Should casinos provide live gaming access to the handicapped?
Poll
 | 13 votes (68.42%) | ||
| | 6 votes (31.57%) |
19 members have voted
Is this something the casino industry should be investigating?
Is this something any companies are perusing?
Is this something any companies should be perusing?
Some things, like slots would probably be *relatively* easy to make accommodations for most disabilities. I would guess that if you can manage to press the "max bet" button, a casino employee would be willing to cash you in and out (and expect a tip).
Blackjack and other games where only verbal commands are required, probably wouldn't be hard if you have a friend moving the chips for you. I don't know if a dealer would be allowed to move chips for a quadriplegic. A casino might accommodate this on a case-by-case basis.
I imagine the cost for something like craps would be prohibitive (depending on the disability). Could someone make software and hardware to allow someone to use breath or eye controls for something like speed roulette? Sure, but that's a large amount of work for a small market. If not legally required, I don't see casinos bending over backwards, unless it was a whale.
A quick Google search tells me Stephen Hawking is worth $20 million. If he asked the Wynn for a $5 million credit line, I'm sure they would find some way to let him play craps. But it would probably just be a proxy moving the chips and rolling the dice for him. I don't see them inventing a whole system. If $100 slots (or VP) was his game, they might modify a machine so he can use it.
Does anyone know if casinos will provide assistants for disabled gamblers?
If there is enough demand, this could be a good niche market for online casinos. They could make it interactive with commercially available screen readers or Braille output.
discflikr, I say what I believe. If you don't agree with it because I didn't put it into some sort of 1's & 0's so you'd get all tingly, I can't help you.
Quote: dudestupidIf $100 slots (or VP) was his game, they might modify a machine so he can use it.
Does anyone know if casinos will provide assistants for disabled gamblers?
I'm sure whales with limitations have their own assistants. As for the rest... never seen first-hand.
Quote: JerryLoganWho's Stephen Hawking?
You are either not a real person or much more than merely handicapped.
Information for special needs visitors from LV advisor.
It says Wynn and Planet Hollywood have some dealers that know Sign Language. Bally's used to have a Ray Charles-themed Braille slot machine, but this apparently didn't catch on.
There are machines that allow the deaf and blind to play bingo, and these are available in most of the Vegas bingo rooms.
Quote: discflicker
JERK!!!
I think sad individual who is quite lonely is a better description.
What he said is no worse than when he said he peeps on the young girls in the next yard. He is a sick person who needs to make trouble here due to his need to get attention that he obviously does not receive in the real world.
But to answer the question if the casino see it will make money by it they will. I don't think the technology is there yet.
We also have a deaf and mute customer, a lady who suffers from dwarfism, and a blind person amongst others.
Quote: JerryLoganOK I just looked up Hawking, and I've honestly never heard of him.
He is among one of the most famous people in the world. Like Einstein he is well known to the non-scientists of the world. They even make fun of him on Family Guy, and he appeared on The Simpsons.
Hawking communicates with the outside world via a special computer, otherwise, his disabilities preclude him from expressing any of the 184 IQ genious that is surely pent up in his mind. He might like to play a nice live game of craps, why not? He's way smarter than any so-called smart gamers on this forum, by gum! We all like to play, right?
He will need to play a computer assisted game, obviously.
He might want to play on a couple of different tables, like one by company A and another by ShuffleMaster.
For his computer to be able to "plug into" either of the gaming systems that run tables, a STANDARD INTERFACE must be available and used by all 3 companies.
This is an example of what the industry could do to help accomodate handicapped players.
I mean yes -- we should provide them the same rights.
But as I don't see gambling, or drinking as a particular boon to society, so I'm not like all over this. And yet, I don't oppose it.
So, I mean, for me, I would rather spend my time focusing on other things.
Quote: JerryLoganI'm not in favor of this because I don't believe cripples should be wasting their time in casinos. These places are for the young & vibrant and others of means, but if the local casinos want to add them to their base of local degenerates who come in to throw whatever money they get through entitlements into the poker and keno machines, that's fine with me as long as I don't have to look at them in the more upscale resorts I visit.
With this post Jerry becomes the first casualty of my newly added Nuclear Option, rule #12.
