Thread Rating:

Poll

12 votes (52.17%)
3 votes (13.04%)
5 votes (21.73%)
7 votes (30.43%)
1 vote (4.34%)
4 votes (17.39%)
2 votes (8.69%)
3 votes (13.04%)
2 votes (8.69%)
2 votes (8.69%)

23 members have voted

Wizard
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October 25th, 2017 at 6:51:25 PM permalink
In response to the many requests for a single game video poker challenge I got together with the amazing Ken today at the Santa Fe Station. This time I think you'll be happier with the final video. However, for now, can I please get a volunteer to help me check the close up footage for accuracy. Ken remarked afterward he thinks he made at least one error. Below is the video.



Thank you!

The question for the poll is what do you think?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
prozema
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October 25th, 2017 at 7:12:59 PM permalink
I can't keep up.
JohnnyQ
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October 25th, 2017 at 7:29:41 PM permalink
I didn't watch it all. You would let us know if there was a natural RF in there, right ?
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HugoSlavia
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October 25th, 2017 at 7:58:05 PM permalink
Quote: prozema

I can't keep up.


Same here. I slowed it down to 0.75.

If there's a mistake, it must be a small one. His play looked perfect to me.
HugoSlavia
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October 25th, 2017 at 8:07:29 PM permalink
Interesting hands:

At 4:35, he was dealt four to a royal with a deuce. He played it correctly, but I think most gamblers would toss the deuce.

At 1:10, he held one of two pair and connected on the natural quad.

At 2:50 was another one of those tossup hands where you could correctly hold for either the inside straight or straight flush.

At 6:58 was an example of an inside straight draw outranking QTs.
gamerfreak
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October 25th, 2017 at 8:20:29 PM permalink
What was the HPH?**

**for the amount of time played
HugoSlavia
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October 25th, 2017 at 8:31:57 PM permalink
I counted about 50 in 2 minutes, so very roughly 1500. But the machine was not perfectly fast. I think he could have done better on a faster machine.
Wizard
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October 25th, 2017 at 9:21:22 PM permalink
I've checked the first 100 hands, which took 3:58 to play. That translates to 1512 HPH.

Couple tricky penalty card situations in there, both of which he got right:

Hand 37: 10d, Ad, Jc, 6h, 2
Hand 40: 5h, 7d, 10d, Jd, Ac
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MaxPen
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October 25th, 2017 at 11:04:08 PM permalink
I just got home from playing 4800 hands of 5Play bonus. Started at 5:45 and ended shortly before 10. I thought that was fast.
kgb92
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October 25th, 2017 at 11:46:25 PM permalink
Hello forum. I'm Ken, and I took the poll and selected 10 minutes doesn't mean jack!!

If there ever is a record set then I anticipate mine being shattered and a new record set or possibly set many times over. After that I hope to have an opportunity to consider training specifically to break the record. The record should settle on someone who receives many lucky hands in the 10 minute window, such as toss all 5 cards in Deuces Wild.

If someone would like action on whether this could be kept up for a full hour then I would like to bet on that. And maybe a 12 or 24 hour challenge as well. Also, a 3 machine challenge.

Thanks to Mike the Wizard for his interest in this product. I have been wanting a video for awhile and I got 2!!!

I do have a fast machine in town in mind for a future gold medal attempt ;)

Ken
RealizeGaming
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October 26th, 2017 at 3:45:51 AM permalink
Amazing video!

I truthfully don't think I could play that quick even if I didn't look at the cards and just pushed the deal/draw button.
Mikey75
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October 26th, 2017 at 7:29:07 AM permalink
Quote: kgb92

Hello forum. I'm Ken, and I took the poll and selected 10 minutes doesn't mean jack!!

If there ever is a record set then I anticipate mine being shattered and a new record set or possibly set many times over. After that I hope to have an opportunity to consider training specifically to break the record. The record should settle on someone who receives many lucky hands in the 10 minute window, such as toss all 5 cards in Deuces Wild.

