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gamerfreak
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May 7th, 2023 at 4:58:58 AM permalink
Quote: WABJ11

Quote: Mathodds123

Lol Biloxi has 1200 slot checker each casino very bad whoever said that is woefully misinformed.
link to original post



Biloxi has a team of Asians running the floor.

But Vicksburg has nobody and Tunics was decent.
link to original post


I noticed this in AC. Two younger Asian girls checking the same bank of machines for like 12 hours a day. I will say they were very polite not bum rushing people as soon as they stand up.

They seemed to only know about cashman bingo, plenty of others they were not paying attention to.
WABJ11
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May 7th, 2023 at 5:16:50 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mission146

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mission146



They do nothing when casinos confiscate a player's slot vouchers, so I don't suspect they care. This has been my personal experience.
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I suspect they would care greatly if the casino refused to give you your money.
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The casino did refuse to give me my money. I contacted Gaming. After promising to get back to me after their monthly meeting wherein these things are discussed, they did not do so and subsequently ignored every single one of my phone messages.
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You have to be adamant that gaming comes immediately. In Atlantic City for example you have to state that this is a customer dispute and you want gaming to be involved and to contact the onsite gaming officer which by law they have to do.

Refuse to leave the casino until they give you the money. All they will do is say you are trespassing and call precisely the person you want to come settle the dispute and get you your money.
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Your experience is vastly different than mine. I had a sportsbook in AC lock my tickets and refuse to pay me until I gave ID. I asked where it said in their rules I was required. They didnít answer that and threw my tickets back and said you donít want to give ID, weíre not cashing these (it was about $3000). I asked how do I contact gaming. He said slightly sarcastically ok you go out here you go down to Tennesse Ave and gaming is there. I went there cause I just wanted to talk to someone. They wouldnít even open the door or let me in. You canít call anyone. They just handed me a clipboard and said fill this out.

A couple months later they did sent a very thorough and professional investigation letter. Basically they said they canít make the casino do anything they just give an opinion as to whether they are violating the law. In my case they said they were entitled to not cash the vouchers because the sportsbook lied to them that they had told me not to make multiple bets at the kiosk even though this was the first bet Iíd ever made at the place.

I donít believe your widespread experience with law enforcement and regulators. They donít care. Right off the bat if they are called to a situation they are going to assume the customer is causing a disturbance, probably cause thatís what the casino told them. They will not care about your legal arguments. This happened to me in AC, perhaps the most player protected gaming jurisdiction. I didnít want to call gaming. Iím not there to prove a point.
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I'm sorry you had that experience.

I should point out I haven't had a run-in with security since before the pandemic. It's possible they've changed their face to face procedures as quite a few markets and businesses have.

I don't understand why you didn't just supply your ID? Certainly you had to identify yourself to gaming in order to make the complaint. I guarantee the casino has your information now as well.
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If I remember when you make a gaming complaint you had to provide your identity. Otherwise how is gaming supposed to know who to respond to, who the event happened to, and how to reprimand the casino and make amends to the complainant?
darkoz
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May 7th, 2023 at 6:00:02 AM permalink
Quote: WABJ11

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Sandybestdog

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mission146

Quote: DRich

Quote: Mission146



They do nothing when casinos confiscate a player's slot vouchers, so I don't suspect they care. This has been my personal experience.
link to original post



I suspect they would care greatly if the casino refused to give you your money.
link to original post



The casino did refuse to give me my money. I contacted Gaming. After promising to get back to me after their monthly meeting wherein these things are discussed, they did not do so and subsequently ignored every single one of my phone messages.
link to original post



You have to be adamant that gaming comes immediately. In Atlantic City for example you have to state that this is a customer dispute and you want gaming to be involved and to contact the onsite gaming officer which by law they have to do.

Refuse to leave the casino until they give you the money. All they will do is say you are trespassing and call precisely the person you want to come settle the dispute and get you your money.
link to original post

Your experience is vastly different than mine. I had a sportsbook in AC lock my tickets and refuse to pay me until I gave ID. I asked where it said in their rules I was required. They didnít answer that and threw my tickets back and said you donít want to give ID, weíre not cashing these (it was about $3000). I asked how do I contact gaming. He said slightly sarcastically ok you go out here you go down to Tennesse Ave and gaming is there. I went there cause I just wanted to talk to someone. They wouldnít even open the door or let me in. You canít call anyone. They just handed me a clipboard and said fill this out.

A couple months later they did sent a very thorough and professional investigation letter. Basically they said they canít make the casino do anything they just give an opinion as to whether they are violating the law. In my case they said they were entitled to not cash the vouchers because the sportsbook lied to them that they had told me not to make multiple bets at the kiosk even though this was the first bet Iíd ever made at the place.

I donít believe your widespread experience with law enforcement and regulators. They donít care. Right off the bat if they are called to a situation they are going to assume the customer is causing a disturbance, probably cause thatís what the casino told them. They will not care about your legal arguments. This happened to me in AC, perhaps the most player protected gaming jurisdiction. I didnít want to call gaming. Iím not there to prove a point.
link to original post



I'm sorry you had that experience.

I should point out I haven't had a run-in with security since before the pandemic. It's possible they've changed their face to face procedures as quite a few markets and businesses have.

