Double Draw Poker

Oh jeez stay away then.

These are the two paytables approved in Washington State, where I grabbed this data. If the straight is 1 to 1, then it's even worse than the second set of numbers here, which already has a house edge of 7.4%! Horrible for a game where people are likely making errors.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/activities/game-rules/double-draw-poker.pdf

Five Aces 500 500
Natural Royal Flush 100 100
Wlid Royal Flush 50 50
Straight Flush 50 50
4 of a Kind 20 20
Full House 5 5
Flush 3 3
Straight 2 2
3 of a Kind 1 Push
Two Pair Push Push
House Edge 3.37% 7.40%

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OK, that's my mistake then, but I'm positive the other part was correct.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Correct. Two pair and trips are a push based on the bonus paytable. The table was quite desolate today also.

Good for gamblers not wanting to play a game with 7.4% edge and an unclear strategy! Table 1 is okay...but 2 is too much. They should have cut one of the higher payouts down instead, imo.

Quote: tringlomane

Oh jeez stay away then.

These are the two paytables approved in Washington State, where I grabbed this data. If the straight is 1 to 1, then it's even worse than the second set of numbers here, which already has a house edge of 7.4%! Horrible for a game where people are likely making errors.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/activities/game-rules/double-draw-poker.pdf

Five Aces 500 500
Natural Royal Flush 100 100
Wlid Royal Flush 50 50
Straight Flush 50 50
4 of a Kind 20 20
Full House 5 5
Flush 3 3
Straight 2 2
3 of a Kind 1 Push
Two Pair Push Push
House Edge 3.37% 7.40%

I did a full CA analysis of this game a while back. I got a HE of 3.915% with the first pay table. My software also played about 98% of hands, which is different than the 97% quoted earlier, so maybe it is a little off. It IS generally correct to play 3 to a SF instead of folding. The strategy can get very complicated though.

Quote: jopke

Quote: tringlomane

Oh jeez stay away then.

These are the two paytables approved in Washington State, where I grabbed this data. If the straight is 1 to 1, then it's even worse than the second set of numbers here, which already has a house edge of 7.4%! Horrible for a game where people are likely making errors.

http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/activities/game-rules/double-draw-poker.pdf

Five Aces 500 500
Natural Royal Flush 100 100
Wlid Royal Flush 50 50
Straight Flush 50 50
4 of a Kind 20 20
Full House 5 5
Flush 3 3
Straight 2 2
3 of a Kind 1 Push
Two Pair Push Push
House Edge 3.37% 7.40%

I did a full CA analysis of this game a while back. I got a HE of 3.915% with the first pay table. My software also played about 98% of hands, which is different than the 97% quoted earlier, so maybe it is a little off. It IS generally correct to play 3 to a SF instead of folding. The strategy can get very complicated though.

Thanks, jobke! That's all good to know.

Quick question...

If you're sitting at a table with say.. 2 other people. And you can see the other peoples cards.. Wouldn't that slide the advantage in the players favor? Because you have knowledge of 10-16 other cards in the deck. You'd be able to know, with greater knowledge, your chances of hitting anything.

Let me know what you think!

Thanks.

I know some people who have been working on this. With perfect information and two other players you can have a slight advantage, maximum ~2-3% [source: apheat.net]. I should warn you that the perfect strategy with this perfect information is almost impossible to even quantity, let alone learn.

A simpler strategy could give up a lot while still being quite complex. I don't know any published information on this.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It would definitely help with your EV of your hands and it would make your decisions easier. This game has been pulled from multiple casinos, and I think that might be one of the reasons.. If you have 3 people working together, I think you can make money at the game. There's only one of these tables in Biloxi and I hit for $1200 a couple months back by playing with 1 other person. The dealer didn't really mind us sharing our hand info because we started playing nickels on the board for her.

The fact that you can make money, and the game itself is a blast to play, makes this one of my favorite games when I make the trip to Biloxi.

Quote: uwf9990

Yeah that's what I was thinking. It would definitely help with your EV of your hands and it would make your decisions easier. This game has been pulled from multiple casinos, and I think that might be one of the reasons.. If you have 3 people working together, I think you can make money at the game. There's only one of these tables in Biloxi and I hit for $1200 a couple months back by playing with 1 other person. The dealer didn't really mind us sharing our hand info because we started playing nickels on the board for her.

The fact that you can make money, and the game itself is a blast to play, makes this one of my favorite games when I make the trip to Biloxi.