Say goodbye to Jerry everybody.
Quote: rxwineI wouldn't specifically oppose this, yet, here's how I see it. If you asked me instead, should we make access to bars and saloons for the handicapped much easier?
I mean yes -- we should provide them the same rights.
But as I don't see gambling, or drinking as a particular boon to society, so I'm not like all over this. And yet, I don't oppose it.
So, I mean, for me, I would rather spend my time focusing on other things.
CLARIFICATION: I'm not really suggesting that the hadicapped have a RIGHT to gamble, or that it should be mandated in the name of equal rights.
I'm looking at it more as a business opportunity. In that sense, the question is "is there a marketable opprtunity", or better yet, is there any return on investment? And I'm just trying to get a poll of that... is it worthwhile, yes or no?
Quote: WizardWith this post Jerry becomes the first casualty of my newly added Nuclear Option, rule #12.
Say goodbye to Jerry everybody.
Thanks, Mike. He had plenty of time to remove that comment, but chose not to.
Free speech is one thing, but he crossed the line when he commited (what I consider to be) a hate crime.
I knew I could help this forum out some how!
Quote: WizardWith this post Jerry becomes the first casualty of my newly added Nuclear Option, rule #12.
I hope you realize that by banning both Jerry and MKL at the same time, you've upset the natural equilibrium of the universe and odd things are bound to happen. People will misspell words with nobody to correct them. Someone will say they drive a VW and they won't be mocked. You're best bet is to purchase their souls and be done with them both.
Quote: discflickerI knew I could help this forum out some how!
Actually, somebody else sent me a PM about it too, which I read first. However, you two can share the credit. I won't mention the other name, per my rule about not quoting from private communication.
Quote: EvenBobI hope you realize that by banning both Jerry and MKL at the same time, you've upset the natural equilibrium of the universe and odd things are bound to happen. People will misspell words with nobody to correct them. Someone will say they drive a VW and they won't be mocked. You're best bet is to purchase their souls and be done with them both.
Things will indeed be strange without both of them for seven days.
Quote: WizardActually, somebody else sent me a PM about it too, which I read first. However, you two can share the credit. I won't mention the other name, per my rule about not quoting from private communication.
Things will indeed be strange without both of them for seven days.
Not strange. Quiet, and maybe pleasant, but definitely not strange.
Quote: JerryLoganI'm not in favor of this because I don't believe cripples should be wasting their time in casinos. These places are for the young & vibrant and others of means, but if the local casinos want to add them to their base of local degenerates who come in to throw whatever money they get through entitlements into the poker and keno machines, that's fine with me as long as I don't have to look at them in the more upscale resorts I visit.
I have never really seen many of your posts, as your nearly always banned, and to be honest I thought you were a bit like the class clown. But now I just think your a moron, I thought evolution had eradicated people you like you, but I guess I was wrong. The sooner you are permanently banned, the better. You have no place here.
Quote: WizardofEnglandI have never really seen many of your posts, as your nearly always banned, and to be honest I thought you were a bit like the class clown. But now I just think your a moron, I thought evolution had eradicated people you like you, but I guess I was wrong. The soon you are permanently banned, the better. You have no place here.
He already is Permabanned by the Wizard. The hammer came down earlier, and I for one am grateful.
1) have that view
2) think its funny
Quote: WizardofEnglandI have never really seen many of your posts, as your nearly always banned, and to be honest I thought you were a bit like the class clown. But now I just think your a moron, I thought evolution had eradicated people you like you, but I guess I was wrong. The sooner you are permanently banned, the better. You have no place here.
Check out the movie IDIOCRACY
During the prologue, a narrator (Earl Mann) explains that in modern society, natural selection is indifferent toward intelligence. In a society in which stupid people easily out-breed the intelligent, the result is a world that has degenerated into a barely functioning society held together by a rapidly crumbling, mostly automated technological infrastructure that was created by intelligent individuals many years (perhaps centuries) earlier that few, if any, of the less intelligent members of 26th Century society know how to operate or fix. In the 26th Century, highway overpasses have collapsed, structurally failing buildings are tied together for support, automated vacuuming systems barely function, voice-prompted machinery regularly misinterprets commands, computers automatically lay off workers without anybody knowing how to stop it, nuclear power plants leak and go unrepaired, and buildings often have huge holes in their roofs.
