Discussion II about the Suspension List
personally I didn't like that rule, but nowadays I don't think it matters where or how it started.
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NVM that this involves KJ.
Lets say it's someone like B79.
If someone was going around spreading serious lies about you(perhaps calling you a rapists or something terrible) and relaying your personal information. All after making some type of agreement.
There has to be some kind of a line.
Quote: AxelWolfThe always had that rule in school that if it started on school grounds....
personally I didn't like that rule, but nowadays I don't think it matters where or how it started.
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NVM that this involves KJ.
Lets say it's someone like B79.
If someone was going around spreading serious lies about you(perhaps calling you a rapists or something terrible) and relaying your personal information. All after making some type of agreement.
There has to be some kind of a line.
I do not know what "personal information" was given but it appears both were calling each other bad things all over the place. I haven't read "all" of it (I actually hope that no one has...too much crap to read) but both of them appear to have been posting nasty stuff.
It's a shame that Wizard did not realize this and allowed it to run it's course, resulting in the loss of the best member here.
Congrats Norm. You win.
Quote: HowManyWell, it appears Norm accomplished his mission- KJ nuked. Indeed, Norm didn't give a damn about WoV. He showed up here with an agenda.
It's a shame that Wizard did not realize this and allowed it to run it's course, resulting in the loss of the best member here.
Congrats Norm. You win.
I feel obligated to mention that Norm did come here with that BJ weather page he had made. That is the thread where he and KJ started getting in to it on WOV.
I'm not saying he didn't have an agenda; I don't know. He certainly doesn't have an extensive history of posting here. But one could make the argument he was just sharing something he had created with the board.
If we're counting content on other sites/private messages, you must ban Norm. He started a thread called "RollingStoned" to discuss what we're discussing here, in which the entire time bringing up and bashing KewlJ even though he's banned on that site and can't respond anyways. A clear attack/dig at someone who can't even voice an opinion back. Then, when he realized how bad he looked in that thread, HE HID THE THREAD IN A PRIVATE SECTION... and now it appears to have been deleted even from this "private" section.
I'm trying not to advocate one way or another, but if you're going to count other messages/sites, it's 100% clear that Norm needs banned too. Otherwise, you're just playing favorites.
Big J, Big H, Big I, and a very big T!
I have a ranking (big spreadsheet) of the contributors to this site.
kewlJ came in at 10%.
Interestingly enuf 1BB came in at 10% also, tied with the Wiz himself.
The Wiz, though tied in contribution with 2 above stands in another 'class', the 'made the forums available class', where there is only one entry, uncontested. Like a credit card commercial, that one is "priceless".
I've been out of town and busy for a couple of days, read thru 3 pages of 'recent posts' this morning trying to ketchup(?). First time I remember going past page 2 of recents to 'ketchup'. I didn't see any KewlJ posts, did I miss something? Wouldn't be the first time....
I'm here, fresh back from volunteering to serve Terapined's suspension so he could talk about golf. Golf? Really? Eff me again! I'm not going anywhere till they drag me away, better be a couple of 'em, but I have/was already missing KJ. I wish him well, plus a little more.
1. I have never asked Mike to suspend anyone, and was quite surprised when this happened.
2. I have never asked Mike to nuke anyone.
3. I have never used the PM function here.
4. I did ask Mike to remove posts which contained personal attacks against multiple people falsely accusing them of having an agenda to purposely mislead new players for profit. These posts have been made by one person on four sites scores of times for, now, seven months.
5. The statement that I pulled some "we're both site owners and have done some work together in the past; do me a solid" is quite ridiculous.
6. I responded to RS on BJTF to a post he made here because I was suspended here and could not respond directly. I removed the thread once the discussion was done because of a complaint by Romes.
7. The word “feud” suggests acts of revenge. I am not taking part in a feud. OTOH, the other party posted elsewhere, and e-mailed me, that he will be continuing this: “for the next 50 years. Long after Norman is dead and gone”
8. My only “agenda” here was to stop what appeared to be attempts to start a forum war.
9. I made posts on BJTF, BJ21, and WoV pointing to a new, free and ad-free resource for which I get no income. It should help CBJN, which coincidentally was just purchased by the owner of this site. For some reason, I was attacked three times when posting it here. I now know better and will no longer post info on free resources here.
