mrsuit31
mrsuit31
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August 18th, 2012 at 8:31:05 PM permalink
Money$uit Industries LLC. is releasing the "Last digit To Win It Bonus" wager. The "Last Digit To Win It Bonus" wager is a Multi-roll side wager that offers players the ability to win very large payoffs while playing roulette, while changing the standard roulette dynamic by using the numbers in an entirely new innovative way. The wager is placed by a player placing the desired amount in their respective “Last Digit To Win It Bonus” wager circle. The wager is determined by the combined outcomes of numbers rolled over a consecutive 5 roll string. Each roll of the string, the last digit of the number rolled will be the number used to determine winners for this wager (16=6, 22=2, 1=1, 10=0, 36=6 etc…) and will be tracked by the dealer every roll of the five roll string on the designated wager tracking table on the layout (Almost identical to the Fire bet tracking table in craps). The last digit of the five rolls of the string will be combined to constitute a five number hand. For example, If the five rolls of a string are 5,16,25,15,26; the players hand for this 5 roll string is 5,6,5,5,6 equaling a "3 and 2". Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).


Last Digit To Win It Bonus Paytable (Double Zero Roulette)
Event / Odds/ prob
2 and 2/ 1 to 1/ .111003
Three of a kind/ 4 to 1/ .075968
3 and 2/ 10 to 1/ .009759
4 of a kind/ 20 to 1/ .005134
Five 0s-6s/ 250 to 1/ .000117
Five 7s, 8s & 9s/ 1000 to 1/ .000009
House edge = 14.44%
Hit rate= 20.20%

Last Digit To Win It Bonus Paytable (Single Zero Roulette)
Event/ Odds/ prob
2 and 2/ 1 to 1/ .109955
Three of a kind/ 4 to 1/ .074394
3 and 2/ 12 to 1/ .009465
4 of a kind/ 20 to 1/ .004860
Five 0s-6s/ 250 to 1/ .000103
Five 7s, 8s & 9s/ 1000 to 1/ .000011

House edge = 14.66%
Hit Rate= 19.88%

The wager is operated in a 100% manual fashion, that has a very minimal if any effect on the rolls per hour and needs nothing more than a new layout and markers to operate. The procedure is as follows.

1. At the Start of each new string (upon the table opening or the completion of the previous five roll string) the dealer will announce to players that a new string is beginning and that they may place this wager at this time.

2. The players who have placed this wager, the dealer will take the players wager from the players wager circle and place it in that players respective numbered wager tracking circle surrounding the wager tracking table.

3. After this action the game will continue as under typical roulette procedures.

4. Each of the subsequent 5 rolls after the wager has been activated, the dealer will mark the last digit of each number rolled with a puck labeled with a 1-5 to correspond with the sequence in which the respective numbers had been rolled on the wager tracking table. (Similar to how the Fire bet is tracked in craps)

5. Upon completion of the fifth roll of the string, the dealer will determine if anyone is eligible for a payout on this wager as described on the “Last Digit To Win It Bonus” paytable and payout on or collect losing wagers accordingly.

6. Once all wagers are resolved the dealer will then remove the five discs from the wager tracking table and start over beginning with procedure 1.
.
andysif
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August 18th, 2012 at 10:05:41 PM permalink
and you don't feel ashame introducing a game with 14% house edge.
Mission146
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August 18th, 2012 at 11:08:12 PM permalink
Why should he? Know the game, know the Rules, know the HE, all readily available information.

If someone wanted to play a game called, "You lay a dollar on the table, we take it," with a 100% HE, is it not the person's choice to play the game? Should the person not educate themselves by asking, "So, I put this dollar here, and you take it, no other possible result?" The dealer then says, "Yup, that's the only thing that can happen on this game." The player would then say, "Oh, I don't want to play this."

I would say to the OP, "I don't want to play this," because I have been educated on the game by reading his post and the HE is positively horrific. However, he shouldn't feel ashamed.

