the 3 day minimum is about the limit of my clement inclinations.
link to original post
You totally missed the point! It was a subtle joke! Unsuspend the big Dawg now! You can ask OnceDear if he felt the SLIGHTEST bit insulted!
link to original post
As OnceDear is currently on suspension, I think I shall need to wait until his return to reconsider.
If OnceDear tells me that it was, in fact, a joke between friends ("banter"), I shall humbly apologize, issue credit for time served in error, and serve a similar suspension myself.
link to original post
My immediate thought when I saw MDawg's post was
"Did that [mild expletive] just call me a turkey?". I chuckled as I considered my reply, but then realised that I was suspended. " Did the [mild expletive] just do that as a cheap shot, knowing that I could not reply?"
Was I upset? No. of course not. I percieved it as MDawg having a joke at my expense. Yes, an uncharacteristically cheap shot. Yes, something of a personal attack or insult. But minor and trivial.
But soon I saw Soopoo's comment, that maybe MDawg was jokingly appealing for me to be granted a pardon. I could see that interpretation. What I saw was a fine bit of ambiguity. If I can say one thing about MDawg, I believe he's a very skilled wordsmith. If there's ambiguity in his posts, I credit him with having created that ambiguity knowingly, even if he does so out of good humor. If he were appealing for my release, he was unsuccessful.
I believe that Mission assessed the overall situation quite well. He highlights that MDawg has quite a record for being suspended for personal insults, some of which were subtle or veiled. And not all of those suspensions were by me, so it's not all down to my perception. Mission points out that as a 'member' he would take the charitable view that MDawg was appealing for a pardon, but as a moderator, he might have erred on the side of strict enforcement, based on past form and to encourage forum decorum.*
Would I have expected Dieter to suspend MDawg? A close call. I think I'd have expected a gentle rebuke and the suggestion that MDawg acknowledge and clarify the ambiguity. Having considered feedback, Dieter was right to unsuspend MDawg, but need not, IMHO, have self suspended. Granting credit for the day served is a bit unprecedented while there was any validity to the idea that Dieter's initial ruling had any slight merit. Release with time-served would have been normal practice.
At the end of the day, it's all water under the bridge. Nobody died. It was, at worst, a misunderstanding or two between adults.
I accept MDawg's explanation, which I'm sure he gave at the earliest opportunity. So hopefully, we're all good.
To Dieter...... Stop going off for a nap in the cells, ya little tinker. What do you think this is? Holiday season $:o) **
* I hope I characterised everyone's posts and actions correctly.
** Joke between friends.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
November 28th, 2022 at 12:43:33 AM
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Oncedear says "If anyone is still interested in this nothingburger of an issue, I'll relate my opinion"
I was recently suspended and when I came back I said nothing about it. You on the other hand have to make an Encyclopedia Britannica entry about your suspension. What does that tell us.
I was recently suspended and when I came back I said nothing about it. You on the other hand have to make an Encyclopedia Britannica entry about your suspension. What does that tell us.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
November 28th, 2022 at 1:09:47 AM
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That you and I are different?Quote: EvenBobOncedear says "If anyone is still interested in this nothingburger of an issue, I'll relate my opinion"
I was recently suspended and when I came back I said nothing about it. You on the other hand have to make an Encyclopedia Britannica entry about your suspension. What does that tell us.
link to original post
That my posts are longer and more verbose than yours but less frequent?
I've said nothing about my suspension in that post. I was answering a posed question about my opinion of MDawg's 'maybe an insult'.
Oh.... And it does tell us that you don't have me blocked. Not much beyond that.
Enjoy life.
OD.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
November 28th, 2022 at 8:09:30 AM
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Quote: EvenBobOncedear says "If anyone is still interested in this nothingburger of an issue, I'll relate my opinion"
I was recently suspended and when I came back I said nothing about it. You on the other hand have to make an Encyclopedia Britannica entry about your suspension. What does that tell us.
link to original post
It tells us you're more concerned about the suspension than OnceDear is, because it doesn't even relate to you at all, yet you still decided to make a post about it.