I have been saying for over a decade that the casinos are the opponent. It is important that we keep this in mind. Attacking each other only helps the casinos.
Are you stating you did not message Mike 19 times about the situation? I have it on good authority that you did... and unfortunately we're not allowed to discuss PM's so we're left to well, speculate, what was discussed. Logically we'll have to go off past experiences and behaviors (such as the RollingStoned thread), which would lead me to believe those 19 messages were demeaning towards kewlj on some level... and if KewlJ was nuked for "private messages" that were demeaning, I would expect the same be held for anyone, regardless of anything else.
Norm, for the record, I have absolutely zero personal qualms with you. Both you and KewlJ have this ability to get under each others skin to the point where neither of you act respectable anymore. I, like many others, tried to ignore it for some time, but when it's drug out over multiple forums and repeatedly beaten like a dead horse then eventually you're going to have people say "Fine, you want my opinion? Here it is..." which I suppose is more of what I'm doing now. Do I think you're to blame? Yes. Do I think KewlJ is to blame? Yes. You both push each others buttons and do so much against one another that there is no one right/wrong person at this point, in my opinion. Thus, you should both be banned from WoV if KewlJ is to be banned. Your content, if you're concerned with that, will of course be spread to multiple forums after release on your site, and if you truly are "for the players" and want to be "the bigger man" then you won't care whatsoever if it gets re-posted on multiple other sites like we all know it will. Problem solved.
“I don't understand why you made a long post asking me questions on a forum where I cannot respond. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you stated. The question you asked is an example of a logical fallacy called a loaded question as the phrasing includes a false premise. It's like asking, ‘When did you stop beating your wife’.”
Your statement that anyone on BJTF that doesn't endorse the "level 3 count or you're not a real counter mentality is attacked by 3 prominent members” is patently absurd. I have NEVER endorsed a level 3 count in my life for anyone. I usually suggest KO or HiLo and have even suggested basic strategy for casual players. Indeed I have an article on that. It is these gross exaggerations that keep stirring the pot. There are, of course, opinions stated with which I don't agree. I do not censor opinions. I censor personal attacks. What good is a discussion forum where everyone thinks alike?
In case this wasn’t clear in my previous post,
1. I have never asked Mike to suspend anyone, and was quite surprised when this happened.
2. I have never asked Mike to nuke anyone.
3. I have never used the PM function here.
I’m really getting tired of people repeating outright fabrications and rank speculation. I know people here have been inundated for months with the same false narrative, and you speak of it as if it is all true. It isn't. For more detail, reread my last post.
You still post here, And that is a good thing.Quote: QFITForgive me Romes, but I think you have this backwards. I was under suspension here when RS made a post with several statements asking me questions. Unable to respond here, I responded on BJTF where he is a frequent poster. It was I that was under attack while under suspension. My response was:
“I don't understand why you made a long post asking me questions on a forum where I cannot respond. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you stated. The question you asked is an example of a logical fallacy called a loaded question as the phrasing includes a false premise. It's like asking, ‘When did you stop beating your wife’.”
Your statement that anyone on BJTF that doesn't endorse the "level 3 count or you're not a real counter mentality is attacked by 3 prominent members” is patently absurd. I have NEVER endorsed a level 3 count in my life for anyone. I usually suggest KO or HiLo and have even suggested basic strategy for casual players. Indeed I have an article on that. It is these gross exaggerations that keep stirring the pot. There are, of course, opinions stated with which I don't agree. I do not censor opinions. I censor personal attacks. What good is a discussion forum where everyone thinks alike?
In case this wasn’t clear in my previous post,
1. I have never asked Mike to suspend anyone, and was quite surprised when this happened.
2. I have never asked Mike to nuke anyone.
3. I have never used the PM function here.
I’m really getting tired of people repeating outright fabrications and rank speculation. I know people here have been inundated for months with the same false narrative, and you speak of it as if it is all true. It isn't. For more detail, reread my last post.
KJ apparently cannot post here any longer, and that is a bad thing, a bad thing that outweighs your good thing. Just IMO, just 2F. You don't like it, talk to the boss.
Quote: TwoFeathersATLYou still post here, And that is a good thing.
KJ apparently cannot post here any longer, and that is a bad thing, a bad thing that outweighs your good thing. Just IMO, just 2F. You don't like it, talk to the boss.
