Discussion II about the Suspension List
Quote: QFITWell, just today I have been falsely accused three times based on zero evidence, and a suggestion has been made that I have a "histrionic personality disorder". And, your count is incorrect. I made a few contributions on another thread that could in no way be considered anything but contributions on blackjack, and was attacked twice. Why on Earth would I contribute to a forum like this when I can discuss AP at forums that don't thrive on personal attacks? If this is how you think you should go about convincing people to contribute here, you are sadly mistaken. When someone bites your hand, the temptation to feed them quickly evaporates.
I'm sorry; I expected you to follow along with my train of thought from earlier; "36 Posts" refers to the comment earlier today that you have made no contributions to this forum in any thread besides this one since late February...36 in a row right here...
Several of us offered our opinions and told you that you have the opportunity to change them, prove us wrong., move past this whole thing...whatever...by simply posting "normal" posts in other threads.
Is there another person here who is gong to attack you on AP play? Disagree perhaps; but that is about it. The person who "bit your hand" has been eliminated. It seems simple to me...post stuff and see what happens. You are simply worrying too much about a few of us and not interacting with the whole of the forum. A lot of them probably don't know or care about the whole thing we are discussing here.
I repeat, "Kentry, you need to work with me here" from the famous 1BB quotes.Quote: QFITWell, just today I have been falsely accused three times based on zero evidence, and a suggestion has been made that I have a "histrionic personality disorder". And, your count is incorrect. I made a few contributions on another thread that could in no way be considered anything but contributions on blackjack, and was attacked twice. Why on Earth would I contribute to a forum like this when I can discuss AP at forums that don't thrive on personal attacks? If this is how you think you should go about convincing people to contribute here, you are sadly mistaken. When someone bites your hand, the temptation to feed them quickly evaporates.
I don't know what else to say.
Maybe, 'Thx for the opportunity to read along here', not to mention that the 'village idiot' can throw in a bad joke now and then.... Just 2F
Quote: Wizard
I'll also put out there that I am open minded about reinstating Kewlj if you two come to some kind of true peace and I can trust the two of you to play nicely together here.
QFIT,
Yes, that. Please.
Quote: QFITI have never made a personal attack against KJ and there is no "feud". He can stop the attacks he's been making against four people, now spread by him to a fifth forum, anytime he wishes. My only intent was to stop a forum war and attacks against multiple people.
If they are not Members here, then they are not protected by the Personal Insult Rule or any other. If you guys can make a truce, we're good. If they do not want KewlJ to, 'Attack,' them, then the easiest way for that to happen is for them to make accounts here themselves.
Maybe start off clean. All six of you in a thread, spirited Debate, no insults, no accusations. Pure focus on the subject matter.
If I may be so bold, if you had any idea of 20% of what I have going on right now, you think I'd be ready to snap on someone in a heartbeat. Yet, both on here and in my day-to-day life, I'm one of the calmer and more genial people you will ever meet to those who are not complete idiots. (Real-Life idiots, that is, I don't think anyone here is an idiot.)
I have personally known Norm since 1996 (he probably doesn't recall our first e-mail exchange). In all that time, he has been a gentleman. I say that even in the shadow of forum battles he and I had back in the early 2000's. I have to say that Norm has been extraordinarily restrained here, given that almost no one has come to his defense.
I thought the "histrionic" remark was intended to apply to the other party; the one who was more socially popular with some in the trailer park because he was already here. If not, it certainly should be. Hasn't he issued separate unrelated threats to leave twice recently? If he's back, I request it be with a special avatar so people who aren't part of the jr. high social club in the tree fort will have fair warning of what up:
And in general, ordering a large supply of those might be a good idea.
Quote: DrawingDead^Thank you.
I thought the "histrionic" remark was intended to apply to the other party; the one who was more socially popular with some in the trailer park because he was already here. If not, it certainly should be.
"The sea's in my veins, my tradition remains
I'm just glad I don't live in a trailer"
--Jimmy Buffett
I lived in a trailer once...do you have to put me in a park now, too?
jk (of course)...but I did like Kewlj...
