Lion's Share
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have another idea for deconstructing slot machines.
While playing VP, I had an attendant use her key to check something on the machine. As she was going through the menus, the game and its payout was listed (although the payout listed for this particular VP game was actually wrong -- it was a little higher than the expected return with optimal strategy, and could not be explained by rounding).
Anyway, I wonder if coming up with some BS excuse to get the attendant to do the same at a slot game would allow you to see the theoretical return that the machine is set to. This could be very useful for figuring out when games with small progressives, or must-hit-by jackpots, are +EV. Has anyone ever tried this?? ("I swear I got 5 quick hits 4 spins ago, but it didn't pay me the jackpot...")
It would be a little helpful, but you still really need the frequency of the progressive event too.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI got to witness this a few weeks back when Motorcity downgraded the VP there. All they had to do was change the percentage and it looked accurate to me.
The one I saw was not far off but it was wrong. it was given to 4 significant digits (ie, 99.xx%) and it was off by more than 0.01% (so it was not a result of rounding)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe one I saw was not far off but it was wrong. it was given to 4 significant digits (ie, 99.xx%) and it was off by more than 0.01% (so it was not a result of rounding)
Do you possibly remember the game and exact payback percentage? Sadly I'm curious.
Quote: tringlomaneIt would be a little helpful, but you still really need the frequency of the progressive event too.
Yes, but this information is sometimes available (eg, Mission's QHP link -- we just need to know which of the 5 settings the game is set to), and, even if it's not, it would be easier to deconstruct on its own than to try to do everything.
I just saw a very strange quick hits machine. It was quick hits, and had a wheel spinning bonus feature. There were free games symbols on reels 1, 3, and 5, and a wheel spin symbols on reels 2, 3, and 4 (not possible to get free games and wheel spins at the same time because there is no reel 3 stop with both). Free games were always 12 games at 2x pays. Wheel spins were "pick til you match 3", with possibilities being 1 spin @1x, 1 spin @2x, 1 spin @3x, 2 spins @2x, 3 spins @1x. Wheel spins during free games were multiplied by the 2x free spin multiplier too (I hit this). The wheel went from 150x your line bet (not total bet -- ie, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5) all the way to 50,000x your line bet. Obviously the wheel is strongly biased towards the lower values.
The strange part was the quick hits jackpots. Usually, they reset to the same bet multiplier as the short-coining pays. This one paid 6x (not 10x) your bet for 5 QH with less than max bet. But the strange part is, this was a $2 max-bet machine (bet 40c, 80c, 120c, 160c, or 200c), but, the 5QH jackpot (which I hit 3x on 3 different machines) did not reset at $12. It reset at $15.90. I have never seen such an odd reset value before. Unfortunately I didn't hit any of the higher jackpots so I couldn't see what they reset at.
Quote: Mission146The same numbers used to be available on the Bally Tech site, but they have since taken them down, may have been made public by mistake, and I assume that is where ArcadeHistory got them.
Yeah, that's always been my assumption too. They could be made up out of thin air, but I sorta doubt it.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah, that's always been my assumption too. They could be made up out of thin air, but I sorta doubt it.
No, they were definitely there. I had them before the ArcadeHistory was ever linked.
I'm sure you are nit dumb enough to mix this up, but just to make sure, are you sure you are not seeing what the machine is paying back at that particular time? This could be off from what the real numbers are. It could be running good on Jackpots or some crap.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI have another idea for deconstructing slot machines.
While playing VP, I had an attendant use her key to check something on the machine. As she was going through the menus, the game and its payout was listed (although the payout listed for this particular VP game was actually wrong -- it was a little higher than the expected return with optimal strategy, and could not be explained by rounding).
Anyway, I wonder if coming up with some BS excuse to get the attendant to do the same at a slot game would allow you to see the theoretical return that the machine is set to. This could be very useful for figuring out when games with small progressives, or must-hit-by jackpots, are +EV. Has anyone ever tried this?? ("I swear I got 5 quick hits 4 spins ago, but it didn't pay me the jackpot...")
Quote: AxelWolfI'm sure you are nit dumb enough to mix this up, but just to make sure, are you sure you are not seeing what the machine is paying back at that particular time? This could be off from what the real numbers are. It could be running good on Jackpots or some crap.
lol no trust me, I had been playing for a while, and it wasn't running good on anything. It was not far off the right value; I think that IGT just wrote the wrong number in the software for that paytable. It's no big deal (we are talking about 0.01% here); I just thought it was amusing.
Quote: WizardI've recorded playing slots for at least an hour in total and nobody has ever said anything. YouTube is full of videos of people playing them. Most casinos still have a "no photography" policy, but with cell phones it has become so ubiquitous that they turn a blind eye to it if done discretely.