November 28th, 2022 at 12:22:09 PM
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Why is rxwine in red?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
November 28th, 2022 at 12:32:07 PM
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He like merlot over chardonnay??
November 28th, 2022 at 12:32:08 PM
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Quote: AxelWolfWhy is rxwine in red?
link to original post
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/online/37590-election-betting-odds/13/#post872883
I don't see it, personally, but I'm probably a little biased in favor of rxwine in the capacity of a Member rather than former Mod. The only thing I think RX might have done is replace the word, "You," with something like, "A person," but even then I don't think he was actually talking about the people he was quoting, necessarily. Replacing the second-person with third-person/generic would have removed any doubt on that, though.
My opinion obviously doesn't matter, but Rxwine has not had a Suspension since 03/2021, so I'd have probably just given him a soft warning. Even that Suspension from 03/21 is one that he had to know he was taking as it was a pretty blatant violation that was doubtlessly intentional. I feel like Rxwine wouldn't have beaten around the bush as he tends to say what he wants to say, so if he wanted to suggest that anyone from this forum is a racist, then I think he would have just done it directly and taken a little time out.
Gordon seems to indicate that this Suspension might be reviewed by other mods, I think? I think his language on that was a bit ambiguous, so I guess we'll see.
Oh, and I'll get in front of Tuttigym's almost-inevitable sarcastic comment on this one---nobody's opinions really matter except those of the Admins, but this thread exists for the purpose of discussing Suspensions, which is what I was doing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 28th, 2022 at 1:09:03 PM
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You made a lengthy argument about how someone who has a lot of prior suspensions should be given less rope than someone with few priors. In criminal law, priors may be used in some circumstances depending on the statute to lengthen the sentence imposed statutorily. A judge may also use priors to hand down a longer sentence by discretion, unless disallowed by statute.
However, here at WOV we have abolished the martingale rule, so priors don't seem to carry much if any weight when it comes to the length of sentence. At minimum, we would have to say that there is no automatic doubling of the prior suspension.
So, your argument about giving a person less discretion doesn't matter at WOV as far as length of sentence - but then, that's not what you were talking about.
What you were talking about, is giving less leeway to someone who has a lot of recent priors, when the post in question might or might not violate the WOV rules. I'd ask you to consider whether you're trying to say that one's character as demonstrated by prior specific instances of conduct (prior suspensions) should be offered to prove their conduct on a specified later occasion. That - isn't allowed by any rules of evidence with which I am familiar - it becomes a sort of "rule violators, violate rules" argument (the equivalent in criminal law would be that burglars burgle). It's one thing to point out a specific prior act to prove for example intent, quite another to say that because someone broke the rules before he is more likely to have broken them again.
From the Federal Rules of Evidence
Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts
(b) Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of any other crime, wrong, or act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
(2) Permitted Uses. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.
The general rule: CHARACTER EVIDENCE IS NOT ADMISSIBLE. More particularly, character evidence is generally not admissible when offered for the purposes of proving conduct in conformity with the character trait offered.
However, here at WOV we have abolished the martingale rule, so priors don't seem to carry much if any weight when it comes to the length of sentence. At minimum, we would have to say that there is no automatic doubling of the prior suspension.
So, your argument about giving a person less discretion doesn't matter at WOV as far as length of sentence - but then, that's not what you were talking about.
What you were talking about, is giving less leeway to someone who has a lot of recent priors, when the post in question might or might not violate the WOV rules. I'd ask you to consider whether you're trying to say that one's character as demonstrated by prior specific instances of conduct (prior suspensions) should be offered to prove their conduct on a specified later occasion. That - isn't allowed by any rules of evidence with which I am familiar - it becomes a sort of "rule violators, violate rules" argument (the equivalent in criminal law would be that burglars burgle). It's one thing to point out a specific prior act to prove for example intent, quite another to say that because someone broke the rules before he is more likely to have broken them again.