I don't understand why you didn't just supply your ID? Certainly you had to identify yourself to gaming in order to make the complaint. I guarantee the casino has your information now as well.
link to original post



If I remember when you make a gaming complaint you had to provide your identity. Otherwise how is gaming supposed to know who to respond to, who the event happened to, and how to reprimand the casino and make amends to the complainant?
link to original post



Correct.

Which is why something didn't sound kosher.

He said they refused to cash him out when they asked for ID and he refused. He went to gaming and filed a formal complaint.

Which negated any wish to remain anonymous.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
McSweeney
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May 7th, 2023 at 11:57:58 AM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

Quote: WABJ11

Quote: Mathodds123

Lol Biloxi has 1200 slot checker each casino very bad whoever said that is woefully misinformed.
link to original post



Biloxi has a team of Asians running the floor.

But Vicksburg has nobody and Tunics was decent.
link to original post


I noticed this in AC. Two younger Asian girls checking the same bank of machines for like 12 hours a day. I will say they were very polite not bum rushing people as soon as they stand up.

They seemed to only know about cashman bingo, plenty of others they were not paying attention to.
link to original post



I'm pretty sure you could work at McDonald's for minimum wage and make more money than stalking Cashman Bingo for the same amount of time.
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2023 at 12:33:51 PM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

Quote: gamerfreak

Quote: WABJ11

Quote: Mathodds123

Lol Biloxi has 1200 slot checker each casino very bad whoever said that is woefully misinformed.
link to original post



Biloxi has a team of Asians running the floor.

But Vicksburg has nobody and Tunics was decent.
link to original post


I noticed this in AC. Two younger Asian girls checking the same bank of machines for like 12 hours a day. I will say they were very polite not bum rushing people as soon as they stand up.

They seemed to only know about cashman bingo, plenty of others they were not paying attention to.
link to original post



I'm pretty sure you could work at McDonald's for minimum wage and make more money than stalking Cashman Bingo for the same amount of time.
link to original post

I don't know about Cashman Bingo specifically, but I do know guy's in Vegas who just started out about a year ago ( they just turned 21) who are making 400 a day playing vulnerable slots here in LV. No big must hits or anything exotic, just straight up vulnerable games. I meant to say Vultureable games.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
McSweeney
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May 7th, 2023 at 1:49:21 PM permalink
I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2023 at 2:29:01 PM permalink
Quote: McSweeney

I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
link to original post

I haven't properly vultured for many years so I'm not really in a position to say for sure.

I have taken action on a few guys occasionally so, unless they are lying and handing me free money I have to believe them. Whatever the case, someone showed me their spreadsheet and it was $442 per day. They spent a little money on gas, food, and tips.

Are there tons of hustlers? Absolutely, but there are tons of casinos, tons of machines, and tons of ploppies, so it's very possible. It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.

I did note (found it odd)there was a discrepancy in their current bankroll(23k only) when I figured out how much they made for the year and what expenses should be. Assuming $400 a day at 300 days, I would assume your bankroll should be at least 65k or you're doing something wrong. Perhaps they are spending money on crypto, $200 shirts, and paying 4k a month in expenses.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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May 7th, 2023 at 7:12:27 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: McSweeney

I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
link to original post

I haven't properly vultured for many years so I'm not really in a position to say for sure.

I have taken action on a few guys occasionally so, unless they are lying and handing me free money I have to believe them. Whatever the case, someone showed me their spreadsheet and it was $442 per day. They spent a little money on gas, food, and tips.

Are there tons of hustlers? Absolutely, but there are tons of casinos, tons of machines, and tons of ploppies, so it's very possible. It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.

I did note (found it odd)there was a discrepancy in their current bankroll(23k only) when I figured out how much they made for the year and what expenses should be. Assuming $400 a day at 300 days, I would assume your bankroll should be at least 65k or you're doing something wrong. Perhaps they are spending money on crypto, $200 shirts, and paying 4k a month in expenses.
link to original post



Maybe they are making $400 a day. But not every day!
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
AxelWolf
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May 7th, 2023 at 7:56:53 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: McSweeney

I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
link to original post

I haven't properly vultured for many years so I'm not really in a position to say for sure.

I have taken action on a few guys occasionally so, unless they are lying and handing me free money I have to believe them. Whatever the case, someone showed me their spreadsheet and it was $442 per day. They spent a little money on gas, food, and tips.

Are there tons of hustlers? Absolutely, but there are tons of casinos, tons of machines, and tons of ploppies, so it's very possible. It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.

I did note (found it odd)there was a discrepancy in their current bankroll(23k only) when I figured out how much they made for the year and what expenses should be. Assuming $400 a day at 300 days, I would assume your bankroll should be at least 65k or you're doing something wrong. Perhaps they are spending money on crypto, $200 shirts, and paying 4k a month in expenses.
link to original post



Maybe they are making $400 a day. But not every day!
link to original post

They logged just under 300 days. So I'm not sure where their money went, perhaps a new car they paid cash for.