What's to talk about? People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts.
KJ gone. Forever.
1BB gone. Forever.
Norm still here.
Yep. I'm outta here. Go ahead and nuke me Wizard. Farewell.
I believe that I had my facts correct in my post, I have reviewed them and I find no errors. Feel free to point out where I went astray. You still get to post here.Quote: QFITWhat's to talk about? People are entitled to their own opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts.
Quote: QFITI’ve been reading these posts for the last few hours nodding my head at all the speculation. Those that know me well know that I dislike speculation, particularly when it comes to another’s motivations. Let me clarify a few points:
1. I have never asked Mike to suspend anyone, and was quite surprised when this happened.
2. I have never asked Mike to nuke anyone.
3. I have never used the PM function here.
4. I did ask Mike to remove posts which contained personal attacks against multiple people falsely accusing them of having an agenda to purposely mislead new players for profit. These posts have been made by one person on four sites scores of times for, now, seven months.
5. The statement that I pulled some "we're both site owners and have done some work together in the past; do me a solid" is quite ridiculous.
6. I responded to RS on BJTF to a post he made here because I was suspended here and could not respond directly. I removed the thread once the discussion was done because of a complaint by Romes.
7. The word “feud” suggests acts of revenge. I am not taking part in a feud. OTOH, the other party posted elsewhere, and e-mailed me, that he will be continuing this: “for the next 50 years. Long after Norman is dead and gone”
8. My only “agenda” here was to stop what appeared to be attempts to start a forum war.
9. I made posts on BJTF, BJ21, and WoV pointing to a new, free and ad-free resource for which I get no income. It should help CBJN, which coincidentally was just purchased by the owner of this site. For some reason, I was attacked three times when posting it here. I now know better and will no longer post info on free resources here.
I have been saying for over a decade that the casinos are the opponent. It is important that we keep this in mind. Attacking each other only helps the casinos.
How is this lengthy and defensive post not a violation of whatever truce was negotiated? Not to mention you asking Mike to censor criticism of your forum or particular members, NONE of which were personal attacks, whatever your perception might have been.
Kj has been silenced on your behalf and this forum is the poorer for it. The least you could do is not continue to bring your complaints here. Just because he's gone doesn't mean the trashing continues.
And no, this did not start with your offering a tool, as someone said above. It's been going on for a couple months now. Just as it means nothing for you to say the last about the casinos after all the rest. You did this, started this war. It couldn't be an honest discussion of different approaches by different - skilled players. Not when you're involved, claiming everything is an attack and it's all personal.
Very unimpressed with your methods, and very disappointed in your double standards. Including your post after the one above. Please, do get me censored despite the lack of any personal attacks in this post, because I'm sure you'll be greatly offended, given your record here so far. Please continue to corrode the free speech standards and open discourse we hold dear by leveraging your friend Mike still further. And please continue to threaten the forum with the withdrawal of your "freely offered" tools.
Quote: QFITForgive me Romes, but I think you have this backwards. I was under suspension here when RS made a post with several statements asking me questions. Unable to respond here, I responded on BJTF where he is a frequent poster. It was I that was under attack while under suspension. My response was:
“I don't understand why you made a long post asking me questions on a forum where I cannot respond. Needless to say, I disagree with everything you stated. The question you asked is an example of a logical fallacy called a loaded question as the phrasing includes a false premise. It's like asking, ‘When did you stop beating your wife’.”
Your statement that anyone on BJTF that doesn't endorse the "level 3 count or you're not a real counter mentality is attacked by 3 prominent members” is patently absurd. I have NEVER endorsed a level 3 count in my life for anyone. I usually suggest KO or HiLo and have even suggested basic strategy for casual players. Indeed I have an article on that. It is these gross exaggerations that keep stirring the pot. There are, of course, opinions stated with which I don't agree. I do not censor opinions. I censor personal attacks. What good is a discussion forum where everyone thinks alike?
In case this wasn’t clear in my previous post,
1. I have never asked Mike to suspend anyone, and was quite surprised when this happened.
2. I have never asked Mike to nuke anyone.
3. I have never used the PM function here.
I’m really getting tired of people repeating outright fabrications and rank speculation. I know people here have been inundated for months with the same false narrative, and you speak of it as if it is all true. It isn't. For more detail, reread my last post.
