weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 7th, 2018 at 12:07:15 PM permalink
You always lose even when you win. There are two methods the online bandits make sure you always LOSE.

1) SIGN UP BONUS
Some of them bandits offer outrageous bonuses! I saw bonuses of 5000 Euros! ONE MUST AVOID THE BONUSES AT ALL COSTS! I knew about that extortion scheme and I declined the bonus. One must read carefully before accepting the signup bonus:

“Prior to accepting any bonus, you will be notified of the total Rollover Point amount that is tied to each bonus. This Rollover Point amount needs to be met in full prior to being able to request a withdrawal.”

Accepting the signup bonus is like accepting your own imprisonment. You are tied to your online account until you lose your money entirely. If you win, you can’t withdraw your money that includes the bonus. You must bet again and again and again. If you want to claim the bonus you must bet, on average, 10 times your initial deposit. Chances are big the vast majority of players will lose all their money after, say, 5 bets. Lose all your money means you also lost your signup “bonus”.

2) WITHDRAWAL
This is the most outrageous tactic applied by the online bandits. I put an online casino to the test. I placed a bet in the last Super Bowl. I had a high level of confidence I’d win by betting on Philadelphia Eagles +5. I did win easily as I posted my bet at least two days before the game.

Now, I wanted to withdraw all the money in my account.
First, the player is hit by an outrageous FEE: US$ 60. The worst is still to come. Here is what the online criminal casino I dealt with email me after my withdrawal request:

“Thank you for contacting GTbets.eu.
• We would like to inform you that in order to receive a payout, should you have deposited by credit, prepaid or debit card, you will be required to fill out our Credit Card Authorization Form verifying the original charges before any payments can be processed.
• We need from you:
• Front & Back copy of the credit card ending – ****
• Front & Back copy of your ID
• Signed authorization form ( Contact us for the electronic form)
• Recent utility bill ( not older than 3 months)”


They already verified my ID and also security requirements when I opened my account. Now, they go dangerously further, including disclosing sensitive information. Revealing credit card and other personal data can lead and usually leads to DISASTER: ID theft, banking breaches, etc. But the criminals claim: “… the security procedures are given to you in the email so you can protect yourself from Identity theft as well.”

Those “requirements” are only elements of a scheme to make it virtually impossible to withdraw your own money. Forget about bonus and all that garbage!

I warned about the criminal online gambling outlets in the early 2000s. The online bandits are more sophisticated than ever — and more criminal than ever!

There have been strong warnings all over the Internet:

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 844. html
“Online, Internet Casinos Survive Only by Cheating the Gamblers.”

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 850. html
“Reports of Cheating in Online, Internet Gambling.”

But, hey, all gambling has always been the realm of organized crime. You go to Las Vegas, enter a casino, and gamble with the hope of winning. No one is warned at the entrance “You are not allowed to win!” It happens that you win, the casino management starts panicking; they fear you are a “trained winner”. You might as well end up in what they call “back room”. They might as well beat the lights out of you…
billryan
billryan
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March 7th, 2018 at 12:19:47 PM permalink
You lost money on the Super Bowl just to prove a point you already knew?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 7th, 2018 at 1:04:10 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

You lost money on the Super Bowl just to prove a point you already knew?


I’ll get my money back (less $60), don’t worry. I didn’t bet big. But I gathered valuable evidence to fight the online bandits.

This should be a law for all online gamblers:

DO NOT TOSS YOUR MONEY IN THE CYBER ABYSS! THE ONLINE CASINOS WILL TIE UP ALL YOUR FUNDS, FORCING YOU TO BET, AND BET, AND BET… UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT IN YOUR ACCOUNT.

Betting on horses is the best path, at horse tracks or off-track-wagering (OTW) facilities. They are legal, they are correct, they pay you to the last dime, and they never cheat you. (Maybe mafia still barge their ugly noses in some races, here and there, now and then — but cheating is now far, far less present.)

Even underground sport betting is better than online betting. The shadow bookies still pay you. I heard some shadow bookies did get mad in the past; that happens far, far more rarely now.
lilredrooster
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March 7th, 2018 at 1:08:17 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

You always lose even when you win. There are two methods the online bandits make sure you always LOSE.




I believe there is a lot of truth in what you are saying.

Even more amazing is that when you google " GTbets.eu reviews" the four top results show 3.5, 4.5, 4.5, and 4 out of 5 stars.

Since when you search reviews of anything you almost never get 5 out of 5 stars the 4.5 star rating GTbets.eu got from safebettingsites.com and bettingbrain.com is suspicious.

The online betting business is a travesty. Maybe not with every site but with a lot of them.

But many gamblers don't really even care; they don't really play to win.

They just want to get as much action as they can before their $ disappear into the black hole.

Very nice and helpful post for those wise enough to heed it.
Please don't feed the trolls
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 7th, 2018 at 2:43:42 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

I’ll get my money back (less $60), don’t worry. I didn’t bet big. But I gathered valuable evidence to fight the online bandits.

This should be a law for all online gamblers:

DO NOT TOSS YOUR MONEY IN THE CYBER ABYSS! THE ONLINE CASINOS WILL TIE UP ALL YOUR FUNDS, FORCING YOU TO BET, AND BET, AND BET… UNTIL THERE IS NOTHING LEFT IN YOUR ACCOUNT.

Betting on horses is the best path, at horse tracks or off-track-wagering (OTW) facilities. They are legal, they are correct, they pay you to the last dime, and they never cheat you. (Maybe mafia still barge their ugly noses in some races, here and there, now and then — but cheating is now far, far less present.)

Even underground sport betting is better than online betting. The shadow bookies still pay you. I heard some shadow bookies did get mad in the past; that happens far, far more rarely now.



Somehow scared after a short communication and hearing about authorities, they changed their position somehow:

“If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 7th, 2018 at 3:03:58 PM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

I believe there is a lot of truth in what you are saying.

Even more amazing is that when you google " GTbets.eu reviews" the four top results show 3.5, 4.5, 4.5, and 4 out of 5 stars.

Since when you search reviews of anything you almost never get 5 out of 5 stars the 4.5 star rating GTbets.eu got from safebettingsites.com and bettingbrain.com is suspicious.

The online betting business is a travesty. Maybe not with every site but with a lot of them.

But many gamblers don't really even care; they don't really play to win.

They just want to get as much action as they can before their $ disappear into the black hole.

Very nice and helpful post for those wise enough to heed it.



You right. Some people want action, just action. I believe, however, that the majority of gamblers who open accounts with online casinos WANT TO WIN. A good percentage of them even believe they can win BIB-BIG!

Of course, they all are disappointed sooner or later. The “terms of service” are very well-hidden at sign-up. The intent of the online casinos is very clear: HIDE discouraging information. The Law always takes INTENT into account.

As for “reviews”, they are either written by the bandits themselves, or, the reviews are paid-for. Like those fake reviews on Amazon. Or like the requests I have received to publish “articles” written by online gambling outlets.

The bottom line is: Gamblers, expect your online accounts to reach 0 (zero, zilch, nada) even if you happen to win now and then. There are the individual withdrawal fees. You would think: “Well, I’ll bet some more and win some more. Then I withdraw larger sums and pay one fee only.” Yeah, but several consecutive bets will guarantee a higher probability to lose. Remember, you play against a house edge.

And then, if you are that lucky, you accept the withdrawal fee. The online bandits/criminals thought it out. They ask you to send very risky information by email, like credit card info, banking info. That kind of info bears very high risks. You might lose a lot more than your net winnings. Again, if you are that lucky and withstand a long series of bets…
MrV
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March 7th, 2018 at 3:59:24 PM permalink
Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins.

'Nuf said.
Last edited by: MrV on Mar 7, 2018
"What, me worry?"
terapined
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March 7th, 2018 at 5:11:05 PM permalink
A few years ago when Zuga and his gang bought the site and put up online casino ads, I looked closely into this out of curiosity
I read all the fine print
It was pretty awful
Bottom line, if an online casino does not want to pay, they really don't have to due to the fine print.


