DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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June 20th, 2012 at 10:12:06 AM permalink
As I've been promising for a few days, I finally uploaded my new website: Poker For Roulette. The major changes, obviously, are the addition of three and four spin versions.


When I was working with The Wiz on my five spin version, he kept telling me "Keep It Simple!" It was almost like a mantra. The one simplification thing neither of us thought about, was to make it fewer spins.

But doing this also eliminated another problem that Mike objected to. He felt that, since the 0 and 00 can't be fully wild (because it created WAY too many winners), that it should be eliminated entirely. I wanted to keep it as it was, just for wild straight and wild five of a kind. Wild straight primarily to prevent confusion about 0,1,2,3,4 being a straight but 00,1,2,3,4 is not. But I added a rule that there could only be one wild green used. This did not sit well with the Keep It Simple mantra.


The feed back I got from the ShuffleMaster Focus Group on May 2nd, as well as the comments from the Master himself, Roger Snow, on May 4th, convinced me that doing a version with fewer spins would be better.

So I noodled it around a bit and realized that the three spin version fixed a lot of problems. I could have the 0 and 00 be fully wild, since, with only three spins, the chances of it appearing were deminished. With only three spins, I've overcome the big objection from the focus group that five spins was too long to wait. And most important, since the greens are fully wild, as soon as one appears, you know that, at the minimum of a Wild Pair, you're automatically a winner.

What do you think?

---

For what it's worth, I then did the four spin version because it was something of a back burner project anyway. Not so much that I had originally thought that it might be better than the 5 spin version, but because it (or a six spin version!) would be needed by any new Roulette system that obtains two results in one spin, such as TCS John Huxley's Double Action Roulette.

This has the added bonus of obtaining a result in only TWO spins!

---

I'm keeping the 5 spin version because I think it would work best for Roulette slot machines and online casinos, where stakes can be smaller and gamblers are more likely to play for an extended period.

---

FYI: Going forward, I'd like to keep the discussion here, but the prior thread about Poker For Roulette is here:
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3259-poker-for-roulette-side-bet/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
bigfoot66
bigfoot66
Joined: Feb 5, 2010
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June 20th, 2012 at 10:22:46 AM permalink
Best of Luck Dave. My gut reaction is that the 3 spin version is better. I'm sure this has crossed your mind, but is there way to pay the same for wilds as naturals? I feel like paying less for a wild makes seeing that 0 come up a mild bummer.

Or How about instead of calling it a wild pair you just say 1 "0" pays X, 2 0's or 1 0 + pair pays Y, that way it doesn't sound like a wild is worth less than a natural...

This is just off the top of my head...
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Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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June 20th, 2012 at 10:50:42 AM permalink
This feels like a move in the right direction to me too. I must admit I never thought of using three spins. Probably the title of the bet kept me locked into thinking of five spins as a given. You might keep an open mind to changing the name, like the "Roulette Trifecta" or something like that. I would also suggest a pay table option with a lower house edge. If forced, the 5% to 7% range.

What I think everyone can take from this is it takes some actual play for some weaknesses in a game to bubble up. The math is not the beginning, middle, and end of the story. In your case, you pretty much need a normal roulette wheel to get a feel for the pacing of the game, which few people have sitting in their basement.

I think this change can only help your odds.

Thanks also for not asking me to redo the math. I have pretty much washed my hands of that kind of consulting.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
hook3670
hook3670
Joined: May 17, 2011
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June 20th, 2012 at 11:07:08 AM permalink
Good luck with your game. I think it feels like a more streamlined and much easier version. My only suggestion would be to echo Mike and say possibly lower the house edge to under double didgets.
Nareed
Nareed
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June 20th, 2012 at 11:19:54 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You might keep an open mind to changing the name, like the "Roulette Trifecta" or something like that.



If Shufflemaster picks it up, they pretty much have to call it "Three Card Poker For Roulette."
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Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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June 20th, 2012 at 11:23:59 AM permalink
Or...Three Spin Win.....
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strictlyAP
strictlyAP
Joined: Jun 20, 2012
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June 20th, 2012 at 11:36:46 AM permalink
no offense but from a first perspective its a little difficult to follow from the average consumer standpoint in my opinion- id also make the website a little simpler
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
mustangsally
mustangsally
Joined: Mar 29, 2011
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June 20th, 2012 at 12:05:26 PM permalink
A 40% hit rate, a lot coming from the Flush
This seems quite high.

