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DRich
DRich
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October 18th, 2020 at 5:41:13 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

How about them Rays
It was dicey against the Astros
Thankfully they got it done
Always love it when moneyball teams go fa.
Hate it when the big spenders win
Go Rays. Congrats on making it to the World Series



I was happy to see the Rays win with their small payroll. Hopefully today we can get the Braves in and Dodgers out. I am sure the TV networks are rooting for the Dodgers as no non fan will watch Rays vs Braves.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
lilredrooster
lilredrooster
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:02:01 AM permalink
Derrick Henry is absolutely crushing
he had 264 total yards yesterday
the Titans as a team had over 600 yards



𝘱𝘢𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘵: 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘱𝘦𝘳𝘴𝘰𝘯 𝘸𝘩𝘰 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘰𝘶𝘥𝘦𝘴𝘵 𝘸𝘪𝘵𝘩𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘬𝘯𝘰𝘸𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘸𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘩𝘦 𝘪𝘴 𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘭𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵............. ᴍᴀʀᴋ ᴛᴡᴀɪɴ
TomG
TomG
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October 19th, 2020 at 3:29:13 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I just read an on-line article in which a sports journalist picked the non-pitchers for an all-time baseball team:

Outfield: Willie Mays, Barry Bonds and Mike Trout
1B: Babe Ruth
2B; Jackie Robinson
3B: Mike Schmidt
SS: Alex Rodriguez
C: Johnny Bench

Can you pick a team of non-pitchers (maybe with a DH) that does not include those 8 guys that would be competitive with the above all-time team?



Point the first: Baseball has this weird historical context where people think it is the only sport where athletes born before World War I are equally competitive with contemporary players. Imagine if someone listed a defensive back a point guard from over 100 years ago as the best ever. Yet Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, are all common names among best ever baseball players. For this, I will go with whomever helped their team the most.

Point the second: Ruth barely ever played first base. If someone is going to list him there, just pick the eight best players, then figure out a way to get them in the lineup. Move Bonds to second base, so Williams can play in left field, and let Mantle play third base. I will not do this.

Best catcher in baseball history was Josh Gibson.

First base is Gehrig, if there is no era adjustment; Pujols if there is.

Second base is either Collins on Morgan. Hornsby is also ahead of Robinson.

Wager at short stop. Ripken is probably the next best after A-Rod.

Mathews is very close to Schmidt (and Brett is very close after that).

Williams is the second best left fielder; Mantle is still ahead of Pujols as the second best ever in center field, and his best seasons were better than Mays' best; Aaron is the second best right fielder.

The team I came up with has an advantage at 1B and RF, as the original author did not pick anyone for those positions. The team I picked also has an edge at C and 2B. SS could go either way. His team has a slight edge at 3B, LF, and CF. So look at that, he got the first eight picks and I still came up with a better lineup. Not even Marcia Clark blew a lead that big.

Ruth was not an all-time great pitcher, 1200 innings with an ERA+ of 122. Bret Saberhagen pitched twice as many innings with a better adjusted ERA.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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October 19th, 2020 at 4:56:47 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Point the first: Baseball has this weird historical context where people think it is the only sport where athletes born before World War I are equally competitive with contemporary players. Imagine if someone listed a defensive back a point guard from over 100 years ago as the best ever. Yet Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, are all common names among best ever baseball players. For this, I will go with whomever helped their team the most.

Point the second: Ruth barely ever played first base. If someone is going to list him there, just pick the eight best players, then figure out a way to get them in the lineup. Move Bonds to second base, so Williams can play in left field, and let Mantle play third base. I will not do this.

Best catcher in baseball history was Josh Gibson.

First base is Gehrig, if there is no era adjustment; Pujols if there is.

Second base is either Collins on Morgan. Hornsby is also ahead of Robinson.

Wager at short stop. Ripken is probably the next best after A-Rod.

Mathews is very close to Schmidt (and Brett is very close after that).

Williams is the second best left fielder; Mantle is still ahead of Pujols as the second best ever in center field, and his best seasons were better than Mays' best; Aaron is the second best right fielder.

The team I came up with has an advantage at 1B and RF, as the original author did not pick anyone for those positions. The team I picked also has an edge at C and 2B. SS could go either way. His team has a slight edge at 3B, LF, and CF. So look at that, he got the first eight picks and I still came up with a better lineup. Not even Marcia Clark blew a lead that big.