Here's a news flash: Handicapped people know they're handicapped, and know the world wasn't designed for handicapped people to thrive in. As a result, they either do their best to adapt to the non-handicapped world, or do without certain things.
Should the casinos be required to, or even voluntarily, design specific slot machines for handicap use? No. If you make a select few machines specifically for the handicapped, it creates an aura of distrust and/or doubt whether those machines payback the same as other machines. Since most casinos already designate certain machine clusters to have specific paybacks, it becomes a logistic nightmare to include some handicap machines in every group. Therefore, it should either be all or nothing. Simple economics dictates that it be nothing.
On the other hand, I do find it surprising how casinos generally have, at most, only one table game that is shorter, so that someone in a wheelchair can join in. Although short tables mean a chair must be provided for the dealer, chairs (and tables) cost slightly less when they are the short variety. And many people prefer sitting in the standard height chairs rather than tall chairs.
It saddens me to admit this, but Jerry is right about one thing. Stephen Hawking is NOT a household name.Quote: JerryLoganWho's Stephen Hawking?
While I have known about him for years, the only time I ever saw him 'move' or heard him 'speak' was in the Star Trek TNG episode where he played himself.
I just did a brief survey of the people in my office. 3 out of 7 people knew the name. 2 more recalled him once his handicap was described.
Wait a second... IS THIS JERRY?Quote: DJTeddyBearHere's a news flash: Handicapped people know they're handicapped, and know the world wasn't designed for handicapped people to thrive in. As a result, they either do their best to adapt to the non-handicapped world, or do without certain things.
Quote: DJTeddyBearShould the casinos be required to, or even voluntarily, design specific slot machines for handicap use? No. If you make a select few machines specifically for the handicapped, it creates an aura of distrust and/or doubt whether those machines payback the same as other machines. Since most casinos already designate certain machine clusters to have specific paybacks, it becomes a logistic nightmare to include some handicap machines in every group.
DJ, the question is specifically about an industry-wide effort to provide handicapped access for LIVE gaming (you know, LIVE craps, LIVE roulette), yes or no.
Slot machines have no bearing upon this question because these are NOT slots, these are player gaming stations; they function EXACTLY the same as a player sitting in a certain seat making bets with real chips in a live game of craps. These stations, or kiosks, or terminals, or whatever you want to call them, ONLY function to facilitate chip-less gaming.
Confusing these with slot machines is exactly like saying people will be suspicious if they sit at a table that has lower seats (the ones for handicapped you mentioned). They dont "pay-out" any differently between them, them don't "pay-out" at all.
You then go on confusing the issue further by discussing "machine clustering" which has nothing to do with where players sit at a LIVE game... LIVE, YOU KNOW, LIVE, standing around a large wooden non-virtual Roulette table.
And then, your conclusion is:
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Therefore, it should either be all or nothing. Simple economics dictates that it be nothing.
Which makes no sense and yet conflicts with your opening statement of:
Quote: DJTeddyBearYes, casinos SHOULD provide live gaming access to the handicapped - but only to a certain point.
OK, you got me DJ, WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? I know I’ve written some very complex posts and you act as though you don’t understand them. Is this some twisted kind of payback or did you really not understand the simple question?
BTW, If the answer to the question is yes, this same effort will help get your bet into production, as we've discussed in your thread.
Quote: WizardThings will indeed be strange without both of them for seven days.
I nominate strange to be the new normal ;)
I indicated why nothing should be done to change slot machines, unless the change applies to every slot machine in the casino. I also indicated that changing all the machines is not economical.Quote: discflickerOK, you got me DJ, WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?Quote: DJTeddyBearYes, casinos SHOULD provide live gaming access to the handicapped - but only to a certain point.
I also indicated that lowering table heights for live games not only enables more handicapped / wheelchair bound players to play, but would not cost much, and might actually be preferred by the non-handicapped players. For those reasons, it surprises me that there aren't more short tables than there are.
