SHFL Focus Group 2

Shuffle Master in the next 4-6 weeks will conduct another--albeit different--focus group for new table games.

Here are the specifics:

1. All Joes, no Pros. No SHFL games will be on display. All other developers are welcome, whether they are complete rookies or seasoned veterans.
2. Six games will be displayed.
3. Evaluators will play each game for 20 minutes.
4. Inventors must present their own games.
5. Same scoring as last time.
6. Date TBD, but likely in the second week of June.
7. If anyone needs "emergency math" to get his game ready, SHFL will do it.

If interested, please send me an e-mail at rsnow@shufflemaster.com.

This is not first-come, first-served. I will accept applications until 11:59 p.m. May 8 and then draw six names.


Roger

This is excellent.

All external entries,
longer time period for each game,
fewer games.

I think it was just a matter of getting it right, learning from where it could have been better.

Damn.,stole my thunder. I was gonna post on Sunday that I would lay 8 to 1 the next focus group will allow at least 15 minutes.
And yes, I would have taken Roger's action too. LOL

One can only hope the host is afforded a little more courtesy this time round.

Quote: THESWEENEY

One can only hope the host is afforded a little more courtesy this time round.

I second that.

Quote: TheSweeny

One can only hope the host is afforded a little more courtesy this time round.

Quote: Wizard

I second that.

The host is immensely respected, and always was, by those who know what he has accomplished. I think he is the Eric Clapton of the table game design business, and I carry just a little weight here. There is no question of that. He's also a very blunt and "cut through the bullshit" type of man not here to waste time, but is here on business. Still he, as we all, may get some things less than 100% the first time around on a production. This was not a secret laboratory event, it was a sponsored expo of new games evaluation, and there were mishaps, that's all.

In this light, One can argue that he would be given a very poor service from us if we were to indeed offer up - and to condone - any false patronage, when there were issues of event handling, procedure improvement, implementation and appearance problems, and what have you. These are issues that could and should be fearlessly addressed, without fear of anger from Roger.

Firstly, Roger himself would be the very first one to say, "Your game is way less than optimal, my friend - and here are its problems! Please address it and fix it if you wish to go forward with this type of thing. I'm here on business, and I am not here to patronize you." And he doesn't blow smoke up people's nostrils. And neither were we in presenting our concerns. He was plain speaking, and he came off to some as brusk to some; perhaps he is at times brusk and direct. Many of us present concerns, and as a result any appreciation, consideration or gratitude that is present (or certainly should be present in us for him), is not seen - whether it is masked or even absent. Keep in mind that Roger did this event to procure new games for the benefit of Shufflemaster, as well as for our benefit, and for us to get our games up to snuff by Shufflemaster's standards, as THEY will be distributing, and they know what's best.

I didn't mind having a negative score of HKP (Hong Kong Poker) - not at all. I wanted to know what exactly needed to be fixed if there WERE any problem. If I had received a lovely score and some applause when these things were secondary or irrelevant to game design problem solving, then it would be a bad thing. I want to know is my game good-to-go, and IF NOT - why!

This whole thing was primarily as issue of "beside manners and hurt feelings" in some cases, but I will also say that NO game designer present was a wide-eyed dreamer or a Prima Donna in any way, shape or form - and if he were, it is certainly gone now. No one expecting to really get a table game out should be a wuss or a p*ssy when presented with criticism, an assessment, or correction. But some travelled 2,000 miles after mortgaging the house to pay for patents and math, complete with arguments with the wife over everything along the way to get as far as they did, so it had to look 100% fair and square. Granted, it is very much a "not my problem" kind of thing if you choose to step into this brutally competitive ring, so it's for all the more reason that the deck must not only BE fair and not stacked (which it absolutely was by intention), and it has to LOOK fair and LOOK not stacked. If any biasing factors entered in, it was completey inadvertant, and part of a learning process even for the company with tremendous experience.

It is hard as hell - and a REALLY long road - to get a game out from a cocktail napkin sketch to the casino floor. Everybody makes sacrifies. Every game designer needs to know it is not for the faint-hearted or the dreamer, and usually, more than often, ends in failure. But, you shouldn't have missed it for the world, and with NO regrets for trying and as getting as far as you did. Without such projects, many would have been vegetating in front of a late-night HBO movie eating Dorito's if not better distracted with this personal game design mission, so such an endeavor if not successful, it is still successful in many ways. My wife used to think I was f*cking nuts. Now she knows better and goes shopping. And it took YEARS!

