Discussion III about the Suspension List
Quote: billryanQuote: MrVQuote: gordonm888Coachbelly has been immediately suspended for a Rule 18 violation
A "Hate speech" violation, eh?
Let's dig deeper...
What ever happened to having to show bad intent?
What, we dare not utter these words, no matter what the context?
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I've no problem with that word and a few others never being said again. I can't think of a legitimate use for it.
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I'm old. Not politically correct by any stretch. And I laugh at certain politically incorrect jokes such as a certain Blazing Saddles scene where the N word is repeated to great effect. (No. let's not link to it).
To me, intent is important, and judging that intent is the tricky bit. As as been pointed out, chink, slant, slope and many words can be used to offend, and various swear words could be used as terms of endearment.
If we could all just not use clearly offensive words, it would make the moderators' lives so much easier.
The moderators are still deliberating over coachbelly's penalty, so I won't second guess the outcome, here.
Quote: MrVQuote: gordonm888Coachbelly has been immediately suspended for a Rule 18 violation
A "Hate speech" violation, eh?
Let's dig deeper...
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If I may summarize some recent thread history:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/36338-discussion-iii-about-the-suspension-list/18/#post851743
q: If people say X, can they get suspended?
a: "Yes"
"X"
(member has been suspended)
I'm struggling a bit to connect the dots here, but I think I've almost got it.
I would have thought that the use of clearly and obviously offensive words would make your jobs easier. It's the veiled, ambiguous, possibly offensive language that causes the most consternation!Quote: OnceDear
If we could all just not use clearly offensive words, it would make the moderators' lives so much easier.
In all seriousness, though, I have no problem with mods exercising their best judgement. I also have no problem with seemingly arbitrary judgements. I think we all know how to behave in polite society, posted rules or no. The bad actors who skate the edge of 'legality' expect (or at least should expect) to be dinged every now and then for not being polite.
Lest we forget we are all guests here -- Mike's/Zuga's house, Mike's/Zuga's rules. If some of the things said here were to be said in my house, I wouldn't hesitate to toss the perpetrators out, and wouldn't feel obliged to offer any explanation at all.
I guess what I am trying to say is: Mods, just do whatever you feel is best, and don't lose any sleep over your decisions. What's the worst outcome for a 'bad' decision? Someone can't post here for 3 (or 7, or whatever) days? Heck, taking a break from this place every now and then is probably healthy thing, even if it is forced.
At any time, but especially on major violations, moderators may consider the totality of a member's posts in sentencing. In picking random posts by CB I see a troll and bully who is constantly negative and argumentative. I will give him that he's smart and no one post, until now, has significantly crossed the line.
To be honest, I have been looking for something to get him on for a while. His post yesterday was that opportunity to get rid of him. Goodbye CB, you are nuked. I will personally take the heat on this one, although the decision was supported by the other active moderators.
This has almost nothing to do with Dave Chappelle and one word. It is about the disrespect he showed me and the collective contribution to the forum, which has been almost entirely to tear people down. I wish CB well, elsewhere.
Quote: billryanQuote: MrVQuote: gordonm888Coachbelly has been immediately suspended for a Rule 18 violation
A "Hate speech" violation, eh?
Let's dig deeper...
"Hate speech" defined: "abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.?
Where is the abuse or threat?
He was quoting what a black man said lampooning the idiocy of political correctness, and there was no abuse or threat at any point.
What ever happened to having to show bad intent?
What, we dare not utter these words, no matter what the context?
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I've no problem with that word and a few others never being said again. I can't think of a legitimate use for it.
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I would suppose you also don't have a problem with Chris Rock getting slapped for telling a joke that someone did not LIKE.
Here's the dig. Those who enforce rules inappropriately as it relates to what constitutes hate-speech are, ironically, guilty of the same: hate. In general, if you say you're not a racist, BUT because someone ELSE has WHITE skin color, you come up with a rule that people with WHITE SKIN COLOR must follow a different set of ethical principles for what THEIR RACE is allowed to say, is that FIGHTING RACISM?
If you say someone CANNOT TELL A RACIST JOKE because it touches on a TABOO SUBJECT OF RACISM, who is hateful? The person telling the joke to get laughter, or the one stifling comedy for a racist agenda?
Philosophy is hard. Understanding a sadistic bitch's intentions is harder still.
The fact is that criminal sexual sadists (those who get pleasure from exacting pain on their victims for no reason other than to enjoy the torture) are people who pretend that the rules enable them to exact pain on someone else, because they like exacting pain on someone else.
