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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson 
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July 10th, 2013 at 1:56:54 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

On moving the progressive to other machines Alan, it would place all the other machines way out of whack, so it would be pointless to just give the money away with easier odds.



True, but the point of the regulations is that the casino can't hold on to the progressive money. It MUST be distributed back to the players.

If for example, MGM wanted to get rid of the Lions Share machine they could take that 2+ million and add it to the jackpots, for example, on video poker machines and make royals pay 5,000 coins. Or they could split up that 2+ million on other, smaller progressive machines. Theoretically, they could even have a drawing for it. They just can't keep it.

Caesars is following the law -- maybe not the spirit. They can't keep the progressive money already on the machine, but they can stop it from building up. But if that's what they did they had to get a chip change and I wonder if they had to file paperwork with the NGC to tell them what they did? It wouldnt be a problem, they would just have to be up front about it. And why not?

The Lions Share machine is a pain in the butt for the MGM. Coins pay out, they have to keep filing the hopper, no ticket system.

A few years ago when I wanted to cash out $101 (put $100 in and played awhile) the hopper ran dry after about 28 coins fell out. They couldnt find the key for the hopper... and after about a half hour they just paid me cash.
slyther
slyther
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July 10th, 2013 at 9:34:44 AM permalink
There is a sign on Lion Share that says all cashouts are hand pay. Mine was a hand pay a couple weeks ago.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 10th, 2013 at 10:11:32 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

A few years ago when I wanted to cash out $101 (put $100 in and played awhile) the hopper ran dry after about 28 coins fell out. They couldnt find the key for the hopper... and after about a half hour they just paid me cash.



Empty hoppers are a feature in the Slot Museum at the Ditz, too. The nickels Loose Deuces does have a sign stating pays over 1,000 coins are done by the attendant. But I can't tell you offhand how often they refilled the hopper for pays of between $15 and $30.

It's logical, though. You buy in with bills, not coins. Assuming the hopper can hold only 1,000 nickels, as per the sign, then it should be depleted rather quickly in a positive expectation game.
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onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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July 10th, 2013 at 11:37:53 AM permalink
Just a point Alan, I think only the amount added to the progressive has to be transferred and in the case of LS, it would be 1.2 million if it started at 1 million.
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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson 
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July 10th, 2013 at 12:20:40 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

Just a point Alan, I think only the amount added to the progressive has to be transferred and in the case of LS, it would be 1.2 million if it started at 1 million.



That would be correct. The progressive amount belonging to the players would be the contribution over and above the seeded amount offered by the casino.

Last time I was at MGM (before I ran into trouble winning at craps) was more than five years ago. I guess they did away with their coins and hopper fills?
camapl
camapl
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July 11th, 2013 at 1:12:18 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

That would be correct. The progressive amount belonging to the players would be the contribution over and above the seeded amount offered by the casino.



This is true. The Gaming Control Board's website can give us some insight in Regulation 5A.145:

7. Except as otherwise provided by this section, the incremental amount of a progressive payoff schedule is an obligation to the operator痴 authorized players, and it shall be the responsibility of the operator, if he ceases operation of the progressive game, to arrange satisfaction of that obligation to the satisfaction of the chairman.

By definition, the incremental amount is the amount of increase over the "base amount" or seed value. So, the above indicates that something must be done with the "extra" amount but is non-specific as to what, as long as there is approval from the chairman of the GCB.

From what I have heard (from casino staff), if the money is moved to existing progressives, it must be made "as easy or easier" to hit. For example, moving such funds from a dollar royal to a quarter royal is OK, but not the other way around. Generally speaking for vp, keno, reels, etc., they would need to account for both bet size and likelihood.

Quote: JB

That's what I mean. If, before the freeze, each bet contributed 1% to the progressive, the casino is now pocketing that amount from every bet made after the freeze, which the jackpot winner would have otherwise won. I agree that it follows the letter of the law, but I'm not sure if it follows the spirit of the law. However, I would be willing to bet that any Nevada court would rule in favor of the casino if there were ever a lawsuit over the casino using this loophole.



Don't think the courts would need to intervene, as long as the casino followed the proper procedures...

4. An operator may change the rate of progression of any progressive payoff schedule provided that records of such changes are created.