If someone would like action on whether this could be kept up for a full hour then I would like to bet on that. And maybe a 12 or 24 hour challenge as well. Also, a 3 machine challenge.

Thanks to Mike the Wizard for his interest in this product. I have been wanting a video for awhile and I got 2!!!

I do have a fast machine in town in mind for a future gold medal attempt ;)

Ken




Ken, my hats off to you!! Fabulous play!! I can't play perfect going slow. To play perfect that fast is totally amazing!!
Wizard
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October 26th, 2017 at 8:00:08 AM permalink
Thanks for joining us Ken. I would also be interested in any bet that Ken could play at a high rate for 8 to 24 hours. This could easily be tracked with points on a player card.

I don't think we'll every see anybody beat your record by much.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
prozema
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October 26th, 2017 at 9:08:11 AM permalink
Quote: Mikey75

Ken, my hats off to you!! Fabulous play!! I can't play perfect going slow. To play perfect that fast is totally amazing!!



Totally agree. Even when I thought I saw an error upon investigation I found I was wrong, not Ken. VERY impressive!
Ayecarumba
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October 26th, 2017 at 9:36:17 AM permalink
Thanks for answering the Wizard's call Ken! Your skills are amazing. Have you come across other players who could compete with you in a 10 minute sprint?
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Wizard
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October 26th, 2017 at 1:17:33 PM permalink
I have finished reviewing the video. Here are the results:

Hands played: 257
Errors: 0
Time: 10 minutes, 2 seconds
Hands per hour rate: 1,537

Congratulations Ken on setting a very high bar to beat!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
BobDancer
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October 26th, 2017 at 2:07:48 PM permalink
A very impressive performance. I probably can play about 2/3 that fast and I've been doing this for more than 20 years. (Of course, I'm 70 years of age. A lot of things have slowed down!)

Although I haven't seen him in a couple of years, I'm convinced Frank Kneeland is faster. if you play two machines simultaneously, Frank is considerably faster. He played at about 80% of Ken's speed with each hand --- and he could go for hours.

While I haven't played FPDW in years, it struck me that it is an easier game to play than NSU.
Wizard
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October 26th, 2017 at 2:25:25 PM permalink
Quote: BobDancer

A very impressive performance. I probably can play about 2/3 that fast and I've been doing this for more than 20 years. (Of course, I'm 70 years of age. A lot of things have slowed down!)



Hi Bob. Glad you found this thread. I was thinking of pinging you about it.

Quote:

Although I haven't seen him in a couple of years, I'm convinced Frank Kneeland is faster. if you play two machines simultaneously, Frank is considerably faster. He played at about 80% of Ken's speed with each hand --- and he could go for hours.



I offered Frank the opportunity to do this challenge some years ago and he said his speed was was off from his all-time high, thanks to getting older, and thought there were younger players around who were faster.

Nevertheless, please do mention this challenge to anyone you care to. I would appreciate help drawing more publicity towards it.

Quote:

While I haven't played FPDW in years, it struck me that it is an easier game to play than NSU.



I agree.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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October 26th, 2017 at 6:37:25 PM permalink
Here is the full video of the single-machine challenge. I look so small standing next to Ken there in the introduction.

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
GWAE
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October 26th, 2017 at 6:56:23 PM permalink
Embedded videos no longer work for me on here. It says plug in not supported. Anyone know how to fix?
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Ibeatyouraces
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October 26th, 2017 at 7:50:00 PM permalink
Quote: GWAE

Embedded videos no longer work for me on here. It says plug in not supported. Anyone know how to fix?


It's been like that forever. I wish the posters would also post a direct link as well.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Hunterhill
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October 26th, 2017 at 7:54:31 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It's been like that forever. I wish the posters would also post a direct link as well.