From the Federal Rules of Evidence
Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts
(b) Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of any other crime, wrong, or act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
(2) Permitted Uses. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.
The general rule: CHARACTER EVIDENCE IS NOT ADMISSIBLE. More particularly, character evidence is generally not admissible when offered for the purposes of proving conduct in conformity with the character trait offered.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
November 28th, 2022 at 1:37:01 PM
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That's pretty much correct, or I have no disagreements with it. Three days still seems to be the standard for the shortest initial Suspension length, so since that is the Suspension length aside, it becomes a binary question of, "Suspension or no Suspension." Without the Martingale, you'd look at the post standing alone, so looking at that, I would say that there is no way that is more than a three-day Suspension.
The longer paragraph, which I will quote:
The difference between this and criminal law is that we do have a clear incident (the post) that is there for all to see and it's a question of determining whether or not the post violates any rules. It's not as if you have a burglary, so because a person has burgled before, you go and arrest the former burglar when you don't even have evidence that puts him at the scene of the crime. The evidence is the post, suspension or none, so it's just a question of, "Is this post a 'crime'?"
I imagine that there are exceptions in physical criminal law where the question of whether or not a crime even happened comes into play, probably shady accounting and things of that nature would be an example, but most crimes a criminal event either happened or it didn't and the burden of proof is unchanging, as you point out.
That's not the case with posters and Suspensions aren't particularly life-changing (I would hope not) anyway. If you have someone with no priors, or very few, then you can say, "Given his posting history and number of posts, that was probably an accident. Let's just shoot him a PM to check his verbiage in the future or perhaps give a light in thread warning." If you have someone with a ton of infractions already, then they don't get the leeway and your assumption as an Admin, be it right or wrong, is that they are just trying to figure out how close to the line they can get.
Also, as an Admin, there are honestly some people you'd prefer to have gone anyway as generally disruptive to the Forum, but not quite to the extent that you feel like you can justify the rarely-used, "Rule 20." With that, you just kind of hope for those people to hang themselves sometimes with the rope that they have also supplied to themselves; as an Admin, you definitely don't try to goad someone into committing an infraction as that would be WAY overstepping.
The longer paragraph, which I will quote:
Quote: MDawgWhat you were talking about, is giving less leeway to someone who has a lot of recent priors, when the post in question might or might not violate the WOV rules. I'd ask you to consider whether you're trying to say that one's character as demonstrated by prior specific instances of conduct (prior suspensions) should be offered to prove their conduct on a specified later occasion. That - isn't allowed by any rules of evidence with which I am familiar - it becomes a sort of "rule violators, violate rules" argument (the equivalent in criminal law would be that burglars burgle). It's one thing to point out a specific prior act to prove for example intent, quite another to say that because someone broke the rules before he is more likely to have broken them again.
The difference between this and criminal law is that we do have a clear incident (the post) that is there for all to see and it's a question of determining whether or not the post violates any rules. It's not as if you have a burglary, so because a person has burgled before, you go and arrest the former burglar when you don't even have evidence that puts him at the scene of the crime. The evidence is the post, suspension or none, so it's just a question of, "Is this post a 'crime'?"
I imagine that there are exceptions in physical criminal law where the question of whether or not a crime even happened comes into play, probably shady accounting and things of that nature would be an example, but most crimes a criminal event either happened or it didn't and the burden of proof is unchanging, as you point out.
That's not the case with posters and Suspensions aren't particularly life-changing (I would hope not) anyway. If you have someone with no priors, or very few, then you can say, "Given his posting history and number of posts, that was probably an accident. Let's just shoot him a PM to check his verbiage in the future or perhaps give a light in thread warning." If you have someone with a ton of infractions already, then they don't get the leeway and your assumption as an Admin, be it right or wrong, is that they are just trying to figure out how close to the line they can get.