By the way, check out his Money$uits 31 game, I've been playing the demo for hours, it is fantastic!!! The HE comes in at under 3% on that one.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Paigowdan
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August 19th, 2012 at 12:53:09 AM permalink
Quote: andysif

and you don't feel ashame introducing a game with 14% house edge.


And why should he? What gambling hall business would ever offer a game with either no edge at all, or a negative house edge, to offer a very deamnding and busy service. Would YOU run a gambling out fit under these conditions and gambling losses? Not for a second.
Think about that: why would you ever expect a gambling hall or casino to offer a game for free, or that they'd even LOSE money on - dealing to guys like you and me? Oooh...what a treat!

Basically, the house edge on betting games are basically structured:
1. Even money main bets should around 2% to 3% for basically 50-50 main bets/flat bets.
2. multi-element bonus paytables that pays from 3:1 up to 30:1 or higher should be in the 7% to 14%
3. A high-payout table jackpot table should be in the 25% range (progressives, etc)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 19th, 2012 at 5:41:31 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Paigowdan
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August 19th, 2012 at 8:41:50 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You can't fault the inventer but only the masses that play them.

Would I play this bet, no. Not even if it were only a 2% HE, but typical roulette players will probably love it hoping for that 1000:1 payoff especially if its only a buck or two minimum.



Side bets and progressives are popular precisely for that reason - a chance to "hit big" when playing an otherwise Plain-Jane even money game.
Anyone who looks for a game with no house edge just finds no game anymore. gotta pay to play.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Mission146
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August 20th, 2012 at 9:06:10 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You can't fault the inventer but only the masses that play them.

Would I play this bet, no. Not even if it were only a 2% HE, but typical roulette players will probably love it hoping for that 1000:1 payoff especially if its only a buck or two minimum.



That's a really good point. If I were $50 or more ahead, I might throw down a White on the bet just for the heck of it. It's certainly not going to be my main bet, though. Of course, Roulette isn't my main game, and might not be my game at all anymore. I don't know why, but as days go by, it interests me less and less.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DJTeddyBear
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August 20th, 2012 at 10:15:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

It's certainly not going to be my main bet, though.

You mean you may treat it like a - wait for it - side bet ?

But seriously...

I happened to be in Sands PA yesterday, and was talking to a floorman about Poker For Roulette. I told him "It's a side bet for Roulette." His immediate reaction was, "Everything about Roulette is a Side Bet!" We laughed, then I told him my concept and he perked up real quick and wanted to know if I had talked to anyone there, etc. I think he's going to hook me up with a meeting with either the casino manager or director of table games. :)
Last edited by: DJTeddyBear on Mar 21, 2021
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paradigm
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August 20th, 2012 at 12:04:27 PM permalink
Interesting side bet.....here are my initial comments:

1) I don't even think you need player specific bet circles around the tracking table as all the players will be using their specific Roulette color chips to make the bet, right?

2) I don't quite understand what the tracking table will look like, so post a layout when you get one ready. Also, does it matter which numbers are generated by which of the 5 spins. Seems like you would just need blank lammers to mark each number when generated....you don't really care what spin the number was generated on do you? Just trying to figure out why you have numbered lammers 1 - 5 (I may be missing something that will become more obvious once I see the layout).

3) I think hit rate and HE are about right......you tend to get into the low double digit HE's when you are looking at a side bet with a four digit payout potential. Look at the Fire bet in craps at like 20%....it just comes with the territory when you have big payoff potential.

4) The 19%-20% hit rate for this bet is going to keep them engaged along with the "journey" of the bet. You are only going to have the last spin as potentially a dead spin if you don't have any pairs through four spins. Having said that, I would have said the same thing about DJ's PFR, but five spins was a big negative at the SHFL goup. I am not sure I agree with this push back on five spins, but it was present. Seems like Roulette players sit there for hours and play. Wonder what you could come up with for a 3 Spin Digit variant as DJ has instituted for PFR.

