I guess you are right that it means you won't get paid on the ante to play a kicker and the board has no pair or better. But either you differ with Grosjean, Stephen How, and the Wizard, to name a few, about this being worth it overall, or your tolerance for risk should have you avoid this game altogether, seems to me.Quote:VegasriderWhether to call or fold, even if the correct strategy is to call, if the board is not paired, in most cases, expect with an ace, I will not call. I don't think trying to salvage your bet by playing a hand that doesn't get paid off on the ante is worth the risk.

If you learned how to play from other players and the dealers, I can understand how you came to this decision.

Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board. If it is lower than the number next to the hand on the board, bet; otherwise, fold.

No Pair 2

Pair 3

Two Pair, fifth card higher than low pair (e.g. K K 9 6 6, or K 9 9 6 6) 4

Two Pair, fifth card lower than low pair (e.g. K K 9 9 6) 5

Three Of A Kind 4

4/Open Straight 1 if there is a pair; otherwise fold

4/Inside Straight (including AKQJ and 432A) 2 if there is a pair; 1 if there is not

4/Flush - always fold

Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush always bet

Four Of A Kind fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher

Quote:ThatDonGuy

Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board. If it is lower than the number next to the hand on the board, bet; otherwise, fold.

No Pair 2

Pair 3

Two Pair, fifth card higher than low pair (e.g. K K 9 6 6, or K 9 9 6 6) 4

Two Pair, fifth card lower than low pair (e.g. K K 9 9 6) 5

Three Of A Kind 4

4/Open Straight 1 if there is a pair; otherwise fold

4/Inside Straight (including AKQJ and 432A) 2 if there is a pair; 1 if there is not

4/Flush - always fold

Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush always bet

Four Of A Kind fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher

"Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board."

So if you have Q-7o and the board is A-J-9-3-2, there is one rank- King- not on the board that is higher than your highest hole card -and higher than the lowest unpaired rank (2) on the board. But, I don't understand the need for the "higher than the lowest unpaired rank" criterion. If it were lower than the lowest unpaired rank then you would be playing the board -why does that mean that you must fold?

EX: If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" I would Bet 1X because when the dealer does not have an A, K, J or pocket pair, then I expect to push. Isn't that better than folding? But hole cards of 3-2o do not meet your criteria above. Did I get that right?

Quote:gordonm888EX: If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" I would Bet 1X because when the dealer does not have an A, K, J or pocket pair, then I expect to push. Isn't that better than folding? But hole cards of 3-2o do not meet your criteria above. Did I get that right?

"Paired" includes three (and four) of a kind. In this case, the lowest unpaired card on the board is King, so there is only one rank that is higher. Since the number for a 3 Of A Kind on the board is 4, you bet.

Quote:gordonm888If you have 3-2o, and the board is "A-K-J-J-J" . . .

Quote:ThatDonGuy"Paired" includes three (and four) of a kind. In this case, the lowest unpaired card on the board is King, so there is only one rank that is higher. Since the number for a 3 Of A Kind on the board is 4, you bet.

Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.

If the board is A-Q-Q-Q-9 and I have 3-2, I bet? Because there are 3 qualifying ranks that are not on the board. (Also 19 outs.)

If the board is A-9-9-9-8 and I have 7-6, I fold? Because there are 4 qualifying ranks that are not on the board? (Also, 23 outs.)

I think I have it, but the rules -especially for 4-card straights and 4oak - seem pretty complex. Of course, we are capable of memorizing anything.

Quote:gordonm888Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.

Okay, you got me on that one...

Quote:gordonm888If the board is A-Q-Q-Q-9 and I have 3-2, I bet? Because there are 3 qualifying ranks that are not on the board. (Also 19 outs.)

If the board is A-9-9-9-8 and I have 7-6, I fold? Because there are 4 qualifying ranks that are not on the board? (Also, 23 outs.)

Both correct. The three of a kind has one out; the other two cards each have three outs (to give the dealer a full house). That leaves 13. Three cards higher than the lowest unpaired card and your highest hole card are 12 outs, for 19; four are 16 outs, for 23.