"In the event that Las Vegas USA Casino believes a User is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by Las Vegas USA Casino then Las Vegas USA Casino may, in its absolute discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from a User any bonus or other promotion, or rescind any policy in respect of that User, either temporarily or permanently. "

The 1st sentence the key word is "believes" I would rather see the word "proves"

They follow UK law

"This Agreement, the interpretation and execution thereof, and the relationship between the parties, shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the United Kingdom."

Yet you have to file in Panama which is pretty weird.

"Any claim or dispute arising either directly or indirectly out of this Agreement, shall be brought before the competent court of the country of Panama which court shall have exclusive jurisdiction"
terapined
terapined
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March 7th, 2018 at 5:18:12 PM permalink
Just to pile on
They really really want you to take the bonus
The bonus in reality sucks because you are locked and cant make a withdrawal till you have played a ton.
They don't make it easy to reject the bonus

If you sign up, you have to take a bonus. Strange they don't let you sign up without a bonus. If you don't want the bonus, you have accept the bonus then send an email to remove the bonus.

"If you do not wish to participate, deposit and then email your request to
support@lasvegasusa.eu to remove the bonus funds before playing"
Mission146
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March 7th, 2018 at 6:34:31 PM permalink
The cashout fee should have been in the Terms and could have been known before deposit, shame on the casino, if not.

As far as the information needed to get the withdrawal, extremely standard. I believe an online casino in a state such as NJ would want the same thing.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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March 7th, 2018 at 6:44:09 PM permalink
I just went to the Cashier section and found:

BAD: Every payout method except Bitcoin has a fee.

GOOD: You can go to the cashier and come to know this without signing up or talking to anyone, much less making a deposit.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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March 7th, 2018 at 6:51:51 PM permalink
Also, if you do a Live Chat or send an Email SOME casinos (I can’t speak for all of them) will let you block out the middle eight digits of the CC number as well as the three digit security code on back.

The signed authorization form is so that they don’t pay you out only for you to later dispute the charges with your CC after you have cashed the check, effectively free-rolling them and getting your deposit, winnings and refunded the amount you deposited via chargeback reversal.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
sabre
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March 7th, 2018 at 10:35:00 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins.

'Nuf said.



Agreed. Nobody lives in a home or has a ski condo purchased from winnings from exploiting online casinos that suck at math.

Nope, nobody at all ...
AxelWolf
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March 8th, 2018 at 12:16:43 AM permalink
Can I get a link to this casino that only has 10x rollover requirement your initial deposit, PLEASE? Thanks in advance.

You told people how bad online casinos were in 2000?

Meanwhile, savvy players were absolutely crushing the online casinos during the early 2000's.

I highly regret not spending more time and investing more money playing online casinos back then(and even to some degree now).
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Nathan
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March 8th, 2018 at 12:30:29 AM permalink
I believe the OP when he points out how shady online Casinos can get. A poster on this website said something like he put $400 in an online Casino and immediately decided he no longer wanted to risk his money in an online Casino and tried to get his $400 back before he even played and the Casino wouldn't give him back his unplayed $400. That's messed up!
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
lilredrooster
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March 8th, 2018 at 5:23:40 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

As far as the information needed to get the withdrawal, extremely standard.



He says they need all this for the withdrawal:

We need from you:
• Front & Back copy of the credit card ending – ****
• Front & Back copy of your ID
• Signed authorization form ( Contact us for the electronic form)
• Recent utility bill ( not older than 3 months)”

If they needed all that for the withdrawal why didn't they also need it and already have it for the deposit?

If he had lost and had not provided all that documentation in his deposit would they have questioned the validity of his original deposit and re-processed it demanding more documents or they could not consider the validity of his loss and his deposit would be voided?

They need a utility bill? Come on. Really.

And also this: • “If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”
Why would they refund anything to him. If his claim for his winnings requires so much additional verification why would his claim for his deposit not require a lot more too. Gee whiz. Could it be because they would like to pocket his winnings?

And also this: " First, the player is hit by an outrageous FEE: US$ 60."

So very obvious that they suck up deposits easily but its like pulling teeth to get your win out of there.

It's not in any way equal in reputability to most brick and mortar casinos.
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Mar 8, 2018
Please don't feed the trolls
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 5:50:05 AM permalink
Quote: Nathan

I believe the OP when he points out how shady online Casinos can get. A poster on this website said something like he put $400 in an online Casino and immediately decided he no longer wanted to risk his money in an online Casino and tried to get his $400 back before he even played and the Casino wouldn't give him back his unplayed $400. That's messed up!



Terms and Conditions of many online casinos require a 1x playthrough requirement on deposited funds even if no bonus was taken.

A. It proves the player intended to play.

B. The casinos are worried that a player might deposit money, withdraw and immediately request a chargeback. They have almost zero recourse if a player does that. The casino cuts a check for the deposited funds, it gets cashed and the player reverses the credit card transaction.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Mar 8, 2018
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 6:36:43 AM permalink
LilRedRooster,

I'll address parts of your posts individually, but the Terms are either upfront or they are not. In this case, they are. Feel free to look at:

https://www.gtbets.eu/depositoptions

Where it says, right up top:

Quote:

Please note, all depositing clients must provide documentation prior to receiving a withdrawal, and prior to making their 6th deposit. Documentation includes front and back copies of all credit cards used, a valid state/govt photo ID, a signed authorization form, and a copy of a recent utility bill.



Now, if you look at the payout methods:

https://www.gtbets.eu/withdrawoptions

The Terms and the fees are clearly listed.

In other words, the OP is complaining of Terms that were clearly stated and readily found NOT JUST before the deposit was made, but before an account even needs to be created to begin with. To wit, I don't have an account at that site and it took me one click on the, "Cashier," section to discover all of this.

Quote: lilredrooster

He says they need all this for the withdrawal:

We need from you:
• Front & Back copy of the credit card ending – ****
• Front & Back copy of your ID
• Signed authorization form ( Contact us for the electronic form)
• Recent utility bill ( not older than 3 months)”



Which they said upfront they would need for a withdrawal, before an account even needs to be created.

The credit card copy proves the player physically possesses the card and that said player's name is on the card.

The ID proves that is who the player is and that the player's ID and credit card matches in terms of name.

The signed authorization form is so that the player cannot request a chargeback (which he/she would almost definitely get otherwise...and could theoretically get anyway) after the payment has been made and completed.

The utility bill proves the address is current. While standard, I don't know why it is necessary. I don't know that there is any sensitive information on a utility bill, though.

As far as any sensitive information on the other documents, like I said, some casinos will let you obscure or cover up certain parts of those things. I've never had them tell me no on covering up the middle eight numbers of the credit card as well as the security code. If your SSN is on your DL and you talk to them and explain you would like that covered, I'm sure they would let you. I don't know if it's still done, but I know in the past that some states made your SSN your DL#...I believe Missouri was one such state.

Quote:

If they needed all that for the withdrawal why didn't they also need it and already have it for the deposit?



My guess is player convenience as providing such information might be a deterrent to playing to begin with.

Also, make no mistake that they are taking a risk NOT getting that information upfront given that a player could lose his/her funds and then initiate a chargeback request with the CC company, thereby free rolling the casino. If I had an online casino, I would definitely want that authorization form before I let you play.

Again, US Casinos, such as in New Jersey, do the same thing to some extent:

https://us.888casino.com/banking/cashout/how-to-withdraw/

Quote:

Withdrawals requested within the same 24 hour period, via the same payment method, may be combined as one payment.

Your authorization or some documentation, is required to process your withdrawal requests, and we may ask that you sign a list of your previous deposits with us.

888casino reserves the right to delay and/or stop the processing of withdrawal requests until final approval has been received for any outstanding deposit transactions.

Please see 888casino Withdrawal Policy.

Bonuses may be withdrawn only after all Bonus Policy requirements have been satisfied.

There are no fees for any of our withdrawal services.



Other than the fact that 888 has no fees, (mainly because it is all within the US) the procedure of obtaining additional documentation and the equivalent of additional authorization forms is the same. If they don't get it, they reserve the right not to pay.

888 is licensed by the State of New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement to operate in New Jersey.

