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odiousgambit
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Mission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 1:58:48 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

Whether to call or fold, even if the correct strategy is to call, if the board is not paired, in most cases, expect with an ace, I will not call. I don't think trying to salvage your bet by playing a hand that doesn't get paid off on the ante is worth the risk.

I guess you are right that it means you won't get paid on the ante to play a kicker and the board has no pair or better. But either you differ with Grosjean, Stephen How, and the Wizard, to name a few, about this being worth it overall, or your tolerance for risk should have you avoid this game altogether, seems to me.

If you learned how to play from other players and the dealers, I can understand how you came to this decision.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Vegasrider
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odiousgambitMission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 2:59:17 PM permalink
Y, I use to play the 21 outs method but realized I'm now risking 3 bets to maybe winning won. Knowing that the board is paired, I am more willing to call because I'm guaranteed getting paid double. I can live with throwing away a winner on occasion. No different than playing live poker which I have played semi-professionally for 20 years, most of it in Vegas at the Mirage and then the Bellagio during the glory days. The casino that I play at regularly has repeatedly backed me off from playing UTH, primarily from one Shift Manager. I haven't seen him in a long time. I might start playing again.
ThatDonGuy
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odiousgambitMission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 3:49:28 PM permalink
I must not have been on this forum in 2015 - either that, or I missed this thread. In any case, here is my strategy for calculating the "21 Outs" (that I used once, before pretty much staying away from UTH as I kept confusing the board with the dealer's cards):
Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board. If it is lower than the number next to the hand on the board, bet; otherwise, fold.
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, fifth card higher than low pair (e.g. K K 9 6 6, or K 9 9 6 6) – 4
Two Pair, fifth card lower than low pair (e.g. K K 9 9 6) – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if there is a pair; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight (including AKQJ and 432A) – 2 if there is a pair; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
gordonm888
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odiousgambitMission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 4:44:37 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy


Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board. If it is lower than the number next to the hand on the board, bet; otherwise, fold.
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, fifth card higher than low pair (e.g. K K 9 6 6, or K 9 9 6 6) – 4
Two Pair, fifth card lower than low pair (e.g. K K 9 9 6) – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if there is a pair; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight (including AKQJ and 432A) – 2 if there is a pair; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher



"Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board."

So if you have Q-7o and the board is A-J-9-3-2, there is one rank- King- not on the board that is higher than your highest hole card -and higher than the lowest unpaired rank (2) on the board. But, I don't understand the need for the "higher than the lowest unpaired rank" criterion. If it were lower than the lowest unpaired rank then you would be playing the board -why does that mean that you must fold?

EX: If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" I would Bet 1X because when the dealer does not have an A, K, J or pocket pair, then I expect to push. Isn't that better than folding? But hole cards of 3-2o do not meet your criteria above. Did I get that right?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
ThatDonGuy
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Mission146
July 2nd, 2021 at 7:20:18 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

EX: If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" I would Bet 1X because when the dealer does not have an A, K, J or pocket pair, then I expect to push. Isn't that better than folding? But hole cards of 3-2o do not meet your criteria above. Did I get that right?


"Paired" includes three (and four) of a kind. In this case, the lowest unpaired card on the board is King, so there is only one rank that is higher. Since the number for a 3 Of A Kind on the board is 4, you bet.
gordonm888
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Mission146
July 3rd, 2021 at 8:58:33 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" . . .




Quote: ThatDonGuy

"Paired" includes three (and four) of a kind. In this case, the lowest unpaired card on the board is King, so there is only one rank that is higher. Since the number for a 3 Of A Kind on the board is 4, you bet.



Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.

If the board is A-Q-Q-Q-9 and I have 3-2, I bet? Because there are 3 qualifying ranks that are not on the board. (Also 19 outs.)

If the board is A-9-9-9-8 and I have 7-6, I fold? Because there are 4 qualifying ranks that are not on the board? (Also, 23 outs.)

I think I have it, but the rules -especially for 4-card straights and 4oak - seem pretty complex. Of course, we are capable of memorizing anything.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
ThatDonGuy
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Mission146
July 3rd, 2021 at 9:22:38 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.


Okay, you got me on that one...
Quote: gordonm888

If the board is A-Q-Q-Q-9 and I have 3-2, I bet? Because there are 3 qualifying ranks that are not on the board. (Also 19 outs.)

If the board is A-9-9-9-8 and I have 7-6, I fold? Because there are 4 qualifying ranks that are not on the board? (Also, 23 outs.)