Quote: beachbumbabsHow is this lengthy and defensive post not a violation of whatever truce was negotiated? Not to mention you asking Mike to censor criticism of your forum or particular members, NONE of which were personal attacks, whatever your perception might have been.
Kj has been silenced on your behalf and this forum is the poorer for it. The least you could do is not continue to bring your complaints here. Just because he's gone doesn't mean the trashing continues.
And no, this did not start with your offering a tool, as someone said above. It's been going on for a couple months now. Just as it means nothing for you to say the last about the casinos after all the rest. You did this, started this war. It couldn't be an honest discussion of different approaches by different - skilled players. Not when you're involved, claiming everything is an attack and it's all personal.
Very unimpressed with your methods, and very disappointed in your double standards. Including your post after the one above. Please, do get me censored despite the lack of any personal attacks in this post, because I'm sure you'll be greatly offended, given your record here so far. Please continue to corrode the free speech standards and open discourse we hold dear by leveraging your friend Mike still further. And please continue to threaten the forum with the withdrawal of your "freely offered" tools.
1. I NEVER asked Mike to censor criticism of BJTF. These false narratives continue. I asked him to remove posts making false accusations of scamming against four members of BJTF. If these accusations had any merit, they could be considered criminal and demand response.
2. I am responding to numerous posts about me which contained falsehoods. Am I not allowed?
3. The false claims of scamming new players has been going on for seven months.
4. I never threatened this forum.
5. And would you people stop repeating this falsehood that I asked for anyone to be suspended? I repeat, this is completely false.
6. KJ was NOT silenced on my behalf. Why would you accuse Mike of such a thing? Why would you accuse Mike of bowing to some friendship? Why are you bashing his site administration in such a manner?
Quote: AxelWolfdeath faking???
Yup, it happened on bj21
Quote: HowManyLet's examine this for a moment:
KJ gone. Forever.
1BB gone. Forever.
Norm still here.
Yep. I'm outta here. Go ahead and nuke me Wizard. Farewell.
No take backs!
Quote: DeMangoSo this is all over level 1 vs level 3 ?? I would pay Grossjean fiddy cent for his take on this "AP"!
Isn't it ridiculous? APs successfully use numerous different strategies, some of them counting strategies. As I have said many, many times; the idea that one size fits all is just plain silly.
How is, as I stated, my opinion on how I read the threads and how I was directly treated, patently false?Quote: QFIT...Your statement that anyone on BJTF that doesn't endorse the "level 3 count or you're not a real counter mentality is attacked by 3 prominent members” is patently absurd.
No one in this thread ever said anything about "scamming" new players. You're again trying to bring up something outside the scope of the conversation, about KJ, whom suspected mentoring of new players "for a price." I simply was referring to the count debacle, to which one of your own players proved it was pennies per hour different with your own software, yet that's what started all of the yelling and screaming.Quote: QFIT...3. The false claims of scamming new players has been going on for seven months.
I also never stated you asked anyone be suspended, or nuked, nor did I say you "PM'd" Mike on this site... That doesn't mean you didn't message or communicate with him and are trying to hide behind technicalities of "Well I've never PM'd on this site!"
KJ used to post here... You and him have bad blood... Now he's nuked. Any way you want to finite splice it, it's because of the interactions with you that he no longer posts here... Interactions that as far as most all of us can tell publicly he did nothing wrong. I'm not saying he did or didn't, just that if anything was done wrong, it hasn't been proven or brought to the light of the rest of our eyes. Yet here we are, KJ-less.Quote: QFIT6. KJ was NOT silenced on my behalf. Why would you accuse Mike of such a thing? Why would you accuse Mike of bowing to some friendship? Why are you bashing his site administration in such a manner?
Yes. Go post on BJTF and ask what count you should use. Back in the day this happened and KJ, a PROFESSIONAL BLACKJACK PLAYER (not just an "ap" but his profession is majorly just blackjack) would recommend Hi/Low and be berated for doing so. I felt the same responses in similar situations. Then, if you take their own math from Norms software that states it's PENNIES difference an hour, then they'll pick and piece you on technicalities of "Yeah but omg that SCORE" or "Well the n0 is like, 25 hands less!" and things that are relatively worthless when the end result is still PENNIES ON THE HOUR.Quote: DeMangoSo this is all over level 1 vs level 3 ?? I would pay Grossjean fiddy cent for his take on this "AP"!