Quote:

If he had lost and had not provided all that documentation in his deposit would they have questioned the validity of his original deposit and re-processed it demanding more documents or they could not consider the validity of his loss and his deposit would be voided?



I'm not following your question, can you please rephrase? You don't provide that stuff if you lose, only for a withdrawal. Like I said, the casino does take a risk of getting freerolled here because a player could still request a chargeback and the casino wouldn't have a ton of documentation backing up thew validity of the deposit.

Quote:

They need a utility bill? Come on. Really.



Standard, but I agree with you on this one. I guess it is for additional address verification. IN the casino's defense, it was stated upfront that would be needed. I do agree with you, though, that a utility bill shouldn't be necessary.

Quote:

And also this: • “If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”
Why would they refund anything to him. If his claim for his winnings requires so much additional verification why would his claim for his deposit not require a lot more too. Gee whiz. Could it be because they would like to pocket his winnings?



Everything that he says he is being asked to provide was stated upfront and could be found prior to making a deposit or even creating an account. I don't know why they would refund him, I wouldn't.

Quote:

And also this: " First, the player is hit by an outrageous FEE: US$ 60."

So very obvious that they suck up deposits easily but its like pulling teeth to get your win out of there.

It's not in any way equal in reputability to most brick and mortar casinos.



The fee was stated pretty clearly on the cashier page before the deposit was made and even before an account needed to be created.

They're being perfectly responsible, everything that they are requesting was stated upfront before the account was even created, much less a deposit made.

As far as the fee itself, the casino is likely just passing on some or all of whatever it costs them to do the transaction. That's why BTC is free, doesn't cost the casino anything. If you've ever accepted an International deposit, you would know that most, if not all, U.S. banks charge for that. They charge you to transfer money overseas. There are costs associated with all of this stuff.
Last edited by: Mission146 on Mar 8, 2018
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
beachbumbabs
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 7:35:27 AM permalink
The utility bill is a safeguard against identity theft. There have been many cases of CC/ID theft where the thief changes the address for check mailing. The utility bill helps prove the address and ID provided to the casino are legit.

It might not be necessary in every transaction, but it stops some thieves, especially online /dark Web CC listings.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 7:44:47 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

The utility bill is a safeguard against identity theft. There have been many cases of CC/ID theft where the thief changes the address for check mailing. The utility bill helps prove the address and ID provided to the casino are legit.

It might not be necessary in every transaction, but it stops some thieves, especially online /dark Web CC listings.



Good call, nicely done! I didn't think of that. Most people keep both their ID and CC in a wallet, so that makes total sense.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
lilredrooster
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March 8th, 2018 at 8:48:00 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146



The signed authorization form is so that they don’t pay you out only for you to later dispute the charges with your CC after you have cashed the check, effectively free-rolling them and getting your deposit, winnings and refunded the amount you deposited via chargeback reversal.



Except he says they said this:

“If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”

He could have done what you suggested in this situation too; refusing to pay the c.c. card and getting his deposit back and profiting from this.

But they didn't fear he would do that in this situation. Why?

It looks like they were angling to pocket his winnings.
Please don't feed the trolls
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 9:33:56 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

Except he says they said this:

“If you feel strongly about not providing your documents, we will simply void your winnings and refund you your money if you want.”

He could have done what you suggested in this situation too; refusing to pay the c.c. card and getting his deposit back and profiting from this.

But they didn't fear he would do that in this situation. Why?

It looks like they were angling to pocket his winnings.



1.) More than anything, I go back to the fact that he could have easily and readily known the documents would need to be provided for a withdrawal prior to making a deposit or even creating an account to begin with.

2.) They would refund the deposit by way of reversing the credit card transaction. Ergo, the money would go back onto the credit card. That's what a refund is, it's different than a withdrawal. He would not be able to initiate a chargeback on something that had already been refunded. Even if he did, he would lose, because the entity that did the credit card transaction could show it had already been refunded. People tried this at the hotel I managed from time to time. They'd gripe about one thing or another, get a refund from the franchisor and then attempt to do a chargeback anyway.

3.) If he wants his winnings, he just needs to provide the documents that he could have known ahead of time he would need to provide. They're not trying to pocket anything, I think the casino actually would quite like to pay him.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
terapined
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March 8th, 2018 at 9:41:13 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Meanwhile, savvy players were absolutely crushing the online casinos during the early 2000's.

I highly regret not spending more time and investing more money playing online casinos back then(and even to some degree now).


I've heard these stories
I find them hard to believe
Is there any actual proof that this happened?
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 9:47:45 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

I've heard these stories
I find them hard to believe
Is there any actual proof that this happened?



Aside from the very owner of this site amassing a large fortune that way?

The thing was the playthrough requirements were incredibly liberal then, because many players would play until it was all gone anyway, but primarily because the casinos didn't pay attention to or realize the mathematical advantage that the players were getting. I believe Wizard has also mentioned making substantial bank with online gambling in the early days, but I'm not 100% sure.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Wizard
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:00:54 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The thing was the playthrough requirements were incredibly liberal then, because many players would play until it was all gone anyway, but primarily because the casinos didn't pay attention to or realize the mathematical advantage that the players were getting. I believe Wizard has also mentioned making substantial bank with online gambling in the early days, but I'm not 100% sure.



Yes, the late 90s and early 00s were the golden era of bonus hunting. I wish I had been more aggressive with it but back then I had my doubts about ever getting my money back out. My favorite bonus was the Golden Palace. 20% on monthly deposits up to 10,000 dollars. The wagering requirement was 1x the bonus and they had a blackjack game with 0.1% house edge. So you get 2,000 every month and only give them back 2.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:03:33 AM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

You always lose even when you win. There are two methods the online bandits make sure you always LOSE.

1) SIGN UP BONUS
Some of them bandits offer outrageous bonuses! I saw bonuses of 5000 Euros! ONE MUST AVOID THE BONUSES AT ALL COSTS! I knew about that extortion scheme and I declined the bonus. One must read carefully before accepting the signup bonus:

“Prior to accepting any bonus, you will be notified of the total Rollover Point amount that is tied to each bonus. This Rollover Point amount needs to be met in full prior to being able to request a withdrawal.”

Accepting the signup bonus is like accepting your own imprisonment. You are tied to your online account until you lose your money entirely. If you win, you can’t withdraw your money that includes the bonus. You must bet again and again and again. If you want to claim the bonus you must bet, on average, 10 times your initial deposit. Chances are big the vast majority of players will lose all their money after, say, 5 bets. Lose all your money means you also lost your signup “bonus”.

2) WITHDRAWAL
This is the most outrageous tactic applied by the online bandits. I put an online casino to the test. I placed a bet in the last Super Bowl. I had a high level of confidence I’d win by betting on Philadelphia Eagles +5. I did win easily as I posted my bet at least two days before the game.

Now, I wanted to withdraw all the money in my account.
First, the player is hit by an outrageous FEE: US$ 60. The worst is still to come. Here is what the online criminal casino I dealt with email me after my withdrawal request:

“Thank you for contacting GTbets.eu.
• We would like to inform you that in order to receive a payout, should you have deposited by credit, prepaid or debit card, you will be required to fill out our Credit Card Authorization Form verifying the original charges before any payments can be processed.
• We need from you:
• Front & Back copy of the credit card ending – ****
• Front & Back copy of your ID
• Signed authorization form ( Contact us for the electronic form)
• Recent utility bill ( not older than 3 months)”


They already verified my ID and also security requirements when I opened my account. Now, they go dangerously further, including disclosing sensitive information. Revealing credit card and other personal data can lead and usually leads to DISASTER: ID theft, banking breaches, etc. But the criminals claim: “… the security procedures are given to you in the email so you can protect yourself from Identity theft as well.”

Those “requirements” are only elements of a scheme to make it virtually impossible to withdraw your own money. Forget about bonus and all that garbage!

I warned about the criminal online gambling outlets in the early 2000s. The online bandits are more sophisticated than ever — and more criminal than ever!

There have been strong warnings all over the Internet:

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 844. html
“Online, Internet Casinos Survive Only by Cheating the Gamblers.”

saliu. com/ bbs/ messages/ 850. html
“Reports of Cheating in Online, Internet Gambling.”