I found him to be a likeable fellow as well. More so than ME by far. Even my own mum would prolly agree if she was around to say so. But...Quote: RonCjk (of course)...but I did like Kewlj...
People: QFIT, you came here just to get kewlj banned off this forum?
QFIT: I'd do no such thing. I'm here to talk about AP.
*people are suspicious*
*a good amount of time passes*
People: QFIT, you said you came here to talk about AP and you weren't trying to get kewlj banned.
QFIT: That's right.
People: How come you haven't been talking about AP stuff, then? Actually, you've almost only exclusively talked about KJ or KJ related stuff.
QFIT: I don't talk about KJ because he's banned and can't respond. I've been told not to defend myself or else I'll be banned....plus people don't seem to like me here.
*people still suspicious*
I am not suspicious. Norm was attacked here by KJ (after being attacked at numerous other sites), so he came here to defend himself. As others here continue to attack him here, he comes back here to defend himself. I get that. This community would be hard pressed to find anyone with as much analytic skill in the game of blackjack as Norm. Not Michael, not me, not George C., not Don S., not anyone. His contributions are extraordinary and much of it is freely given away. I don't know anything that KJ has contributed other than his entertaining stories and delightful personality.Quote: RS*people still suspicious*
I am sure if Norm ceased to be attacked, he would cease to defend.
Quote: teliot. I don't know anything that KJ has contributed other than his entertaining stories and delightful personality.
Then you haven't read enough here. He gave lots of good advice to potential new APs. He posted about many topics, the election being the most recent one. I wholeheartedly agree with his suspension, but he was in my opinion the most valuable member of the forum, engaged in quite a variety of subjects.
I do block a lot of threads. Mainly when the noise to signal ratio goes above my exceedingly low threshold. But others, just by virtue of the nature of the subject matter. As to KJ's value here, well, I'd speculate that Mike is more valuable. As for the content KJ provided, the ratio (Quality Content)/(Overall Content) is worth considering.Quote: SOOPOOThen you haven't read enough here.
Quote: teliotI do block a lot of threads. Mainly when the noise to signal ratio goes above my exceedingly low threshold. But others, just by virtue of the nature of the subject matter. As to KJ's value here, well, I'd speculate that Mike is more valuable.
It is tough to define valuable. Mike will always be the most valuable, even if he doesn't post, because without him this forum would not have come to be. Before the QFIT/KEWLJ dust up, KEWLJ was far more active and interesting and informative than Mike in a great variety of forums. Like you, Mike seems to steer clear of a great many of the threads.
It would not be hard to argue that you are amongst the most valuable posters as well. Every time I get a link to your website I never regret going there. But I think your evaluation of the QFIT/KEWLJ stuff is biased due to your long standing friendship with Norm. I have no relationship with either. Norm may be way more valuable to 'the BJ community', but KJ was way more valuable to the WoV community.
By the way, thanks for your website.
Point granted. I am not much of a community type person.Quote: SOOPOONorm may be way more valuable to 'the BJ community', but KJ was way more valuable to the WoV community.
Quote: teliot
I am sure if Norm ceased to be attacked, he would cease to defend.
