Am I Slot or Not?
October 20th, 2011 at 8:31:43 AM
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So, what is a slot machine? How far does the definition stretch?
Is it a game of pure random luck, with zero skill involved?
Can skill play a factor, but only in a bonus game situation?
Or can the game be skill based, and still be considered a slot?
The site Leading Edge Design has a number of slot and video poker demos, some of which defy the conventional slot.
So, is Video Poker considered a slot machine? Skill plays a major factor in how well a player does overall.
Gems Wild Tiles is not a 3 or 5 reel slot machine, but is all about the luck - no in-game player decisions.
Same with Othello and Bunco Night.
A game called Cash King Checkers can have a skill-based decision; Depending on where the checkers fall, some choices will pay off better than others.
Another based on Scrabble has a video poker Discard/Draw feel to it, and is even advertised as a slot machine... but is it?
What about Top Dollar slots? In the bonus game, a player may refuse a bonus offer, and may win less credits than originally offered. Could this be defined as a skill decision?
tl;dr version
Can a game be based on A) pure luck, B) minimal skill, or C) major skill... and still be considered a "slot machine"?
Is it a game of pure random luck, with zero skill involved?
Can skill play a factor, but only in a bonus game situation?
Or can the game be skill based, and still be considered a slot?
The site Leading Edge Design has a number of slot and video poker demos, some of which defy the conventional slot.
So, is Video Poker considered a slot machine? Skill plays a major factor in how well a player does overall.
Gems Wild Tiles is not a 3 or 5 reel slot machine, but is all about the luck - no in-game player decisions.
Same with Othello and Bunco Night.
A game called Cash King Checkers can have a skill-based decision; Depending on where the checkers fall, some choices will pay off better than others.
Another based on Scrabble has a video poker Discard/Draw feel to it, and is even advertised as a slot machine... but is it?
What about Top Dollar slots? In the bonus game, a player may refuse a bonus offer, and may win less credits than originally offered. Could this be defined as a skill decision?
tl;dr version
Can a game be based on A) pure luck, B) minimal skill, or C) major skill... and still be considered a "slot machine"?
-Dween!
October 20th, 2011 at 8:39:45 AM
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It depends upon who you ask, and what jurisdiction you're in.
For example, ShuffleMaster's TableMaster BlackJack machine, the one with the big screen display of a dealer with several player positions, looks and acts like blackjack, but is considered a slot machine by most gaming authorities.
Rapid Roulette and Rapid Craps would also be considered slot machines if they included TITO devices.
For example, ShuffleMaster's TableMaster BlackJack machine, the one with the big screen display of a dealer with several player positions, looks and acts like blackjack, but is considered a slot machine by most gaming authorities.
Rapid Roulette and Rapid Craps would also be considered slot machines if they included TITO devices.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 20th, 2011 at 8:42:30 AM
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What does TITO have to do with it? There are still slots out there without TITO.
October 20th, 2011 at 9:17:32 AM
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A jurisdiction might not differentiate between video poker and slots, but most people recognize a clear difference. To the state of Nevada, they are both considered Gaming Devices.
To me, Gems Wild Tiles, Othello, and Bunco Night are all slots since there is no player interaction. I saw Othello once in vegas, and if you bet 1 "line," your payback was 75% - yikes.
Top Dollar does have somewhat of a skill involved, but the player does not know all of the information to make the correct decision. Instead, the calculations are based on the player making decisions based on what the median prize is. For most jurisdictions, this is just considered a non skill game. I also just consider this a slot.
To me, Gems Wild Tiles, Othello, and Bunco Night are all slots since there is no player interaction. I saw Othello once in vegas, and if you bet 1 "line," your payback was 75% - yikes.
Top Dollar does have somewhat of a skill involved, but the player does not know all of the information to make the correct decision. Instead, the calculations are based on the player making decisions based on what the median prize is. For most jurisdictions, this is just considered a non skill game. I also just consider this a slot.
I heart Crystal Math.
October 20th, 2011 at 10:06:59 AM
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As I understand it, in many jurisdictions, if it has reels, or looks like it has reels, or it has TITO, then it's a slot machine - at least for reporting purposes.Quote: thlfWhat does TITO have to do with it? There are still slots out there without TITO.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 20th, 2011 at 10:15:22 AM
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Maybe he means TITO or bill-coin receptacle.