The "only to a certain point" comment was simply that they should do whatever is economically feasable. Adding more short tables is feasable. Anything beyond that is not.
Quote: WizardWith this post Jerry becomes the first casualty of my newly added Nuclear Option, rule #12.
Say goodbye to Jerry everybody.
How about good riddance instead of good bye?
Am I the only one who thinks his whole purpose was to make this site hostile and unfriendly since Jerry's Lord and Master (RS) is thought to be a rather silly individual here?
Jerry is of dubious antecedents and conjectural progeny who I am sure will find another website to yell "Pay attention to me".
According to the ADA, which was passed in 1992, the proprietors have to make reasonable accomodations for the handicapped.
If the casino hasn't changed since 1992, then it will stay in compliance. Becasue it doesn't have to upgrade. If it decides to upgrade, then it needs to make ADA-compliant changes to those areas that it is working on. If you have steps, you need to put in a ramp, or Wider Doors for easier acces, and all the handles in the bathroom. THere are lots of things that are being done already to ease the way for the handicapped.
They do not have to offer reasonable access to all people with all handicaps. A Steven Hawking at the Craps Table? He would have, and most para's have, a normal-abled assistant when they travel outside the home. Either family or paid, as the economic conditions of the handicapped dictate. etc. So, Mr Hawking could calculate the bets and tell his assistant to place the bets as needed, and even throw the dice for him. Same thing at the Wheel or card tables.
The Casino can also offer platforms for use by the handicapped to get to the higher table level. That is reasonable accomadation. Slot Machines can have an adjustment that moves the machine up and down as needed, much like the steering wheel in your car. The wall under the machine can be 24-30" back of the front of the machine instead of 18".
A blind player would need assitance at any table, as they can hear the calls, but they can not place thier bets, once again, either a assistant is with them, or the casino can provide one to help with the bet placement. It can ask that the Blind person stand next to the stick or base. A deaf person may need to understand the bets before coming to the table, a small request that we make of ALL bettors.... Or they have a hearing friend with them that can ASL to them. A Casino may have a interperer on staff, and if notified, may be available to provide assistance.
As for on-line casinos, they do not have a problem. They have a interface already. The Handicapped person has to work out the interface from thier position to the screen. Which, if they are capable of that, EVERYTHING is available on the internet.
BTW, I have a brother in a wheelchair. I KNOW how hard it is to get around. It is better now than it was 30 years ago, it is still difficult.
SFB
Quote: DJTeddyBearI indicated why nothing should be done to change slot machines, unless the change applies to every slot machine in the casino. I also indicated that changing all the machines is not economical.
I also indicated that lowering table heights for live games not only enables more handicapped / wheelchair bound players to play, but would not cost much, and might actually be preferred by the non-handicapped players. For those reasons, it surprises me that there aren't more short tables than there are.
The "only to a certain point" comment was simply that they should do whatever is economically feasable. Adding more short tables is feasable. Anything beyond that is not.
DJ, ONCE AGAIN, slot machines have absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion, you're only confusing everyone by even mentioning them in the context of the topic of this thread, which by the way is NOT about Jerry Logan, its about industry-wide collaboration to provide handicappped access to live gaming.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI also indicated that lowering table heights for live games not only enables more handicapped / wheelchair bound players to play, but would not cost much, and might actually be preferred by the non-handicapped players. For those reasons, it surprises me that there aren't more short tables than there are.
I guess it's becasue the dealer stands at the table. A lower table would require a seated dealer (which suppose dealers woulnd't mind). I would like a lower table anyway.
Quote:The "only to a certain point" comment was simply that they should do whatever is economically feasable. Adding more short tables is feasable. Anything beyond that is not.
Oh, agreed. It would cost too much to make eveyr table and every slot accessible to every handicapped person. Even palces like Disney that accomodate lots of handicapped people have limits to whay they can do in some situations.
You still don't get it?Quote: discflickerDJ, ONCE AGAIN, slot machines have absolutely NOTHING to do with this discussion, you're only confusing everyone by even mentioning them in the context of the topic of this thread, which by the way is NOT about Jerry Logan, its about industry-wide collaboration to provide handicappped access to live gaming.