And an accurate assesment of our games is vital to all those who enter this fray. We need to hear what sucks, what stinks, or if we need to abandon game 'x' to start on game 'y' it is that bad. Or if we need a minor fix-up: to remove a redundant side bet, a daffy paytable, and awkward house edge mechanism, or what have you to fix it. Everyone present has a realistic shot as a game designer.

We also needed to see how our games stack up in an initial review on a fair field; Clarity, honesty, and Completeness in this area is just critical. If the 'evaulation event' looks suspect, or has accidental or inadvertant errors in it, or a lack of feedback, (espeially if conducted and organized in good faith), then the game designers who are trying to help a big distributor (as much as vice-versa) may consider the process wasteful as best, and corrupt, at worst, which it was not as all, as it was just natural beta-test errors. Concerns expressed about the costs or fallout of such human mishaps and learning experiences in this event process are not "ingratitude," even if natural anger or angst occurred. Things go wrong, people get upset, we get past it and learn from it. While I felt what Roger did was beautiful, there were mistakes that were criticised. More about the event than on the games, so the second time around I assume the balance will change.

What Roger did was beautiful and in our behalf, not meaning to sound corny. And yes, he and Shufflemaster deserve gratitude, - but not calls for patronage. Just as Shufflemaster tells us, "fix the problems, so let's learn from it," it's the same here.

And Shufflemaster really did it to advance table gaming, not just or primarily to recieve gratitude, applause, from knuckleheads like us.

Quote: Pacman

Shuffle Master in the next 4-6 weeks will conduct another--albeit different--focus group for new table games.

Here are the specifics:

1. All Joes, no Pros. No SHFL games will be on display. All other developers are welcome, whether they are complete rookies or seasoned veterans.
2. Six games will be displayed.
3. Evaluators will play each game for 20 minutes.
4. Inventors must present their own games.
5. Same scoring as last time.
6. Date TBD, but likely in the second week of June.
7. If anyone needs "emergency math" to get his game ready, SHFL will do it.

If interested, please send me an e-mail at rsnow@shufflemaster.com.

This is not first-come, first-served. I will accept applications until 11:59 p.m. May 8 and then draw six names.


Roger

Pick me, I'm on a forum. Pick me, I know someone on a forum. Pick me, I know someone who knows someone .......

There's nothing fixed, and there never was.
Pacman and Shufflemaster are just trying to work out a process of new game evaluation, and they just are correcting issues from a first try at it that caused PR problems. Jesus...

If the next expo of new games is composed of:
a) only independent games from independent game designers, and
b) no prominent or recognized gaming executives are pitching these games, and
c) ample time if alloted to review the games,
then I say - as a loud critic of the previous expo's faults - that the new expo is clean, (as was the first, actually), and that it is provably clean now.
1BB - Who the hell are you in gaming to say otherwise, really, and what do you know?
This next expo will now be so provably proper than even EvenBob won't criticize it.

The use of a gaming forum where table game design is a very prominent area is perhaps THE VERY BEST source of finding new game developers in good faith.

The fact that some novices also troll our forum is incidental, and you describe yourself here:

Quote: 1BB

Pick me, I'm on a forum. Pick me, I know someone on a forum. Pick me, I know someone who knows someone .......

1BB, You won't be picked.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Sorry if my attempt at humor offended you oh great one. Feel free to make all the personal insults you like. We all know you won't get suspended. Where are the F-words and racist comments this time?

Very slick. I should have quoted you so everyone would see that you edited your post by replacing the word morons with novices.

Quote: 1BB

Sorry if my attempt at humor offended you oh great one. Feel free to make all the personal insults you like. We all know you won't get suspended. Where are the F-words and racist comments this time?
Very slick. I should have quoted you so everyone would see that you edited your post by replacing the word morons with novices.

Your humor didn't offend me, and I am not a great one. Never said I was a great one. You did.
If the Wizard didn't suspend a ignorant fool like you, then he wouldn't suspend a true contributor like me. This is obvious.
Again, who are you and what have you done. The period denotes a statement here.

I replaced the word "moron" with "novice," - to express underserved kindness to a mere novice like you.

And if a novice like you isn't suspended, then shoot, neither am I.

If the Wizard protects novices like you, then he protects novices like me.
This is especially so, as you contribute less knowledge of this industry.
You know nothing about this industry, you contributed nothing to this industry in your life, as either a game designer or a veteran casino dealer.

1BB has Zero experience, and Zero knowledge of the gaming industry, aside from taking shots a successful gaming industry veterans.
That's the real story about you 1BB, and it is apparent.