But, hey, all gambling has always been the realm of organized crime. You go to Las Vegas, enter a casino, and gamble with the hope of winning. No one is warned at the entrance “You are not allowed to win!” It happens that you win, the casino management starts panicking; they fear you are a “trained winner”. You might as well end up in what they call “back room”. They might as well beat the lights out of you…



NO doubt one can easily spot the representatives of online casinos in this thread. To be fair, I do accept they have a right to present their position. Mission146, beachbumbabs, AxelWolf are undoubtedly in this category.

One of my points is:

The online casinos apply schemes to make withdrawing money extremely hard, even impossible.

• First off, they try very hard to HIDE sensitive information at sign-up; such pieces of data would deter registration (e.g. “utility bill necessary for withdrawal”).
• Online-casino representatives here stress the legitimacy of photocopying and photoshopping (as in PhotoShop) very sensitive documents. In truth, it is not for “the security of the gambler” — emailing such documents, especially to a bunch of bandits, endangers the user’s security.

• There is security verification at sign-up. It is the SAME verified gambler who makes a withdrawal. Why do it again, and again, and again?
And why make the verification a whole lot harder and more dangerous when requesting a withdrawal? To burden the user, to make that hard that many gamblers just give up — that’s why.
• Not to mention that the documents emailed, even if a gullible gambler accepts all those terrible procedures, are almost never accepted in the first try. There is something wrong virtually always. “DO IT AGAIN, SUCKER,” the online criminals yell!
• It is obvious that all FAKE security requirements enforced by the online bandits are SMOKE SCREENS. They are definitely meant to DISCOURAGE gamblers from withdrawing money from their accounts.

• Opening an online gambling accounts is meant to DONATE money to the online criminalos. All that money deposited is meant to drain in the bank accounts of the online bandits.
• And, oh, those stories of “gamblers crushing the online casinos” are the stinkiest fabricated stories. As for the “reviews of online casinos”: they are similar to the fake reviews on Amazon.

As MrV put it so eloquently:

“Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins.
'Nuf said.”

No wonder the U.S. government opposes online gambling. It is extremely hard to keep FRAUD from happening, or keeping it under control. As for non-U.S.-based online gambling outlets: They are a huge NO-NO. Most U.S. banks rightly deny payments when trying to deposit to a gambling facility. They are aware of the numerous complaints they would have to deal with…
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:42:33 AM permalink
Weezer, would you mind arguing with actual facts from time to time?

If you don't want to play online, don't play online. A casino acting according to the stated Terms & Conditions, available for perusal prior to even signing up, is hardly, "Criminal," as the Thread Title implies.

I also don't work for any online casinos. If a bonus is profitable and I analyze it, I say that it is profitable and why. If it is not profitable, I mathematically detail why the ways that I would play it do not yield an expected profit. I have even described many bonuses from casinos we advertise as being, "Worse than just making a deposit without taking a bonus." So, if you could refrain from impugning my integrity by referring to me as a, "Representative of online casinos," that would be appreciated. This site advertises online casinos, I write stuff for this site, but I do not represent the interests of any online casino or casinos.

I think many online casinos would prefer had Axel never played there, so calling him a, "Representative," is laughable.

The only arguments I have made against the OP's position have consisted of readily verifiable facts.

Oh, you are the OP. Okay, you could have read what the casino would want for a withdrawal on the Cashier page prior to making your deposit or even signing up for the casino account. If you didn't do that, it's entirely on you that you find yourself surprised now.

One of us has a vendetta, here, but I don't think it's me.

Quote: Weezer

One of my points is:

The online casinos apply schemes to make withdrawing money extremely hard, even impossible.

• First off, they try very hard to HIDE sensitive information at sign-up; such pieces of data would deter registration (e.g. “utility bill necessary for withdrawal”).
• Online-casino representatives here stress the legitimacy of photocopying and photoshopping (as in PhotoShop) very sensitive documents. In truth, it is not for “the security of the gambler” — emailing such documents, especially to a bunch of bandits, endangers the user’s security.
• There is security verification at sign-up. It is the SAME verified gambler who makes a withdrawal. Why do it again, and again, and again?
And why make the verification a whole lot harder and more dangerous when requesting a withdrawal? To burden the user, to make that hard that many gamblers just give up — that’s why.
• Not to mention that the documents emailed, even if a gullible gambler accepts all those terrible procedures, are almost never accepted in the first try. There is something wrong virtually always. “DO IT AGAIN, SUCKER,” the online criminals yell!
• It is obvious that all FAKE security requirements enforced by the online bandits are SMOKE SCREENS. They are definitely meant to DISCOURAGE gamblers from withdrawing money from their accounts.



1.) What is, "Extremely hard," or, "Impossible," about providing the requested documents? If you found the task so onerous, one would think you would have looked into the procedure prior to making a deposit...by clicking the, "Cashier," page, calling or using the Live Chat and they would have told you what would be needed. Since that is, "Extremely hard," or, "Impossible," for you to do, one would think you would have opted not to make a deposit.

2.) You agreed to all of the Terms and Conditions upon creating your account.

3.) They didn't hide anything about the utility bill, it's right on the Cashier page that you can access prior to making a deposit or even creating an account.

4.) Anything on the documents that you would wish not to share, simply request to be allowed to cover that up. The vast majority of the information on those documents is information that you've already given them...assuming you played with your own name and proper information, of course.

5.) You could have easily known what would be required for a withdrawal prior to creating an account or making a deposit.

6.) Are they? Have you tried to E-Mail them, yet? I usually take a picture of the documents with my phone and then create a file with the picture. I think only once have I ever been asked to resend anything because they said the front of my DL was blurry.

7.) I have stated the actual reasons why online casinos have those requirements...the ones they told you about before you made a deposit. So sorry if you don't like them.

Quote:

• Opening an online gambling accounts is meant to DONATE money to the online criminalos. All that money deposited is meant to drain in the bank accounts of the online bandits.
• And, oh, those stories of “gamblers crushing the online casinos” are the stinkiest fabricated stories. As for the “reviews of online casinos”: they are similar to the fake reviews on Amazon.



1.) Proof?

2.) Proof?

Quote:

No wonder the U.S. government opposes online gambling. It is extremely hard to keep FRAUD from happening, or keeping it under control. As for non-U.S.-based online gambling outlets: They are a huge NO-NO. Most U.S. banks rightly deny payments when trying to deposit to a gambling facility. They are aware of the numerous complaints they would have to deal with…



1.) Yeah, the U.S. Government opposes it so fervently that the states are allowed to license such operations, if they wish. Many of these operations, such as 888 Casino in New Jersey, also operate outside of the State of New Jersey.

2.) It is hard to keep fraud from happening, which is why the documentation is needed.

3.) The U.S. banks deny payments because, per the UIGEA, they are not allowed to knowingly transact with overseas online casinos. That doesn't make it illegal for a player to play or casinos outside of the United States to offer their services. It has nothing to do with the banks receiving complaints.

----

Again, feel free to speak using facts at any time it might be convenient for you. If you continue to come back with mouth-running, conjecture, speculation and non-facts, expect it to be challenged. As you pointed out, though, you do have a right to speak.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
OnceDear
OnceDear
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March 8th, 2018 at 10:49:38 AM permalink
MrV noted that "Online casinos: home of degenerate gamblers, fools, and shut ins."

I gamble almost exclusively online in the UK and while I don't feel at all offended by MrV, I think I'd like to put in a few words. Degenerate: Tick. Gambler: Tick. Fool, maybe.

Over the last half decade, I've noted the growth in mainstream gambling names building an online presence. They now have prime-time TV ads and are accepted here as respectable and acceptable places of adult entertainment. Unlike the USA, we have no gambling taxes to worry about and no practical restrictions on money transfers between casino and player. Typically, I credit my online casino by debit card or paypal and if I choose to withdraw funds, that is done the same way without fees, occasionally with a 3 day or so 'cooling down' period.'