Quote: Romes...a PROFESSIONAL BLACKJACK PLAYER...
The key word here is "player."
Send B9 back.Quote: HowManyLet's examine this for a moment:
KJ gone. Forever.
1BB gone. Forever.
Norm still here.
Yep. I'm outta here. Go ahead and nuke me Wizard. Farewell.
I never said Norm demanded a suspension nor a nuke. Only that he did contact Mike many, many times about the situation and since we can't discuss PM's we don't know what was exactly said and are left to speculate. With the rest of the info we do have, and how Norm feels about KJ, it would behoove anyone to think otherwise, though we don't know it as fact, yet.Quote: WizardofnothingI really hope mike chimes in here to dispute any fact that norm pmd him and asked for suspension short of any word from Mike I have to take romes word that he has it on good info. I wish norm would leave kj added a ton to the forum qfit has added absolutely zero as benefit to me- and I'm also shocked that Mike acted this out/ he has been bashed on Alan's old forum a ton and never banned Alan... I'm not sure why norm is such an important person
Quote: QFITHey, who needs facts when you have speculation?:)
I won't pretend to have read every comment on every thread in every forum that was part of your beef with Kewlj, but the little I did read lead me to believe that you were just as much a part of it as he was.
Quote: RonCI won't pretend to have read every comment on every thread in every forum that was part of your beef with Kewlj, but the little I did read lead me to believe that you were just as much a part of it as he was.
I didn't even get involved until he had already spent months attacking multiple people. This is not between the two of us, much as he tries to present it as such. It is between him and a lot of people.
I have work to do. I'm sure you folks will continue with your "speculations".
Multiple times you've attacked KJ, trying to paint him as a white supremacist and anti-Semite....yet, he never wrote anything of that nature. If you're so worried about facts, why say things that are untrue and misleading?
Of course it was not meant to attack you, and I already responded to that questions and you apologized. Now, can you say your post didn't include attacks here where I couldn't respond.:) (Just kidding.)
I stated why I killed that thread. I felt it was unfair of you to make your post where I couldn't respond. I made a post on BJTF which didn't mention anyone here. But then Romes copied your post to BJTF and linked to the thread from here. It occurred to me that this was now unfair and I moved the post to an obsolete forum that I thought was hidden from all view. I later discovered that it could be found via a direct url by the few people that new where to look, and hid the entire forum.
I have NEVER tried to "paint him as a white supremacist and anti-Semite". That is a falsehood he has claimed. I have stated that he is posting to an anti-Semite site, which is true and revolts me to my very core. He recently posted that he agrees with all the things they've said about me. They claim, among so many things, that I knew about 9/11 in advance and allowed thousands of people to die. I live in Manhattan. My GF ate lunch most days for years in the basement of the WTC. My company had two floors in the one of the buildings. We had to close the windows every time the wind turned to the North to avoid the smell of death for a full year. And that's just the start of what they have posted for the last four years.
A bit of advice for anyone considering -- NEVER start a forum.
Quote: Sabretom2This place is losing its appeal. The last few pages are embarrassing.
It's like "Real Housewives of WoV" in here.
Quote: QFITI have NEVER tried to "paint him as a white supremacist and anti-Semite". That is a falsehood he has claimed. I have stated that he is posting to an anti-Semite site, which is true and revolts me to my very core.
Huh?
You are splitting hairs
You just did it insulting KJ when he cant respond
If I went to post on that site it would "revolts me to my very core"?
Why is posting there so bad
If I posted there, it would be to embarrass the haters
Why would me posting against haters revolt you to your core?
Quote: QFITWhat is it about this site and claims of some agenda based on speculation?
Of course it was not meant to attack you, and I already responded to that questions and you apologized. Now, can you say your post didn't include attacks here where I couldn't respond.:) (Just kidding.)
I stated why I killed that thread. I felt it was unfair of you to make your post where I couldn't respond. I made a post on BJTF which didn't mention anyone here. But then Romes copied your post to BJTF and linked to the thread from here. It occurred to me that this was now unfair and I moved the post to an obsolete forum that I thought was hidden from all view. I later discovered that it could be found via a direct url by the few people that new where to look, and hid the entire forum.