5) Being able to track this manually on the felt is a big plus for this over DJ's PFR, but it comes at the price of 6) below so....???

6) How many completed bet strings will you have in an hour of play? Seems like to me that you are lucky to get 35 - 40 spins per hour and if it is busy maybe only 25-30 per hour. That means you are only going to have between 5 - 8 completed cylces of the five spins per hour. Let's assume that you have 8 players at the table, you put a $3 min on this bet, and get 75% participation. You get $3*6 players * 7 cycles per hour. This equates to $126 per hour wagered on this bet with a 20% house edge. You are looking at $25 per hour of theo win under max play types of conditions.

I don't know if this is enough to command much of a rental rate from the casino. To be honest, I don't know what is an acceptable rate for a casino to pay as a percentage of the expected theo win. Any input from PaiGowDan/Pacman/Wiz/ME/Others on that one would be interesting.

That is what I got M$31.....good job on another concept totally separate from the Money$uit 31 game. Shows you have more games in that brain of yours, keep working them! You may need to change the name of that LLC if some of these other concepts catch hold!
MathExtremist
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August 20th, 2012 at 5:15:35 PM permalink
Quote: andysif

and you don't feel ashame introducing a game with 14% house edge.


It's 14% over 5 rolls. That's far better than the normal American roulette bets which are 5.26% for one roll. From a player's expectation per hour standpoint, this is the best bet on the table. It loses less than half as much per hour as any other bet. (You might make the edge higher...)
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Mission146
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August 20th, 2012 at 6:40:18 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

It's 14% over 5 rolls. That's far better than the normal American roulette bets which are 5.26% for one roll. From a player's expectation per hour standpoint, this is the best bet on the table. It loses less than half as much per hour as any other bet. (You might make the edge higher...)



This is an excellent point. Your 14% is getting you a more lengthly period of action that does one Roulette Spin, more entertainment value, bang for ya' buck!!!

I suppose that would also be an argument in favor of Live Keno, but that's beside the point, you'd be at the Roulette Table, anyway. Besides, if one is playing predomiantly for duration...

Calculating the overall EV per spin would be simple. You sum up your action on the base game for the five spins, multiply that by .0526, then you take your amount on the side bet, multiply by .1446, divide that by five, and then add it to the previous result. We'll also do $10 across the board base game and $5 on the side.

$100 * .0526 = $5.26

$5 * .1446 = $0.723/5 = $.1446

$5.26 + .1446 = $5.4046 (-EV Per Spin) The -EV on the total amount bet is $5.983

AND

$50 *.0526 = $2.63

$5 * .1446 = $0.723/5 = $.1446

$2.63 + .1446 = $2.7746 (-EV Per Spin) The -EV on the total amount bet is $3.353

Determining the HE on the bets is simple. You would simply take the -EV on the total amount bet and divide it by the total amount bet. The result, expressed as a percentage, is the new overall HE on all bets.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
DJTeddyBear
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August 21st, 2012 at 5:55:05 AM permalink
I finally had the time to read the original post, and really figure out what the idea is. It's more than a little confusing.

First a bit of good news: As far as I can tell, there's no conflict with the patent for Poker For Roulette.

The bad news: In my opinion, it's too complicated to explain.

I also disagree with the statement that it would not affect hands per hour. Even if all the players understood the game and needed no explanations, I don't see it as being a simple game to operate.

If this were automated on an electronic platform such as iTable, or just using a DEQ type device on a standard table, then hands per hour would not be affected, except when a new player needed an explanation.



Quote: mrsuit31

Three of a kind/ 4 to 1/ .075968

It took me several moments to realize that this meant "3, 1, 1" rather than "2, 1, 1, 1". You might want to change the wording on that, as well as add "1, 1, 1, 1, 1 / 2, 1, 1, 1 - lose".