October 20th, 2011 at 10:17:59 AM
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It's not TITO as opposed to coins, it's TITO as opposed to buying in from a dealer's rack. In many jurisdictions, only all-electronic games are allowed. That's why the electronic table games market got started, and then multi-terminal systems like IGT or Interblock came along.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
October 20th, 2011 at 10:21:45 AM
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Here's the Nevada definition (Nevada Gaming Regulation 29.020):
"“Slot machine” means any mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine which, upon insertion of a coin, currency, token or similar object therein, or upon payment of any consideration whatsoever, is available to play or operate, the play or operation of which, whether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both, may deliver or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash, premiums, or merchandise, tokens or anything of value whatsoever, whether the payoff is made automatically from the machine or in any other manner whatsoever."
(This appears to include things like video poker. I assume that a "replay" from a pinball machine is not considered "something of value" (don't laugh; I think New York City still does - the last time I played pinball there, replays were illegal), as otherwise, not only would the Pinball Hall of Fame need a gaming license, but any arcade with a pinball machine in it would have to make sure nobody under 21 played it.)
"“Slot machine” means any mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine which, upon insertion of a coin, currency, token or similar object therein, or upon payment of any consideration whatsoever, is available to play or operate, the play or operation of which, whether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both, may deliver or entitle the person playing or operating the machine to receive cash, premiums, or merchandise, tokens or anything of value whatsoever, whether the payoff is made automatically from the machine or in any other manner whatsoever."
(This appears to include things like video poker. I assume that a "replay" from a pinball machine is not considered "something of value" (don't laugh; I think New York City still does - the last time I played pinball there, replays were illegal), as otherwise, not only would the Pinball Hall of Fame need a gaming license, but any arcade with a pinball machine in it would have to make sure nobody under 21 played it.)
October 20th, 2011 at 10:22:00 AM
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Thanks for affirming my shorter version.
October 20th, 2011 at 10:50:41 AM
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The distinction gets very blurry with some of the tables at the Red Rock and Riviera. You give the dealer cash, then he presses some buttons to show how much you bought in for. Then you press buttons to make your bets but the dealer deals real cards for purposes of the game. When you're ready to leave he pays you in chips.
For purposes of Gaming I'm not sure what this counts as.
For purposes of Gaming I'm not sure what this counts as.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 20th, 2011 at 11:11:21 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearFor example, ShuffleMaster's TableMaster BlackJack machine, the one with the big screen display of a dealer with several player positions, looks and acts like blackjack, but is considered a slot machine by most gaming authorities.
Rapid Roulette and Rapid Craps would also be considered slot machines if they included TITO devices.
I think the operative difference is that ShuffleMaster looks like a table game, but in fact a different virtual deck is used for each player. So the play of anyone else does not affect your outcome at all. With 8 decks it would only be a minor effect, but in order to meet most jurisdictions definition there can be no effect at all.
Rapid Craps does not qualify as slots, because you are betting on an action undertaken by another person. It's a narrow definition, but because another person rolls a dice, or starts a RNG, then it is no longer a slot machine. It is now an electronic table game.
October 20th, 2011 at 11:21:47 AM
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Quote: WizardThe distinction gets very blurry with some of the tables at the Red Rock and Riviera.
My knee jerk reaction was that this is would be a table game and the only thing the machine added was the handling of currency and betting. However, after looking at the definition of a "slot machine" given above it isn't really clear. At first I thought a distinction might be that a player cannot initiate the start of the game, i.e. it requires the dealer to act to initiate the "game". However, there are also various gaming devices such as the old Sega Royal Ascot game that initiated the start of a race itself, at predetermined intervals.
My current opinion, subject to change, is that the distinction is that the "mechanical, electrical or other device, contrivance or machine" cannot complete a game without some outside action by an operator. This would be similar to keno driven by a RNG.
Mark
October 20th, 2011 at 11:47:51 AM
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Quote: ThatDonGuywhether by reason of the skill of the operator or application of the element of chance, or both,
So at least in Vegas, it's basically a machine where:
- Cash or credit slips go in
- A game of luck, skill, or combination thereof is played
- The machine pays back in cash or credit slips
And now to derail my own thread slightly
So in the case of Scrabble or Cash King Checkers... They are skill games slightly more on par with Video Poker than a straight up slot machine. Even Gems Wild Tiles, which has no skill, is a different breed of game than a "normal" slot.