I love this game, too. I'd like to know where it is in Biloxi; I didn't see it, but I only got to a couple of casinos last October. Thanks!

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'd like to know where it is in Biloxi

They have it at Treasure Bay :)

Anyone seen this game around lately? Seems to have lost traction. Most people buy in with $100 and it's gone within 3 or 4 hands.

It was in G Manchester (UK) back in January this year. Luckily I hit a SF early on, so it was a fun time - but as you say it drips away if you don't hit something often.

I saw a rumor that Double Draw Poker is gonna be removed from Mohegan after their jackpot hits.

The only place I’ve seen it otherwise a single table at the Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood casino - it wasn’t that popular.

I wonder if this game is going extinct - does anyone have any insight?

Hi, where did you see that rumor? I actually emailed my host there and she said there's been no announcement about removing that game.

There used to be 4 tables at Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood but when I was there in November, yes, it was down to one table. Disturbing, for someone like me who is a big fan of the game. Vegas doesn't have it.

Thanks for the information - I just saw this comment on Instagram and figured that someone wouldn't say that if they didn't have a reason to believe it. I don't want to reveal this stranger's personal information but I'll reply asking where she heard that.

Do you know if the "Atlantic City Pay Table" is used anywhere (seen in the Wizard of Odds article)? I assume that that pay table must have gone extinct for its extremely high house edge. Even the regular game has a high house edge, especially considering how complex the optimal strategy is.

Regardless, I think it's a cool idea for a game, maybe it should be revised with a different pay table to regain popularity. I just never played it... I almost did in Florida but the two old women playing warned me against it, and said it was an expensive game. I have a near optimal strategy printed out on paper but I don't think that I will be playing it when I go to Florida next week :)

Hopefully just a fabricated example, though it seems too specific to be made up. Hmm.
I have never seen the AC paytable used anywhere. But, it's been a long time since I've seen this game anywhere other than Mohegan and Hard Rock Hollywood. I'm hoping when the Hard Rock opens in Vegas they'll try it out.
It's a fun game because of the complicated strategy and all the decision making. And the hit rate is high enough. But, much of the return is in the Straight Flush; if you don't hit them, it's very hard to win. I once went 0-for-22 SF draws, which are typically 8-1 to 15-1 to hit. Another time I went 3 for 7. Hit 5 Aces once (for $50k at the Hard Rock) and I'd really like to hit another before the game goes extinct!

Quote: harris

I don't want to reveal this stranger's personal information but I'll reply asking where she heard that

"Where did you hear that about double draw poker?"

"mohegan sun"

Well, there's definitely a conflict in information. I don't know why casino management wouldn't tell my host the truth if it is in fact being shut down. If anything, I'd think they'd advertise that fact to get people to visit sooner!

Thanks for asking.

Well, I visited Mohegan this weekend and the rumor is indeed true: Double Draw is down to one table and when the progressive jackpot is hit the game will end. Presumably forever. They've been trying to end it since November or something. I asked the dealer/pit boss why and they said it's because of all the collusion. The game has been there for 15+ years I don't know why they're killing it NOW. I'm extremely disappointed since the main reason I visit the property (from California) is to play that game because Vegas doesn't offer it. (No one does except the Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood in Florida: if anyone knows where it is offered anywhere else, please let me know.) Someone even mentioned there had been a petition to keep it. Without that game, I am far less incentivized to visit :(

It's so silly for a few reasons. The game has a high house edge and I can't imagine there's enough constant collusion to swing the game to the player's advantage especially given how bad people are at it. Doesn't the casino make enough money on everything else, they can't keep one table that may not retain the theoretical hold? And, there's a simple way around the collusion that I think the fans of the game would accept: just have the players make their discard decisions one at a time, before the remaining players even touch their cards. Yes, it would slow the game down, but better slow than dead. And you'd just have to do it on the first draw, not the second, where your hand plays itself the vast majority of the time. Is anyone at Mohegan listening?

Thanks Harris for posting the rumor, because had I not seen it I wouldn't have made an emergency trip out there and may never have had a chance to play it again. I enjoy playing at Mohegan a great deal more than Seminole b/c there's no max bet so when I get on a run (as I did once on this trip) I can raise my starting $100 bet to $200, $300, and I even had it at $500 and $600 for a couple of hands (and there's 4 bets, for those who don't know the game). I think I've lost more on some trips in the past than collusion by $10 players could win back in a year!

