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Deucekies
Deucekies
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
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June 2nd, 2015 at 4:49:15 PM permalink
Quote: bigfoot66

When there is 4oak on the board you should raise very liberally. Let's say board is QQQQ2 and you have 7 high. Here there are 24 outs to beat you but if you win you get paid 10:1 on the blind. In effect you are wagering 1 unit to win 14. Because of the huge payout it's gotta be right to call here.



If the 10:1 payout is up for grabs, it seems to me you would call with almost any two cards, yeah? I guess fold the nut-low, which can only ever push.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
teliot
teliot
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
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June 2nd, 2015 at 4:52:38 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

If the 10:1 payout is up for grabs, it seems to me you would call with almost any two cards, yeah? I guess fold the nut-low, which can only ever push.

Using the same sort of analysis as I did above, I computed the number of outs based on the player's final hand, and got numbers like 22, 23, 24, etc., as you went up the scale of player hands. It wasn't until I read Mike's strategy carefully that I realized his "number of outs" only applied to player hands that were busted (not even a pair).
Poetry website: www.totallydisconnected.com
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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June 3rd, 2015 at 2:22:34 AM permalink
btw sometimes you call even if you play the board - here are some notes I made a while ago - but essentially if the dealer has so few outs to win you might as well go for the tie. For instance you would call a board of AAAA9 holding 34.
It is assumed that because you call with kickers then always call with any hand improvements	
Board
Any Str Flush Call
Quads Play board with 5th nuts or better (e.g. 2222 T/34, AAAA 9/34)
Beating board with 8th nuts or better (e.g. 2222 3/7x, AAAA 3/6x)
Full House Call
Flush Call
Straight Call
Trips (Ignores straights and flushes - note strange way to count nuts as two higher cards already used,
so Ten is third nuts to AAA)
Play board with 3rd nuts (eg AAAxT 222xJ)
Beating board with 5th nuts or better (e.g. AAA x7/8x, 222 T8/9x)
Two Pair Must be similar logic except some dealer pairs will play the board and other
will win whereas on trips they always win
Pair No 4-card straight or flush - Play board if 2nd nut (e.g. 22 KQJ, but not AA QJT)
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:15:45 AM permalink
I did get to play some UTH - this at Rocky Gap Casino, Cumberland MD. I was afraid they wouldnt have it going mid-week, but by 10 AM they seem to want it going. Likely I'll blog about the Rocky Gap trip.

I got in on one short session, about an hour, and a longer 2 hour session. They do use a decent paytable for the Trips bet and the expected one for the blind bet, see below. The Wizard seems to indicate the Blind bet table is fairly standard. There are better Trips bet paytables but IMO the 3.5% HE on the one offered is not bad for the extra variance it gives you. I only made one or two of these bets though - and no wins. I wasn't actually sure of the HE at the time, plus you had to bet the table minimum.

The table minimum was nice, $5 [$10 then, for the required 2 bets]. I was in for sure!

They must clean up. From my admittedly limited sample of players, plus from the way the dealers gave advice and the way their expectations were set, the Wizard of Odds strategies, or any effective simple strategy either, is close to completely unknown. Everyone played the Trips bet for sure every time - when I declined, people shook their heads, "the dummy doesn't know how to play at all!" When I put down the 4x bet, and how frequently I did that, their eyes were popping out of their heads - everyone instantly made sure I knew I only had to do 3x. Players evidently were only betting 3x and only when they had an Ace or something. I'm sure 4x was reserved for pocket Aces, or maybe other face cards paired, with the typical player.

I breezed through the 21 outs thing, which surprised me. The decision for the kicker just seemed easy each time. I'm sure though, with the excitement of playing the game the first time, I may have failed to consider a lowly kicker when I should have. Next time I'm going to be harder on myself.

It was definitely fun.



RG Trips Bet Paytable

50

40

30

8

7

4

3


RG Blind Bet Paytable

500

50

10

3

3 to 2

1

see http://wizardofodds.com/games/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
miplet
miplet
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:21:34 AM permalink
I assume the Blind flush pay is 3 to 2, otherwise ... :+)
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
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June 4th, 2015 at 4:23:12 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

I assume the Blind flush pay is 3 to 2, otherwise ... :+)



yes, I will edit that
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
offTopic
offTopic
Joined: Dec 6, 2013
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June 8th, 2015 at 11:59:29 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

I assume the Blind flush pay is 3 to 2, otherwise ... :+)



Casino M8trix in San Jose, CA has the flush pay 6-5 so they don't have to keep half dollars at the table. Also, while more or less every CA cardroom charges $1/$100, they charge $1/$100/wager, so if you want to play $5 ante/blind and $5 Trips it costs $2.