Quote:

Five 0s-6s/ 250 to 1/ .000117

Doesn't 00 count as a zero? Therefore, five 0s occurs more often than five 1s-6s (which, I agree, occurs more often than five 7s-9s).

If you made that error (which is quite an obvious error), I'd suggest you double-check all the math.




Quote: Paradigm

1) I don't even think you need player specific bet circles around the tracking table as all the players will be using their specific Roulette color chips to make the bet, right?

This is what I came up with last week as part of my manual tracking for PFR. Use the colored Roulette chips, and a special place on the felt near the dealer, where the dealer can drop a protective cover over them for the duration of the bet.

Quote:

2) I don't quite understand what the tracking table will look like, so post a layout when you get one ready. Also, does it matter which numbers are generated by which of the 5 spins. Seems like you would just need blank lammers to mark each number when generated....you don't really care what spin the number was generated on do you? Just trying to figure out why you have numbered lammers 1 - 5 (I may be missing something that will become more obvious once I see the layout).

I agree that the lammers don't need to be numbered. I have a vision of 10 positions along the back wall for the lamers to be placed. The lammers certainly can NOT be placed on the regular layout. And, they need to be protected in a manner that prevents them from moving around for the duration of the 5 spins.

Quote:

4) The 19%-20% hit rate for this bet is going to keep them engaged along with the "journey" of the bet. You are only going to have the last spin as potentially a dead spin if you don't have any pairs through four spins. Having said that, I would have said the same thing about DJ's PFR, but five spins was a big negative at the SHFL goup. I am not sure I agree with this push back on five spins, but it was present. Seems like Roulette players sit there for hours and play. Wonder what you could come up with for a 3 Spin Digit variant as DJ has instituted for PFR.

Part of my problem with the 5 spin delay for resolution was that there is good reason to place the bet on every spin. That's a lot to ask while waiting to find out if the original bet won or lost. I don't see the same type of desire for multiple concurrent bets on this game. At least not for any specific player. It could be a downer if a player steps up to play after the first spin, only to be told he has to wait four spins before being offered the bet, then another five spins for resolution.

Also, the SHFL group claimed that the average player doesn't sit at the table that long. While I have never studied this specifically, I have witnessed at regular tables, people playing briefly, as well as people who camp out. On the other hand, you find a far greater percentage of people who camp out at electronic games and particularly single user slot type games.

Quote:

5) Being able to track this manually on the felt is a big plus for this over DJ's PFR....

Did you miss my announcement yesterday about my concept for manual operations utilizing the history display to check for winners?

Well, I'm ready to go one better. This thread has inspired me. I realized that PFR can be operated totally manually, and without consulting the history display, with the simple use of lammers.

I'll post more details about it in that thread soon.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
ThatDonGuy
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August 21st, 2012 at 11:06:51 AM permalink
How about adding even money for a straight (e.g. 3-4-5-6-7)? If both 0-1-2-3-4 and 6-7-8-9-0 count (but not, for example, 9-0-1-2-3), then there are 679,200 ways out of 79,235,168 to do it in five spins on a double-zero wheel; which reduces the HE by 0.857. You could also offer, say, 100-1 to get the five numbers in the straight in increasing order.
billybabe
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August 21st, 2012 at 4:41:53 PM permalink
Quote: andysif

and you don't feel ashame introducing a game with 14% house edge.



This is the reason why people end up going away and not posting or sharing information with others...Just my 2 cents
mrsuit31
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August 21st, 2012 at 8:10:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

By the way, check out his Money$uits 31 game, I've been playing the demo for hours, it is fantastic!!! The HE comes in at under 3% on that one.



Thanks for all of the feedback guys!

Mission, first off thank you for that, I'm glad you enjoy Money$uit 31!!! Keep you eyes peeled you may see a variation at G2E this year! ;)

Don, my main reason is that people are playing roulette not poker.. I don't want to intertwine the two concepts because if people wanted to play poker they would... I wanted to give a roulette player a fun exciting bet that is strictly just a play on the numbers... I hope that explains my reasoning.