When I hit a royal flush last week the host asked me if I had taken a pic to share. They actually encourage people to share their "Barona Moment" on Instagram and Facebook. They realize the power of social media as free advertising particularly when it's people winning jackpots.
I remember in about 1988 when I was in Las Vegas for a computer convention and my boss was asked to leave a casino because he was wearing a cell phone on his belt (one of those large Motorola brick phones). Times change and the casinos have to adapt to the changes in technology obviously.
Quote: rudeboyoiMaybe go there with a friend and leave some credits in the machine. Then disappear to the bathroom. Have your friend then play for a bit putting in some random assortment of bills. Then come back and call over a slot attendant to see if they can help figure out whose credits belong to whom. Then hopefully you will also be able to see the payback percentage.
Ok, that is smart
Quote: onenickelmiracleI asked the slot attendant at Mountaineer if it was even possible for him to look up the payback percentage and he said no. I have no way of knowing if he was telling the truth but I believed he was. I would think if the casino had no reason to tell an employee, he would be blocked by procedures from discovering it. Can't be sure of this either or if older machines made it easier.
I don't know; maybe they only have it for VP, since anyone can figure it out from the paytables anyway.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI don't know; maybe they only have it for VP, since anyone can figure it out from the paytables anyway.
Every machine that I know of has the ability to show the configured payback percentage. It is possible that only some employees have the ability to view it. Some machines require a different chip or configuration key to see it. I believe the new IGT's require a special USB key to be inserted to view/configure the payback percentage.
If so, whats it running at now?
Quote: CroupierSorry for possibly bumping this needlessly, but is Lion's Share still unclaimed?
If so, whats it running at now?
As of Saturday, May 17th it was not hit.
I couldnt be bothered checking the whole thread, and thought I might have missed it.
Anyone think it might still be there August 2015? :P
Quote: CroupierAnyone think it might still be there August 2015? :P
Not if I decide to play it next trip ;)
Quote: NareedI'm 99.999999+% certain the news will be plastered all over this forum when it does hit.
So you're telling me there's a chance.
Quote: CroupierAnyone think it might still be there August 2015? :P
I would easily make an even money wager on it.
To long and not enough.Quote: Mikey75Is this thing ever going to hit?? How long has this progressive been running anyway? Anyone know what the current figure is at?
Quote: Mikey75Is this thing ever going to hit?? How long has this progressive been running anyway? Anyone know what the current figure is at?
Eventually. Approaching $2.5M last I saw.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIt's probably in Revelations as a sign of the apocalypse, so just waiting for the right time to pop. ;)
"When Jesus returns he will pull the Lion handle and win it all." That part was edited out of the Bible.
Quote: NareedI'm 99.999999+% certain the news will be plastered all over this forum when it does hit.
You mean like when that underaged girl hit it last month?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/17653-lions-share-has-been-hit-but-she-was-underaged/
Quote: tringlomaneI would easily make an even money wager on it.
are you a Vegas local? if so I've got $20 and a beer that says it will be hit before I get to see it.
I'm provisionally arriving 9th August 2015, but 11hr flight always wipes me out, so lets make the over under hit date midnight (Vegas Time) on 10th August 2015.
Quote: Croupierare you a Vegas local? if so I've got $20 and a beer that says it will be hit before I get to see it.
Now I'm wondering if bookies somewhere are taking bets on the mahcine hitting... How would you go about setting a line?
BTW, is it worth playing?
I saw it, because of its (rather meager) historical value. It's pretty much a legend by now and it seems to be getting a lot of play. If I were to put in $100, like most people seem to be doing, what are my odds of walking away with any kind of win? I know the odds of hitting the progressive are ridiculously long.
I just updated my Lion's Share page with the new data. The bottom line is that when combining my own data and that from other sources, including our own AxiomOfChoice, I get a return of 103.6%.
That jackpot as of yesterday, May 29, 2014, was $2,378,882.
I should also add that the light inside the machine that illuminates the reels flickers in and out.
Quote: WizardI just updated my Lion's Share page with the new data. The bottom line is that when combining my own data and that from other sources, including our own AxiomOfChoice, I get a return of 103.6%.
So, it's the best game in town then. And yet, it's not.
Quote: Croupierare you a Vegas local? if so I've got $20 and a beer that says it will be hit before I get to see it.
I'm provisionally arriving 9th August 2015, but 11hr flight always wipes me out, so lets make the over under hit date midnight (Vegas Time) on 10th August 2015.
I'm not a Vegas local unfortunately, so any bet would have to be resolved another way.