It's really NOMB. The how much BR they had was only due to a conversation about what they could and couldn't play with their bankroll when it came to other riskier plays.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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May 7th, 2023 at 8:52:36 PM permalink
I stayed at the Cherokee Casino off I40 last night. The hotel was $60, but I got $20 in free slot play and $20 in food vouchers. A burger platter for lunch and a meatball hero for dinner. The portions were huge. Not very busy for a Saturday but Sunday brunch was bustling, with long lines. My first time in a casino in quite some time. They had a decent honky tonk band that played both Country and Western music. Lots of Bud Light everywhere, to my surprise.
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mcallister3200
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May 7th, 2023 at 10:51:05 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: McSweeney

I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
link to original post

I

It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.


link to original post



You donít believe that anyone ďlovesĒ vulturing slot machines, do you? Doesnít seem plausible.
AxelWolf
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May 8th, 2023 at 12:16:28 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: McSweeney

I don't doubt for a second that someone could make $400.00 a day doing it full time, depending on the area. I haven't been to Vegas for about 20 years, but I always assumed the casinos would be completely infested with advantage players. I mean, I visit Calgary, Canada, which isn't exactly a hotbed of gambling, and even those casinos are so bad that I can barely find anything anymore. Are some areas in Vegas better than others or what's the lay of the land there? Are there simply so many naive tourists there creating advantages that so long as you spend all day and night walking through casinos you're bound to find a lot of plays?
link to original post

I

It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.


link to original post



You donít believe that anyone ďlovesĒ vulturing slot machines, do you? Doesnít seem plausible.
link to original post

I assume if you are in your early 20s making $400 a day with a couple of friends making your own hours with lots of freedom, yes.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
mcallister3200
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May 8th, 2023 at 12:41:49 AM permalink
That would make it plausible if the question asked was what makes it worth it.
AxelWolf
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May 8th, 2023 at 1:35:24 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

That would make it plausible if the question asked was what makes it worth it.
link to original post

Well that's what some guys I know are doing. I never asked if they loved it.

When I started out playing Flush Attack, I absolutely loved it, I never stopped loving it. I would go play it nowadays if it was available. That was not quite the same as vulturing, but kinda. I had to move from casino to casino, bank to bank looking for good action.

I enjoyed vulturing the Visions, Pigs, super 7s, etc back in the day. I definitely loved linked vulture plays like Bonus Run, Flush Attacks, linked must hits, Bonus banking systems, Hurricane Zone, Net Pay, Gobale Shopping, Blackout Poker. Good times, good times.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DRich
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May 8th, 2023 at 5:55:40 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mcallister3200

That would make it plausible if the question asked was what makes it worth it.
link to original post

Well that's what some guys I know are doing. I never asked if they loved it.

When I started out playing Flush Attack, I absolutely loved it, I never stopped loving it. I would go play it nowadays if it was available. That was not quite the same as vulturing, but kinda. I had to move from casino to casino, bank to bank looking for good action.

I enjoyed vulturing the Visions, Pigs, super 7s, etc back in the day. I definitely loved linked vulture plays like Bonus Run, Flush Attacks, linked must hits, Bonus banking systems, Hurricane Zone, Net Pay, Gobale Shopping, Blackout Poker. Good times, good times.
link to original post



Flush Attacks were my first AP play and at the time I had never heard the term Advantage Player.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Sandybestdog
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May 8th, 2023 at 9:16:37 AM permalink
I too havenít actually had a run in with security in several years. They werenít involved in this at all. It was just a disagreement at the window.

Yes I could have just given ID (which is what I would have eventually done) and I knew they would probably get my name from the gaming commission (which didnít really matter). I donít think I actually gave them ID but it doesnít matter I filled out a form with all my info. I suppose first off I didnít want them to formally limit me or say I couldnít bet. Secondly there was absolutely no reason they needed it. There was no legal reason and no house limits were in question. Actually most of the money was mine. These bets were around -200. The total profit I made was only about $800. They were just mad at me cause I circumvented their kiosk circling on me and not approving a larger ($500) bet.

I eventually went there and was going to give ID. A gentleman who it seemed clear was the general manager took the tickets and unlocked them. I said I came here before and they were very rude to me. He said yea I fired all of them last week. A few months later I was at another sportsbook and noticed the manager looked very similar to the one that threw the tickets back at me. Looks like the bad apples just get recycled around.
Sandybestdog
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May 8th, 2023 at 9:41:06 AM permalink
I also see all of the fleas in AC that just sit there all day and check every bingo and scarabs after every person plays them. I donít understand why the casinos donít kick them out. Any manager with half a brain can see what they are doing and should know they are annoying to the rest of the patrons. They will just sit there and take up seats for hours and not play. I like to go up to them and say are you playing that? When they leave I spin in one time then go to the next machine they sat at and say are you playing that?

I donít have a problem if you go through a casino checking machines once and then leave but I really wish the casino would kick out the squatters. AC is infested with them.

I donít think Iím going out on a limb by stating these people are not making any money. In fact they are probably losing. You have to keep in mind 90% of the time these machines are in a losing state, 5% a break even and 5% positive. They just are not finding the plays. I see them, they check all day and find nothing. Then they finally find one wild on a scarab and they are so discouraged at finding nothing all day that they play it and lose. Ploppies have figured out the games and are playing off their wilds now(or whatever else).
gamerfreak
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May 8th, 2023 at 10:04:05 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I also see all of the fleas in AC that just sit there all day and check every bingo and scarabs after every person plays them. I donít understand why the casinos donít kick them out. Any manager with half a brain can see what they are doing and should know they are annoying to the rest of the patrons. They will just sit there and take up seats for hours and not play. I like to go up to them and say are you playing that? When they leave I spin in one time then go to the next machine they sat at and say are you playing that?