Have you ever seen games like these catch on?
Will games like these catch on?
As a 35 year-old grew-up-on-video-games-and-computers-child, I would be more apt to play something that is more interactive and fun with a decent pay return.
-Dween!
October 20th, 2011 at 11:50:17 AM
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Pacomartin,
If each player plays from a virtual deck (which I'm not disputing) wouldn't you have a problem accounting for the dealer's hand? There is only one dealers hand and it needs to be drawn from a true virtual deck. Which deck is it drawn from? A player and dealer may end up with the same cards and that isn't possible in the table game. I've always thought that virtual cards and dice must have the same probability in the virtual game as they would in a physical game.
Mark
If each player plays from a virtual deck (which I'm not disputing) wouldn't you have a problem accounting for the dealer's hand? There is only one dealers hand and it needs to be drawn from a true virtual deck. Which deck is it drawn from? A player and dealer may end up with the same cards and that isn't possible in the table game. I've always thought that virtual cards and dice must have the same probability in the virtual game as they would in a physical game.
Mark
October 20th, 2011 at 12:09:00 PM
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Mark -
The dealer plays out of his own shoe as well - which also contributes to giving the machine the "slot" designation.
I presume there are jurisdictions where everyone uses a single shoe. But even in those cases, I'd assume it's a new shoe for each hand.
The dealer plays out of his own shoe as well - which also contributes to giving the machine the "slot" designation.
I presume there are jurisdictions where everyone uses a single shoe. But even in those cases, I'd assume it's a new shoe for each hand.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 20th, 2011 at 12:11:58 PM
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Quote: DweenAs a 35 year-old grew-up-on-video-games-and-computers-child, I would be more apt to play something that is more interactive and fun with a decent pay return.
There you are!!!! In the market I'm in you're a mythical creature. We keep hearing about the next generation of slot players that grew up on video games but have never seen you. We see much more of the shuffleboard crowd than the Xbox crowd. And before anyone says it, we know that you need to market to the group to get the players.
Mark
October 20th, 2011 at 1:16:09 PM
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The Bally roulette slot is the most deviant slot
I know of. It looks like roulette, it has the same
rules as roulette, the same payouts. But its a
slot machine, it arrives at the winning number
like a slot. It pays off not by picking randomly
from 36 numbers, but by paying off like a
regular slot does. This is very confusing to
many people who play it and know how roulette
works. For instance, you see the zero's sleep
for long periods on a regular wheel. Not so
on the machine, they show up regular as rain.
One time I was walking by a bank of them and
I noticed somebody had bet a total of $112 on
every betting space on the layout, in 50 cent
chips. All but the number 2, which wasn't covered.
The winning number? 2, of course.
I know of. It looks like roulette, it has the same
rules as roulette, the same payouts. But its a
slot machine, it arrives at the winning number
like a slot. It pays off not by picking randomly
from 36 numbers, but by paying off like a
regular slot does. This is very confusing to
many people who play it and know how roulette
works. For instance, you see the zero's sleep
for long periods on a regular wheel. Not so
on the machine, they show up regular as rain.
One time I was walking by a bank of them and
I noticed somebody had bet a total of $112 on
every betting space on the layout, in 50 cent
chips. All but the number 2, which wasn't covered.
The winning number? 2, of course.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 20th, 2011 at 1:22:26 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThe Bally roulette slot is the most deviant slot
I know of. It looks like roulette, it has the same
rules as roulette, the same payouts. But its a
slot machine, it arrives at the winning number
like a slot.
That seems to be inconsistent with the Nevada regulation 14.040.2(b).
"(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."
Mark
October 20th, 2011 at 1:38:06 PM
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Quote: marksolbergThat seems to be inconsistent with the Nevada regulation 14.040.2(b).
"(b) For gaming devices that are representative of live gambling games, the mathematical probability of a symbol or other element appearing in a game outcome must be equal to the mathematical probability of that symbol or element occurring in the live gambling game. For other gaming devices, the mathematical probability of a symbol appearing in a position in any game outcome must be constant."