OK. See if you can understand this:
It was a comparison!
Thanks for that very informative post.
It looks like a lot of people have misunderstood what I'm specifically looking for. This one, however, is NOT the fault of my jibberish ways of expression. This time its due to just a hint of prejudice against the handicap.
The question I posed does NOT demand "equal rights" for the handicapped. It does NOT mandate casinos to install acess methods for the handicapped.
What I am looking for is a concensus that if an industry-wide effort was initiated to make these acess methods available, would it be worthwhile from a strictly MONEY MAKING point of view.
But as soon as a lot of folks hear the words "handicapped access", they immediately assume its a civil matter of human rights, and don't bother with the not-so-fine print.
Thanks for your reply!
Quote: s2dbakerFrom a selfish point of view, being ambulatory and only slightly myopic and with a smidge of tinnitus, I can say that I could only hope that all casinos were ADA compliant, not just in the letter of the law but in the spirit as well. Trying to walk around some of the casinos with all of the games crammed into a corner is annoying. Every isle should be wide enough for two wheelchairs to pass each other. Craps tables should be lower and have chairs or at least stools, and not just one table, all of them. I find that what's good for people with disabilities is also good for my lazy butt. I still haven't gotten a casino scooter but someday, I may need one and I'll still want to throw the dice.
Can you drive the scooter and use the forward velocity to throw the dice without moving the wrist?
Quote: DJTeddyBearYou still don't get it?
OK. See if you can understand this:
It was a comparison!
No its not a comparison unless you call comparing apples to oranges a comparison. You know what I'm talking about by now, right? Why confuse the issue with meaningless and confusing information?
Here's some questions for yaz, DJ:
If this effort was initiated, even if it were only for the benifit of the handicapped, would it help jump-start the introduction of electronic "PLACE YOUR BETS" signalling into live table games?
Does your side bet depend on this exact signalling as a pre-requeste for it implementation?
For the above two reasons alone, don't you want to see this effort go forward?
Will an un-sucessful discussion here in this thread help get this effort get started?
No? Then why are you continuing to disrupt it with dis-information about slot machines?
Well, at least it still on topic. Thanks DJ, at least for that. And DJ, I do value your opinions.
No.Quote: discflickerCan you drive the scooter and use the forward velocity to throw the dice without moving the wrist?
Dice cannot be taken beyond the edge of the table, so there wouldn't be enough velocity to get them to hit the far wall - or even to pass the center of the table.
I probably wouldn't get the dice to bounce off of the back wall as required by the rules. But I think the arms would still be working. The knees .. not so much.Quote: discflickerCan you drive the scooter and use the forward velocity to throw the dice without moving the wrist?
Hmmm....Quote: discflickerNo? Then why are you continuing to disrupting it with dis-information about slot machines?
SFB included slot machines in his response and you didn't call him out on that, did you? Why pick on me?
No.Quote: discflickerDoes your side bet depend on this exact signalling as a pre-requeste for it implementation?
No one has mentioned the mentally handicapped. Would a casino "accomodation" be interpreted as "predatory"? I have seen plenty of individuals with diminished mental capacity in casinos (Down's syndrome, brain injuries). I have mixed feelings about it, as I was not certain some of them knew what they were doing, however, it is their money, so who was I to judge. Who decides when an individual is not capable of fairly participating?
Link: Virginia Lottery article
I read the article. Unless I missed something, they are NOT making lottery specific modifications. They are merely using the lottery as a pawn in getting the retailers entire establishment to be ADA compliant.Quote: FarFromVegasIt may end up being mandated by law at some point, so it is worth it to begin investigating the necessary technology and accomodations now. Virginia is now beginning to require lottery retailers to provide access for those with disabilities to their lottery products. I would have thought a retailer would have already had to have this under ADA, but they are making lottery-specific modifications.