No f-words, no ad hominen attacks, you are eraseable, or at least ignorable, by pointing out the simple fact of your non-contributions.
1BB, you actually have no qualifications to speak of to be on this board.
Or in the gaming industry - except as a floorman, many of whom DO actually act like you - before they are terminated.
And calling you a novice is not an ad hominen attack; it is simply a factual statement. You are a novice at best.

Calm down. He made a joke.

Quote: thecesspit

Calm down. He made a joke.

Cesspit, I am calm, and I responded calmly.
1BB took a shot a me, and I calmly defended myself.
Shouldn't you tell that to him?
Please re-read this thread.

Here's an idea.

How about making a thread for discussing and criticizing SHFL 2, and leaving Pacman room here to update this event. After all, the people who do matter as far these events go, the game developers themselves, are fine with it. While the person making all the objections, flames and noise doesn't even have a dog in the fight.

I don't have anything at stake here, beyond rooting for the board members involved and wishing them success with their games. But I do care about the board. I think it's good to have these types of events advertised and followed up here. Think about it. The game distributor is coming here to look for new games. That tells you something about the quality of the game inventors who come here, and of the Wizard's math work for some of them as well.

Is this something we want to drive away from here by drowning it in noise?

Quote: Pacman

Shuffle Master in the next 4-6 weeks will conduct another--albeit different--focus group for new table games.

Here are the specifics:

1. All Joes, no Pros. No SHFL games will be on display. All other developers are welcome, whether they are complete rookies or seasoned veterans.

Roger

Roger, Could you please clarify the difference between "Pros" and "seasoned veterans"? I assume "Pros" means "game design and/or game distribution is your full time job / work" and "seasoned veterans", all others. Any better ways to distinguish these two?

Quote: Paigowdan

There's nothing fixed, and there never was.


1BB, You won't be picked.

Dan - Assuming a random, non-fixed drawing, only one of those two things could be certain:-)

Also, as you've said, Roger is a no-nonsense professional. I doubt he needs or wants 3 pages of "defense" from a 3 sentence long joke, you know?

Quote: UCivan

Roger, Could you please clarify the difference between "Pros" and "seasoned veterans"? I assume "Pros" means "game design and/or game distribution is your full time job / work" and "seasoned veterans", all others. Any better ways to distinguish these two?

I was just being cute with the PvJ reference. To clarify:
Pro = SHFL employee.
Joe = Anybody else.

No offense or derision intended.

Member since: Mar 8, 2011
Threads: 79
Posts: 2605

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Do you still stand by this statement, DAN ??????

You did not respond on the original thread.

Do i have to go to Vegas to get your answer? LOL

Thanks. Re: date, will it be somewhere between 6/4 to 6/8? I am from out of town and would like the book a cheaper airfare now if I have some idea. No, you don't have to be committed to the exact dates; just a rough idea will do.

Quote: UCivan

Thanks. Re: date, will it be somewhere between 6/4 to 6/8? I am from out of town and would like the book a cheaper airfare now if I have some idea. No, you don't have to be committed to the exact dates; just a rough idea will do.

Around June 12.

Quote: Nareed

Here's an idea.

How about making a thread for discussing and criticizing SHFL 2, and leaving Pacman room here to update this event. After all, the people who do matter as far these events go, the game developers themselves, are fine with it. While the person making all the objections, flames and noise doesn't even have a dog in the fight.

I don't have anything at stake here, beyond rooting for the board members involved and wishing them success with their games. But I do care about the board. I think it's good to have these types of events advertised and followed up here. Think about it. The game distributor is coming here to look for new games. That tells you something about the quality of the game inventors who come here, and of the Wizard's math work for some of them as well.

Is this something we want to drive away from here by drowning it in noise?

Kathy, I have a lot of dogs in the fight in the gaming industry. Table Game design is my every job every day at DEQ systems, like it is Pacman's job at Shufflemaster, plus I have to work every night after my day time work, to deal dice at a local casino, because I work at a smaller outfit.

To be frank, it's actually tough to be a Shufflemaster executive: if a Shufflemaster executive who really cares about his company, and cares enough to post honestly on an Internet Board about an upcoming table games event, then somebody will wrongly take shots at him and his company, by virtue of being the biggest target in the industry. Others will post about correcting mishaps, to see it better off for the next time, and for the benefit of all in the industry, AND be accused of ingratitude (and racism and necrophilia and what have you) also.

People may post very frank critiques and opinions on how things may or may not be done better, in hope of change of better, for expressing concerns and opinions; they may even be called "lacking in gratitude".

Quote: Nareed

I don't have anything at stake here, beyond rooting for the board members involved and wishing them success with their games. But I do care about the board.