Well, they've gotten around that somehow, its a slot.
I was told as much by a slot tech, after I complained
it wasn't acting like the real game. I once saw a guy
win $1100, and make bets until the whole $1100 was
gone. He won a little a couple of times, but it took the
money back ruthlessly. That can happen on a roulette
table, but its the exception, not the rule. It will take
the $1100, but it takes much longer usually. On the
machines, the exceptions seem to be the rule.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 20th, 2011 at 1:59:19 PM
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Not trying to change the subject, but has anyone done any research into the math on Top Dollar slots? My wife plays them and always goes for a higher amount and always seems to end up with less.
October 20th, 2011 at 2:00:36 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThe Bally roulette slot is the most deviant slot I know of...
I am highly suspicious of the accuracy of this comment.
October 20th, 2011 at 2:06:27 PM
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Quote: marksolbergPacomartin,
If each player plays from a virtual deck (which I'm not disputing) wouldn't you have a problem accounting for the dealer's hand? There is only one dealers hand and it needs to be drawn from a true virtual deck. Which deck is it drawn from? A player and dealer may end up with the same cards and that isn't possible in the table game. I've always thought that virtual cards and dice must have the same probability in the virtual game as they would in a physical game.
Mark
Well the dealer's virtual cards could be removed from every layers virtual shoe. The key point is that your probabilities are not affected by another player's choices. It is a requirement for jurisdictions that are "slot only". Since the virtual shoes are shuffled 2/3 of the way, it would be very hard to tell.
The distinction cannot be used by the player. Normally machines shuffle their single deck every play. However since the house edge is inherently slightly higher in a multi de the ShuffleMaster company chose to program it that way.
October 20th, 2011 at 2:26:03 PM
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Quote: pacomartinI am highly suspicious of the accuracy of this comment.
What I meant was, most people think they're playing
a virtual game of roulette, and they're not. I thought
it was the real thing too. I started seeing weird things
and a tech flat out told me they're just slot machines,
they pay off exactly like slots do. In other words, if
you're not a slot player, don't bother.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 21st, 2011 at 4:33:54 AM
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Quote: pacomartinI am highly suspicious of the accuracy of this comment.
Paco, consider the source first....
That doesn't make ANY sense. A slot machine is set to payback at a predetermined schedule based on a players wager, which is also set at a predetermined amount (on a penny machine, anywhere from 1-250 credits). The reels are simply a physical representation of the payout.
The roulette machines will allow any player to be any undetermined amount. You could bet every number exactly the same, and guess what, it pays 35:1 and you'll be down the two extra bets made. There would be no way for the RNG to know what the bet is and pay off at a predetermined rate (i.e. The player wagers exactly $1, and the payoff is 250:1 for that spin.) Playing one number in that scenario Bob described, the machine would HAVE to pay out $250, and that's impossible.
Furthermore, a "slot tech" is simply a person who opens up machines and tries to figure out why paper is jamming or why a machine is malfunctioning. They know nothing about an RNG of a particular machine or how or when it's going to pay out. It's like the dealer who tells a player that standing on 16 is better than hitting 16 on BJ all the time, so you can try to see the dealer bust. He/she doesn't necessarily know the odds any better (and in some cases, maybe worse).
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
October 21st, 2011 at 4:40:50 AM
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Quote: DweenHave you ever seen games like these catch on?
I can't think of a single game that has "caught on" like that.
Quote: Dween
Will games like these catch on?
As a 35 year-old grew-up-on-video-games-and-computers-child, I would be more apt to play something that is more interactive and fun with a decent pay return.
I don't see these catching on in the future. I do think there will be a point where there are some skill based slot machines, but the designers will make sure that 7% house edge (or more) stays in tact. Losses at that rate will deter skill players from making a go at those machines.
By the way, this doesn't include machines that are wongable. Piggy Banking and a few others can be profitable if the bank is high enough. I find those Deal or No Deal (ALL DEALS, NO REELS) machines to be that way. In Vegas, I make a point of finding a primed machine, then take a deal that exceeds the amount I invested. I've only lost once doing that, and that was greed on my admission. Then again, I've never won a huge amount either, so you couldn't make a living off it.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