Also, as an Admin, there are honestly some people you'd prefer to have gone anyway as generally disruptive to the Forum, but not quite to the extent that you feel like you can justify the rarely-used, "Rule 20." With that, you just kind of hope for those people to hang themselves sometimes with the rope that they have also supplied to themselves; as an Admin, you definitely don't try to goad someone into committing an infraction as that would be WAY overstepping.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 28th, 2022 at 2:01:54 PM
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We might be both saying somewhat close to the same thing.
What I'm saying is that using a prior rule violation to show intent - is okay, such as say, so and so keeps taking cheap shots at so and so without naming him, and here is yet another example of the same as demonstrated by the prior rule violation where the same or similar verbiage was used. That works.
But simply saying that someone who has committed more rule violations should have his current potential rule violation considered more strictly than someone who has less rule violations, is not right especially if the new rule violation has nothing to do in context with the prior one. Maybe the guy learned his lesson and is genuinely trying not to break the rules any longer. Otherwise everyone who has a record doesn't get the same justice as far as guilt or innocence as those without one.
There are situations where prior bad acts are admissible, but not simply to try to show that because he broke the rules before he is probably breaking them again now.
What I'm saying is that using a prior rule violation to show intent - is okay, such as say, so and so keeps taking cheap shots at so and so without naming him, and here is yet another example of the same as demonstrated by the prior rule violation where the same or similar verbiage was used. That works.
But simply saying that someone who has committed more rule violations should have his current potential rule violation considered more strictly than someone who has less rule violations, is not right especially if the new rule violation has nothing to do in context with the prior one. Maybe the guy learned his lesson and is genuinely trying not to break the rules any longer. Otherwise everyone who has a record doesn't get the same justice as far as guilt or innocence as those without one.
There are situations where prior bad acts are admissible, but not simply to try to show that because he broke the rules before he is probably breaking them again now.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
November 28th, 2022 at 4:09:00 PM
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Quote: MDawg
From the Federal Rules of Evidence
Rule 404. Character Evidence; Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts
(b) Other Crimes, Wrongs, or Acts.
(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of any other crime, wrong, or act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.
(2) Permitted Uses. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.
how completely and totally ridiculous to quote this in reference to a suspension on a gambling board
trying to show off knowledge of the law
irrelevant and immaterial
knowledge without common sense is a worthless thing
.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
November 28th, 2022 at 4:18:00 PM
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The outcome of the moderator review of rxwine's suspension in the Election Betting Odds thread is that the suspension stands at 3 days but that the justification is changed to a Rule 12 violation.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
November 28th, 2022 at 4:33:16 PM
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Interesting as far as rxwine.
As far as lilred, we're talking about a guy who once after I suggested that he at least wish me luck before I went downstairs to play, and BBB stepped in to wish me good luck, clammed up and refused to utter a supportive word. Yeah, that kind of guy.
Anyway, once you’ve gone to law school, your thinking will never be the same. See an accident happen - and you’ll be thinking in terms of tort law - Duty. Breach. Actual cause. Legal cause. Damages. And the same with any kind of administrative or criminal proceeding your mind will automatically break it down to legal elements. I’m sure it’s the same with a doctor seeing someone exhibiting symptoms of something or other the doctor will break it down in his mind differently from a layman. Or an engineer viewing a mechanical contraption.
Just because you’re not looking through the same colored lenses doesn’t make the perception and analysis inapposite.
As far as lilred, we're talking about a guy who once after I suggested that he at least wish me luck before I went downstairs to play, and BBB stepped in to wish me good luck, clammed up and refused to utter a supportive word. Yeah, that kind of guy.
Anyway, once you’ve gone to law school, your thinking will never be the same. See an accident happen - and you’ll be thinking in terms of tort law - Duty. Breach. Actual cause. Legal cause. Damages. And the same with any kind of administrative or criminal proceeding your mind will automatically break it down to legal elements. I’m sure it’s the same with a doctor seeing someone exhibiting symptoms of something or other the doctor will break it down in his mind differently from a layman. Or an engineer viewing a mechanical contraption.
Just because you’re not looking through the same colored lenses doesn’t make the perception and analysis inapposite.