So do I. I ALSO have massive stakes and investments in table games design, and in table games placement - as a table games designer who is working for the direct competitor of Shufflemaster, DEQ Systems; and I have NO problem with Roger or with Shufflemaster.

Frankly, I would like to see new games expositions go off as smoothly as possible for the benefit of us all, and in this regard, I have publicly offered up some good ideas about preparing a "fairer platform" - to review and assess new tables games both at this forum in gaming distributor companies, and I think some of my ideas I think have taken hold "through the noise" you gripe about - even if some of the noise came from me (Dan Lubin) and Pacman (Roger Snow). Shit, we were just working shit out. And that doesn't matter, as long as we all grow and perfect the process for the benfit of all us table game distributors and table game gamblers, - which is what counts.

Based on the specs of the second expo, I think progress was made for the benfit of us all.



as I said, table game design is my livelyhood in the Casino gaming industry - as it is paman's. Okay?

Quote: buzzpaff

Member since: Mar 8, 2011
Threads: 79
Posts: 2605

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Do you still stand by this statement, DAN ??????

Yes - absoutely - and you can see this applied in Roger's second set of specifications for his second expo.
You for one, Buzzpaff, were left way out in left field once the results were tabulated on ALL the game submissions, - including YOURS - BUZZPAFF;
You did not do quite as well as Shufflemaster's inhouse projects that had been a part of the original competition, and neither had I with Hong Kong Poker - "now that YOU ask." In fact, your game was shit-trashed in the scoring, if I may point out, - as well as mine. I do not count this as a basis for fawning or holding a patronizing position, if I find the scoring questionable. If the scoring was clean, I'd shut up and take the lumps along with the corrective comments. I, for one, know and respect Roger well enough not to patronize him if I do question the results. If he expects anything less, he ain't getting it.

If you call my honesty ingratitude, I will say you are mistaken, as I express my professional relationship with Pacman (as I do with Earle Himself) by not lying to them on how I see things in gaming, - or in how situations went down.

If DEQ doesn't pay me to lie to Earle or Steve, then they certainly dont pay me to lie to Roger, now do they.
For what goes on in this board at times, I'm stunned at times at the log-rolling.

Others do - shamelessly! Ha! A bad game I will call a bad game, - and Public Relation Mistakes the First time around I will also call as such.

I would like to think we all work together in this industry, as much as we may bicker at times - and BOY, can we fight.

But We are all just looking for progress and improvement.

Dan.

Quote: Paigowdan

I ALSO have massive stakes and investments in table games design, and in table games placement - as a table games designer who is working for the direct competitor of Shufflemaster, DEQ Systems; and I have NO problem with Roger or with Shufflemaster.

WOW, I did not know this. Now I understand why Roger said he was "misquoted, misrepresented,.." by Dan / Paigowdan.

Quote: Nareed

Here's an idea.

How about making a thread for discussing and criticizing SHFL 2, and leaving Pacman room here to update this event. After all, the people who do matter as far these events go, the game developers themselves, are fine with it. While the person making all the objections, flames and noise doesn't even have a dog in the fight.

I don't have anything at stake here, beyond rooting for the board members involved and wishing them success with their games. But I do care about the board. I think it's good to have these types of events advertised and followed up here. Think about it. The game distributor is coming here to look for new games. That tells you something about the quality of the game inventors who come here, and of the Wizard's math work for some of them as well.

Is this something we want to drive away from here by drowning it in noise?

As Paigowdan said please re-read the thread. I was making a joke to Pacman. Paigowdan interjected and tried to make it about him. He continues to insult me this time calling me an ignorant fool. He hasn't edited that one yet.

Nareed, are you really trying to spin this into objections, flames and noise? You're better than that. Do you have any comment about the personal insults directed at me? I have never insulted anyone or used profanity and I never will. I will take your wise advice and make this my final post on this matter for the good of the forum. Do you think my attacker will do the same or will he spend the rest of the day making posts that I promise not to respond to?

Nareed, I don't speak to you very often so let me take this opportunity to wish you a wonderful Vegas vacation. I know everyone appreciates all your efforts to make it a great one!

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Since you capitalized ALL, I take that to mean I felt burned. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Neither by words, actions, or body language did I express any displeasure with the scoring system.
You might want to check with the Wiz as my parting comments were about garage sales, of all things.
If you want to speak for me, perhaps you should consider signing a non-disclosure agreement first.
Or at least wait until I post my feeling about the Dinner and Focus group. You might actually learn
something !

Quote: 1BB

As Paigowdan said please re-read the thread. I was making a joke to Pacman. Paigowdan interjected and tried to make it about him. He continues to insult me this time calling me an ignorant fool. He hasn't edited that one yet.