I donít have a problem if you go through a casino checking machines once and then leave but I really wish the casino would kick out the squatters. AC is infested with them.

I donít think Iím going out on a limb by stating these people are not making any money. In fact they are probably losing. You have to keep in mind 90% of the time these machines are in a losing state, 5% a break even and 5% positive. They just are not finding the plays. I see them, they check all day and find nothing. Then they finally find one wild on a scarab and they are so discouraged at finding nothing all day that they play it and lose. Ploppies have figured out the games and are playing off their wilds now(or whatever else).
link to original post


I donít really know how many vultureable machines each casino has, but it isnít always that many. When I was at Trop a few days ago I could only find 2 hex breakers. Definitely more cashman bingo and piggies, but like you said regular players are starting to understand how these things work and donít often leave bonuses.

If you are just squatting at one casino all day it would be an awfully slow grind. I could see maybe making some money if you rode a bike up and down the boardwalk doing routes at each casino all day.

Would I want to do that as a full time job? Never.

Would I want to do that a couple of days a week for some extra Christmas cash? Maybe, but probably not unless it was more profitable.

Would I want to do that once in a while for fun when Iím in AC and have nothing else going on? Yea absolutely.
Last edited by: gamerfreak on May 8, 2023
darkoz
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May 8th, 2023 at 12:14:27 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I also see all of the fleas in AC that just sit there all day and check every bingo and scarabs after every person plays them. I donít understand why the casinos donít kick them out. Any manager with half a brain can see what they are doing and should know they are annoying to the rest of the patrons. They will just sit there and take up seats for hours and not play. I like to go up to them and say are you playing that? When they leave I spin in one time then go to the next machine they sat at and say are you playing that?

I donít have a problem if you go through a casino checking machines once and then leave but I really wish the casino would kick out the squatters. AC is infested with them.

I donít think Iím going out on a limb by stating these people are not making any money. In fact they are probably losing. You have to keep in mind 90% of the time these machines are in a losing state, 5% a break even and 5% positive. They just are not finding the plays. I see them, they check all day and find nothing. Then they finally find one wild on a scarab and they are so discouraged at finding nothing all day that they play it and lose. Ploppies have figured out the games and are playing off their wilds now(or whatever else).
link to original post



If they keep at it it's because it's profitable. That's grind work. You only do it if it pays off.

From AP's who have done high dollar plays vultures are low on the totem pole. But to them they keep their own hours, sit in a casino all day, gamble and make money. That's a dream job to a lot of people especially gamblers who LOSE most of the time.

There are some contradictory statements here. They're losing money? Then why would any casino managers kick them out? If they have the possibility of losing (we both agree on that) then they're gambling. And the Scarabs etc are set up for that type of gambling (vulturing) so you seem mostly peeved they sit and watch.

Which brings me to the other statement. This is AC you are talking about so different from all other states when it comes to exclusionary laws. You can't even be evicted for card counting because you are just gambling.

I have had a trespassing case in AC and the casino must give a reason for exclusion that involves some type of illegal or gambling statute restricted behavior. Excluding patrons for "sitting there" and "only occasionally taking spins when someone else leaves a machine" smacks of illegal exclusions based on AC law.
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AxelWolf
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May 8th, 2023 at 1:47:32 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: mcallister3200

That would make it plausible if the question asked was what makes it worth it.
link to original post

Well that's what some guys I know are doing. I never asked if they loved it.

When I started out playing Flush Attack, I absolutely loved it, I never stopped loving it. I would go play it nowadays if it was available. That was not quite the same as vulturing, but kinda. I had to move from casino to casino, bank to bank looking for good action.

I enjoyed vulturing the Visions, Pigs, super 7s, etc back in the day. I definitely loved linked vulture plays like Bonus Run, Flush Attacks, linked must hits, Bonus banking systems, Hurricane Zone, Net Pay, Gobale Shopping, Blackout Poker. Good times, good times.
link to original post



Flush Attacks were my first AP play and at the time I had never heard the term Advantage Player.
link to original post

I think the first time I heard that term was in 2009 online.
I take that back, I did hear an angry customer call someone a @$%%** vulture one time. I heard the term sandbagger.

Advantage Players were called Pros or team players. Casinos just assumed everyone was on a team.
Vultures that only played banked bonuses were called hustlers.
Buffalo Hunters were called credit hustlers.
Some Locals assumed Pros who locked up progressives were hired by the casinos and called them corporate players.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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May 8th, 2023 at 1:53:25 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

. I like to go up to them and say are you playing that? When they leave I spin in one time then go to the next machine they sat at and say are you playing that?

]

So you're basically giving up money and time just to harass people trying to make some money?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
100xOdds
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May 8th, 2023 at 3:08:19 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have taken action on a few guys occasionally so, unless they are lying and handing me free money I have to believe them. Whatever the case, someone showed me their spreadsheet and it was $442 per day. They spent a little money on gas, food, and tips.