Quote: Mission146That's pretty much correct, or I have no disagreements with it.
link to original post
Quote: MDawgWe might be both saying somewhat close to the same thing.
link to original post
Last edited by: MDawg on Nov 28, 2022
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
November 28th, 2022 at 8:46:25 PM
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_______________
you can flap your gums from here to eternity but the facts remain as such:
Federal Law has nothing at all to do with a mod's decision as to whether or not to suspend a member or how long or severe that suspension should be
mods would have no reason at all to use Federal Law as guidance
it only has to do with your love of presenting your law credentials
and your imagining that there are many who care about this
.
you can flap your gums from here to eternity but the facts remain as such:
Federal Law has nothing at all to do with a mod's decision as to whether or not to suspend a member or how long or severe that suspension should be
mods would have no reason at all to use Federal Law as guidance
it only has to do with your love of presenting your law credentials
and your imagining that there are many who care about this
.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Nov 28, 2022
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
November 29th, 2022 at 1:43:03 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster_______________
you can flap your gums from here to eternity but the facts remain as such:
Federal Law has nothing at all to do with a mod's decision as to whether or not to suspend a member or how long or severe that suspension should be
mods would have no reason at all to use Federal Law as guidance
link to original post
trimmed
Quote: Rule 8Keep it legal: Don't post anything that would violate the laws of Nevada or the United States. For example, anything libelous, or promoting anything obviously illegal.
We might have reason to use law as guidance, but not be bound by evidentiary procedure in decision.
If people want to use structured arguments, that is their business.
One of my former instructors had a policy that (paraphrased) "essays that are so lengthy or confusing that I fall asleep while grading get an F".
While that isn't the general policy here, I know I find it difficult to push buttons meaningfully while I'm asleep, and it's a fair guess that I might have recently eaten a L-tryptophan sandwich.
May the cards fall in your favor.
November 29th, 2022 at 8:35:14 AM
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Structured arguments are fine. Long arguments are fine. I read through some of Mission146's posts and sometimes they are my cup of tea and I choose to follow them closely, and other times not.
I used to feel like there were more than one poster here who just seemed so dour that you could practically feel the agony behind their posts, but lately I think just one remains? Just gotta laugh 😆 and move on. Lately that poster seems to get more indignant than ever over my posts. 🧐 Actually there might be two left, not just one.
I'm always saying "Glad to've met you" to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though. -JD Salinger
(Not everyone has learned that lesson of life though.)
I used to feel like there were more than one poster here who just seemed so dour that you could practically feel the agony behind their posts, but lately I think just one remains? Just gotta laugh 😆 and move on. Lately that poster seems to get more indignant than ever over my posts. 🧐 Actually there might be two left, not just one.
I'm always saying "Glad to've met you" to somebody I'm not at all glad I met. If you want to stay alive, you have to say that stuff, though. -JD Salinger
(Not everyone has learned that lesson of life though.)
Last edited by: MDawg on Nov 29, 2022
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
November 29th, 2022 at 3:49:30 PM
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Quote: gordonm888Given the announcement of the closing of this thread, I will be granting rxwine early clemency at 12 noon Pacific time.
link to original post
Gentle reminder.
15:49 PCT?
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
November 29th, 2022 at 4:27:16 PM
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Quote: lilredroosterit only has to do with your love of presenting your law credentials and your imagining that there are many who care about this
Well said.
Lest we forget:
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2.
nb: not personally seeking the liquidation of any particular attorney (heck, I practiced for 40 years), just noting that the dislike of attorneys is well-rooted in society
Last edited by: MrV on Nov 29, 2022
"What, me worry?"
November 29th, 2022 at 5:35:57 PM
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Quote: MrVQuote: lilredroosterit only has to do with your love of presenting your law credentials and your imagining that there are many who care about this
Well said.
Lest we forget:
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2.
nb: not personally seeking the liquidation of any particular attorney (heck, I practiced for 40 years), just noting that the dislike of attorneys is well-rooted in society
link to original post
Most people don't marinate them long enough.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 29th, 2022 at 5:42:35 PM
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Thanks for the early release. Thread appears to be closed anyway. Not asking for anything either.