I have the same problem.
I hope it gets posted to YouTube.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
prozema
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October 26th, 2017 at 7:57:15 PM permalink
Weird. Embedded videos work fine for me.
Ibeatyouraces
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October 26th, 2017 at 7:58:43 PM permalink
Quote: prozema

Weird. Embedded videos work fine for me.


With me, it's site dependant.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
prozema
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October 26th, 2017 at 8:00:05 PM permalink
Sorry. What I intended to say is that embedded videos work fine for me on this web site.
beachbumbabs
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October 27th, 2017 at 1:14:12 AM permalink
Embedded videos work for me in Chrome. They don't work on the included Android browser. Both on my phone.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
GWAE
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October 27th, 2017 at 5:27:01 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

It's been like that forever. I wish the posters would also post a direct link as well.



That's weird, they always worked for me on my droid while using the same browser. It just stopped working, seems like after the migration.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
GWAE
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October 27th, 2017 at 5:29:36 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

I have the same problem.
I hope it gets posted to YouTube.



They are on youtube. If you go to the post and hit quote then you can see the embedded link. The letters and numbers at the end can be used to search youtube. You can also go to wizards channel and they are probably there.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
bang4style
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October 27th, 2017 at 8:16:06 AM permalink
great!
Dyvan13
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October 27th, 2017 at 2:22:29 PM permalink
Awesome! I have been keeping tabs on these threads for a while. I lurk a lot here more than I post. I can play FPDW at 1200ish - 1300ish HPH in short tennish/fifteenish minute bursts. This thread has me excited, I want to see if I can get up to 1500 hph. I built my bankroll playing this game.
Wizard
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October 27th, 2017 at 4:11:21 PM permalink
Sorry to not also provide a link to the videos. I'll try to remember to do that in the future. Here is a link to the videos on my YouTube channel, where you can find all three videos I've posted lately on the challenge: The Odds must be Crazy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Hunterhill
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October 27th, 2017 at 7:47:08 PM permalink
Thank You!
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
cyberbabble
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October 28th, 2017 at 11:47:53 AM permalink
It appears to me that deuces is going to be a faster game because a significant number of hands are draw all 5 without holding anything. In JOB there are relatively few hands that are discard all 5.

deuces -
spin, look, spin
JOB -
spin, look, hold, spin
DrAntonius
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October 28th, 2017 at 3:49:16 PM permalink
I have clocked myself at over 1800 HPH single line, single machine for a 9-hour stretch including bathroom breaks. Over 5-10 minutes I believe I can break 1900 HPH accurately on a handful of games including 9/6 JoB and NSUD. Under condition of complete anonymity (no video that includes voice, name, clothing, any body part, or player's card display) I will do this challenge.

I'll send Mike a message and see if we can set something up.
Wizard
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October 28th, 2017 at 5:21:20 PM permalink
I got that message and I agree to that condition. You may play any game you wish, except Pick 'Em Poker.

Forum, stay tuned for the results.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rxwine
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October 29th, 2017 at 11:20:23 AM permalink
If the new challenger is successful, you may not have to do many of these to establish fairly unassailable records.
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BobDancer
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October 29th, 2017 at 9:16:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You may play any game you wish, except Pick 'Em Poker.



I can beat that record too --- playing Double Down Stud.

Where do I sign up?
boymimbo
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October 30th, 2017 at 11:18:24 AM permalink
That was pretty fast. I play pretty fast as well. I am going to try the challenge playing DW at my local casino sometime later this week just to see how fast I am.

The thing is the error rate. I saw a few corrections to my own hands that I need to make. As well, my strategy is different with a 1-2-3-4-4-10-12-20 machine. Wish that I had a 1-2-3-3-5-15-25 around to play with!

My major error is keeping the 4 cards to a straight aka 4 - 5 - 6 - 8 - x where x is no at a 2,3,4,5,6,7. I don't do that. I generally throw away all. Most of the others I get right, though I winced when I saw the wild royal with one deuce. Though I understand the EV is far better to keep the wild, I'd probably blink and go for the Royal.
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Mission146
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October 30th, 2017 at 11:39:21 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Most of the others I get right, though I winced when I saw the wild royal with one deuce. Though I understand the EV is far better to keep the wild, I'd probably blink and go for the Royal.