I think it is a chicken or the egg kind of scenario here. If all he does is talk about KewlJ and the feuds on the other forums brought here (which many of us like myself never knew existed in the first place) he confirms our suspicions. You and Mike as respected members here have vouched for Norm's vast knowledge on the game of blackjack, and I, like most people I would assume, are willing to give him a chance provided he actually attempts to impart some of his knowledge of the game with us. Personally, I don't care about this junior high B.S. type feud. If he has something valuable to contribute, he should do so. I come here, knowing my skills at cards are vastly inferior to most on this board, but I come here knowing that some valuable information can come my way if I just listen to er read what others have to say. If he is as valuable as you and Mike say, let him prove it. Will some hold onto grudges? Perhaps. But then it will be those who reveal their true character, or lack thereof
Who suggested YOU had HPD? CERTAINLY NOT ME! I was not even referring to you in my post. Why did you jump to that conclusion? I'm starting to understand a bit more why this feud started.Quote: QFITWell, just today I have been falsely accused three times based on zero evidence, and a suggestion has been made that I have a "histrionic personality disorder". And, your count is incorrect. I made a few contributions on another thread that could in no way be considered anything but contributions on blackjack, and was attacked twice. Why on Earth would I contribute to a forum like this when I can discuss AP at forums that don't thrive on personal attacks? If this is how you think you should go about convincing people to contribute here, you are sadly mistaken. When someone bites your hand, the temptation to feed them quickly evaporates.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSomeone owes Ontario dealer three days.
Sure enough, he is now unbanned.
Quote: teliotI do block a lot of threads. Mainly when the noise to signal ratio goes above my exceedingly low threshold. But others, just by virtue of the nature of the subject matter. As to KJ's value here, well, I'd speculate that Mike is more valuable. As for the content KJ provided, the ratio (Quality Content)/(Overall Content) is worth considering.
Agreed. KewlJ's signal-to-noise ratio was really high here. I don't know all the details behind his banning however. mickeycrimm's signal-to-noise was also high when he posted sober.
Let's not drag the chickens into this drama...Quote: Gabes22I think it is a chicken
The Wizard just gave him a warning
Quote: TwoFeathersATL
Maybe Wiz was in a bad mood? Happens to the best, of the best, of us. I volunteer to serve 1/2 of the days, if that is still allowed. I know, odd number. How about 3 of the 4 days? I like to read Bluejay input, more than I like to read mine, even if I find him offensive and uppity, on occasion. He's pretty good with sentence structure and punctuation. OK, maybe that wasn't the best argument. Still, I'd be happy to serve half the sentence (leaving town for a couple days, so what the hell). If BlueJ is a bad guy, he'll reveal himself that much quicker, then you can hit him on the head with a hammer (video pls). Just saying...
Quote from Mission146
"I couldn't go four more days without you here, I'm probably the biggest fan of your posts on this Board. I may, perhaps, be one of the only ones who always understands what you are saying."
Reply from 2F
Aw shucks...blushes
Didn't know I had a fan, but if I do, they prolly qualify as the biggest fan.
You could start a fan club, prolly run uncontested as the grand poobah or sumptin'.
As to always understanding what I am saying, that's scary.
Some is written in code only meant to be understood by particular recipient(s).
I will have to be more careful ;-). Just 2F
<edit> What does that have to do with chickens anyway? Or Buzzards? Or turkeys, or turkey buzzards?
If you try to set aside abstract rules and think about it pragmatically, that's a highly undesirable outcome.
From what I can gather, and I could easily be wrong, KJ's criticisms were pretty legitimate, if a bit obsessive and ultimately fueled by some acrimony. I think every area of gambling is full of people dishing out bad or impractical advice. Often, such people have the ultimate aim of selling their advice, or profiting in some other questionable way, at which point it approaches a scam.
It is very common for experienced parties to call out such practices with a lot of vitriol (usually, far more than KJ has shown). And it is a common view that the bad advisers should never be accommodated. For example, many resent fraudulent sports betting touts (i.e. 99.9% of them) being given a platform by journalists and talk show hosts like Colin Cowherd, even though he is not personally selling picks and might be a good talk show host. Many resent ESPN covering poker players who are known with total certainty to be con artists. Maybe they are decent at poker or entertaining, and ESPN is not participating in any con directly, but when Chino Rheem is on TV, it makes it way easier for him to rip people off.
If KJ attempted to smear Norm as a pedo or something, then perhaps that would be a line where it just didn't matter how much of a contribution he made. But, the only such behavior I saw came the other way, with the insinuations of antisemitism and hate mongering.
Quote: DrawingDead^Thank you.
I thought the "histrionic" remark was intended to apply to the other party; the one who was more socially popular with some in the trailer park because he was already here.