Paradigm I do not have a JPG for you to look at just yet... But It will look almost identical to the spread in craps only 0 thru 9.

The only reason for the lammers being numbered was for easier history verification of when the "string" began...

DJ I'm not sure where you are confused in the description or in the payouts (that being said the titles of the payouts could be changed), the math is correct on everything; no mistakes were made .... And I'm not sure how you see this being difficult to operate, Its roulette with putting a lammer down on the felt after a roll...

As always, I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond!
.
DJTeddyBear
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August 22nd, 2012 at 5:38:29 AM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

DJ I'm not sure where you are confused in the description or in the payouts (that being said the titles of the payouts could be changed),

I was confused because it is not very intuitive.

Bear in mind that what is confusing to me may appear obvious to you. After all, you've been rattling this around in your head for however long you've been thinking about it. I first started thinking about it right before I posted. And, frankly, it was confusing - until I read it the second time, a little more slowly.


Quote:

the math is correct on everything; no mistakes were made ...

Since you listed the Five 7 thru 9 seperately, I was surprised that you didn't also list the Five 0 seperately. But I hadn't done the math yet. And I appologize for making the assumption that there was an error.

I DO think that, at least in any sort of math report, that the Five 0 be listed seperately. On the other hand, you were listing it more as a paytable, so it was acceptable.

Gang -
For what it's worth, since there are 5 numbers on double zero that end in 0, there are ( 5 ^ 5 ) = 3,125 ways to have Five spins ending in 0. There are 4 numbers ending in EACH of 1-6 making ( 4 ^ 5 ) * 6 = 6,144 ways to make Five 1s-6s. Since that's not even double the Five 0s, I guess it's acceptable to have it as a combined payline. On the other hand, there are only 3 numbers ending in each of 7-8, making ( 3 ^ 5 ) * 3 = 729 ways of making Five 7s-9s. Clearly, that deserves it's own payline.


Quote:

And I'm not sure how you see this being difficult to operate, Its roulette with putting a lammer down on the felt after a roll...

The lammer can NOT be put on the regular layout, becuase it might be moved by a player, or mucked with all the losing chips on the next spin. Therefore, there needs to be a special place on the felt for it, where it stilll needs to be protected from accidental movement.

At least part of the difficulty comes from marking the numbers.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paradigm
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August 22nd, 2012 at 8:08:32 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Gang -
For what it's worth, since there are 5 numbers on double zero that end in 0, there are ( 5 ^ 5 ) = 3,125 ways to have Five spins ending in 0. There are 4 numbers ending in EACH of 1-6 making ( 4 ^ 5 ) * 6 = 6,144 ways to make Five 1s-6s. Since that's not even double the Five 0s, I guess it's acceptable to have it as a combined payline. On the other hand, there are only 3 numbers ending in each of 7-8, making ( 3 ^ 5 ) * 3 = 729 ways of making Five 7s-9s. Clearly, that deserves it's own payline.



I am thinking that M$31 grouped several events together and had one payout for them even though the chance of the events happening is not the same. It isn't normal to group different probablilty events on one line of the paytable, but I have seen it in Dragon Bonus where 4 & 5 wins pay the same. "21+3" has all the events paying the same amount, although they list them separately on the pay table.
DJTeddyBear
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August 22nd, 2012 at 8:36:14 AM permalink
Paradigm -

While reading your reply, it occured to me why I originally objected (and thought there was a math error), and why it might not be acceptable to group them.

In my own game, to simplify things, I have grouped the various natural and wild combinations. That keeps it simpler, although, obviously, the wild combination occurrs far more frequently.

My objection to what MS31 is doing here is, upon first glance, there is no discernable difference between Five 0s-6s and Five 7s-9s. It is only upon taking a moment to realize that the odds of Five 7s-9s is different because there's no 37, 38 or 39 on the wheel.