Ruth was not an all-time great pitcher, 1200 innings with an ERA+ of 122. Bret Saberhagen pitched twice as many innings with a better adjusted ERA.



Josh Gibson is tough to compare with Bench, Berra, Dickey, Campanella, Piazza, etc. Who would you pick at Catcher from the Major Leagues?
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:00:36 PM permalink
Piazza is a tough one to place since he was so poor defensively. It took piazza it looks like four years of eligibility to get into the HOF. He was either penalized because he was so easy to run on, because there was some suspicion of PED use, or both. I suppose George Brett kind of falls in the great hitter poor fielder category too.
DRich
DRich
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:14:54 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Piazza is a tough one to place since he was so poor defensively. It took piazza it looks like four years of eligibility to get into the HOF. He was either penalized because he was so easy to run on, because there was some suspicion of PED use, or both. I suppose George Brett kind of falls in the great hitter poor fielder category too.



For best defensive catchers who would be ahead of Yadiar Molina?
Living longer does not always infer +EV
TomG
TomG
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:25:55 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Piazza is a tough one to place since he was so poor defensively. It took piazza it looks like four years of eligibility to get into the HOF. He was either penalized because he was so easy to run on, because there was some suspicion of PED use, or both. I suppose George Brett kind of falls in the great hitter poor fielder category too.



Brett was definitely an above average defensive third baseman. Behind the most of the other all-time greats at the position, like Schmidt, Santo, Beltre, Rolen, Robinson; ahead of Boggs and Jones; about even with Mathews.

The most important defensive skill for a catcher is pitch framing. The best data we have for that only goes back about 10 years, there is some data that goes back about 30 years. Piazza was definitely above average in that area, which made him a passable defensive catcher. Still not Rodriguez level, but much closer than people thought when they were playing.

Bench was the best catcher in Major League history. I would take Piazza as second best, just because we know nothing about Berra's framing, so I'll value him as about average. If anyone is able to show he had some value in that area, he could move to second (as could Carter, Fisk, Cochrane, Torre, Dickey, etc., if any of them were all-time greats in that area).
billryan
billryan
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:34:06 PM permalink
I think people have this misconception that the Negro Leagues were somehow equivalent to the Major Leagues of the time. Josh Gibbons, Satchell Paige, Buck Leonard, and the rest played the vast majority of their games against pickup teams that often were made up of former high school players in whatever town they were in. It's not that they weren't great players, it's that they rarely played against competitive teams.
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
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October 19th, 2020 at 5:42:19 PM permalink
Minnesota lost an all time sports media legend yesterday. Sid Hartman was employed as a columnist for the Minneapolis Star Tribune for 75 years from 1945-2020, his final column ran yesterday the day of his death. Over 60 years on radio. A statue of him outside of Target Field (twins stadium.) He was also briefly the Minneapolis Lakers (now LA) general manager and built their first championship teams, the first dynasty in nba history, around George Mikan. The joke when all the sports leagues got suspended in March was that Sid had outlived sports.

Probably the first and last active 100 year old major sports media journalist. Started selling newspapers at the age of 9 so over 90 years in the newspaper business. Rest In Peace to every Minnesota sports fans “close personal friend,” Sid. What a life.
Last edited by: mcallister3200 on Oct 19, 2020
TomG
TomG
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October 19th, 2020 at 10:00:30 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

I think people have this misconception that the Negro Leagues were somehow equivalent to the Major Leagues of the time. Josh Gibbons, Satchell Paige, Buck Leonard, and the rest played the vast majority of their games against pickup teams that often were made up of former high school players in whatever town they were in. It's not that they weren't great players, it's that they rarely played against competitive teams.



If we were to take the eight strongest Negro League teams from the 20s and 30s, they would have been comparable in talent to an average American League or National League team. Take the 150 to 200 best players who could not play because of their skin color and it would have been an equal.

Looking at a few years of Negro National League standings from those years, they typically played about 80 games per year against each other. That is not "rarely". That would mean up to another 50 to 100 days (and maybe 50 to 150 games) of barnstorming against whatever level of competition was available. I would hardly consider between 1/3 and 2/3 of games to be "the vast majority"

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