Put the emphasis on, FAR BETTER, that's a difference of more than five bets, in terms of EV, on any 200-25-etc playtable. Going for the natural is nothing short of a tremendous mistake. Now, in the sense of how frequently you're going to see that specific opportunity, which isn't really worth it to me to figure out just for this purpose, it wouldn't detract a TON from your overall EV, I wouldn't think. Maybe a few thousandths of a percent to as much as one or two hundreths, something like that...

Still, I have no desire not to keep the dirty Royal on that one, so you'd have to decide whether or not it is worth the EV cost to you.

Like you, I hate keeping those inside straight draws, but I almost always do it.

The Dirty Royal I hate to keep is 2-2-2-Suited High-Suited High, but I do it. That's agonizing, though. Get that Deuce over 4% of the time, have to make the right play, though, even if it is hard to swallow.

I'd be a liar if I said I don't, very rarely, toss all five on one of the straight draws you mentioned. Usually out of frustration from:

A.) Losing

AND

B.) Seeing that 3/4 hands, 7/10 hands, whatever.

If I do it twice in a session, or even think about it twice, that's it for me that day. No more playing. I'll allow myself once, though, and I shouldn't.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Ibeatyouraces
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October 30th, 2017 at 11:50:51 AM permalink
I run the worst on DW when vulturing it.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Romes
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October 30th, 2017 at 12:11:41 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I run the worst on DW when vulturing it.

This was my story for the longest time... Then I vultured a 10 play $1 deuces wild game with numerous multipliers... Got dealt 3 deuces, and hit 4 deuces on one of the hands, along with a bunch of other awesome hands (of course) for a hand pay. I think that puts me up on vulturing DW for a little while =).

Again, congrats to Ken on a very impressive performance. I'm intrigued about our new challenger, claiming ~1900 hands per hour would also be quite the feat! I'm eager to see how that one plays out.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
boymimbo
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October 31st, 2017 at 10:02:05 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Put the emphasis on, FAR BETTER, that's a difference of more than five bets, in terms of EV, on any 200-25-etc playtable. Going for the natural is nothing short of a tremendous mistake. Now, in the sense of how frequently you're going to see that specific opportunity, which isn't really worth it to me to figure out just for this purpose, it wouldn't detract a TON from your overall EV, I wouldn't think. Maybe a few thousandths of a percent to as much as one or two hundreths, something like that...



Far better?

Wild Royal pay 25
Royal pays 800
Odds of getting the royal on the draw, 1/47 * 800 = 17.021
Odds of getting a deuce on the draw 3/47 * 25 = 1.597 (the three remaining dues)
Odds of getting a flush on the draw 7/47 * 3 = .446 (3 to 9 suited)
Odds of getting a straight on the draw 3/47 * 2 = .128 (the missing card to the royal in another suit)
Odds of busting out 33 / 47 = (3 3-9s = 21 + 4 face cards not matching the missing card in alternate suits).

Total return on drawing = 19.191

You are looking at a 5.809 unit difference on something that happens once in every 32,487 deals. (80/2598960). I will take the 0.017879% I give up in HA for the variance any day**

**Except in Multi-Strike where I take the wild royal level 1 because it breaks my heart to get a Royal at the 1x bet.
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AxelWolf
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October 31st, 2017 at 10:42:21 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo


You are looking at a 5.809 unit difference on something that happens once in every 32,487 deals. (80/2598960). I will take the 0.017879% I give up in HA for the variance any day**


And the next thing you know you are going for 4 deuces when you are dealt a hand like 222KK.
Then you start going for the 4 deuces when you have hands like 222AsQs.
Might as well forget the penalty cards because they are a pain in the ass to look for.
Perhaps you will start holding As10s because you might make a Royal.
What the hell, just forget about the inside straights and redraw the hand since the most you can win holding an inside straight draw is 10 coins.