One of the main functions of this, or any other forum is social. Of course people are disposed to favor a poster who is entertaining and kind.
Will I stop posting here? No. But I'll post less, since I sometimes posted in response to KJ and I'll read it less since he was one of my favorite posters and I can't read posts he doesn't make.
Given your comparison to "fraudulent sports touts", "con artists", etc.; It appears his false accusations worked. This is exactly why such false accusations should be halted in their tracks.
I wasn't comparing you to the touts. My understanding of KJ's complaint was that you allowed people giving bad advice too much leeway on your forum. And, I THINK I remember him saying that some of them were trying to profit off it, but I can't find that now.
But everyone says you've done a lot of great work yourself and I don't doubt it. So you would be ESPN in this scenario, at least in KJs mind. And I think he was being earnest.
Ultimately, it doesn't matter all that much. For a non-poster to come to a forum and get a valuable regular banned strikes me as crazy. Even if KJ was wrong. And I don't know that he was right. But I don't think he was doing anything truly reprehensible or criminal. So, given that he was a cornerstone of this place and you are not part of it at all, and are evidently a public figure, it shouldn't matter all that much in my view.
Since you are a public figure and don't post here anyway, I don't care if he criticizes your site, as long as he is not doing something like, say, spreading information about your personal life or slandering you.
I believe all of the people who say you are great at what you do, and maybe you are also a wonderful person. But KJ is a good guy and I, and many others, found his content to be one of the more attractive things about this site.
If there is another forum (not owned by you) and you do a bunch of great stuff there, and KJ shows up, never having contributed, and your feud erupts and you wind up getting banned, I also think that would be a terrible outcome for that forum.
What you are missing is that KJ did indeed slander multiple people here and elsewhere for months. People that were just posters posting their opinions elsewhere. He didn't just say they were incorrect in his opinion, he falsely accused them of defrauding innocent people. I watched this for months. When I gathered it would never end, I stepped in.
I'm old and feeble minded so my memory is suspect. However, I do not recall KewlJ slandering multiple people here. I did read his posts, unless some were removed, pretty much as he posted them. Claiming he did if he didn't, would you consider that slanderous on your part? How is your memory working? Could it be that you participate in one too many forums? To the extent that you don't remember exactly what was written where? Just 2FQuote: QFITAgain, there is no feud. Never has been.
What you are missing is that KJ did indeed slander multiple people here and elsewhere for months. People that were just posters posting their opinions elsewhere. He didn't just say they were incorrect in his opinion, he falsely accused them of defrauding innocent people. I watched this for months. When I gathered it would never end, I stepped in.
Slander is legally actionable. Did you take legal action? If not, why not?Quote: QFITWhat you are missing is that KJ did indeed slander multiple people here and elsewhere for months. People that were just posters posting their opinions elsewhere. He didn't just say they were incorrect in his opinion, he falsely accused them of defrauding innocent people. I watched this for months. When I gathered it would never end, I stepped in.
To the point raised by Gabes22, if the sole purpose of your participation on this forum is to refute objectionable statements made by a former member, and that member is no longer posting here, then why are you?
Because several people continue to start this up again by repeating false accusations. Why not ask them why they do this? In general, these suspension list threads appear to be some sort of recreational bashing threads.
My post was in response to your post, above. I did not like your post, so I responded. If you stop posting posts I don't like, I will no longer feel a need to respond to them. 2FQuote: QFITIt takes five years and massive funds to sue for slander in the U.S. The U.K. is much easier. Besides, I have never been sued or sued and hope to be able to say that on my death bed. Court is a place of absolute last resort.
Because several people continue to start this up again by repeating false accusations. Why not ask them why they do this? In general, these suspension list threads appear to be some sort of recreational bashing threads.