Bonus terms used to be stupidly exploitable by APs. Guess what happened: They got exploited and the online gaffs wised up. Some went too far. Generally, the bonuses available from good online gaffs are revenue neutral and are no more than regular 'marketing spend'

By comparison, your US friendly online gaffs are forced to jump through hoops with things like Canadian cheques, bitcoin, or whatever. It's hardly surprising that they have to pass on some costs.
I've encountered SOME online casinos that are 'white label' gaffs. Those use a shared platform and seem to be owned by small outfits which apply their own silly tricks. I've also encountered gaffs that I wouldn't touch with YOUR barge-pole: Gaffs that are based in some god-forsaken South Pacific island, registered in some other country that I've barely heard of and 'certified' by some guy in Canada with a photocopy converted to pdf.

Simply put. Caveat emptor. Read trusted reviews, not the top 5 google results. Read the bonus terms and conditions, then read them again. And trust the online gaffs exactly as far as you can throw them - no further.

But they are not all crooks. Sort the wheat from the chaff - do due diligence. Then partake, or don't partake.

Maybe partake and exploit. It's still possible.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 11:40:24 AM permalink
@Mission146

What we both have in common: Long posts to cover all [possible] points we see valid or invalid.

In my opinion: your long and convoluted reply is nothing more than a SMOKESCREEN.
You dutifully smokescreen the INTENT of the online casinos to keep all deposited money in the accounts until everything is lost by gambling.

In another thread here, you replied to me between these lines:

“Nobody put a gun to your head [to force you to gamble online].”

That tells a lot about personality (possibly your job too).
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 11:46:51 AM permalink
@OnceDear

“I credit my online casino by debit card or paypal and if I choose to withdraw funds, that is done the same way without fees, occasionally with a 3 day or so 'cooling down' period.'”

Are you out of this world, dear Brit, or “in some god-forsaken South Pacific island” discovered by Brits before Brexit?

The conditions you describe are better by orders of magnitude than what brick-and-mortar Las Mafia Vegas offer. I would even consider moving to Britain, if not for that Brexit.

I betcha you losing money in your online gambling endeavours. Supposed you win from time to time? Do your favorite Brexit casinos invoke the “terms and conditions”:

"In the event that Las Vegas USA Casino believes a User is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by Las Vegas USA Casino then Las Vegas USA Casino may, in its absolute discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from a User any bonus or other promotion, or rescind any policy in respect of that User, either temporarily or permanently. "

• "This Agreement, the interpretation and execution thereof, and the relationship between the parties, shall be governed by, and construed in accordance with, the laws of the United Kingdom."


Yet you have to file in some South Pacific island:

"Any claim or dispute arising either directly or indirectly out of this Agreement, shall be brought before the competent court of the country of Panama which court shall have exclusive jurisdiction"

I wonder what would happen should you win BIG all of a sudden?!

“Sort the wheat from the chaff - do due diligence.”

What if there ain’t wheat at all? Most of what you read on the subject describes CHAFF. Methinks your positive outlook is related to your winning insignificantly (and therefore losing quite a bit).

They call it freedom of speech (opinions, in this case).
WatchMeWin
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March 8th, 2018 at 12:20:45 PM permalink
Rollover bonuses are no uncommon with online casinos. You should understand the terms before taking such an offer. I brokered a celebrity endorsement with an online casino years ago. They offered my bonus money in an account as part of the fee. They said the funds would have to be rolled over 5x before there would be a payout. Success all around. Payouts were much easier in early 2000s. Now days, very difficult. Small increments.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
OnceDear
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March 8th, 2018 at 12:32:22 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

@OnceDear
Are you out of this world, dear Brit, or “in some god-forsaken South Pacific island” discovered by Brits before Brexit?

The conditions you describe are better by orders of magnitude than what brick-and-mortar Las Mafia Vegas offer. I would even consider moving to Britain, if not for that Brexit.

The conditions I have day to day dealing with online casinos are an open book. Read my blog here. I won, I lost some of what I won, I won a lot more, I lost a lot more, I won a bit more still I'm currently still ahead in the game, though I play lower stakes because it's just paid for entertainment. You can find my record of wins and losses posted in my blog and summarised here http://oncedear.com/Bankroll171116.jpg

Quote:

Do your favorite Brexit casinos invoke the “terms and conditions”:

Yes actually. I was a victim of vicious invocation of the catchall terms and conditions with my previous preferred online casino of choice. So, yes, even with my favourite mainstream online Gaff, there were issues. However, I still departed that relationship significantly in profit.
Quote:

I wonder what would happen should you win BIG all of a sudden?!

Big is relative. I was paid out when I won £6k from 888 from a 188 Sign up bonus. Wagering requirements were harsh, but I prevailed. They asked for a photo of my passport and paid out within a week.
I won >£800 while playing a loss rebate bonus last week. Won a further few hundred. Transferred it all to my PayPal account and it arrived with me within 48 hours. If your gaff is less good by orders of magnitude, then change something or suck it up
Quote:

What if there ain’t wheat at all? Most of what you read on the subject describes CHAFF. Methinks your positive outlook is related to your winning insignificantly (and therefore losing quite a bit).

Maybe when I have a win of >£10,000 and get refused payment, I'll side with you. So far, I just keep cashing out from my account when the balance passes up though about £750. I credit money to the casino in small amounts when I bust out. Indeed, that is because I know they might one day stiff me. It just seems a reasonable precaution.
Quote:

They call it freedom of speech (opinions, in this case).

I'm all for it. But if "Most of what you read on the subject describes CHAFF", then maybe some of us Brit's need to counter those downbeat comments with more upbeat thruths.
In the UK we don't have to declare our winning to the tax authorities either. HMRC doesn't want to know. So maybe you might want to move here permanently, but I suspect you might have to give up US citizenship to escape the IRS.
Check out my blog for the full story from my perspective. https://wizardofvegas.com/member/oncedear/blog/#post1281

And by the way, I'm not employed by the gaming industry, nor indeed by anyone. I doubt Mission is either.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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March 8th, 2018 at 12:44:33 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

NO doubt one can easily spot the representatives of online casinos in this thread. To be fair, I do accept they have a right to present their position. Mission146, beachbumbabs, AxelWolf are undoubtedly in this category.


ROFLMAO
I don't know what Mission does for a living, but a tiny bit of research here would reveal that Babs is or was in 'Air Traffic Control, and is just a volunteer moderator here. I've never noticed her ever even commenting on experiences with online casinos. Axel is any casinos strongest adversary. He makes his living beating the casinos up. If he could beat up an online gaff with some advantage play, he would do so. That's the extent to which he would take money off an online casino. Hardly qualifies him as representing them. He's savvy too and AIUI, he trusts them less than I do.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
DrawingDead
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March 8th, 2018 at 1:25:44 PM permalink
Mmmmkay, so now everyone here with an ounce of everyday commonsense judgment knows what the OP is up to, without any need to resort to a label that isn't allowed under the rules here...
Quote: weezrDASvegas


...than what brick-and-mortar Las Mafia Vegas offer...

But. Some of the replies are more egregious, given where they come from, and should be corrected here. I don't give enough of a flying fork about this forum to engage in any back forth at all, so I won't, but just to raise a red flag & provoke anyone stumbling across this to investigate further, and be a bit more diligent than impulsive gambling web--forum denizens.

The assertion that those withdrawal requirements would be anything like normal, outside of the unique world of the little Bannannastan based offshore enterprises that choose to operate in the US outside of the law & regulatory requirements (and are therefore banned by reciprocal agreement in most other countries) is complete utter nonsense.

This is what is actually required to cash out from the licensed legitimate online sites which do not operate illegally in the United States:

A) In person at a brick and mortar location within the State where where they are licensed to operate, as follows: 1. show up; 2. show a license or other gov't issued picture ID at the cashier window; 3. sign a withdrawal slip; and receive IMMEDIATE payment in cash, as REQUIRED BY GAMING REGULATORS. In Nevada this is how all transactions involving any type of online betting accounts normally occur (outside of some special circumstances) and this is also readily available for all legal online gambling accounts in the US (definitely including NJ - since that State's legal gambling was specifically alleged to require jumping through the same ludicrous transparently shady hoops).