Why even play full pay when you can get variance on any old game?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BobDancer
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October 31st, 2017 at 10:46:29 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



Wild Royal pay 25
Royal pays 800
Odds of getting the royal on the draw, 1/47 * 800 = 17.021
Odds of getting a deuce on the draw 3/47 * 25 = 1.597 (the three remaining dues)
Odds of getting a flush on the draw 7/47 * 3 = .446 (3 to 9 suited)
Odds of getting a straight on the draw 3/47 * 2 = .128 (the missing card to the royal in another suit)
Odds of busting out 33 / 47 = (3 3-9s = 21 + 4 face cards not matching the missing card in alternate suits).

Total return on drawing = 19.191



While I would never play that way, i don't challenge your conclusion as to what you would do. It is a "personal preference" and you seem to be willing to pay the price in order to get the excitement of a royal flush draw.

Your math assumed flushes pay 3-for-1 --- which is true in the game you play but not in the FPDW video you saw.

Your math assumed that it wasn't the suited ace that was missing --- that would give you a straight flush draw and a bigger straight draw.

I didn't check the rest of your math. I figure things in terms of five coins rather than one coin --- but your numbers seem about right given that translation. I don't figure these things will affect your decision. You seem to be locked in on going for the royal.

As it happens, my blog today is about a variation on this subject --- although phrased in terms of Jacks or Better rather than Deuces Wild. Depending on the stakes you play, it provides a MUCH stronger reason to keep the wild royal rather than tossing the deuce in situations like we're talking about here. https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/gambling-with-an-edge/be-careful-what-you-wish-for/

If you wish to agree or disagree on that site or this one, you're welcome to.
Wizard
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October 31st, 2017 at 11:10:28 AM permalink
It looks like somebody will try to beat the single-machine speed tomorrow. I don't say the time or location because he doesn't want a crowd. I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ibeatyouraces
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October 31st, 2017 at 12:16:42 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Perhaps you will start holding As10s because you might make a Royal.


NSUD:
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
boymimbo
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October 31st, 2017 at 1:26:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

And the next thing you know you are going for 4 deuces when you are dealt a hand like 222KK.
Then you start going for the 4 deuces when you have hands like 222AsQs.
Might as well forget the penalty cards because they are a pain in the ass to look for.
Perhaps you will start holding As10s because you might make a Royal.
What the hell, just forget about the inside straights and redraw the hand since the most you can win holding an inside straight draw is 10 coins.

Why even play full pay when you can get variance on any old game?



Yes it is a slippery slope. For me the 800-1 win means I leave the machine and go do something else.

But you are absolutely right. I am not saying my play is optimal.

It's not like there is a FPDW machine within an hour of here or anything that pays over 98%. Which means, really, I shouldn't play at all if I want to be AP. The only AP VP at the casinos I attend is the UX vulturing which I see 7-8 people do once a day (and I do as well).

And even if not full-pay it's not an excuse for not playing optimally.
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BTLWI
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October 31st, 2017 at 6:49:37 PM permalink
I would guess it's easily beatable. Am I the only be person that didn't think the video was that fast?
Hunterhill
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October 31st, 2017 at 6:57:00 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

I would guess it's easily beatable. Am I the only be person that didn't think the video was that fast?


I thought it was just me but I didn't think it looked that fast either,but definitely faster than I play.
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BobDancer
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October 31st, 2017 at 8:02:39 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

I would guess it's easily beatable. Am I the only be person that didn't think the video was that fast?



The thing I noticed was there were no "false starts." I find I sometimes change my mind and have to un-hold and then re-hold. That takes a lot longer.

The other thing I noticed was that when four cards needed to be held, he held them all "at once." I tend to hold them one at a time. Rapidly, to be sure. But one at a time rapidly is not as fast as all at once.
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