No it doesn't. It doesn't even take five years for most IP lawsuits and I've taken part in dozens. The real issue is that even if you were slandered -- and I don't care to dig into the details of the perceived defamation -- no competent attorney would ever advise you to litigate if you don't have meaningful damages to recover. Being strongly affronted doesn't count. Even if someone had accused you of having syphilis (falsely accusing another of having a loathsome disease gives rise to per se liability for defamation), you'd still need to quantify your damages. What damages do you have that stem from KewlJ's alleged defamation of you?Quote: QFITIt takes five years and massive funds to sue for slander in the U.S.
If you don't have any, why are you bothering to defend yourself?
And? My kids learned to ignore bullies in grade school. If you feel compelled to answer every single one of your anonymous Internet detractors every single time, you're going to be very busy justifying your positions on Internet forums. Far be it from me to suggest how you spend your time, but you've only got a finite amount of it.Quote: QFITIf people stop attacking, I'll stop defending. Seriously guys, this stops for a month or so, and then someone decides to mount another unprovoked attack without me saying or doing anything.
And for the 21st time, this involves multiple people. People here never seem to read what they're responding to.
Perhaps those attackers, I hope you are not including me as one, are just simply unhappy with the current state of affairs here and wanted the rest of us to know that fact? And somehow that unhappiness includes you? I'm just guessing. I seem to remember that the Wizard opened a door that the parties could walk thru if they wanted, and thus put all this behind all of us. The world would be nicer if everyone could just un-wad their panties and move forward.Quote: QFITIf people stop attacking, I'll stop defending. Seriously guys, this stops for a month or so, and then someone decides to mount another unprovoked attack without me saying or doing anything.
Apparently there was some behind the scenes truce that took place, something that Mike arbitrated?Quote: QFITIt takes five years and massive funds to sue for slander in the U.S. The U.K. is much easier. Besides, I have never been sued or sued and hope to be able to say that on my death bed. Court is a place of absolute last resort.
Because several people continue to start this up again by repeating false accusations. Why not ask them why they do this? In general, these suspension list threads appear to be some sort of recreational bashing threads.
I'm wondering how that all came about? I wouldn't think JK himself went to Mike. It sounds as if KJ never really wanted to call a truce. Perhaps he did it out of respect for Mike. That would suck if his respect for Mike is why he made a truce that ultimately allowed him to get banned after breaking it.
It sounds as if someone like yourself asked or highly suggested that Mike to step in.
Did you ever suggest to anyone any legal action may or could take place regarding any of this?
It just seems odd Mike got involved unless he felt pressured himself. If you thought It takes five years and massive funds to sue for slander in the U.S. Perhaps you though it would be easiest to go after any website that allowed KJ to supposedly slander you.
Did you ever ask or suggest to anyone that any of KJ's posts be edited or removed.
PS. I'm still wondering "Who suggested YOU had HPD? CERTAINLY NOT ME! I was not even referring to you in my post. Why did you jump to that conclusion? I'm starting to understand a bit more why this feud started."
Or did you just jump to conclusions and make a mistake and not feel the need to comment on your error ?
And, there is no feud. Never was one. Period.
Let me show you how to end an argument on the Internet. Repeat after me:Quote: QFITHilarious. Far be it from me to suggest how YOU spend YOUR time, but you've only got a finite amount of it.
QFIT Has the right to come here and defend himself. Wouldn't you?Quote: RigondeauxI've tried to absorb this as I am a KewlJ fan, but not a BJ guy and barely know who Norm is. It's pretty amazing that some guy could just roll into a forum he doesn't post on and get a valuable contributor who has positive relationships and a huge investment in time banned, then just roll back out
If you try to set aside abstract rules and think about it pragmatically, that's a highly undesirable outcome.
From what I can gather, and I could easily be wrong, KJ's criticisms were pretty legitimate, if a bit obsessive and ultimately fueled by some acrimony. I think every area of gambling is full of people dishing out bad or impractical advice. Often, such people have the ultimate aim of selling their advice, or profiting in some other questionable way, at which point it approaches a scam.