When you violate the law to do this, you become the worst kind of predator there is. A criminal sexual sadist.
Using hate LAWS to exact hate is VERY hard to fight. Those criminally sadistic bitches are difficult to reign in with all of that POWER!
The Rock It Doesn't Matter What You Think - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJpnYg4Lrrs
Quote: billryanWow. I did not see that coming. Well deserved but unexpected.
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I did not find that unexpected and welcome it.
Over the years I have only used the ignore function on two posters due to constantly trying to tear me down and he was one of them. Good riddance.
BTW, the other was EB and he left on his own so good riddance.
You and I have had lots of bitter back and forth but I never put you on ignore because I sense at least you argue sincerely and make good points even if I disagree.
Coach and EB I would find would make posts that that were intended to rankle regardless of any opinion and often done in a gotcha way.
At any rate my point is I welcome vociferous back and forth if it's sincere, because the other poster believes in their position. And not just to troll and make the forum members angry.
I applaud Wizards decision and for his taking the time to notice the pattern.
So, we make a rule that the use of those words in this forum is not allowed.
And even when those words are used as part of an (off-topic) discussion about how they are sometimes used by others, the rule must be enforced. That's my opinion.
In other words, beware who might be listening.
And what about snide remarks? Do they get a pass?
Quote: anonymousSome WWE entertainment
The Rock It Doesn't Matter What You Think - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJpnYg4Lrrs
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This guy, I heard, fought VERY HARD to protect GAY RIGHTS.
https://abc30.com/kingsburg-sex-crimes-child-brandon-howard/11894643
And yesterday, they set him free. I'm sure he'll convince some other boys that being gay is okay. I'm sure he has corrected someone for the "bad word" that is the "f-word pejorative" that we are protecting everyone from by not spelling out the letters.
But "fighting hate" in this context is just part of the manipulation game by people who VIOLATE THE LAW for PLEASURE.
<sarcasm on> Not that there is anyone here who has done that to me that still posts here <sarcasm off>
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere is no reason to justify the use of certain words and phrases on a public forum. What is acceptable in a closed meeting or in front of a known group of friends or in front of a paying audience is not always appropriate on a public forum where viewers may not understand the context of that word or phrase.
In other words, beware who might be listening.
And what about snide remarks? Do they get a pass?
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Why would you feel the need to say one thing in a group of friends but not say the same thing in public? Would it be cool if my friends and I sat around screaming anti-semitic curses at the tv every time a Jewish ballplayer comes to bat, as long as I praise him in public?
My high school's motto translates into- Do in the darkness as you would in the light. In other words- always act as if everyone is watching you. It has served me well.
Quote: Ahigh
This guy, I heard, fought VERY HARD to protect GAY RIGHTS.
https://abc30.com/kingsburg-sex-crimes-child-brandon-howard/11894643
And yesterday, they set him free. I'm sure he'll convince some other boys that being gay is okay. I'm sure he has corrected someone for the "bad word" that is the "f-word pejorative" that we are protecting everyone from by not spelling out the letters.
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This is getting very far removed from the topic at hand and I find it a violation of the rule 19. If you want to discuss that topic, take it to DT. Warning issued.
Quote: ChumpChangeMy post had no affiliation to the post above. ^^^^^ Please unquote me in your post before time expires.
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This is where I found pressing the button twice to post creates two posts. Seems like a software problem.
Quote: ChumpChangeMy post had no affiliation to the post above. ^^^^^ Please unquote me in your post before time expires.
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I did as you requested without understanding your concern. When you issue orders and I don't understand why you're doing it, that's the basis for what seems to be the "appearance of impropriety."
All I did was respond to your post and spit facts.
Quote: WizardQuote: Ahigh
This guy, I heard, fought VERY HARD to protect GAY RIGHTS.
https://abc30.com/kingsburg-sex-crimes-child-brandon-howard/11894643
And yesterday, they set him free. I'm sure he'll convince some other boys that being gay is okay. I'm sure he has corrected someone for the "bad word" that is the "f-word pejorative" that we are protecting everyone from by not spelling out the letters.
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This is getting very far removed from the topic at hand and I find it a violation of the rule 19. If you want to discuss that topic, take it to DT. Warning issued.