I'm not going to, because I felt your comment added nothing to the thread or to gaming in general, - and I said so. Your joke was out of place for anyone concerned. I too make such mistakes, just pointing it out. You may edit your post as you see fit.

Quote: 1BB

Nareed, are you really trying to spin this into objections, flames and noise? You're better than that. Do you have any comment about the personal insults directed at me? I have never insulted anyone or used profanity and I never will.

1BB, your posts are often taken or interpreted as personal insults, or as irrelevant mis-directions on a thread that have nothing to do with the gaming industry.

Quote: 1BB

I will take your wise advice and make this my final post on this matter for the good of the forum. Do you think my attacker will do the same or will he spend the rest of the day making posts that I promise not to respond to?

1BB, you were considered the attacker AND thread interruptor. Kathy, - eyes are upon you. :)

Deleted my post, am bored now.

Never mind...

Quote: Paigowdan

Kathy, I have a lot of dogs in the fight in the gaming industry.

I know. In fact the complaint wasn't a reference to you, or to 1BB (aka Ben Backedoff). But as far as I could see, which isn't easy when you block certain users, Evenbob's trolling around and weaving baseless conspiracy theories about what was, after all, a good faith gesture by a game distributor to let developers show their games.

Dan, you're obviously a man with strong convictions and a great deal of passion. I admire and respect both traits.

Quote: 1BB

As Paigowdan said please re-read the thread. I was making a joke to Pacman.

Please do read my post to Dan. I wasn't referring either to him or to you.

Quote:

Do you have any comment about the personal insults directed at me?

You'll have to forgive me, but I haven't been following the threads close enough. I must have missed it.

Quote:

Nareed, I don't speak to you very often so let me take this opportunity to wish you a wonderful Vegas vacation. I know everyone appreciates all your efforts to make it a great one!

Thank you. FYI I've been running around all morning making last minute preparations, shopping, etc. I expect I'll spend the day packing and printing out pay tables and strategy cards :)

Read this article and this one to get a real idea of what you're up against. What really sold me that Roger is probably a good guy is: "Once, while driving, threw an apple into the back of a garbage truck that was stopped in front of me ... left-handed, mind you." This is why he makes the big bucks at SHFL.
They apparently believed him..

Quote: Pacman

Around June 12.

I fly in on the 7th so count me in to be at SHFL2.

Hiya Switch, just realised you're in my neck of the woods - I'm in Halesowen. I take it you know Stevie on a personal basis then. Good luck at SHFL2, they might need a referee. Nice to see this thread is so much more light-hearted that the previous one. I'm going to PM Roger and pitch for the 'Octagon Concession' at SHFL2.

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Do you still stand by this statement, DAN ??????

I also asked what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " You for one, Buzzpaff, were left way out in left field once the results were tabulated on ALL the game submissions, - including YOURS - BUZZPAFF; "

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " You did not do quite as well as Shufflemaster's inhouse projects that had been a part of the original competition, and neither had I with Hong Kong Poker - "now that YOU ask." In fact, your game was shit-trashed in the scoring.

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " I do not count this as a basis for fawning or holding a patronizing position "

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " If you call my honesty ingratitude, I will say you are mistaken, as I express my professional relationship with Pacman (as I do with Earle Himself) by not lying to them on how I see things in gaming, - or in how situations went down. "

Now i will ask a different question Dan

" You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency ?

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.

Yes I know Stevie very well - he told me that you go to The Broadway quite often, I should be there tomorrow evening with Steve.

Quote: Switch

I fly in on the 7th so count me in to be at SHFL2.

Switch, don't you want to wait till you're drawn? Are U a "seed" designer? If you are, we have 5 spots left.

Quote: UCivan

Switch, don't you want to wait till you're drawn? Are U a "seed" designer? If you are, we have 5 spots left.

I'm over there on the 7th anyway ... I will be attending the Focus Group, possibly as a designer.

Quote: buzzpaff

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Do you still stand by this statement, DAN ??????

Yes, Buzz, as a matter of fact I do. I stood in the front of the room so that I could see people's reaction. People were stunned and perplexed, dumbfounded. I looked at you too, Buzz. You were frozen. Gary Willis and Johnny were besides themselve. Stacy (ME) was happy and very pleased with the results, but he too also seemed very surprised.
People came to terms with it, so the strange scoring was perhaps had a silver lining. In any case it WAS a great introduction to game development: ANYTHING can happen, we do NOT know what game will ever work out in the end or what problems may ever pop up UNTIL there are about 75 installs after two years of live table game play. and not a MOMENT before this, pretty much.