Both correct. The three of a kind has one out; the other two cards each have three outs (to give the dealer a full house). That leaves 13. Three cards higher than the lowest unpaired card and your highest hole card are 12 outs, for 19; four are 16 outs, for 23.

Quote: gordonm888

I think I have it, but the rules -especially for 4-card straights and 4oak - seem pretty complex. Of course, we are capable of memorizing anything.


The four of a kind rule is a little complex, but that's how it works out for 20 outs.
However, I think it should say, "an 8 with four 7s or lower."

With, say, four deuces on the board, you lose if the dealer has a hole card higher than your higher hole card and the fifth card on the board.
If the board has four 10s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7, there are 24 outs (8, 9, or J-A); if it is 8, there are only 20.
However, if it has four 2s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 8, there are 24 outs (any 9 through Ace); if it is 9, there are only 20.
Mission146
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aceside
July 4th, 2021 at 5:47:33 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: gordonm888

Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.


Okay, you got me on that one...

Both correct. The three of a kind has one out; the other two cards each have three outs (to give the dealer a full house). That leaves 13. Three cards higher than the lowest unpaired card and your highest hole card are 12 outs, for 19; four are 16 outs, for 23.


The four of a kind rule is a little complex, but that's how it works out for 20 outs.
However, I think it should say, "an 8 with four 7s or lower."

With, say, four deuces on the board, you lose if the dealer has a hole card higher than your higher hole card and the fifth card on the board.
If the board has four 10s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7, there are 24 outs (8, 9, or J-A); if it is 8, there are only 20.
However, if it has four 2s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 8, there are 24 outs (any 9 through Ace); if it is 9, there are only 20.



Forgive me, but it seems to me that the board 4OaK would, 'Often,' be an exception to the 21 outs. ('Often,' in quotes because it doesn't often happen at all)

For instance, with a hand like:

5d 6h

And board:

Ad Ah Ac As 4s

You guys are forgetting the value of the Blind Bet in conjunction with the fact that you already have a 4oaK. For that reason, you would call here as long as you could beat the kicker on the board, regardless of the dealer's number of outs. Playing around with different hands on the calculator would seem to indicate you want at least a six that beats the board kicker.

It looks like the cut off goes up to seven-kicker (beating the board's kicker) on 4OaK's ranking less than seven.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
odiousgambit
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Mission146
July 4th, 2021 at 8:00:38 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146


Forgive me, but it seems to me that the board 4OaK would, 'Often,' be an exception to the 21 outs. ('Often,' in quotes because it doesn't often happen at all)

For instance, with a hand like:

5d 6h

And board:

Ad Ah Ac As 4s

You guys are forgetting the value of the Blind Bet in conjunction with the fact that you already have a 4oaK. For that reason, you would call here as long as you could beat the kicker on the board, regardless of the dealer's number of outs. Playing around with different hands on the calculator would seem to indicate you want at least a six that beats the board kicker.

It looks like the cut off goes up to seven-kicker (beating the board's kicker) on 4OaK's ranking less than seven.

It's a matter of having the 10-card+ kicker on the board or a 7-card+ if you can outkick the board, according to the LVA strategy card.
That the 6-card would get approval from the calculator is when the succession rule kicks in. Since it is not possible to have more than one higher ranking card, it can't go lower than 6.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
odiousgambit
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Mission146
July 5th, 2021 at 12:40:10 PM permalink
In case it strikes you that the strategy of memorizing a card for each situation, then work out a succession, is a lot of memorization, yeah it is. I'm not there yet, but until recently I had only worked out when a K or Q is good in the 'hole card outkicks' situation.

I decided to practice I'd use the Wizard trainer game and go until the $5000 is gone and work on memorizing more. I started with $15 for ante/blind each, and realized it took too long. I'm finding $50 each also makes $5000 last too long to call it just a session, though surely if your luck was bad enough $5000 might run out. $100 on each I have found will pretty much do it, perhaps $75 would, haven't tried that. A current game where I'm going with $50 on each is taking hours and hours and currently just went past the $5000 bankroll mark again. Any error I make I do correct, though.

There are sometimes the 21 out and 18 out rules are done right and the computer says "that is not the best play" , in case anyone wondered about that. I'm going to stop correction on those and let them go, and see if I can drain out the bankroll. The idea, though, is to get down some more memorization.
Last edited by: odiousgambit on Jul 5, 2021
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder

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