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Following the law and expecting admins not to use hate rules to exact hate seems reasonable to me, but I will honor your suggestion not to talk about controversial subjects involving the administrations intent to harm people using rules intended to do the opposite. Granted.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThere is no reason to justify the use of certain words and phrases on a public forum. What is acceptable in a closed meeting or in front of a known group of friends or in front of a paying audience is not always appropriate on a public forum where viewers may not understand the context of that word or phrase.
In other words, beware who might be listening.
And what about snide remarks? Do they get a pass?
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I frequent online groups that allow 13+ members. The lower the youngest age of the person in a group, the more you have to have rules about vocabulary, and the less you can reasonably expect people to follow the law.
So I get these issues of people acting childishly sadistic in ignorance.
Here, the average age is elevated, but many of the problems related to mental illness and general ineptness are the same here as the places with a younger demographic than a gambling forum.
Quote: ChumpChangeNo, you just changed the name. I meant unquote me. Get into that little editing block on your post and scrub all trace of your quote of my post that I requested. You are not responding to me in that post.
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You're right. I don't even know you.
This seems very "ad-hominem-ish." Stop pretending I have any thoughts about you. It's starting to get creepy, frankly.
Quote: billryanQuote: AlanMendelsonThere is no reason to justify the use of certain words and phrases on a public forum. What is acceptable in a closed meeting or in front of a known group of friends or in front of a paying audience is not always appropriate on a public forum where viewers may not understand the context of that word or phrase.
In other words, beware who might be listening.
And what about snide remarks? Do they get a pass?
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Why would you feel the need to say one thing in a group of friends but not say the same thing in public? Would it be cool if my friends and I sat around screaming anti-semitic curses at the tv every time a Jewish ballplayer comes to bat, as long as I praise him in public?
My high school's motto translates into- Do in the darkness as you would in the light. In other words- always act as if everyone is watching you. It has served me well.
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Keep your anti semitic remarks off public media. What you yell at the TV in your own home is your own business.
Quote: AlanMendelsonMods: what is your tolerance of snide remarks?
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Rule 12 ... No bullying/trolling: Members are expected to act like ladies and gentlemen. Members may not be overly divisive or abusive to another member.
A bit subjective, where some of us struggle to even behave like adults.
I've been suspended often enough for what might be referred to as 'snide remarks'. But it's not usually a problem here.
Every case is judged on its merits. We don't have a tape measure for assessing 'snide', and as Wizard has pointed out, a pattern of behaviour might have a bearing.
As a Brit, I might have a different tolerance to the other mods and they might will have different tolerances to each-other. We seem able to live with that inconsistency well enough.
I know the Wiz clearly said we forum members cannot post the words, but what about reposting them, when they were uttered in a non-hateful way by a popular comdedian / public figure as part of a discussion about political correctness?
Chappelle's use did not seem to constitute hate speech, at least in context, so why, I thought, would CB's reposting be considered hate speech?
Heck, Chappelle wasn't using the words toward anyone as a slur, he was (as we are) talking about whether they could ever even be uttered.
I'll move on and I do thank the mods for their efforts doing a sometimes thankless job, but I have a suggestion.
Consider changing or adding a rule making it clear that the use of certain words is strictly verboten, period, and that there is no need to show the poster intended to target someone with hate in order to constitue a violation..
Ahigh,Quote: AhighQuote: Wizard
This is getting very far removed from the topic at hand and I find it a violation of the rule 19. If you want to discuss that topic, take it to DT. Warning issued.
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Following the law and expecting admins not to use hate rules to exact hate seems reasonable to me, but I will honor your suggestion not to talk about controversial subjects involving the administrations intent to harm people using rules intended to do the opposite. Granted.
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I have no horse in this race. Or do I?
I suspect that a few of your recent posts have irritated WIzard, and he has issued a warning to that effect.
If you feel that we moderators 'use hate rules to exact hate' or if you think that admins 'intend to harm people using rules', then I will happily accept and discuss your feedback by PM or over on DT.
You may be blunt with me by PM with immunity ( for the next few days), if you feel strongly about this.
Regards,
OD
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis might help the discussion. Note what is said about public vs subscription services.
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts
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Thanks Alan,
This forum is not BROADCAST on Radio or TV, either as an open channel or as a subscription service.
No-one should assume that this forum and its moderators align their opinions with anything in that document.
This is Wizard's house. His rules. His absolute judgement.
I will read the document for my own amusement.
I use the word "unfortunate" because had someone not on the Wiz's / the moderators' "crap list" posted it the response might have been different.