Are there tons of hustlers? Absolutely, but there are tons of casinos, tons of machines, and tons of ploppies, so it's very possible. It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.

I did note (found it odd)there was a discrepancy in their current bankroll(23k only) when I figured out how much they made for the year and what expenses should be. Assuming $400 a day at 300 days, I would assume your bankroll should be at least 65k or you're doing something wrong. Perhaps they are spending money on crypto, $200 shirts, and paying 4k a month in expenses.
link to original post

I assume not on the Vegas strip?
If it is the Strip, Are they taking turns camping at a profitable spot?
Or are they continuously walking up and down the Strip between MGM and Wynn/Encore?

$400 x 300 days = $120k/yr.
so if the team is 2 people, then $60k each which isnt bad for 21yr olds.

but if bankroll is only 23k then they have $100k/yr expenses??

hm.. 21yr old guys.. hooker + blow habit?
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 8, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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May 8th, 2023 at 3:58:08 PM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I also see all of the fleas in AC that just sit there all day and check every bingo and scarabs after every person plays them. I donít understand why the casinos donít kick them out. Any manager with half a brain can see what they are doing and should know they are annoying to the rest of the patrons. They will just sit there and take up seats for hours and not play. I like to go up to them and say are you playing that? When they leave I spin in one time then go to the next machine they sat at and say are you playing that?

I donít have a problem if you go through a casino checking machines once and then leave but I really wish the casino would kick out the squatters. AC is infested with them.

I donít think Iím going out on a limb by stating these people are not making any money. In fact they are probably losing. You have to keep in mind 90% of the time these machines are in a losing state, 5% a break even and 5% positive. They just are not finding the plays. I see them, they check all day and find nothing. Then they finally find one wild on a scarab and they are so discouraged at finding nothing all day that they play it and lose. Ploppies have figured out the games and are playing off their wilds now(or whatever else).
link to original post

If hustlers are camping then you have to camp as well.
walking up and down the boardwalk does no good if all the high volume vulture-able banks are 'taken'
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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May 8th, 2023 at 4:02:14 PM permalink
Quote: gamerfreak

I donít really know how many vultureable machines each casino has, but it isnít always that many. When I was at Trop a few days ago I could only find 2 hex breakers. Definitely more cashman bingo and piggies, but like you said regular players are starting to understand how these things work and donít often leave bonuses.

If you are just squatting at one casino all day it would be an awfully slow grind. I could see maybe making some money if you rode a bike up and down the boardwalk doing routes at each casino all day.

Would I want to do that as a full time job? Never.

Would I want to do that a couple of days a week for some extra Christmas cash? Maybe, but probably not unless it was more profitable.

Would I want to do that once in a while for fun when Iím in AC and have nothing else going on? Yea absolutely.
link to original post

If i was doing it full time on the Boardwalk in AC, i would get a small electric scooter and backpack to carry it to enter the casino.
with a bike, i'd be too worried about someone stealing it or another hustler breaking it when chained on the boardwalk.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
100xOdds
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May 8th, 2023 at 4:14:34 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

You donít believe that anyone ďlovesĒ vulturing slot machines, do you? Doesnít seem plausible.
link to original post

I love vulturing.
it's fun playing at an advantage but i dont do it full time and certainly not for a living.
Make a loop around the casino, get something to eat for free using comps, then do another loop.

But i cant imagine camping at one spot for 10+ hrs/5+ days per week:
It's mind numbing enough waiting for a ploppie to leave a machine that's already in a +ev state.
It's worse sitting there watching a ploppie play a machine that isnt in a +EV state.
And then there there are dead times where no one is playing the bank of machines.
there's only so much internet you can surf or candy crush to play
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 8, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Sandybestdog
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May 8th, 2023 at 4:19:12 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


Advantage Players were called Pros or team players. Casinos just assumed everyone was on a team.
Vultures that only played banked bonuses were called hustlers.
Buffalo Hunters were called credit hustlers.
Some Locals assumed Pros who locked up progressives were hired by the casinos and called them corporate players.


This is a great breakdown of the different types. Letís not confuse apís with hustlers.

Quote:

So you're basically giving up money and time just to harass people trying to make some money?
link to original post

well maybe Iíve only done that once and it was probably a machine I wanted to check but I dream about doing it more often.
Sandybestdog
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May 8th, 2023 at 4:40:37 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

If hustlers are camping then you have to camp as well.
walking up and down the boardwalk does no good if all the high volume vulture-able banks are 'taken'
link to original post

I donít live anywhere near AC or any casino for that matter. I am usually only there for a little bit and leave. I have learned that I need to do what I am able to and am good at. So thatís what I focus on. I am probably a lifetime loser hustling. I did walk right up to this the other day at a small casino. But even this place has 3-4 hustlers. I guess they happened to not be there.

mcallister3200
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May 8th, 2023 at 4:47:01 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: mcallister3200

You donít believe that anyone ďlovesĒ vulturing slot machines, do you? Doesnít seem plausible.
link to original post

I love vulturing.