B) Elsewhere ( again notably NJ) as an alternative choice in addition to in-person cash withdrawal: In order to be paid either by mail in the form of a check made out to the account owner and sent to their address of record in the account, or else by an electronic "ACH" transfer (the Automated Clearing House network used by all legitimate financial institutions) to the bank account you chose to link to your online account with the nine digit ABA routing number + account number, or other of several other options of your choice, requires the following procedure: 1. log into your account using your online account ID & password, 2. type in the amount; 3. select your preferred method of payment; 4. and click. Period. Done.

NO licensed gambling site in the US requires anything like the transparently ridiculous bullspit described in the OP, nor will they. Not only because almost nobody would be stupid enough to do business with them, but more importantly because they can't. To do so would mean fines, license suspensions, and potentially license revocations. I've got multiple online betting account from which I've withdrawn funds many times, and I've read the gaming regs which are readily available online from the the relevant State licensing authorities (or simply by ASKING for chrissakes) including NJ DGE (New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement) & the NGCB (Nevada Gaming Control Board).

Given the inevitable potential for conflicts of interest & unavoidable uncertainty about the integrity of information that naturally arises due to the nature of the ownership of this site, I think the people publicly associated with this forum would be wise to avoid the usual temptation around here to make up crap, to avoid earning a really unsavory reputation for all connected with it.
Last edited by: DrawingDead on Mar 8, 2018
Suck dope, watch TV, make up stuff, be somebody on the internet.
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 1:44:30 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas



“Nobody put a gun to your head [to force you to gamble online].”

That tells a lot about personality (possibly your job too).



Yeah, and yet it seems that you continue to gamble online, despite the shortfalls you perceive. Should that tell me something about your personality?

As I've already explained, my job has nothing to do with acting on behalf of online casinos in any way whatsoever. The only time I've ever been paid by an online casino is when I have won money playing at one.

In the meantime, you describe an online casino holding you to its readily known Terms and Conditions, that you also agreed to, as a, "Criminal," enterprise.

The difference between you and I has nothing to do with personality. It has to do with one set of statements being outrageous and utterly full of crap and the other set of statements not falling under that description.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 1:48:35 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas



They call it freedom of speech (opinions, in this case).



How about freedom of facts? All of the stuff that you complain about is on the Cashier page and can be known prior to depositing or creating an account. FACT.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
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March 8th, 2018 at 1:57:00 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I've heard these stories
I find them hard to believe
Is there any actual proof that this happened?

What kinda proof do you want? I know I did well online, but I was way more cautious than I needed to be, not to mention, I had other AP obligations and plays in real casinos. None of my partners were interested so I had to do it whenever I had downtime. You can't be everywhere and do everything, at least not to its full potential. My GF would run bonuses, however, she was even more cautious than I, especially when it came to wagering, she wouldn't bet more than a few bucks at a time running the WR's.

At the time, I assumed most of the online casinos were just going to rip you off, so I was spending a significant amount of time searching through all the blacklists for rouge casinos. If a casino happened to be on a rogue list I avoided it, I didn't take too much time finding out the real reasons why. As it turns out, most online casinos were on a rouge list for one reason or another. I'm also convinced some afilliates and or casinos groups would automatically add their competitors to the rouge lists.
Once I realized this, I started to ramp it up and take more risks, unfortunately, they stopped taking Neteller at some point and that tossed a wrench into the works. And again, I had other obligations and couldn't spend the time I needed too. At some point, after things started to change drastically with the big waging requirements, I started comparing notes with people who I believe, to be honest. Their numbers were mindboggling. It made sense as to why I didn't see them in the casinos on plays like I usually would.


I was doing very well at Bovada untill they changed their rules regarding their WR makeup and a few other things(that was a very sad day).
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:03:19 PM permalink
Mission146 et al.:

You and others rebutted my point that the INTENT of the online casinos has an evil purpose. You rebutted me so strongly that I labeled you casino representatives. I got no problem with that and I got no problem with your job.

The Law always takes INTENT into account. Especially in trials by jury, INTENT can be a crucial element. Sometimes, INTENT is the determining factor in a trial.

There have been plenty of complaints leveled at businesses that make paying easy but the reverse action much harder. For example, people take TV ads at their face value. “Get a free bottle of that.”

The fine print is unreadable or all intents and purposes. An honest person orders with a credit card. The entire process is very easy, by phone or, especially, online. The catch is, the buyer’s credit card is charged automatically every month. Unless, the buyer decides to cancel within the first month.

Here is the worst catch: The cancellation may be made by phone only. “It’s in the fine print,” the vendor claims. Let’s suppose, by absurd, that everybody can read the fine print entirely. But the cancellation process is so hard that many customers already lost more than a month trying to stop the automatic monthly payment. The unassuming buyer would hear continuously: “Please hold on! You are currently caller number 77…”

The INTENT of the vendor is crystal-clear. They make it very hard to return products, cancel automatic credit-card charges, etc. Why don’t offer the ONLINE cancelation procedure, which is easier and much, much faster? Why do the online casinos require all those documents when customers want to withdraw their own money? The sign-up was much easier, less restrictive — even if one has to go thru a lot of fine print!

The law pays, as it were, closer attention to INTENT given the increased number of complaints. Such business procedures may be treated as DECEPTIVE BUSINESS PRACTICES.
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:12:49 PM permalink
OnceDear

No offence, mate. I take all your post as BRAGGING. You win so easily, a lot like in that 21 movie. Even if you bet only on sports, you win too easily and that’s way you cash out too easily. As for blog, methinks of it as BRAG. That’s my opinion from this side of the Puond… er, Pond…
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:21:17 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas



You and others rebutted my point that the INTENT of the online casinos has an evil purpose. You rebutted me so strongly that I labeled you casino representatives. I got no problem with that and I got no problem with your job.



This is the last time I am going to tell you that nobody whom you referenced is an online casino representative. If you persist in calling anyone other than myself (because I don't ban for statements made against me) an online casino representative, then I will proceed to ban you for Trolling.

You have the right to speak your opinions as it relates online casinos, you have no right to insinuate or directly state that anyone here is in league with any casinos in any fashion other than those that actually exist.

I rebutted you strongly not because I am an online casino representative, but because the substance of your post, make no mistake, is a pile of garbage. I also rebutted you strongly because you make it sound like you got hoodwinked by the casinos when you could have come to know the very things you complain of, very easily, prior to ever having created an account.

Again, make no mistake, if you feel unfairly put upon now to supply the documents that they told you would need to be supplied in order to collect your winnings, then those feelings are 100% your fault. If you had a problem with providing this documentation and had read the cashier page, then one would think you would have chosen not to deposit.

Quote:

The Law always takes INTENT into account. Especially in trials by jury, INTENT can be a crucial element. Sometimes, INTENT is the determining factor in a trial.



Yeah, and your INTENT is to trash a seemingly reputable online casino for holding you to the Terms and Conditions that you agreed to and were readily available to you prior to creating an account.

Quote:

There have been plenty of complaints leveled at businesses that make paying easy but the reverse action much harder. For example, people take TV ads at their face value. “Get a free bottle of that.”

The fine print is unreadable or all intents and purposes. An honest person orders with a credit card. The entire process is very easy, by phone or, especially, online. The catch is, the buyer’s credit card is charged automatically every month. Unless, the buyer decides to cancel within the first month.



Generally speaking, there is a disclosure that has to be read for phone orders (and also appears in nearly impossible small type on the bottom of the screen) that would need to be read. Further, if one goes to the website, any disclosures would also appear there.

Two types of people in the world: Those who do their homework and those who don't.

Any recurring charges would require either a verbal or electronic authorization which would then require the vendor to instruct the customer as to same recurring charges. If that doesn't happen, the vendor may well be acting in contravention of FTC and/or FCC guidelines. That has certainly happened in the past and those companies have been fined and/or made to issue full refunds as a result.

Again, what you're talking about is LITERALLY THE FIRST THING SAID ON THE CASHIER PAGE OF THE WEBSITE. No fine print there.

