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djatc
djatc
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March 20th, 2015 at 1:54:41 PM permalink
Is it too strong of a word to say he was cheating? I'm guessing since he placed the bet before the hand it would only be a trespass if he kept at it and pissed off the pit.
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Deucekies
Deucekies
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March 20th, 2015 at 2:51:24 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

Is it too strong of a word to say he was cheating? I'm guessing since he placed the bet before the hand it would only be a trespass if he kept at it and pissed off the pit.



As is usually the answer, it depends on jurisdiction. In Washington state, here's the law defining cheating:

Quote: RCW 9.46.196


Cheating Defined.

"Cheating," as used in this chapter, means to:
(1) Employ or attempt to employ any device, scheme, or artifice to defraud any other participant or any operator;
(2) Engage in any act, practice, or course of operation as would operate as a fraud or deceit upon any other participant or any operator;
(3) Engage in any act, practice, or course of operation while participating in a gambling activity with the intent of cheating any other participant or the operator to gain an advantage in the game over the other participant or operator; or
(4) Cause, aid, abet, or conspire with another person to cause any other person to violate subsections (1) through (3) of this section.



What we're talking about runs afoul of point 3, assuming they can prove you are doing it on purpose. By the third or fourth time you get caught, they've got you.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
tringlomane
tringlomane
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March 20th, 2015 at 3:49:31 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

As is usually the answer, it depends on jurisdiction. In Washington state, here's the law defining cheating:



What we're talking about runs afoul of point 3, assuming they can prove you are doing it on purpose. By the third or fourth time you get caught, they've got you.



I would also think they would be covered under Nevada's fraud laws. Or new jerseys "swindling" laws.
dwheatley
dwheatley
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March 20th, 2015 at 4:15:28 PM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

You need to try harder. If you deal UTH face up and know BOTH dealer hole cards you should have a 35% edge. You are doing something wrong if you can't make money with a 35% edge.

Using the st.dev of regular UTH of 4.94 units, I get a 600 hand sample st dev of sqrt(600)*4.94 = 121 units and expectation of 600*.35 = 210.

Down $200 on $5 units is -40, which is 2.06 st dev below expectation. Unlikely but not impossible. Deal more hands, make the money.

----
If you cannot reliably see a hole card, you probably don't have an edge. And you generally shouldn't play the trips bet, that is not where the money is.



I found this thread again and I see the OP can see one flop and one dealer card. This is supposed to give you a 20.74% edge with perfect play. You should be cleaning up.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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March 20th, 2015 at 8:34:44 PM permalink
Quote: dwheatley

I found this thread again and I see the OP can see one flop and one dealer card. This is supposed to give you a 20.74% edge with perfect play. You should be cleaning up.


So I've played UTH a bit over the past few months. Not enough that I have any proven research but I have gotten my feet wet. What I have noticed is that anybody can say you have X edge but it doesn't necessarily work out like that. I took a deck of cards and have done hundreds of simulations dealt exactly the way they do in the casino. With knowledge of one hole card and one card on the flop, after 800 simulations(hand dealt, not a computer) my result is -$50. So let's move onto something better. Seeing the flop in Mississippi Stud is supposed to give you a 50% edge. After 500 simulations, it ended down $75. Three card poker was just over flat.

These results are consistent with my real experiences. While it's difficult to get hole card info 100% or even 50% of the time, you think you would still be able to get enough info to at least break even. Let's say you see part of the dealer's hole card. Often if you just see a lot of paint but can't see the exact number, you know it's a 7,8,9, or 10. You have 10/5. Nothing pairs on the board that matches that. Normally you would probably fold but a 10 is worth raising because it already beats one of the dealers cards. But it's just amazing what the dealer manages to pull out of nowhere. Sometimes it almost seems like it's rigged. What really gets me is the 4X raises. I don't have any stats but it certainly doesn't seem like you win over 50%. Somebody the other day had AK. I heard the lady next to her say, "that's the Anna Kournikova, looks good never wins." I kind of chuckled cause it certainly seems true. According to propokertools, just having an ace gives the player a 60% chance of winning, but it sure doesn't seem like that. Then there's the betting pattern. You raise 4x and lose ($30). The next hand you again raise 4x and win, but you only win $20-25. So you're still down. Then you check and win with a 5 connecting a straight, but only win $10. It just seems all messed up and a slow bleed. The blind bet is such a disadvantage.

I have lost more at UTH than anything else. Meanwhile, I have played blackjack more than anything else. I just flat bet $10, that's it. After a year, I'm at exactly break even just playing basic strategy.
JohnnyComet
JohnnyComet
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April 6th, 2015 at 9:17:08 AM permalink
UTH is a genius game in that it seems much more fun than blackjack but really has much less skill. I have dumped a bunch of money into it and really only walked away a winner a few times.

I feel like it's much more similar to Video Poker than anything else but with the option to give away more money at the beginning. :)
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 29th, 2015 at 4:07:07 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

... I would notice that the way they were dealt, the dealer would often inadvertently flash a hole card. I did a little research and found that there is about a decent edge in UTH if you know what one of the dealers hole cards is. I started playing about 2 months ago. My first few sessions were decent and lost no more than $50 and made about $50-$150 on the others. This is simply betting $5 on the ante and blind, no side bets. It's funny, in blackjack people kind of hate it when you play the side bets but in these poker games the whole table (including the dealer) gets mad at you when you don't play them. I hit a 4 of a kind once and it wasn't pretty.