I have seen a User Manual for a slot that outlines how to define the values of a vp, keno, and/or video reels progessive, including the initial rate of meter rise and a later threshold amount at which the rate may be changed, including changing it to zero. On a machine like this (for example), a casino could set a progressive jackpot starting at $1,000 to rise at 1% until it reaches $2,000, then it could either stop at that value, rise more slowly, or rise more rapidly. If they do not specify the higher value, then the meter just continues at the 1% rate until the jackpot is reached. So basically, this could be specified/programmed into the machine, and as long as it is properly recorded, all is fair per Gaming.

Yet another reason to be aware of what you're playing before you invest your bankroll! I have seen a nickel royal max at $500 at one casino that had quarter and dollar royal progressives on the very same machines, and I have seen a dollar progressive max out at $10K. 2.5x reset - am I seeing a pattern?
* Actual results may vary.
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
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July 11th, 2013 at 1:23:46 AM permalink
Quote: camapl

2.5x reset - am I seeing a pattern?


Yeah, it's a compete raping of the public trust. Almost all progressives are phoney anymore because in the old days, the wisdom was progressives have a heavier risk, but sometimes, they can become good bets. Now you just get the disadvantage and casinos see the money players contribute as already theirs in the first place. It's almost like a new casino commandment now is "Thou shall never satisfy player". Base games play like shit and progressives move a penny for a twenty lost. 2.5% of coin-in became .025% incrementation. All regulators care about is minimum payback now and it seems it's carte blanche for everything else.
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear 
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July 11th, 2013 at 8:51:03 AM permalink
You've got the progressive seed money thing wrong.

The casino does not provide any seed money. It is just a minimum guarantee that the casino will cover should the jackpot be hit early.

In other words, the meter starts at whatever amount, and advances slowly until the 1% (or whatever percent) in the bank for the progressive totals what is shown on the meter. In some cases, it may continue to advance slowly until a reserve of some value is established to re-seed the meter after it gets hit.

Only if there are early hits and/or multiple hits does the casino cough up any of its own money. But only temporarily. If that happens, then the meter advances slowly until that money is recovered, and continues slowly until the amount banked matches the meter.
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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson 
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July 11th, 2013 at 9:10:55 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

You've got the progressive seed money thing wrong.

The casino does not provide any seed money. It is just a minimum guarantee that the casino will cover should the jackpot be hit early.



You're talking like a lawyer... I think all of us "get it."

The first million dollars is put up by the casino -- so it's not the players' money. I think we accept it to be "seed money" but you can use another term such as the casino's guaranteed minimum.

When you look at any progressive that has for example a 1-million guarantee but the jackpot is $1,100,000 then the only amount that belongs to the players is the additional $100,000 over and above the $1,000,000 guaranteed or seeded or put up by the casino.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Only if there are early hits and/or multiple hits does the casino cough up any of its own money. But only temporarily. If that happens, then the meter advances slowly until that money is recovered, and continues slowly until the amount banked matches the meter.



I don't know of any casino progressive where what you describe actually happens. If so, where? What casino? The first progressive or base amount is the caisno's money at risk. It is the casino's lure to get you to play games that are harder to hit -- that have a bigger house edge.

This is very easy to see on video poker progressives. At Rincon for example the $5 progressive starts at $20,000 for the royal and with each hand played the progressive increases by 25-cents. The only "progressive amount" belonging to the players is the amount above the normal payout of $20,000 for a royal.

The progressive increases 25 cents on each and every play, in equal steps.

The casino is not paid back for its $20,000 first.

In the case of the Lions Share, the first million of play contributions did not go to MGM. MGM "seeded" the progressive with the first million.
camapl
camapl
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July 11th, 2013 at 5:33:48 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

At Rincon for example the $5 progressive starts at $20,000 for the royal and with each hand played the progressive increases by 25-cents.



That's pretty decent for Harrah's, at least compared to Reno & Lake Tahoe! Even for a $5 denom... I mean I'm not jumping for joy at a 1% meter, but when the VP at Harrah's Reno is all at about 0.25% for single- and multi-meters and Harrah's & Harvey's Lake Tahoe are mostly at 0.5%, I have to say that it's nice to see something a little higher at a Harrah's property!

I can't recall... Has anyone determined the meter rise for the Lion's Share slot (the guest of honor on this thread)?
* Actual results may vary.

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