Quote:

Why do the online casinos require all those documents when customers want to withdraw their own money? The sign-up was much easier, less restrictive — even if one has to go thru a lot of fine print!

The law pays, as it were, closer attention to INTENT given the increased number of complaints. Such business procedures may be treated as DECEPTIVE BUSINESS PRACTICES.



There was no fine print for what you're complaining of, it's the first thing the Cashier page says. You agreed to provide those documents when you agreed to the Terms & Conditions. Myself and others have already answered why they want those documents.

It would be deceptive had they not made it known to you, which is the first thing I looked at. Had it either not been in the full T&C's, or on the Cashier page, I would have agreed with you 100%, called them out on it and perhaps written an article blasting them.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Mission146
Mission146
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OnceDear
March 8th, 2018 at 2:23:24 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

OnceDear

No offence, mate. I take all your post as BRAGGING. You win so easily, a lot like in that 21 movie. Even if you bet only on sports, you win too easily and that’s way you cash out too easily. As for blog, methinks of it as BRAG. That’s my opinion from this side of the Puond… er, Pond…



You directly accused him of losing money twice in your post prior to that, how do you want him to respond?

I'm quickly losing my patience with you and you're clearly Trolling, consider this your last Warning prior to a ban.

QFP:

Quote: weezrDASvegas



I betcha you losing money in your online gambling endeavours. Supposed you win from time to time? Do your favorite Brexit casinos invoke the “terms and conditions”:

What if there ain’t wheat at all? Most of what you read on the subject describes CHAFF. Methinks your positive outlook is related to your winning insignificantly (and therefore losing quite a bit).

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:45:12 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas



NO doubt one can easily spot the representatives of online casinos in this thread. To be fair, I do accept they have a right to present their position. Mission146, beachbumbabs, AxelWolf are undoubtedly in this category.

I take offense to that, its the furthest thing from the truth(however, I am open to offers).

I see the problem here. You seem to do very little research and you just assume certain things. I have a feeling that's exactly what happened when you made your deposit at that casino.

If you care to take the time and search my posts regarding online casinos you will find out that I don't think any online casino is beyond reproach no matter how good their reputation is (some are just better than others). I DO believe faxback forms are more of a stall tactic than anything else(it's very irritating). I do believe many of them add in shady terms and conditions. I DON'T believe their RNG's are always fair.

It's the wild wild west when it comes to online gambling, but if you are a skilled motivated gunfighter you can make money playing online casinos. If you are first-time gun handler you are probably going to shoot yourself in the foot and then you will blame it on the gun.


I dislike it when anyone claims all online casinos should be avoided all the time, they never pay, they always cheat and you can never win. That's total BS.

I also dislike it when people downplay their shenanigans and sweep things under the rug. They should be called out, shamed and blacklisted whenever they pull some BS. Unfortunately, that never seems to happen. They just pass the blame or claim it was a legitimate mistake and then carry on as of it never happened and in many cases, the affiliates do the same. If the affiliates didn't tolerate it, the casinos would go out of business.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:45:51 PM permalink
Quote: DrawingDead

Mmmmkay, so now everyone here with an ounce of everyday commonsense judgment knows what the OP is up to, without any need to resort to a label that isn't allowed under the rules here...
But. Some of the replies are more egregious, given where they come from, and should be corrected here. I don't give enough of a flying fork about this forum to engage in any back forth at all, so I won't, but just to raise a red flag & provoke anyone stumbling across this to investigate further, and be a bit more diligent than impulsive gambling web--forum denizens.

The assertion that those withdrawal requirements would be anything like normal, outside of the unique world of the little Bannannastan based offshore enterprises that choose to operate in the US outside of the law & regulatory requirements (and are therefore banned by reciprocal agreement in most other countries) is complete utter nonsense.

This is what is actually required to cash out from the licensed legitimate online sites which do not operate illegally in the United States:

A) In person at a brick and mortar location within the State where where they are licensed to operate, as follows: 1. show up; 2. show a license or other gov't issued picture ID at the cashier window; 3. sign a withdrawal slip; and receive IMMEDIATE payment in cash, as REQUIRED BY GAMING REGULATORS. In Nevada this is how all transactions involving any type of online betting accounts normally occur (outside of some special circumstances) and this is also readily available for all legal online gambling accounts in the US (definitely including NJ - since that State's legal gambling was specifically alleged to require jumping through the same ludicrous transparently shady hoops).

B) Elsewhere ( again notably NJ) as an alternative choice in addition to in-person cash withdrawal: In order to be paid either by mail in the form of a check made out to the account owner and sent to their address of record in the account, or else by an electronic "ACH" transfer (the Automated Clearing House network used by all legitimate financial institutions) to the bank account you chose to link to your online account with the nine digit ABA routing number + account number, or other of several other options of your choice, requires the following procedure: 1. log into your account using your online account ID & password, 2. type in the amount; 3. select your preferred method of payment; 4. and click. Period. Done.

NO licensed gambling site in the US requires anything like the transparently ridiculous bullspit described in the OP, nor will they. Not only because almost nobody would be stupid enough to do business with them, but more importantly because they can't. To do so would mean fines, license suspensions, and potentially license revocations. I've got multiple online betting account from which I've withdrawn funds many times, and I've read the gaming regs which are readily available online from the the relevant State licensing authorities (or simply by ASKING for chrissakes) including NJ DGE (New Jersey Division of Gaming Enforcement) & the NGCB (Nevada Gaming Control Board).

Given the inevitable potential for conflicts of interest & unavoidable uncertainty about the integrity of information that naturally arises due to the nature of the ownership of this site, I think the people publicly associated with this forum would be wise to avoid the usual temptation around here to make up crap, to avoid earning a really unsavory reputation for all connected with it.



DrawingDead

You must be a representative of the formidable Nevada Gaming Control Board, the legal division.

My Mafia expression in the middle of Las Vegas refers to unacceptable practices by the Nevada casinos. The law that provides refusal of service for any reason is definitely against the U.S. Constitution.

That law is an “umbrella” protecting the casinos for performing despicable acts. Back-rooming — isn’t it kinduva mafia act? C’mon, man! The pretext? Trespassing! In truth, it is winning that triggers back-rooming.

Why doesn’t every Nevada casino post a clearly visible sign that specifies “Winning is not allowed here”? I went too far? Well, then, post this sign at every casino entrance: “You may be asked to leave the premises if winning by standards unacceptable by the management!”

Otherwise, I agree with your points regarding the procedures employed by the online casinos. You too agreed with me that the practices I described here are NOT acceptable in the United States. I described practices common to non-U.S.-based online casinos.

Now, I am still skeptical. You described practices by the U.S.-based online casinos that belong to the ideal realm. Is real-life in accordance with the excellent legal standards you presented? I read in these forums complaints leveled at the 888 casino, for example. Isn’t it a United States based and regulated online casino? An 888 customer complained that the casino refused to pay his winnings on the grounds of martingaling!!! What? So it seems the online gambler is still slave to the whims of the casinos.

Would you put your reputation on the line and recommend U.S.-regulated online casinos to be highly trusted? Thanks in advance.

Should I use another satirical expression — New Mafia Jersey? Here I come, Sopranos…
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 2:54:05 PM permalink
Just for the record, I also said this in direct response to you a couple of months ago:

Quote:

Besides that, you can just play it through and leave whereas online casinos have Terms & Conditions, the most relevant of which are the playthrough requirements. Feel free to read some of my articles. In many cases, you're better off NOT to take a bonus because you can cash out anytime. Sometimes, the playthrough requirements combined with wager restrictions make any possibility aside from losing money almost impossible.



I sure as Hell wouldn't pay me to, "Represent," online casinos if that's the way I'm going to do it. It's true, though, some bonuses have a mathematical expectation of losing the bonus funds AND the deposit (more than, actually) prior to ever completing the WR's. Those bonuses suck and the player would be better off not to take the bonus. I believe I have said that any time I run across any such bonus.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
weezrDASvegas
weezrDASvegas
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 3:00:27 PM permalink
Mission146 & AxelWolf:

I am really sorry if naming you casino employees offended you.