Concerning my suspension, that post contrary to perception that it was about "you stop being racist" was actually intended to be blatantly 'anti-racist', generally aimed at the Trump meeting in the context, as is "Hey Trump, maybe if you stop doing things that make people associate you with racism, you might not have to complain so much about being called a racist, like meeting with Kanye who you already knew was making antisemitic remarks even aside from the guy you said you didn't know." Sorry that wasn't clear. It was more or less a sudden thought, likely sprung from an earlier conversation I had been having though I didn't bring any actual link to that conversation.
Also want to apologize to any kid for my post being compared to a kid writing something on a wall. I was not nearly so forward thinking as school kid to post anti-racist graffiti.
Concerning my suspension, that post contrary to perception that it was about "you stop being racist" was actually intended to be blatantly 'anti-racist', generally aimed at the Trump meeting in the context, as is "Hey Trump, maybe if you stop doing things that make people associate you with racism, you might not have to complain so much about being called a racist, like meeting with Kanye who you already knew was making antisemitic remarks even aside from the guy you said you didn't know." Sorry that wasn't clear. It was more or less a sudden thought, likely sprung from an earlier conversation I had been having though I didn't bring any actual link to that conversation.
Also want to apologize to any kid for my post being compared to a kid writing something on a wall. I was not nearly so forward thinking as school kid to post anti-racist graffiti.
Sanitized for Your Protection
December 1st, 2022 at 3:15:39 AM
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___________
I don't get why JuliePa was suspended
she made several posts in the Election Betting Odds thread but that was an acceptable thread as many have posted there - it would seem to me to be impossible to post in that thread and not have your post be somewhat political
why would just she be suspended_____? - makes no sense to me - it doesn't seem fair
also, the fact that she is new here would make it seem to me like a better thing to give her a warning if for some reason necessary the first time -
imho she should be un-suspended and she should get an apology
even if she gets an apology; which is really, really doubtful; as I have never witnessed anybody here apologizing for anything; I tend to doubt she will come back after having this happen
.
I don't get why JuliePa was suspended
she made several posts in the Election Betting Odds thread but that was an acceptable thread as many have posted there - it would seem to me to be impossible to post in that thread and not have your post be somewhat political
why would just she be suspended_____? - makes no sense to me - it doesn't seem fair
also, the fact that she is new here would make it seem to me like a better thing to give her a warning if for some reason necessary the first time -
imho she should be un-suspended and she should get an apology
even if she gets an apology; which is really, really doubtful; as I have never witnessed anybody here apologizing for anything; I tend to doubt she will come back after having this happen
.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Dec 1, 2022
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
December 1st, 2022 at 4:16:37 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster___________
I don't get why JuliePa was suspended
she made several posts in the Election Betting Odds thread but that was an acceptable thread as many have posted there - it would seem to me to be impossible to post in that thread and not have your post be somewhat political
why would just she be suspended_____? - makes no sense to me - it doesn't seem fair
also, the fact that she is new here would make it seem to me like a better thing to give her a warning if for some reason necessary the first time -
imho she should be un-suspended and she should get an apology
even if she gets an apology; which is really, really doubtful; as I have never witnessed anybody here apologizing for anything; I tend to doubt she will come back after having this happen
.
link to original post
Quote: Rule 11Multiple accounts: One account per person. Posting under multiple identities is cause for immediate expulsion. (Added 12/30/2010)
May the cards fall in your favor.