Quote: BuzzPaff

I also asked what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " You for one, Buzzpaff, were left way out in left field once the results were tabulated on ALL the game submissions, - including YOURS - BUZZPAFF; "

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Buzz, I stood in the front of the room gauging people's reaction. You were near the back, close to the table where Mike demo-ed his Mulligan Poker game. You looked frozen and stunned. I felt bad for all.

Quote: Buzzpaff

Dan's answer " You did not do quite as well as Shufflemaster's inhouse projects that had been a part of the original competition, and neither had I with Hong Kong Poker - "now that YOU ask." In fact, your game was shit-trashed in the scoring.

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Dan's answer " I do not count this as a basis for fawning or holding a patronizing position "

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

I described the reactions of everybody in the room, including you. At that time, you were indeed surprised, stunned, and saddened, as were just about everyone except for Mike and Stacy/ME, who were pleased with the results. They were the only two were happy, really, aside from Rich, who is pure "good attitude and 'roll with the punches'" kind of an individual. It looked as if Mike and Stacy were two happy and animated individuals walking around a wax museum, for about 5 or 10 minutes - people's reaction were indeed as such. The fact that people came very quickly to terms with a 'solid taste' of the gaming industry was a VERY positive and good thing. This is what is required to "keep on trucking," because it's like that in gaming. And remember, we ALL have to go through a thousand painful failues before we get to the first yes or success, so in a sense the failures were simply the path that leads to success that may come, but it is always a surprising, difficult, and yes, painful at times journey - to get a hit game out. It is actually NORMAL to encounter mishaps, accidents, and surprises on this road. In a way, the new games event was perhaps the best thing that could have happened the way it did.
Now, Roger did a fine thing:
1. Gave us a chance, and expo for us.
2. There were some bugs in it, which is normal and part of the process.
3. He is human, as are we, and few things come out perfect the first time. Sometimes it may seem quite bad when it is not in the end.

Quote: Buzzpaff

Dan's answer " If you call my honesty ingratitude, I will say you are mistaken, as I express my professional relationship with Pacman (as I do with Earle Himself) by not lying to them on how I see things in gaming, - or in how situations went down. "

Now i will ask a different question Dan

" You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency ?

I have a very strong sense of decency, and it is also represented in my very plain-speaking, truthful, and honest opinions.

Doing totally honest post-mortems and autopsies is exactly how you birth the NEXT game baby or expo game event alive and better. We LEARN from ALL mistakes.

Quote: Buzzpaff

I ask again what statements, gestures, or body language did I exhibit that led you to believe I felt burned ?

Lack of affect; frozen stance; depressed look; stunned, even dumbfounded expression; etc.
It was a normal reaction, even a part of the very process itself. The fact that we're okay with it, and it was a positive event overall is a good sign and result, and a learning experience that is a part of the process: countless surprises and rejections on the road to possible success is the norm.
But most were surprised and stunned at the time, and moved on from it for the better.

Quote: Buzzpaff

Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.

??

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Buzzpaff

Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him,
And makes me poor indeed.

??

It's from Othello. I think Buzz would like it if you stopped telling him how he felt. That's something he knows better than you, and he quite obviously thinks you're wrong...

I still haven't fully read the other thread, but since I got bumped, I got some time to kill while using McCarran's free WiFi...
I DID read this thread entirely....


1BB -
For the record, I recognized the joke. However, I felt it was particularly insulting. Had it not been for this forum, and my meeting and becoming friends with Dan because of WoV, I'd just be one of those guys on a forum with an idea but no way to move forward with it, other than to jump up and say, "Pick me!"


Dan -
I tend to agree with Buzz. I do not feel screwed in the slightest bit by the format of having to "compete" against Roger / ShuffleMaster games.

Frankly, I never believed that the event was a "competition." It was a way to get thoughts and opinions about all the games presented. Oh, sure, Mike's game may be getting special attention now, but not because he finished ahead of all the other independents, but because his game is simple, and too damn good to ignore.

Do you really think Roger's games scores so well because of Roger's personal influence on the judges? Really? Are you saying Roger intentionally hired Yes Men and Ass Kissers?

For the record, while I was in his office, rather that cut my time short, he invited me to sit in on a 10 minute layout and logo design meeting. To give the artists an idea of the games, we played them for a couple hands. One was one of the games from the show. The other was something so ingenious, simple, elegant - not to mention very well named - that I was practically sh*tting my pants over it.

Sigh, Roger swore me to secrecy. When he announces it, or gives me the green light to talk about it, you too will say "friggin' awesome!"