Side bets in 3 Card Poker, even games like Video Poker, the hit rate is somewhere around the 25% range.

Would Roulette players even want a side bet that pays even money or 2 to 1?

The regular game already offers this.
I would throw away those and build more *thrill* into the side bet. (a higher SD/EV)
IMO, Lower the hit rate and increase the payouts.

Do you have the variance for the different pay tables?
Not that hard to make.

Sally
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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June 20th, 2012 at 12:41:56 PM permalink
Thanks for all the replies.

A couple quick points:

I'm not married to the pay table. If the casino wants a different house edge, I'll give it to them. Hell, if they want, I'll give them the Excel formula to play with it themselves.

I'm not married to the name either.

My patent covers this type of change.



Quote: bigfoot66

is there way to pay the same for wilds as naturals? I feel like paying less for a wild makes seeing that 0 come up a mild bummer.

"Mild bummer"? Most of the time that the green comes up, the hand would otherwise be a loser.



Quote: Wizard

This feels like a move in the right direction to me too.

Thanks. That means a lot coming from you.
Quote: Wizard

Thanks also for not asking me to redo the math. I have pretty much washed my hands of that kind of consulting.

I knew that even before you took the Venetian job. I was thinking about sending you a brief "Whadda think?" email. Your full reply above pretty much gives me the answer. Thanks.



Quote: strictlyAP

no offense but from a first perspective its a little difficult to follow from the average consumer standpoint in my opinion- id also make the website a little simpler

I know. But the website's target audience is NOT the "average consumer." To a certain extent, it's not even you guys.

I designed it for casino and game distributor decision makers.



Quote: mustangsally

A 40% hit rate, a lot coming from the Flush.
This seems quite high.

I agree.

Did you look at Paytables Three and Four? Those don't pay the flush.

(Hmmm... Maybe I should redesign the paytable page so all four are across the page...)




Once again, thanks for the comments and critique.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
EvenBob
EvenBob
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June 20th, 2012 at 1:55:49 PM permalink
As someone who plays nothing but roulette, my immediate feeling
is that poker has nothing to do with roulette, why combine the two.
Roulette is already too complicated for most people, thats why you
see them betting nothing but the inside numbers. They don't understand
the other bets and don't ask because they're afraid of looking dumb.
Adding poker to the mix will just give them even more to be confused
about.

My overwhelming reaction is roulette is already a slow game. A table
with 3-4 players averages about 30 spins an hour. 5-6 players and
its 25 spins an hour. A really crowded table on Fri or Sat night is lucky
to do 20 an hour. Adding a complicated side bet like this can't help
but slow down an already slow game. Its just one more thing to slow
the dealer down. Roulette is already not popular with dealers because
there is so much to keep track of and its very easy to make mistakes
Adding a whole other game on top of roulette can't help but slow it
to a crawl, which its already at when its busy.

A good example of a roulette side bet is the dragon. A picture of
a dragon is on the layout and winds its way thru 12 numbers. Its
just another dozen bet and is easy for the dealer and players to
understand. Poker for roulette is complicated and as such, will
turn people off. They can't even understand street and corner bets
now, how are you going to explain three card poker hands to them.

You're payouts are admirable, 10,000/1, 500/1. But those combinations
of numbers happen very seldom, and when people realize that
they'll stop playing the game. The reason they bet the inside numbers
is the big 35/1 payout happens all the time. They know they have a
chance at it, somebody wins it on almost every spin. You will get
old and grey waiting for your big money hands in poker to pay off,
they just don't happen very often. The psychology of roulette is its
very easy to get lucky, to spread a few chips on the numbers and
hit 2-3 in a row and make real money on a small investment. In
Poker for Roulette, it will be very hard to get lucky, nearly impossible.
So whats their incentive to play.

Anyway, you asked, I wish it was better news.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

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