Quote:gordonm888I think I have it, but the rules -especially for 4-card straights and 4oak - seem pretty complex. Of course, we are capable of memorizing anything.

The four of a kind rule is a little complex, but that's how it works out for 20 outs.

However, I think it should say, "an 8 with four 7s or lower."

With, say, four deuces on the board, you lose if the dealer has a hole card higher than your higher hole card and the fifth card on the board.

If the board has four 10s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7, there are 24 outs (8, 9, or J-A); if it is 8, there are only 20.

However, if it has four 2s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 8, there are 24 outs (any 9 through Ace); if it is 9, there are only 20.

Quote:ThatDonGuyQuote:gordonm888Your rule is: "Count the number of ranks not on the board that (a) do not make a straight and (b) are higher than both your highest hole card and the lowest unpaired rank on the board.

In your response, you counted the number of ranks that are on the board that are higher than the lowest unpaired card on the board. Very confusing.

Okay, you got me on that one...

Both correct. The three of a kind has one out; the other two cards each have three outs (to give the dealer a full house). That leaves 13. Three cards higher than the lowest unpaired card and your highest hole card are 12 outs, for 19; four are 16 outs, for 23.

The four of a kind rule is a little complex, but that's how it works out for 20 outs.

However, I think it should say, "an 8 with four 7s or lower."

With, say, four deuces on the board, you lose if the dealer has a hole card higher than your higher hole card and the fifth card on the board.

If the board has four 10s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7, there are 24 outs (8, 9, or J-A); if it is 8, there are only 20.

However, if it has four 2s, and the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 8, there are 24 outs (any 9 through Ace); if it is 9, there are only 20.

Forgive me, but it seems to me that the board 4OaK would, 'Often,' be an exception to the 21 outs. ('Often,' in quotes because it doesn't often happen at all)

For instance, with a hand like:

5d 6h

And board:

Ad Ah Ac As 4s

You guys are forgetting the value of the Blind Bet in conjunction with the fact that you already have a 4oaK. For that reason, you would call here as long as you could beat the kicker on the board, regardless of the dealer's number of outs. Playing around with different hands on the calculator would seem to indicate you want at least a six that beats the board kicker.

It looks like the cut off goes up to seven-kicker (beating the board's kicker) on 4OaK's ranking less than seven.

It's a matter of having the 10-card+ kicker on the board or a 7-card+ if you can outkick the board, according to the LVA strategy card.Quote:Mission146

Forgive me, but it seems to me that the board 4OaK would, 'Often,' be an exception to the 21 outs. ('Often,' in quotes because it doesn't often happen at all)

For instance, with a hand like:

5d 6h

And board:

Ad Ah Ac As 4s

You guys are forgetting the value of the Blind Bet in conjunction with the fact that you already have a 4oaK. For that reason, you would call here as long as you could beat the kicker on the board, regardless of the dealer's number of outs. Playing around with different hands on the calculator would seem to indicate you want at least a six that beats the board kicker.

It looks like the cut off goes up to seven-kicker (beating the board's kicker) on 4OaK's ranking less than seven.

That the 6-card would get approval from the calculator is when the succession rule kicks in. Since it is not possible to have more than one higher ranking card, it can't go lower than 6.

I decided to practice I'd use the Wizard trainer game and go until the $5000 is gone and work on memorizing more. I started with $15 for ante/blind each, and realized it took too long. I'm finding $50 each also makes $5000 last too long to call it just a session, though surely if your luck was bad enough $5000 might run out. $100 on each I have found will pretty much do it, perhaps $75 would, haven't tried that. A current game where I'm going with $50 on each is taking hours and hours and currently just went past the $5000 bankroll mark again. Any error I make I do correct, though.

There are sometimes the 21 out and 18 out rules are done right and the computer says "that is not the best play" , in case anyone wondered about that. I'm going to stop correction on those and let them go, and see if I can drain out the bankroll. The idea, though, is to get down some more memorization.