December 1st, 2022 at 4:24:16 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster___________
I don't get why JuliePa was suspended
she made several posts in the Election Betting Odds thread but that was an acceptable thread as many have posted there - it would seem to me to be impossible to post in that thread and not have your post be somewhat political
why would just she be suspended_____? - makes no sense to me - it doesn't seem fair
also, the fact that she is new here would make it seem to me like a better thing to give her a warning if for some reason necessary the first time -
imho she should be un-suspended and she should get an apology
even if she gets an apology; which is really, really doubtful; as I have never witnessed anybody here apologizing for anything; I tend to doubt she will come back after having this happen
.
link to original post
I’m sorry you’ve never witnessed anyone here apologize for anything.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 1st, 2022 at 4:30:38 AM
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____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
the foolish sayings of a rich man often pass for words of wisdom by the fools around him
December 1st, 2022 at 4:34:27 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
If that works to explain some people's amazing gambling results, I see no reason not to try it here.
May the cards fall in your favor.
December 1st, 2022 at 4:37:36 AM
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Quote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
I’m actually curious about this answer! That’s especially true if the IP match was an IP in Nevada, or something.
The Admins might actually have something better than that now, but IP matching was all I ever had to use. I also think other Admins can probably figure out more from an IP than I could. A different Forum operator seems to be able to get your entire life story from an IP, but I think he must be a computer genius or something.
Another reason I’m curious is, as you mentioned, the JuliePA account didn’t seem to ever break any rules, so I’d have had no reason (if still an Admin) to look at the IP address anyway, imo.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 1st, 2022 at 4:44:11 AM
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Quote: DieterQuote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
If that works to explain some people's amazing gambling results, I see no reason not to try it here.
link to original post
Not good enough!
Spill the beans! Don’t you know Administrating this Forum is the most important job in the entire world and people live or die based on whether or not even three day Suspensions are served…much more so Nukes?
The people demand transparency! We invoke the Freedom of Information Act, or something.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 1st, 2022 at 4:48:08 AM
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Quote: Mission146Quote: DieterQuote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
If that works to explain some people's amazing gambling results, I see no reason not to try it here.
link to original post
Not good enough!
Spill the beans! Don’t you know Administrating this Forum is the most important job in the entire world and people live or die based on whether or not even three day Suspensions are served…much more so Nukes?
The people demand transparency! We invoke the Freedom of Information Act, or something.
link to original post
Quit screaming about it. If you would quit missing the Trilateral Commission meetings you would be up to date.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
December 1st, 2022 at 5:00:17 AM
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Quote: Mission146Quote: DieterQuote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
If that works to explain some people's amazing gambling results, I see no reason not to try it here.
link to original post
Not good enough!
Spill the beans! Don’t you know Administrating this Forum is the most important job in the entire world and people live or die based on whether or not even three day Suspensions are served…much more so Nukes?
The people demand transparency! We invoke the Freedom of Information Act, or something.
link to original post
Any meaningful answer I give might tend to divulge valuable trade secrets which would aid the other side in their assault of our outnumbered beleaguered defenses.
May the cards fall in your favor.
December 1st, 2022 at 5:04:29 AM
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Quote: Mission146Quote: DieterQuote: lilredrooster____________
okay, it appears I was mistaken
I apologize
how would it be determined that she had multiple accounts___________?
because postings came from the same IP address_____________________________________?
.
link to original post
If that works to explain some people's amazing gambling results, I see no reason not to try it here.
link to original post
Not good enough!
Spill the beans! Don’t you know Administrating this Forum is the most important job in the entire world and people live or die based on whether or not even three day Suspensions are served…much more so Nukes?
The people demand transparency! We invoke the Freedom of Information Act, or something.
link to original post
As an Ex-Mod, I'll reveal that the moderators do now have more than just IP matching to go on. 'Nuff said'
The guys are also pretty smart at interpreting behaviors and in identifying 'SEO teams' that try to make the odd, on topic, human post to look genuine.
In the case of JuliePA there was other evidence of inappropriate intent, that was visible to an ordinary member that knew where to look.
It's right that the mods keep some of their 'method' secret, so as to stymie spammers and mischief makers.
Psalm 25:16
Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
December 1st, 2022 at 5:29:24 AM
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I think you mean it's right that the mods keep their system secret! ;)Quote: OnceDearIt's right that the mods keep some of their 'method' secret, so as to stymie spammers and mischief makers.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