P.S. . .
To reply to new posts while I was typing on my iPhone ...

I think all of those involved - particularly those that got negative scores - expected to do higher. If any of us seemed stunned at the scores (I know I was) it was just the initial shock. I started to feel better about my results after hearing the feedback.

" " ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

Dan Lubin is the new Sigmund Frued. He is able to see that I was disappointed at my poor performance. And without speaking to me, or anyone I talked too, he was able to diagnose that I felt burned because all the Shuffle Master had positive scores. Next you will be telling me I was under tremendous stress and my poor performance was due to my " choking up "

You know Dan, had I written what I first thought when you posted that " ALL" comment I would have been suspended for a minimum of 30 days at least. The only game I was sure of was SMI was xx poker because Switch was kind enough to evaluate my game protection against counters for me.

And I shared your great advice pre the focus group with DJ Teddy Bear. I had no idea why you thought I was pissed that SHF games had high scores. Did you do a VULCAN mind melt or something ?

I have suffered from foot in mouth disease in the past, but it was always my own foot, not yours. Until you improve you mind reading techniques, I suggest you shut up.

Read my post tomorrow of my exact thought process thru the Dinner and Focus Group . The one person I never lie to is me !!

Dan Lubin " I have a very strong sense of decency, and it is also represented in my very plain-speaking, truthful, and honest opinions. "

Then state opinion and not wrap them as facts.

" " ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores, "inflicting" a very heavy curve on the results in some people's eyes."

ALL does not include me or DJteddybear. Why is that so hard for you to understand ???

Aw, geez, Charles, this is a useless pissing match.

1. For the record, people were stunned and surprised at the results of the voting; even the winners were very surprised (and pleased).

2. Having a legend and a leader in the industry pitch some of the games had an effect; it could not...not have an effect. It applied a curve to the results, and it's now known for the next go around.

3. I was four feet from DJTeddybear during the vote tally, and three feet from Gary. He was stunned - flummoxed - by the results, - as and when they were posted. So were you, Charles, at the time. I stress: "at the time." the fact that you are now fine with things now is great, really. But you were not there horraying, "Yesss! I got a minus xxx% score! - near the bottom of the pack! YESSSS!!" Trust me, you were not. This is like saying in Blackjack, "Yes!!! I got a 15 against a dealer's ACE - AND he flip over a blackjack! YESSS!" This did not happen. The fact that it's no big now is fine.

I am happy that most bounced back very quickly indeed, and that it was a learning experience for ALL involved. Yes, a learning experience for ALL.
The fact that we are all past the stun of the results, and are accepting and happy with it in hindsight does not change the impact of the vote tally at the time.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, Buzz, as a matter of fact I do. I stood in the front of the room so that I could see people's reaction. People were stunned and perplexed, dumbfounded. I looked at you too, Buzz. You were frozen.
...
Buzz, I stood in the front of the room gauging people's reaction. You were near the back, close to the table where Mike demo-ed his Mulligan Poker game. You looked frozen and stunned. I felt bad for all.
...
I described the reactions of everybody in the room, including you. At that time, you were indeed surprised, stunned, and saddened, as were just about everyone...

Dan, for the record, I didn't discern a meaningful shift in Buzz's demeanor from the night prior. You don't really know him that well, and I'd guess he's the sort who prefers to stand back and quietly observe. There's nothing wrong with that, but don't confuse that demeanor with stunned surprise. It's sort of bizarre that you keep insisting you're right and he's wrong about how he was feeling.

" ALL the other independent developers felt burned because the SHFL games all had positive scores,"

That was the farthest thing from my mind, Mr Lubn.

Or should I use your childhood name " Eddie Haskell "

Quote: Paigowdan

2. Having a legend and a leader in the industry pitch some of the games had an effect; it could not...not have an effect. It applied a curve to the results, and it's now known for the next go around.

I've been thinking about the effect of the "curve" in this case. I think it might be more apt to say that Roger broke the curve (hey, someone's gotta be "that guy"...). It seems to me that just being in a position to make it into this room said a lot about these games and their quality. It also seems to me like this wasn't a scoring system that suffered from an inflationary effect. Keeping with the curved test analogy, this is the ass-kicking undergrad advanced math test where a 30% is still a B.

Normally, a big part of the problem coding responses from a focus group is adjusting for the wishy-washy human nature of the respondents. On a 10 point scale, most people heavily center on 5-8. Things are "OK" or "good" but never "poor" or "great". The difference between an average score of 7 and an average score of 7.5 is a HUGE swing, and the art of analyzing the data is to re-scale the responses to blow out the spread between those responses. I'm sure it's proprietary, but as a survey research geek, I'd be pretty interested to see the scoring metrics and question wordings from this event. Seems like SHFL did a good job at getting a spread across entrants, which I assume means that some form of forced ranking was used.