I doubt it, but we'll never know.
I look at it as a ruling with an asterisk beside it.
Quote: MrVIn hindsight it is unfortunate that it was CB whose posting caused this uproar; I say that because in suspending him the Wiz seems to imply it was for things IN ADDITION to the post in question, i.e. over an accumulation of sins.
I use the word "unfortunate" because had someone not on the Wiz's / the moderators' "crap list" posted it the response might have been different.
I doubt it, but we'll never know.
I look at it as a ruling with an asterisk beside it.
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I think contribution to a forum you frequent will be important in these decisions.
I'm sure I would have just received a suspension but I have contributed fiction and trip reporting and threads that discuss advantage play techniques, etc.
Coachbelly contributed nothing but discord to this forum.
Quote: darkozQuote: MrVIn hindsight it is unfortunate that it was CB whose posting caused this uproar; I say that because in suspending him the Wiz seems to imply it was for things IN ADDITION to the post in question, i.e. over an accumulation of sins.
I use the word "unfortunate" because had someone not on the Wiz's / the moderators' "crap list" posted it the response might have been different.
I doubt it, but we'll never know.
I look at it as a ruling with an asterisk beside it.
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I think contribution to a forum you frequent will be important in these decisions.
I'm sure I would have just received a suspension but I have contributed fiction and trip reporting and threads that discuss advantage play techniques, etc.
Coachbelly contributed nothing but discord to this forum.
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Contribution is an entirely subjective evaluation, but it was acknowledged that it was an entirely subjective nuking as well I suppose. Alas, less 20 questions games now.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThis might help the discussion. Note what is said about public vs subscription services.
https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/obscene-indecent-and-profane-broadcasts
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When you are a visitor in a person's house, you don't behave in ways the host doesn't like. I used to think that was common sense, but it seems more a matter of class. If you have class, you don't need to be reminded to be on your good behavior. If you don't have it, it's never too late. It's just another habit people pick up along the way.
Quote: AlanMendelsonSometimes even negative comments are a positive contribution.
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And sometimes even hasty generalizations are correct, even as they mislead.
Quote: darkozCoachbelly contributed nothing but discord to this forum.
I can prove this wrong. His being here increased the storage needs of the server.
Indeed Alan.Quote: AlanMendelsonSometimes even negative comments are a positive contribution.
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As an employee, I had a role in customer satisfaction measuring. The absolute best feedback was constructive criticism, even where it was painful to endure. Same was true in my self employed business. Negative feedback is the stuff to focus on.
When I buy stuff on amazon or ebay, I don't read the positive reviews or feedback, I go straight to the 1* and negatives.
But when you have a non-customer that makes a vocation of giving negative reviews, that somewhat devalues the exercise.
Quote: JimRockfordReminds me of trying to watch a college basketball game covered by Bill Walton.
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If you’ve never seen Bill Walton announce a game: He has a lot to say. You’re never certain what he’s talking about, but you can be sure it has little to do with basketball.
𝙙𝙤 𝙣𝙤𝙩 𝙜𝙤 𝙜𝙚𝙣𝙩𝙡𝙚 𝙞𝙣𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙖𝙩 𝙜𝙤𝙤𝙙 𝙣𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩
𝙧𝙖𝙜𝙚, 𝙧𝙖𝙜𝙚 𝙖𝙜𝙖𝙞𝙣𝙨𝙩 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙙𝙮𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙤𝙛 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙡𝙞𝙜𝙝𝙩
.
Perhaps it is for the best as all my friends but one left a while ago. I'm stubborn and thought the place still was worth sticking around for.
I'm leaving.
Not by my choice but by decree. I'll leave you with this great piece of literature.
"I don't know half of you as well as I would like, and I like half of you as well as you deserve. I'm going. Goodbye"
Quote: billryan"I don't know half of you as well as I would like, and I like half of you as well as you deserve. I'm going. Goodbye"
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Bilbo Baggins?
Quote: billryanI've been told my presence here is no longer desired. It seems Mr. Wizard thinks I am defecating on his kitchen table. I disagree but I was raised correctly. If the host doesn't want me around, all he had to do is ask. Making up mental gymnastics that my posts are all meant to be subtle digs at him is wrong, but it's his bat.
Perhaps it is for the best as all my friends but one left a while ago. I'm stubborn and thought the place still was worth sticking around for.
I'm leaving.
Not by my choice but by decree. I'll leave you with this great piece of literature.