Ö.
It's mind numbing enough waiting for a ploppie to leave a machine that's already in a +ev state.
It's worse sitting there watching a ploppie play a machine that isnt in a +EV state.
And then there there are dead times where no one is playing the bank of machines.
there's only so much internet you can surf or candy crush to play
link to original post




You do? Didnít get that impression you do for the most part, I only cut two of seven sentences.
gamerfreak
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May 8th, 2023 at 5:04:01 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: gamerfreak

I donít really know how many vultureable machines each casino has, but it isnít always that many. When I was at Trop a few days ago I could only find 2 hex breakers. Definitely more cashman bingo and piggies, but like you said regular players are starting to understand how these things work and donít often leave bonuses.

If you are just squatting at one casino all day it would be an awfully slow grind. I could see maybe making some money if you rode a bike up and down the boardwalk doing routes at each casino all day.

Would I want to do that as a full time job? Never.

Would I want to do that a couple of days a week for some extra Christmas cash? Maybe, but probably not unless it was more profitable.

Would I want to do that once in a while for fun when Iím in AC and have nothing else going on? Yea absolutely.
link to original post

If i was doing it full time on the Boardwalk in AC, i would get a small electric scooter and backpack to carry it to enter the casino.
with a bike, i'd be too worried about someone stealing it or another hustler breaking it when chained on the boardwalk.
link to original post


Do it all the time and itís really not a problem. Definitely safe enough in the summer when the boardwalk is packed and has more police on foot patrol.
100xOdds
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May 8th, 2023 at 5:06:43 PM permalink
Interestingly enough, i happened to be near my local poker casino (mgm owned) on mon 8am.
it is normally hustler infested on weekends with at least one of them staying there all 3 days and sleeping in a low traffic corner of the floor to catch some sleep.

well, I didn't notice any hustlers at all but on the other hand only Found a few plays.
I guess not many people play sun nite/early mon.

and unfortunately had bad variance and left a few hundred down. :(
Last edited by: 100xOdds on May 8, 2023
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
AitchTheLetter
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May 8th, 2023 at 7:02:24 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


Buffalo Hunters were called credit hustlers.
link to original post


I have been working in a casino almost 2 years now and everyone here was calling the credit claimers "Seagulls".

Wasn't until we had a transfer from another much older casino that I heard the term Buffalo Hunter.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
AxelWolf
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May 9th, 2023 at 1:16:44 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AxelWolf

I have taken action on a few guys occasionally so, unless they are lying and handing me free money I have to believe them. Whatever the case, someone showed me their spreadsheet and it was $442 per day. They spent a little money on gas, food, and tips.

Are there tons of hustlers? Absolutely, but there are tons of casinos, tons of machines, and tons of ploppies, so it's very possible. It's a 10-hour workday, but that goes by fast if you love doing it.

I did note (found it odd)there was a discrepancy in their current bankroll(23k only) when I figured out how much they made for the year and what expenses should be. Assuming $400 a day at 300 days, I would assume your bankroll should be at least 65k or you're doing something wrong. Perhaps they are spending money on crypto, $200 shirts, and paying 4k a month in expenses.
link to original post

I assume not on the Vegas strip?
If it is the Strip, Are they taking turns camping at a profitable spot?
Or are they continuously walking up and down the Strip between MGM and Wynn/Encore?

$400 x 300 days = $120k/yr.
so if the team is 2 people, then $60k each which isnt bad for 21yr olds.

but if bankroll is only 23k then they have $100k/yr expenses??

hm.. 21yr old guys.. hooker + blow habit?
link to original post

I don't know their route. I assume they move around Vegas. They don't do too much camping. They just check as many different machines as possible.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ctslots
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July 12th, 2023 at 5:12:59 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

Quote: Talldude90

Quote: darkoz

What business has the right to steal customer cash?
link to original post



... I mean, as designed and legally licensed, casinos are supposed to be -ev...
link to original post

Hypothetical:
A casinos offers free slot play to dozens of patrons. The FSP still belongs to the casino at that point. A card runner shows up on a day when none of these cardholders are in the casino. Does the FSP ever become property of the legitimate card holders? Or does the FSP immediately become property of the card runner the moment it is offered to a third party? Does any delay by the casino in converting said FSP to cash constitute a crime? If the legitimate cardholder changes their pin, is this also a crime against the card runner?

Just asking.
link to original post



Asking nationally about questions that probably have state laws is difficult to answer. So let me say that I will answer your questions with utmost confidence for the states I have operated AND been detained at using FSP including confiscation of vouchers

Atlantic City - Backroomed at the Golden Nugget. Used 8 players cards. They confiscated my vouchers and refused to cash out. They contacted gaming enforcement. They notified gaming enforcement I was using other players cards and they confiscated the vouchers obtained.

Gaming enforcement refused to press charges for the use of the cards. In addition they ordered the casino to cash out my vouchers and give me the cash. That's personal experience not hypothetical example.

Resorts world aqueduct queens NYC -. Backroomed for using 9 other players cards. Forcibly had pockets searched. They did cash out my vouchers willingly. I did have a lawsuit against them for illegal backrooming.

Because of the lawsuit they changed their backroom policies. I know because I still had a crew in there for years and when they caught my people security would just walk the people out and even mentioned to them they were free to leave (not getting Backroomed) since they didn't want a lawsuit.