Quote: AbleDanger

Thanks Harris for posting the rumor, because had I not seen it I wouldn't have made an emergency trip out there and may never have had a chance to play it again.

Going across the country because someone on a gambling forum claims they saw an Instagram comment?
Thanks for having more faith in me than most forum members (and perhaps my own family). Anyways I'm glad I was right because otherwise that would have been a little embarrassing considering you went all the way to CT to find out, though I am sad on your behalf since you and others seem to be big fans.

I understand why they are removing the game... as far as I can tell, this is the only table game that involves the player drawing cards (the only exception I can think of is this mysterious Indian game called "5 Card Poker" that I found online last week - and that one involves drawing less cards. I think this mechanic naturally lends itself to collusion which is why we do not see it more, even though I think it makes games fun and interesting.

Where is your table games academy? I’d like to learn this game from your academy first.

AGS already has the game online.

I have not added it to my website yet but it's on "the list"

I just tried this game. It’s a more complicated version of video poker. Is this a table game in Mohegan Sun? This should not work well on a real table, because I think it’s too slow. May work a lot better on VP machines.

Quote: aceside

I just tried this game. It’s a more complicated version of video poker. Is this a table game in Mohegan Sun? This should not work well on a real table, because I think it’s too slow. May work a lot better on VP machines.
link to original post

I agree that it could be extended to a cool video poker concept (maybe even triple draw and letting you draw 5 cards).

Slowing it down even more in real life would just further its demise.

Quote: AbleDanger

I don't know why casino management wouldn't tell my host the truth if it is in fact being shut down. If anything, I'd think they'd advertise that fact to get people to visit sooner!link to original post

I've been thinking about this all morning.

The host does not want to be the harbinger of bad news, especially it would make it seem like their casino is becoming worse. Telling people that Double Draw Poker is leaving would artificially create an increase in play - but the fact that this casino is removing the game should tell you what you need to know about how profitable it is for the casino normally.

My assumption is that they don't notify you when new games are being tested, partly because they don't want make the mistake of having VIPs try games that aren't actually rewarding to play.

Sorry to keep commenting, but is it a common practice for casinos to keep a game until the jackpot bonus pays out? Is that a legal requirement?

Quote: harris

Sorry to keep commenting, but is it a common practice for casinos to keep a game until the jackpot bonus pays out? Is that a legal requirement?
link to original post

Yes they have to give that money back to the players.So they either keep the game until it hits or move it on to another game or have some kind of promotion ie. Blackjack pays double etc.
This happens on slot machines also.

Well, my wife and I were looking to get away for a long weekend anyway. We also visited Newport, RI and Providence while out there, so, it wasn't JUST about Double Draw :) It was also too specific and esoteric a rumor not to be true. Call me a gambler ;)

Yes, collusion is possible, but why spread the game at all or not remove it years earlier? It must have been showing a profit to have 3-4 tables all those years.

That's a great simulation - I've been using it as practice (and entertainment) for years.

It works great on a live table, and both Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood in Florida and Mohegan have had 3-4 tables of it for years. It's a lot of fun because of all the options, there are two jokers (which act like Pai Gow jokers), the ability to squeeze out cards, and the realistic prospect of hitting big payouts (5 Aces pays 500-1; I hit it once for $50k).

There's a core group of players, some of whom I see whenever I go to Mohegan, who absolutely would opt to keep the game even if slowed down.

They could also remove the payout for 3-of-a-kind on the bonus bet and make it a push -- that schedule is also on the Wizard's page -- to increase the house edge to a point where collusion won't be as harmful.

Perhaps, but when I go and (easily) find out the truth from both a dealer and a pit boss, doesn't that make the host look worse? Doesn't basic customer service merit telling the truth, and, really, finding a way to keep the game that is popular enough that a petition was started for it?? Does EVERYTHING have to be about maximizing profit? Almost makes me want to be a socialist.

Right, though I'm surprised a casino that is only overseen by the tribe that owns it -- unlike the Nevada Gaming Commission for Vegas -- doesn't bend those rules. My friend who goes with me to Mohegan doesn't believe they can't just change the algorithm to hasten the jackpot hitting (lol).

Quote: AbleDanger

They could also remove the payout for 3-of-a-kind on the bonus bet and make it a push -- that schedule is also on the Wizard's page -- to increase the house edge to a point where collusion won't be as harmful.
link to original post

It would have a higher edge than any table game I have ever heard of. So it would just make it less popular