But that immediately begs the question of why, on a double zero wheel, that the Five 0s isn't on it's own payline.

And the more I think about it, despite what I wrote above, the more I think Five 0s SHOULD have it's own payline.

Five 0s occurrs slightly more than twice as often as Five 1s-6s, which is why I said above that it was ok to be lumped together. But that's an inappropriate comparison.

Five 0s occurs 3,125 times while EACH of the Five 1s-6s occur 1,024 times. Each of the Five 7s-9s occur 243 times. (Out of the 38^5 combinations.)
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Mission146
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August 22nd, 2012 at 8:57:47 AM permalink
I agree that Five-0's/00's should have it's own payline, and also agree that there should be some kind of pay for the straight that would not affect the HE too much. With all due respect to DJTeddyBear, I think this SB is just as interesting as Poker For Roulette, that said, I think both are pretty good and might increase player involvement. I also think that both would be excellent for on-line Roulette, and possibly for the Tables. If there were some way to set up a live demo and group into categories Causal/Predominant Roulette players and see what they think for the live application, that would be advisable for both.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
MrCasinoGames
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August 22nd, 2012 at 9:03:03 AM permalink
Quote: mrsuit31

Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).


This bet has be out a long time (I have seen it over 5 Years ago)
It is still being use on Touch-Bet roulette and some online roulette.

Below are some examples:

• “Les finales” (final digits): you bet on numbers ending with the same digit. For numbers ending in 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, you need 4 chips and for numbers ending in 7, 8 or 9 you need 3 chips, as there are only three numbers with these final digits on the wheel !

There are also Call Bets known as Finales en Plein and Finales a Cheval that are based on groups of roulette numbers with the same last digit.

Final bet – You bet on all of the numbers that have the same last number. For example, "final 5" means a bet on the numbers 5, 15, 25, 35. This bet places four chips when 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 is selected as the last digit - one chip on each number as a Straight Bet. If the spin result is one of these numbers, the payout is the regular Straight Bet win on that number. Thus, your profit will be 35 + 1 - 4 chips = 32 chips.
However, the bet places three chips when 7, 8 or 9 is selected as the last digit - one chip on each number as a Straight Bet. Thus, your profit in this case will be 35 + 1 - 3 = 33 chips.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Mission146
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August 22nd, 2012 at 9:20:47 AM permalink
I believe you are referring to a single-spin Proposition whereas Mr.Suit's is a multi-spin Proposition.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
MrCasinoGames
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August 22nd, 2012 at 9:41:36 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I believe you are referring to a single-spin Proposition whereas Mr.Suit's is a multi-spin Proposition.


Yes, Mission146, I know.

On Mr.Suit's post it also says: Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).

That is why I Quote: Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
Mission146
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August 22nd, 2012 at 10:12:15 AM permalink
Quote: MrCasinoGames

Yes, Mission146, I know.

On Mr.Suit's post it also says: Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).

That is why I Quote: Players may also have the ability to place a wager on the specific "Last Digit" as well, similar to a place wager in craps (although it is only good for a single roll).



The intent of your post, as I understood it, was to point out that it may be a copycat bet. The point that I was trying to make (and not very well) is that it is only a smaller part of the base game which is a multi-roll game. It seems like the individual number bet would just be a component of the overall side bet.

However, if the PayTable made the HE worse for the player, why wouldn't I just put a betting unit on 7, 8, 9, 17, 18, 19, 27, 28 and 29, if that's what I wanted to do? Is it because you can get in cheaper on the other? I wouldn't really be concerned about making the bet cheaper for a one-roll Proposition. I can use the already existant game to come up with any one-roll Proposition I want.