Valley Forge Casino Pennsylvania -. Surrounded by state troopers inside casino using 28 players cards and Backroomed. Troopers verified by phone that the players gave me permission to use them. State troopers then released me with no charges.

I returned using the same 28 cards for three weeks before they surrounded me again. This time the casino chose to evict me. State troopers (the same ones in fact) files absolutely zero charges. AND ordered the casino to cash out thousands of dollars in vouchers I obtained from the Freeplay. Again this isn't in dispute. This isn't hypothetical what if. This is actual experience.

Biloxi Mississippi. I think it was the IP. It was my employee doing pickups so can't remember the casino. She won a jackpot ON Freeplay from someone else's card. Security came. She told them she had permission to use it. They contacted the person who confirmed.

Security then ordered the jackpot TO BE PAID!!!!

They did deactivate the card next day

Harrah's Biloxi Mississippi -. Same worker again won a jackpot on someone else's card and Freeplay. Again surrounded by security. This time admonished not to use another person's card and security again ORDERED the jackpot to be paid.

Next day my worker returned but with the actual player. They took the Freeplay. The card was flagged obviously because when they finished security surrounded them. They informed her they warned her not to use someone else card. That person standing right next to her pulled out her ID and said I am right here what is the problem. Security apologized and didn't evict her.

Those are all firsthand (or in the case of Mississippi employee told) events

So please stop with the BS like you believe the casinos can confiscate money and Freeplay that's already played still belongs to them.

I speak from experience in multiple states. Is every state like that? I suspect probably but I haven't tested them. I don't need to test all fifty states to find out. It's clearly pretty established in the states I hit that the law is on my side when it comes to using other players cards and getting MY money!!!
link to original post

The real impressive part of this post is the sheer quantity of players cards you have access to. How are you getting 28 people to agree to let you use their players cards? I can't even get my own family to just hand me a copy of a players card they already own, even if I offer them money.
BTLWI
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August 5th, 2023 at 3:40:41 PM permalink
All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
Dieter
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August 5th, 2023 at 3:50:36 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
link to original post



Fingerscanners on club kiosks?
What will they think of next?

(I haven't seen it. Yet.)
May the cards fall in your favor.
DRich
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August 5th, 2023 at 3:56:59 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: BTLWI

All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
link to original post



Fingerscanners on club kiosks?
What will they think of next?

(I haven't seen it. Yet.)
link to original post



There was a group in Las Vegas doing fingerprint readers on slot machine player tracking systems instead of using a card.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:07:49 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
link to original post



Nowhere I operate.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Dieter
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:09:05 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: Dieter

Quote: BTLWI

All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
link to original post



Fingerscanners on club kiosks?
What will they think of next?

(I haven't seen it. Yet.)
link to original post



There was a group in Las Vegas doing fingerprint readers on slot machine player tracking systems instead of using a card.
link to original post



I'm just scratching my head at all the ways this could go sideways.
It seems like a lot of solution chasing a very small problem.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:12:42 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: DRich

Quote: Dieter

Quote: BTLWI

All freeplay is awarded via a kiosk.
The kiosk uses biometrics (fingerprint) to authenticate, just like phones.

No more carding. No more swiping in 30 people who aren't at the casino for the drawing.
link to original post



Fingerscanners on club kiosks?
What will they think of next?

(I haven't seen it. Yet.)
link to original post



There was a group in Las Vegas doing fingerprint readers on slot machine player tracking systems instead of using a card.
link to original post



I'm just scratching my head at all the ways this could go sideways.
It seems like a lot of solution chasing a very small problem.
link to original post



If its as easy to Crack the way this video shows I would probably load up on a thousand cards.

While the casino is dead certain they beat me I would rack up.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/hacking-fingerprints-is-actually-pretty-easy-and-cheap
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
BTLWI
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:21:22 PM permalink
Oh, I just mean it's a way for casinos to fight against carding and a future prediction of what's coming. The tech exists on phones for local fingerprint authentication, making reward play available via kiosk fingerprint authentication instead of loading it on card with a PIN could prevent that if they cared.
darkoz
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:26:17 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

Oh, I just mean it's a way for casinos to fight against carding and a future prediction of what's coming. The tech exists on phones for local fingerprint authentication, making reward play available via kiosk fingerprint authentication instead of loading it on card with a PIN could prevent that if they cared.
link to original post



It would probably make them more vulnerable.

Once the casino is confident they have me beat if I figure out how to overcome it then I am in fat city
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Dieter
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August 5th, 2023 at 4:49:52 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

Oh, I just mean it's a way for casinos to fight against carding and a future prediction of what's coming. The tech exists on phones for local fingerprint authentication, making reward play available via kiosk fingerprint authentication instead of loading it on card with a PIN could prevent that if they cared.
link to original post



Not to brag, but I have ten fingerprints.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Sandybestdog
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August 5th, 2023 at 9:18:53 PM permalink
One chain is heavily pushing their app that you can use to card into machines and tables. I wouldn't call it a disaster cause it works ok. The buy-in process at the table But people are not adapting to it. It's going to take years to get people to go cashless. Any changes to what people are used to is not accepted at first.
NYCAP
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August 22nd, 2023 at 7:37:21 AM permalink
Most people that get into this type of work have previous casino experience. More often than not, they have bad casino habits and bad life leaks.