I have NEVER tried to "paint him as a white supremacist and anti-Semite". That is a falsehood he has claimed. I have stated that he is posting to an anti-Semite site, which is true and revolts me to my very core.
Saying he's posting on a white-supremacist/anti-Semite website IS painting him as a white-supremacist/anti-Semite. Should I tell everyone that you read the content of a white-supremacist website frequently? (ZZF) Should I tell everyone that you have a problem with a gay man whom you've banned from your website? That there exists a sub-forum for casino management only to pay $1k/month (or maybe $5k?) to see all the contents on your forum? All factually true, but all extremely misleading. Do you agree?
I apologized for not responding to the email you sent me (an email I haven't used in a long time....like most people who sign up on forums with a random un-used email). Yet you make it out like I completely ignored you.
You made a thread about a post I made on WOV, all is fine and dandy, but as soon as it gets copy/pasted to your thread, now it's unfair? To whom was it unfair? I don't remember objecting to what Romes posted (the post I made on WOV). If I remember correctly it went several pages (barely 5?) before being locked and hidden from view. But I don't know for sure, since no one can read it anymore, alongside the anti-KJ thread.
Quote: RSSaying he's posting on a white-supremacist/anti-Semite website IS painting him as a white-supremacist/anti-Semite. Should I tell everyone that you read the content of a white-supremacist website frequently? (ZZF) Should I tell everyone that you have a problem with a gay man whom you've banned from your website? That there exists a sub-forum for casino management only to pay $1k/month (or maybe $5k?) to see all the contents on your forum? All factually true, but all extremely misleading. Do you agree?
I apologized for not responding to the email you sent me (an email I haven't used in a long time....like most people who sign up on forums with a random un-used email). Yet you make it out like I completely ignored you.
You made a thread about a post I made on WOV, all is fine and dandy, but as soon as it gets copy/pasted to your thread, now it's unfair? To whom was it unfair? I don't remember objecting to what Romes posted (the post I made on WOV). If I remember correctly it went several pages (barely 5?) before being locked and hidden from view. But I don't know for sure, since no one can read it anymore, alongside the anti-KJ thread.
Oh dear.
1. I have no idea who this gay man is or what you are talking about. I am a strong believer in LGBT rights. There is no sub-forum for casino management. I made a joke like that years ago saying casinos could join for a million bucks or something else nutty. Of course this is not factually true.
2. He is not posting negative things about the anti-Semite site. He posted that he agrees with all they have said about me. There are posts in his thread with gross images of "evil Jews" and claims of Holocaust-denial. He just keeps posting about how much he agrees with what they say about me, and says nothing about these horrid images. He has even repeated their wild fabrications. I would list all the claims about me made there, but it would violate several rules here.
3. I felt the the thread was unfair to HIM after Romes linked to it from here. That's what I stated and that's why I moved it. Let us stop this conspiracy nonsense.
4. Yes, there was an anti-KJ thread. I removed it. Are you actually criticizing me for removing an anti-KJ thread?
Look, KJ was suspended for seven days, I was suspended for three days on the same day. I refused to post anything during the four days that he was still suspended because it would have been unfair. Unfortunately, you made a post calling me out and Romes made a link to the resulting BJTF thread. I felt this violated my oath to myself. I removed the thread in the interest of fairness. There is no "mystery" here.
Quote: ams288Sabretom2]This place is losing its appeal. The last few pages are embarrassing.
Quote: ams288It's like "Real Housewives of WoV" in here.
There is one discussion that should pretty much be discussed in this thread (I hope it doesn't spread) and that seems fine to me. If someone doesn't like the conversation here, it is easy to ignore. I can't see how the place is losing its appeal due to that when everyone uninterested can ignore, but people can choose to be upset or offended whenever they wish.
Why did the thread go on for 5 pages when Romes's post was one of the first posts made in that thread (the FIRST post, after OP, if I remember correctly)?
Quote: AxelWolfdeath faking???
Quote: DeMangoYup, it happened on bj21
... ! ...
Quote: QFITOh dear.
1. I have no idea who this gay man is or what you are talking about. I am a strong believer in LGBT rights.
One has to suspend disbelief in order to even think that you don't know that Kewlj is a gay man.