The five-roll proposition is an intriguing one if I am already ahead, though for a White. It's somewhat similar to the Roulette Keno idea I had, which I tend to like a little better, but it seems that most people like this better from what has been said in-thread, which is fine.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Paradigm
Paradigm
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August 22nd, 2012 at 1:07:43 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

My objection to what MS31 is doing here is, upon first glance, there is no discernable difference between Five 0s-6s and Five 7s-9s. It is only upon taking a moment to realize that the odds of Five 7s-9s is different because there's no 37, 38 or 39 on the wheel.

But that immediately begs the question of why, on a double zero wheel, that the Five 0s isn't on it's own payline.

And the more I think about it, despite what I wrote above, the more I think Five 0s SHOULD have it's own payline.

Five 0s occurrs slightly more than twice as often as Five 1s-6s, which is why I said above that it was ok to be lumped together. But that's an inappropriate comparison.

Five 0s occurs 3,125 times while EACH of the Five 1s-6s occur 1,024 times. Each of the Five 7s-9s occur 243 times. (Out of the 38^5 combinations.)



All that you have stated above makes sense, my point was that I think M$31 has possibly intentionally grouped the most frequent five 0's with the five 1/2/3'4/5/6s to give the paytable a step payout of 250-1 between the 20 to 1 payout and the 1000-1 payout. I haven't thought about the math here, but the pay table as is has a nice upward graduation to it.....if you separate the five 0's from the five 1's-6's, you likely end up with a paytable with multiple lines above the 250 to 1 payout. So your paytable may look like 1/4/10/20/400/600/1000....by combiing the 0's and the 1-6's five of a kinds, you can offer the single 250 step between the 20-1 and the top payout of 1000-1.

I just don't think it is imperative that every event in a single paytable line has the exact same chance of occuring. If one of the events occurs you get paid the 250-1. It is more likely that if you hit this award that it will be the five 0's vs. the five 1/2/3/4/5/6's doesn't really matter to the player.......it is still a five of a kind. I don't believe players think that hard about the components of an individual paytable line and if they did, they would think that the 250-1 is easier to hit on zero's.....I don't know this is a big deal.....maybe it is to some, I wouldn't change it if it was my game, that is all I am saying.
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
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August 22nd, 2012 at 2:13:17 PM permalink
Quote: MrCasinoGames

This bet has be out a long time (I have seen it over 5 Years ago)
It is still being use on Touch-Bet roulette and some online roulette.

Below are some examples:

• “Les finales” (final digits): you bet on numbers ending with the same digit. For numbers ending in 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, you need 4 chips and for numbers ending in 7, 8 or 9 you need 3 chips, as there are only three numbers with these final digits on the wheel !

There are also Call Bets known as Finales en Plein and Finales a Cheval that are based on groups of roulette numbers with the same last digit.

Final bet – You bet on all of the numbers that have the same last number. For example, "final 5" means a bet on the numbers 5, 15, 25, 35. This bet places four chips when 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 is selected as the last digit - one chip on each number as a Straight Bet. If the spin result is one of these numbers, the payout is the regular Straight Bet win on that number. Thus, your profit will be 35 + 1 - 4 chips = 32 chips.
However, the bet places three chips when 7, 8 or 9 is selected as the last digit - one chip on each number as a Straight Bet. Thus, your profit in this case will be 35 + 1 - 3 = 33 chips.



Thank you for this stephen, This will not be included in the wager if it moves forward...

Dj, paradigm's explanation for my reasoning behind not separating the 0s from the rest is accurate. There was truly no need to put it in its own category. If you reread the description you will see that the lammers would not be placed on the actual roulette layout there would be a separate added table on the layout for this wager tracking...

The straight can be added to the table very easily as the math has been done for every possible outcome, but this was the one I liked best... I personally just liked the idea of the repeating numbers aspect vs the poker hand type payouts, but realistically they are obviously not far off. My absolute favorite were the paytables that started with a 3 of a kind as the lowest qualifier as it allowed for very nice payouts, but obviously the hit percentage was significantly lower for those...(these included the straight as well)
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