Alright, it's been four days since the event. Can we please move the complaints to the "Gripes" forum and off of here or at least back onto the original focus group thread. This thread is supposed to be about the second focus group on June 12.

With that in mind, is there anything that game developers/presenters from the first focus group learned that could be shared with the second focus group, other future focus groups, or just inventors/game developers in general. This entire forum is designed to assist each other.

For instance, were there problems with:

1 - the ease or difficulty of the game? (Did it take too long to learn; would it scare away the average, nonsophisticated gambler; did it take too long to play each hand; did game developers remember to keep the games simple, etc.)
2 - the math behind the game? (too large or too small of a house edge)
3 - the fun of the game? (were the games fun to play or did they seem boring and draggin on?)
4 - the hit frequency for the players? (did people win at the games or did it end up being a lot of losses for the players sampling the game?)
5 - the name of the game? (anyone question the names? Was this discussed at all or was it just focused on the play of the game, house edge, fun factor, etc.?)
6 - too many side bets?
7 - the difficulty for a dealer to deal and handle the game? (essentially, would a dealer like to deal your game?)
8 - the layout of the game? (any comments on this issue?)
9 - anything else?

Was there a common problem among all of the new games?

I like the idea of only a handful of games at one focus group. Trying to learn too many games would be very difficult for anyone. I also like the idea that the people who are testing each game MUST PLAY the game for 20 minutes each. I was concerned after reading the other posts from the first focus group that many of the judges simply walked away and never played or, at least, only played for a shortened time frame. Perhaps a delayed payment to the judges until after they perform their duties at the focus group (playing the games and providing feedback) would help them evaluate each game better and give greater feedback to the inventor.

WITHOUT CONDEMING the judges from the first focus group, what else could they have done to ensure that they are not wore out from the overwhelming number of games and still make an honest and accurate assessment of each game, and make sure that they give the game developer the courtesy of getting involved with and playing the game so that they understand the ins and outs of the game PRIOR to critiquing it?

Did anyone have a problem with the signed waivers before presenting at the first focus group? As I understand it, the attendees sign waivers - there are no Non-Disclosure Agreements. How did everyone feel about that?

Also, what is meant by emergency math for those that need it for the second focus group? I have all of my numbers except a couple. (I think I am right on them - I know I am close on them - but I think I need a couple checked out for sure) However, to get the emergency math offered by Roger in this post would require me to disclose my game prior to the event in order to get that. Anyone have any ideas on this issue?

No COMPLAINERS need reply. I am looking at moving my game forward and the incessant complaints distract from what is otherwise a very valuable forum, thread post, and event by Shuffle Master.

Gripes are over and done with.

I think the the second event should be very fine, if not exemplary.

The first go-around was a learning experience, - a field trial; in fact a very nobel experiment, and kind offering, that simply had its growing pains. We're all past it. Wounds have been licked, adjustments made, and notes taken on it. This may be a case where the internal industry had moved faster than residual forum griping and boxing. A lot was learned. It's already been moved onwards from there. It's been four days, and the net is behind the curve on this as to the real deal, - kinda like a facebook IPO. Been over.

If anyone can make perfect a game or a presentation from the result of a field trial, it's SHFL.

" With that in mind, is there anything that game developers/presenters from the first focus group learned that could be shared with the second focus group or other future focus groups. This entire forum is designed to assist each other. "

Well said, sir. Heading to church now. Will hopefully post my experience at both the dinner and focus group later today.
Had my presentation been videod, it would have made an excellent Uube presentation on how not to do a presentation.
As for the gripes I sometimes forget Dan suffers from Barney Fife syndrome. LOL

To all forum members.

Stay focus!!! Paigowdan has made great suggestions to improve the next focus group. Pacman has listened. I believe 14 new game is way too much to handle in that short of a time. (He even took one of his game out.) Too much for the judges to digest all at once. This format is way better!

Let us all be civil in this tread. There is a gripe thread you can start if you want to air some dirty laundry but let's not do it here.

As for the scoring, can you start so that all member starts with 120 points so that no one ends with a negative number. My score was 10 sounds a lot less worse than I scored -110.

Pacman, I knew that you would have more than 10 game developers wanting to show of their gamse and by accomidating it backfired. This format should be much better. It is not first come first serve so you guys have time to submit what you want to show. Good luck to all.

My own under-over line on me was -80. And I would have bet on the over LOL