"I don't know half of you as well as I would like, and I like half of you as well as you deserve. I'm going. Goodbye"
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Resignation accepted. I'm going to file it as indefinite, which means you're welcome back, upon request, after 30 days.
I gave Bill a warning that his sarcasm, especially with the "I have come to a decision" thread, was not appreciated and to tone it down for a while. Bill is a smart guy who respects the mathematics of gambling. He contributed a lot to the forum. However, common courtesy goes a long way with me and I found that to be lacking in his behavior of late.
A cooling off period between him and I is called for, at the least. Again, you're welcome back anytime after 30 days. I wish you well.
All I see is that he broke the rules here and Gordon suspended him. I've relayed my suggested term to gordon to decide.
I hope that AhIgh is a bit less angry when he returns, and I restate my willingness to give an ear to any negative feedback he might wish to give by PM.
Quote: OnceDearWell, folks, I don't quite follow what Ahigh was trying to say, but then I'm a foreigner and I don't know what your US constitution says about freedom of expression.
All I see is that he broke the rules here and Gordon suspended him. I've relayed my suggested term to gordon to decide.
I hope that AhIgh is a bit less angry when he returns, and I restate my willingness to give an ear to any negative feedback he might wish to give by PM.
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Us Americans don't understand what he was saying either.
At least not me.
That principle has always served me well, at least when there is time enough beforehand.
Quote: rxwineSomewhere around the age of 7 or so, I came to the conclusion that before I did something that might have unpleasant consequences, I should consider whether I was willing to risk it or not. And even better, consider worst case scenario. Sometimes I still did it, and sometimes I didn't.
That principle has always served me well, at least when there is time enough beforehand.
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I agree and think I apply that daily to all aspects of my life. I will accept the consequences for every action that I perform.
Don't worry OnceDear, you're not alone. Most Americans have no idea what the US Constitution says about freedom of expression either.Quote: OnceDearWell, folks, I don't quite follow what Ahigh was trying to say, but then I'm a foreigner and I don't know what your US constitution says about freedom of expression. link to original post
I think he was trying to make a point. But, for the life of me, my feeble reading comprehension and logic skills could not help me decipher what that point was.Quote: OnceDearWell, folks, I don't quite follow what Ahigh was trying to say
Personally, I have never sat down and read the entire US Constitution, but I'm pretty sure there is an amendment to it that prohibits congress from passing laws that would, among other things, abridge people's freedoms of speech. I don't think the US Constitution explicitly addresses "freedom of expression," but it does provide for a body of jurists that can decide if it implicitly protects that freedom or not.Quote:but then I'm a foreigner and I don't know what your US constitution says about freedom of expression.
Quote: AlanMendelsonAnd what about snide remarks? Do they get a pass?
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I was over at a coworker's house a while back. His daughter made some snide remark, then asked
"Dad, did I do sarcasm?"
"No sweetie, that wasn't sarcasm - that was just mean."
There is probably some multivariant comparison involving radar chart plots that we should be using to formally evaluate snark.
In practice, it shouldn't just be mean; there needs to be some other redeeming value.
Yes, this is an unfortunate Potter Stewart standard.
An "X Factor" is by nature hard to quantify.
This is just my personal opinion.
Quote: JoemanI think he was trying to make a point. But, for the life of me, my feeble reading comprehension and logic skills could not help me decipher what that point was.Quote: OnceDearWell, folks, I don't quite follow what Ahigh was trying to say
Personally, I have never sat down and read the entire US Constitution, but I'm pretty sure there is an amendment to it that prohibits congress from passing laws that would, among other things, abridge people's freedoms of speech. I don't think the US Constitution explicitly addresses "freedom of expression," but it does provide for a body of jurists that can decide if it implicitly protects that freedom or not.Quote:but then I'm a foreigner and I don't know what your US constitution says about freedom of expression.
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It's actually the VERY FIRST amendment written and was considered the most important by the original creators. The first five amendments if I remember correctly are the original.
What law scholars will correct the average person on is that freedom of speech does not mean ANYWHERE from ANYONE.
It's specifically addressing freedom of speech from the government. The government cannot enforce restrictions on speech.
Private companies (this website for example) can restrict what they want people to say in their place of business. Schools and even parents regularly restrict what can be spoken. Places of business have codes. Etc.
Also, there are safely restrictions as everyone should know like screaming fire in a crowded theater is not a protected freedom of speech.