El. Oh. El.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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June 8th, 2015 at 12:29:34 PM permalink
So they don't have to use half dollars haha what a joke.They could pay 7-5 or 8-5 like that's going to happen.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit 
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 12:29:34 PM permalink
I finally have arrived at my full set and method that utilizes memorization of the leading card you need to avoid or minimize the need to count the Dealer Outs to determine whether kickers are 'good' in UTH. By 'good' I mean you do bet with such in the 1X river stage; of course you can still lose, otherwise an out would not be an out! It is a matter of whether the kicker allows the dealer to reach sufficient Outs or not. This is discussed upthread. 

All situations below are for the 1X bet. As the LVA strategy card says, first you determine if you can outkick the board using a hole card, or whether you should determine if the board should be bet on its own, often a matter of the outs as well. The card indicates that in the former case, which I will call a hole card kicker situation, 21+ outs indicate to fold, while in the other case usually 18+ outs indicate folding. I'll call it the Can't Outkick Situation. 

You Can Outkick

Hole Card Kicker Situation 1 . Your kicker should not go up against a 4 card flush or open-ended straight on the board, fold instead of using kicker. 

Hole Card Kicker Situation 2. Unpaired Rainbow Board representing 15 outs. K is good, succession* rule is good.  

Hole Card Kicker Situation 3. Board has One Pair representing 11 outs. Q is good, succession rule is good. 

Hole Card Kicker Situation 4. Board has Trips representing 7 outs. J is good, succession rule is good, and we see a pattern here. 

Hole Card Kicker Situation 5. Board has Two Pair representing 7 outs. J is good, succession rule is good. Same as previous due to number of outs. 

Hole Card Kicker Situation 6. Board has Two Pair representing only 4 outs!! This is when the unpaired board card is lower than either pair, thus useless when paired. 10 is good, succession is good. 

Hole Card Kicker Situation 7. Board has 4 OAK, note 21+ outs is not viable strategy  7-card is good, succession is good. Memorize this, don't counts outs. 

Can't Outkick

The following is for when you decide your kicker can't outkick the board. The situation is more complicated because a single card can't trump all other outs in some cases. 

Situation 1. If the board doesn't have a pair or better, "don't play the board" per LVA strategy card, it's the 21+ out situation only. 

All the other situations below use the 18+ rule. 

Can't Outkick Situation 2. One pair, 11 outs, and there are 3 cards that represent kicker situations. These 3 need to be Ace through Jack, any combination, otherwise there are 2 cards that the dealer could have that will add 8 more outs = 19.

Can't Outkick Situation 3. Board has Two Pair representing 7 outs. Q is good, succession is good. 

Can't Outkick Situation 4. Board has Trips representing 7 outs, with two cards that represent kicker situations. These two need to be Ace through Jack, any combo again, to keep the dealer from having 3 more possible outs. 

Can't Outkick Situation 5. Board has Two Pair representing 4 outs! The one other card is lower again than the pairs. This time the 2 pair need to contain a pair of Jacks or higher, otherwise dealer can have Ace through Jack and 16 more outs. Look for this situation and this time I finally agree to just count the outs! If 18+, fold. 

Can't Outkick Situation 6. Board has 4 OAK. 10-card is good, succession is good. This fits with 18+ and I can't explain why this differs from the other 4 OAK situation. 

If nobody finds any errors I'll make a table. 


* Succession rule definition: memorizing a certain card in a certain situation will be modified by the presence of higher ranking cards on the board. When one out-ranker is present, the succession rule maintains that the next lower kicker is 'good'. For example in hole-card kicker situation 2, I indicate a King is 'good' . If an Ace is present on the board that will mean a Queen is good as well. If Ace and King are present, the succession rule says now a Jack is good, etc.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
Vegasrider
Joined: Dec 23, 2017
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Thanks for this post from:
Mission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 1:42:29 PM permalink
Whether to call or fold, even if the correct strategy is to call, if the board is not paired, in most cases, expect with an ace, I will not call. I don't think trying to salvage your bet by playing a hand that doesn't get paid off on the ante is worth the risk.

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