But in the past month, my sessions have been -$400, -$350, -$200, -$200, and -$130. I can honestly say that in all of that play, I didn't even have one upswing of more than $75. I've heard people say that they like UTH because it's less volatile than blackjack. They're right. Instead of going up and down like in blackjack, you just go straight down. There you go, less volatile. It seems to be the common theme at the table. It doesn't seem that anybody is ever coming out ahead. Sure they don't play correctly but it seems to save them money cause that ace doesn't do you any good when the dealer always seems to have a 5 to connect a straight. Last night I won 4 out of 10 4X raises, the time before, probably only 4 out of 12. Everytime you lose, you lose $30, everytime you win, you only win $20-$25. I feel the blind bet is the real killer. It's just at such a disadvantage.

So I did some testing. I took a single deck and shuffled and dealt them just like they do at the casino. Even with perfect hole card info, I can't get the game to turn positive. After 600 test hands, I wound up down about $200. The high was $200 and the low was -$500. I realize this isn't a great sample, but it gives you a pretty decent example. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks


Most likely you do not know the HC strategy for this game. It is nowhere near the same as the strategy for playing the game under normal conditions. No, I will not post the HC strategy.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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May 27th, 2015 at 10:35:08 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Most likely you do not know the HC strategy for this game. It is nowhere near the same as the strategy for playing the game under normal conditions. No, I will not post the HC strategy.


Perhaps, but how complicated can it possibly be? If you see the flop card and you pair up, then raise 4X. If you see the dealer pairs up, don't raise your ace or king 4X. If both your cards are above 8 and the dealers card is below both of yours, you should probably 4X. The real help is with kickers. The other day there was at least 5 occasions where I was able to fold an otherwise playing hand. Sometimes knowing they have a low card is justification enough to raise after the river with just a 9 or 10 high. I think the disadvantage from the blind bet and the ante pushing when the dealer doesn't pair is just too much of a disadvantage. You raise 4x and lose, it takes at least 2 wins to make the money back. When you lose, you lose it all. When you win, oh this is a push, that's a push, ok you get paid on just that. Most straights and flushes happen after the river, so you only get to raise 1X.

I found a dealer flashing the river in Mississippi Stud the other day. Talk about the ultimate advantage play. I played over 8 hours in two sessions and still lost $500. This was just betting $5 on ante, no side bets. These carnival games just seem to difficult to beat. If other people can make money playing these games, good for them. It just hasn't been working for me. Meanwhile I was actually able to see a few hole cards at blackjack the other day. I'm not going to elaborate on the specifics but just betting $15, I was able to make $150 in just 40 minutes until the opportunity ended. I'm normally a low stakes $10 blackjack guy. I would have bet more than $15 but I only had $300 on me. It was kind of cool. I saw some paint one time. Yes I would like insurance.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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May 27th, 2015 at 10:52:30 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

Perhaps, but how complicated can it possibly be? If you see the flop card and you pair up, then raise 4X. If you see the dealer pairs up, don't raise your ace or king 4X. If both your cards are above 8 and the dealers card is below both of yours, you should probably 4X. The real help is with kickers. The other day there was at least 5 occasions where I was able to fold an otherwise playing hand. Sometimes knowing they have a low card is justification enough to raise after the river with just a 9 or 10 high. I think the disadvantage from the blind bet and the ante pushing when the dealer doesn't pair is just too much of a disadvantage. You raise 4x and lose, it takes at least 2 wins to make the money back. When you lose, you lose it all. When you win, oh this is a push, that's a push, ok you get paid on just that. Most straights and flushes happen after the river, so you only get to raise 1X.

I found a dealer flashing the river in Mississippi Stud the other day. Talk about the ultimate advantage play. I played over 8 hours in two sessions and still lost $500. This was just betting $5 on ante, no side bets. These carnival games just seem to difficult to beat. If other people can make money playing these games, good for them. It just hasn't been working for me. Meanwhile I was actually able to see a few hole cards at blackjack the other day. I'm not going to elaborate on the specifics but just betting $15, I was able to make $150 in just 40 minutes until the opportunity ended. I'm normally a low stakes $10 blackjack guy. I would have bet more than $15 but I only had $300 on me. It was kind of cool. I saw some paint one time. Yes I would like insurance.


One of the most comical hands I was in on was me raising 4x with two mid range cards at least 10 high against a dealer 2. The flop came 2, 2, 2! Needless to say I was drawing dead. It's not as easy as playing pre-flop. You have to know exactly what to do pre-turn/river and on the river itself. This is where it gets messy.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
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May 27th, 2015 at 12:34:57 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

One of the most comical hands I was in on was me raising 4x with two mid range cards at least 10 high against a dealer 2. The flop came 2, 2, 2! Needless to say I was drawing dead. It's not as easy as playing pre-flop. You have to know exactly what to do pre-turn/river and on the river itself. This is where it gets messy.


Well, I wouldn't necessarily raise with 8/9 but the odds are with you. Propokertools says 8/9 v 7 is a 56% edge. So are you saying I shouldn't always raise pre-flop so much? This is what I have been thinking but in all situations I try to lean back on basic strategy. I hate having hole card info cost me money. So even if none of the hole info helps, I still raise something like A/4 or Q/9 4x. Maybe I should hold back and only bet no brainers like pockets or if I pair to a board hole card. I'm the one at the table who everybody looks at weird cause I raised K/7 4X. I definitely think my 4x win rate is below 50%.

I think the Texas Hold'em Bonus game would be easier for holecarding because there is more raising opportunites but that is not offered where I am at.

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