Dedicated hustlers can make 120K/year, especially in Vegas where there are tons of games and tons of casinos. They sit and scout all day. Do you think they pay taxes? That's 180K job pretax. It takes effort and time and it takes over their lives but they do make good money. Easy money? Hardly...

Unfortunately, a lot of these guys make a few hundred hustling and head to the pits or get bored and take bad plays or just play straight up. They give back what they make. This is likely why casinos are not nearly as hard on vultures as they are on other forms of AP.
Mental
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August 22nd, 2023 at 8:38:31 AM permalink
Quote: NYCAP

Most people that get into this type of work have previous casino experience. More often than not, they have bad casino habits and bad life leaks.

Dedicated hustlers can make 120K/year, especially in Vegas where there are tons of games and tons of casinos. They sit and scout all day. Do you think they pay taxes? That's 180K job pretax. It takes effort and time and it takes over their lives but they do make good money. Easy money? Hardly...

Unfortunately, a lot of these guys make a few hundred hustling and head to the pits or get bored and take bad plays or just play straight up. They give back what they make. This is likely why casinos are not nearly as hard on vultures as they are on other forms of AP.
link to original post

All the successful gamblers that I know pay taxes on their winnings. Most of them had jobs that paid much better than $120K/yr in today's dollars and had paid vacations and benefits and a five day work week.

I have played AP slots in Vegas and seen hustlers coming by ever two minutes checking the same machines. If you don't vulture tourists and create your own +EV situations, it is hard to see how you make much money in Vegas. I would not want to spend my days doing vulturing. I think it is easier to hustle in isolated casinos. It is easier to make decent money doing other sorts of gambling. My impression is that a lot of hustlers do it because they have no documentation or skills to get a good job.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
DRich
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August 22nd, 2023 at 2:19:15 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: NYCAP

Most people that get into this type of work have previous casino experience. More often than not, they have bad casino habits and bad life leaks.

Dedicated hustlers can make 120K/year, especially in Vegas where there are tons of games and tons of casinos. They sit and scout all day. Do you think they pay taxes? That's 180K job pretax. It takes effort and time and it takes over their lives but they do make good money. Easy money? Hardly...

Unfortunately, a lot of these guys make a few hundred hustling and head to the pits or get bored and take bad plays or just play straight up. They give back what they make. This is likely why casinos are not nearly as hard on vultures as they are on other forms of AP.
link to original post

All the successful gamblers that I know pay taxes on their winnings. Most of them had jobs that paid much better than $120K/yr in today's dollars and had paid vacations and benefits and a five day work week.

I have played AP slots in Vegas and seen hustlers coming by ever two minutes checking the same machines. If you don't vulture tourists and create your own +EV situations, it is hard to see how you make much money in Vegas. I would not want to spend my days doing vulturing. I think it is easier to hustle in isolated casinos. It is easier to make decent money doing other sorts of gambling. My impression is that a lot of hustlers do it because they have no documentation or skills to get a good job.
link to original post



It would be difficult to make $120k a year consistently if all you were doing was vulturing.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Mental
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August 22nd, 2023 at 7:01:30 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

It would be difficult to make $120k a year consistently if all you were doing was vulturing.
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I don't know where the $120K number came from. I suspect that hustlers who don't pay taxes and use cash for everyday expenses have no real idea how much they earn in a year. However, they might give you a income number when asked. I don't know what that works out to in dollars per hour or dollars per mile.

'Consistently' is also a key word. The difference between my net income in my best earning year and my worst earning year is many times larger than $120K. Maybe if your typical play has a very small amount of risk and you do thousands of small plays per year, you could earn a consistent income. I am a high variance kind of player.
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100xOdds
100xOdds 
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August 23rd, 2023 at 5:16:58 AM permalink
Quote: NYCAP

Dedicated hustlers can make 120K/year, especially in Vegas where there are tons of games and tons of casinos. They sit and scout all day.

Do you think they pay taxes? That's 180K job pretax. It takes effort and time and it takes over their lives but they do make good money. Easy money? Hardly...
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If they don't deposit the $ into the bank, it can't be easy to spend only cash at 6figure amounts? (ie: Amazon or buying anything online, buying a car, etc)

And if they do deposit $ into the bank (ie: billpay/debit card), how does the IRS not come after them?
I bet $100k+ is worth their time to investigate?
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100xOdds
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August 23rd, 2023 at 5:27:55 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

It would be difficult to make $120k a year consistently if all you were doing was vulturing.
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Yeah, checking Ultimate X for multiplier's ain't going to get you 6figures per yr, every year.
In Vegas, you have to work in teams to make the big $$$.
I heard a chinese team of 5 makes $300k/yr each on the Strip.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
DRich
DRich
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August 23rd, 2023 at 8:16:36 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: DRich

It would be difficult to make $120k a year consistently if all you were doing was vulturing.
link to original post

Yeah, checking Ultimate X for multiplier's ain't going to get you 6figures per yr, every year.
In Vegas, you have to work in teams to make the big $$$.
I heard a chinese team of 5 makes $300k/yr each on the Strip.
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I would assume they are doing more than vulturing if they are pulling down $1.5 million.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
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