Link: Virginia Lottery article
Many retailers may have the opinion that they are not losing much business to handicapped consumers by not being ADA compliant. They may be correct in that assesment. But convenience stores make a ton of money off their lottery business. If they could lose their lottery concession because they're not ADA compliant, they'll get compliant quick.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI read the article. Unless I missed something, they are NOT making lottery specific modifications. They are merely using the lottery as a pawn in getting the retailers entire establishment to be ADA compliant.Quote: FarFromVegasIt may end up being mandated by law at some point, so it is worth it to begin investigating the necessary technology and accomodations now. Virginia is now beginning to require lottery retailers to provide access for those with disabilities to their lottery products. I would have thought a retailer would have already had to have this under ADA, but they are making lottery-specific modifications.
Link: Virginia Lottery article
Many retailers may have the opinion that they are not losing much business to handicapped consumers by not being ADA compliant. They may be correct in that assesment. But convenience stores make a ton of money off their lottery business. If they could lose their lottery concession because they're not ADA compliant, they'll get compliant quick.
I just thought it was odd they were using the lottery to get stores up to code, which is what I meant by lottery-specific. I would have thought it would be more important to have access to milk and bread, but they are going after the lottery. So I figure that even though casino gaming isn't a high priority in most people's lives, the time may be coming when accessibility will be mandated so you may as well start preparing for it.
Quote: DJTeddyBearHmmm....
SFB included slot machines in his response and you didn't call him out on that, did you? Why pick on me?
SFB was answering under the assumption that the topic of this thread was about the rights of handicapped people to play in a casino. You know better.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
No.
No? What do you mean No? It is clearly stated in all of your requirements and is the exact topic of all the threads I have posted about your bet (a shitload of them). It is why I'm bothering to post on this forum at all! No? Please DJ, explain....
Are you gonna say that I called a phase an ABD signal vs. an "Industry accepted signal known as No More Bets"?
Quote: AyecarumbaI would assume a Hawking-like communication device could be easily modified to count and track cards. There could even be mini video and digital recorders installed in the hardware to "peek" at hole cards, or analyze roulette wheel/ball velocities. It opens some security problems.
No one has mentioned the mentally handicapped. Would a casino "accomodation" be interpreted as "predatory"? I have seen plenty of individuals with diminished mental capacity in casinos (Down's syndrome, brain injuries). I have mixed feelings about it, as I was not certain some of them knew what they were doing, however, it is their money, so who was I to judge. Who decides when an individual is not capable of fairly participating?
Unfortunately it is not up to the creators of such interfaces to make those decisions. i don't think its up to the game designers either. I think it's up to the local casino. This is a goood topic for discussion, thanks for mentioning it.
Quote: discflickerNo? What do you mean No? It is clearly stated in all of your requirements and is the exact topic of all the threads I have posted about your bet (a shitload of them). It is why I'm bothering to post on this forum at all! No? Please DJ, explain....
Maybe I misunderstood the question, but my bet does not require any sort of electronic means of telling the gambler when they can or cannot place the bet. It only needs an electronic means of recognizing that a bet has been made.
My concept DOES include a provision for alerting the gambler and/or dealer when a bet was placed at the wrong time. It can also treat such an action as a bet placed ahead of time, for the NEXT opportunity to place it.
Quote: DJTeddyBearMaybe I misunderstood the question, but my bet does not require any sort of electronic means of telling the gambler when they can or cannot place the bet. It only needs an electronic means of recognizing that a bet has been made.
My concept DOES include a provision for alerting the gambler and/or dealer when a bet was placed at the wrong time. It can also treat such an action as a bet placed ahead of time, for the NEXT opportunity to place it.
DJ Teddy Bear
Your wager needs a lot more than what you can possibly describe for me in 2 sentences.
It needs to be fully in synch with the various states the game server might be in, and you need to account for EVERY POSSIBLE COMBINATION of ALL of these situations and the transitions that take place between each of these states:
· Game On-line
· Game Off-Line
· Dealer Logged In
· Dealer Logged Out
· Database Update In-Progress
· Individual Player On-line
· Individual Player Off-Line
· All Bets Down (ABD… its my system I will call my signals by the names I gave them 22 years ago)
· Cancel ABD
· "RollEm"
· Payouts In Progresses
· Payouts Complete
And that is the complete list. Now be honest DJ, please, did you account for all of these situations? Better question, now that you know about these issues, do you STILL think that you don’t need “electronic signaling” for your wager?