Quote: NareedNow I'm wondering if bookies somewhere are taking bets on the mahcine hitting... How would you go about setting a line?
Stealing a PAR sheet? haha
Quote: Wizard
I should also add that the light inside the machine that illuminates the reels flickers in and out.
LOL...definitely overdue.
Quote: WizardI just updated my Lion's Share page with the new data. The bottom line is that when combining my own data and that from other sources, including our own AxiomOfChoice, I get a return of 103.6%.
I'm starting to wonder if you are the luckiest person on this forum, or if I'm the unluckiest. I'm leaning towards the latter!!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceQuote: WizardI just updated my Lion's Share page with the new data. The bottom line is that when combining my own data and that from other sources, including our own AxiomOfChoice, I get a return of 103.6%.
I'm starting to wonder if you are the luckiest person on this forum, or if I'm the unluckiest. I'm leaning towards the latter!!
I dunno... 100.46% without the jackpot on his data? 99.41% without the progressive with Smokalott's data and yours mixed in??? I highly doubt the machine is set that well!!! Wiz is definitely hot on the Lions and possibly the other symbols I think.
Completely made up the lotto team but I think there is one.
Quote: onenickelmiracleDoes it ever get high enough to buy the machine? You would think not based on not being able to declare losses from a failed year unless Mrs. X's lottery team gets to it who wouldn't mind the deduction.
Completely made up the lotto team but I think there is one.
Considering you can only write off losses vs. W2G worthy wins (which is 3 lions or the jackpot) I doubt it. You will always get dinged when you hit the jackpot, unless you have a huge loss like you theoretically suggested with the lottery team. But if you have a lottery team that's somehow +EV, when you hit, then you'll pay double taxes from the Lion's Share and the lottery.
Quote: thecesspitNeed to import some players who can escape paying US taxes on winnings to play off the machine.
How would these players accomplish that?
Quote: rxwineQuote: WizardI just updated my Lion's Share page with the new data. The bottom line is that when combining my own data and that from other sources, including our own AxiomOfChoice, I get a return of 103.6%.
So, it's the best game in town then. And yet, it's not.
Yup, that was my experience several months ago playing this machine.
I stuck in 21 bucks and had my best slot run ever in my life.
I expected to be on the machine less then a minute, instead I went on a 20 min run.
My 21 bucks went as high as 150.00.
Any normal machine, I'm cashing out after going up 150. This machine, you always play it down to 0.
Its like the James Bond production company, EON, everything or nothing.
Quote: WizardHow would these players accomplish that?
I think by residing in Canada.
Quote: IbeatyouracesBe from a tax exempt country...
http://www.businessinsider.com/pius-heinz-poker-taxes-2011-11
Pretty much this in response to the Wizard's question. If the Taxation on the jackpot turns it from +EV to -EV, then avoid the tax.
Quote: NareedI think by residing in Canada.
We pay 30% automatic withholding off the top. We can then can file a US income tax return and claim the win as income. For relatively small amounts we would not owe much with standard US deductions. The remainder does not have to be claimed on our Canadian return because gambling winnings are tax free in Canada. With the Lions Share the win would be high enough that the basic US deductions would be essentially meaningless and you would face a high US tax liability that would take a good accountant to mitigate.
Lines 10a Through 10c—Gambling Winnings-Residents of Canada
If you are a resident of Canada who is not engaged in the trade or business of gambling, enter all gambling winnings on line 10a. Include proceeds from lotteries and raffles. Do not include winnings from blackjack, baccarat, craps, roulette, or big-6 wheel. You can deduct your U.S. source gambling losses to the extent of your U.S. source gambling winnings. Enter your gambling losses on line 10b. Enter your net gambling income on line 10c, column (c). If line 10b is more than line 10a, enter -0- on line 10c. A net loss from gambling activities is not deductible.
Being Canadian is not good enough. You need to be a EU tax payer :
Line 11—Gambling Winnings-Residents of Countries Other Than Canada
Residents of one of the following countries who are not engaged in the trade or business of gambling enter all gambling winnings on line 11, column (d), specifying 0%: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Russia, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom.
Quote: kenarman... and you would face a high US tax liability that would take a good accountant to mitigate.
Thank you.
Quote: thecesspitBeing Canadian is not good enough.
Thank you, and Kenarman, too. I'd just seed the ads at the airport saying something about witheld taxes from Canadian gamblers.
BTW, it's too bad the US and Nevada don't offer foreigners a rebate on sales taxes.
Quote: terapined
My 21 bucks went as high as 150.00.
Any normal machine, I'm cashing out after going up 150. This machine, you always play it down to 0.
Its like the James Bond production company, EON, everything or nothing.
Nah, I'd have taken the Kitty Cat's share.