It is very common for experienced parties to call out such practices with a lot of vitriol (usually, far more than KJ has shown). And it is a common view that the bad advisers should never be accommodated. For example, many resent fraudulent sports betting touts (i.e. 99.9% of them) being given a platform by journalists and talk show hosts like Colin Cowherd, even though he is not personally selling picks and might be a good talk show host. Many resent ESPN covering poker players who are known with total certainty to be con artists. Maybe they are decent at poker or entertaining, and ESPN is not participating in any con directly, but when Chino Rheem is on TV, it makes it way easier for him to rip people off.
If KJ attempted to smear Norm as a pedo or something, then perhaps that would be a line where it just didn't matter how much of a contribution he made. But, the only such behavior I saw came the other way, with the insinuations of antisemitism and hate mongering.
One of the main functions of this, or any other forum is social. Of course people are disposed to favor a poster who is entertaining and kind.
Will I stop posting here? No. But I'll post less, since I sometimes posted in response to KJ and I'll read it less since he was one of my favorite posters and I can't read posts he doesn't make.
IMO it's done more damage than good.
People are probably illegally & purposely downloading his software as we speak.
Dam it!! That was my next question. Way to get ahead of the story.Quote: QFITWhat next, I threatened to off someone or called in the Mafia?
.
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When did I invent something? I was just asking questions, I wasn't the one who brought up all the legal stuff. You just sounded as if you may have looked into it.
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Are you suggesting many of us have corrupt minds?(We love you to). I rarely participate in that thread.
I just check occasionally to see who's making up stuff.
PS. You have yet you answer my last PS.
The liberal/slander/defamation laws in the U.S. make such legal actions extraordinarily difficult for public personas to pursue successfully. Even a well-known authority in a small field, not to mention a prominent owner of an important Web site, could be classified as a public personage and would have to show, among other requirements, intentional malice. That is one of the big reasons why Donald Trump advocates so strongly for British-style libel procedures and modifying the First Amendment to our Constitution.Quote: QFITIt takes five years and massive funds to sue for slander in the U.S.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLPerhaps those attackers, I hope you are not including me as one, are just simply unhappy with the current state of affairs here and wanted the rest of us to know that fact? And somehow that unhappiness includes you? I'm just guessing. I seem to remember that the Wizard opened a door that the parties could walk thru if they wanted, and thus put all this behind all of us. The world would be nicer if everyone could just un-wad their panties and move forward.
I did not personally attack him either. Haven't made a concrete assertion about the guy yet. Just characterized KJ's beef as I understood it while, being very careful to say stuff like "I could easily be wrong, but..." every other sentence.
I did say that the antisemitism thing seemed like a low blow to me. Still does. Maybe I'm wrong about that too. If that's a personal attack, then so it is.
He has yet to answer several serious questions I asked. Maybe he has me blocked like EB, maybe he is EB ;-)Quote: AxelWolfDam it!! That was my next question. Way to get ahead of the story.
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When did I invent something? I was just asking questions, I wasn't the one who brought up all the legal stuff. You just sounded as if you may have looked into it.
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Are you suggesting many of us have corrupt minds?(We love you to). I rarely participate in that thread.
I just check occasionally to see who's making up stuff.
PS. You have yet you answer my last PS.
Quote: QFITGood Lord. Of course I never threatened or slightly suggested legal action of any kind. You guys just keep inventing more and more paranoid nonsense based on ZERO evidence of any kind. Is the politics forum here corrupting your minds? I'm sure Mike would say this didn't happen. But, what's the point? You guys just believe what you want no matter if all parties involved say it didn't happen. What next, I threatened to off someone or called in the Mafia?
And, there is no feud. Never was one. Period.
Hmm, QFIT has twice said he is never posting on this thread again??????????????
WTF
Quote: Rigondeaux
I did say that the antisemitism thing seemed like a low blow to me. Still does. Maybe I'm wrong about that too. If that's a personal attack, then so it is.
Its a real low blow
Its an insult
Its like calling DT an anti Muslim site due to a few haters and then berating the Wiz for posting there