You rebutted me in describing unacceptable practices by online casinos. Another member in the know - DrawingDead – agreed that such acts are unacceptable. Such acts are even punished in the United States. He further presented excellent regulations that U.S.-based online casinos must abide by. I still had some reservation, as methinks the U.S.-based online casinos are too good to be true. But I’ll give it a try. Whats a couple hundred dollars among friends?!

DrawingDead’s post is on page #4, my reply is on page #5 of this red-hot thread.

No offence, fellas! And no hard feelings!

As for those “Terms & Conditions” I can see them on the ads here.
“T&C's apply” Mouse over, the line is highlighted as if a URL, click on it – it goes nowhere!

Read DrawingDead’s post. Even if the T&C are crystal-clear and easily accessible, some practices are absolutely unacceptable. They might as well be punishable if followed by a U.S. regulated online casino.

Tonight or tomorrow (my birthday… thanks!) I am gonna watch “Good Fellas” and “Casino” by the great Martin Scorsese.

Best of luck, fellas!
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 3:14:02 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

Mission146 & AxelWolf:

I am really sorry if naming you casino employees offended you.

You rebutted me in describing unacceptable practices by online casinos. Another member in the know - DrawingDead – agreed that such acts are unacceptable. Such acts are even punished in the United States. He further presented excellent regulations that U.S.-based online casinos must abide by. I still had some reservation, as methinks the U.S.-based online casinos are too good to be true. But I’ll give it a try. Whats a couple hundred dollars among friends?!

DrawingDead’s post is on page #4, my reply is on page #5 of this red-hot thread.

No offence, fellas! And no hard feelings!

As for those “Terms & Conditions” I can see them on the ads here.
“T&C's apply” Mouse over, the line is highlighted as if a URL, click on it – it goes nowhere!

Read DrawingDead’s post. Even the T&C are crystal-clear and easily accessible, some practices are absolutely unacceptable. They might as well be punishable if followed by a U.S. regulated online casino.

Tonight or tomorrow (my birthday… thanks!) I am gonna watch “Good Fellas” and “Casino” by the great Martin Scorsese.

Best of luck, fellas!

Calling one a casino employee around here is like saying someone rides the short bus (just kidding casino employees).

You were basically saying that we were being dishonest because we worked for the online casinos and we were trying to protect them.

It's all good.

Now, what can we do for you? Do you have any real questions or concerns you want to discuss? What's the real issue?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
OnceDear
OnceDear
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 3:38:29 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas

OnceDear

No offence, mate. I take all your post as BRAGGING. You win so easily, a lot like in that 21 movie. Even if you bet only on sports, you win too easily and that’s way you cash out too easily. As for blog, methinks of it as BRAG. That’s my opinion from this side of the Puond… er, Pond…

No offence taken. You made certain statements about my wins and losses, so I replied with some level of evidence. I often offer full evidence to moderators here or selected members, simply because some of my stories are over the top.

Is it bragging to say quite openly that I've won and lost a few thousand? That I play for amusement and generate the odd anecdote? Heck, I even post a chart that shows that I've had massive losing streaks where I turned 18k into 4k. Not much to brag about there. Don't you like that my posts and my blog don't care to report in detail the times I sat with a JD in hand and lost >£1000 in an hour online. Don't you find anything amusing in my posts or blog? Well. rhetorical questions... I don't particularly care about your opinion. Your attitude sucks though.

You ruin your own fairly valid points by trashing the replies that we take the trouble to write. Calling members here representatives of the online casinos shows an incredible lack of research or reading comprehension skills on your part.

I personally wouldn't trust the casino you point to. It does not provide a postal address or business name for the business that you are doing business with. I don't particularly like their terms. but they are what they are. Hardly surprising that their identification requirements are strongly tilted in their favour, when they are in no position to take any problems caused by you to any convenient legal authorities.

So, they probably don't comply with US laws. They don't have to, any more than Vladimir Putin when he goes on holiday to the Black Sea.

Again. No-one forced you to use that casino. It seems obvious you have issues with the way they treated you. Fair enough. Relate your warning to others. But don't downplay your own ignorance of what you were daft enough to sign up to. You turn a reasonable warning into a hatchet job.

Oh. By the way, I was bragging on behalf of the UK tax authorities that stay away from my gambling transactions. But then your post did sort of deride the UK and you did strongly imply that the business practices, the zero fees and Paypal transactions were not truths. Well, matey, That's the way it is. But don't come to live here, it rains a lot and we won't have sympathy for you if you catch the flu. You'd get free medical treatment though :o) Sorry. bragging again.

Incidentally, you misquoted my own post about 888 refusing to pay me because of Martingaling. It was I that simply pointed out the stupid term in their conditions. I understand that Wizard picked up the rule in an article. 888 did refuse to pay me under different circumstances not related to Marty, so I took my bankroll elsewhere.
Last edited by: OnceDear on Mar 8, 2018
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Mission146
Mission146
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March 8th, 2018 at 3:39:53 PM permalink
Quote: weezrDASvegas



I am really sorry if naming you casino employees offended you.

You rebutted me in describing unacceptable practices by online casinos. Another member in the know - DrawingDead – agreed that such acts are unacceptable. Such acts are even punished in the United States. He further presented excellent regulations that U.S.-based online casinos must abide by. I still had some reservation, as methinks the U.S.-based online casinos are too good to be true. But I’ll give it a try. Whats a couple hundred dollars among friends?!



It didn't offend me, the inherent allegation that I, or anyone else, was speaking in the realm of any sort of bias that we would be paid to have offended me.

Here are a few U.S. online casino regulations I mentioned in an earlier post:

Quote:

Withdrawals requested within the same 24 hour period, via the same payment method, may be combined as one payment.

Your authorization or some documentation, is required to process your withdrawal requests, and we may ask that you sign a list of your previous deposits with us.

888casino reserves the right to delay and/or stop the processing of withdrawal requests until final approval has been received for any outstanding deposit transactions.

Please see 888casino Withdrawal Policy.

Bonuses may be withdrawn only after all Bonus Policy requirements have been satisfied.

There are no fees for any of our withdrawal services.



---There you have them saying that some documentation may be needed to process the withdrawal. I don't know what documentation that may be as it is not directly stated there.

---The list of previous deposits to be signed is effectively the same as the authorization form you are being asked to sign, and exists for the same reason.

Again, this is 888Casino New Jersey. I do note that there are no fees, but unfortunately, the way the Federal Government has operated with UIGEA is such that the casinos cannot directly deal with U.S. banks anymore, at least, not if the banks know that is the purpose of the transaction. Therefore, costly third-party payment providers must be used to accept the deposits and making the withdrawals is also a lengthy and costly procedure. Were it not for the UIGEA, all of these things would likely be free because they could just deal with your bank or credit card company (which is technically a bank itself) directly.

Quote:

As for those “Terms & Conditions” I can see them on the ads here.
“T&C's apply” Mouse over, the line is highlighted as if a URL, click on it – it goes nowhere!



Click on the site for the casino in question and then the Terms & Conditions are there. Besides, do we advertise for them?

https://wizardofodds.com/online-gambling/casino-reviews/GTbets/

As you can see, GTBets scores pretty poorly overall across our family of sites and is NOT a Wizard of Odds APPROVED Casino. I wrote the banking section of the review, I believe Wizard wrote the rest, and the banking section states:

Quote:

Depositing and Withdrawing when in the US
GTBets Casino stands for GameTime Casino, not that most players actually care that much considering this casino, operating since 2011, only gets an average LCB User Score of 3 out of 5. That’s a really low score for a casino that has been around that long and should have been able to establish themselves as a fan favorite.

This casino requires a minimum Skrill deposit of $25 or a deposit of $35 using other E-Wallets or Credit Cards. The minimum withdrawal amount is $100, so that comes out to almost 2.5x the deposit amount if one is depositing using a credit card. Bitcoin cashouts pend for 24 hours whereas Wire Transfers may take up to twelve business days, so about two and a half weeks.

The minimum withdrawal of $100 saves this casino from an auto-fail, but it is going to lose half a mark because of the amount of time they say it takes for the player to get the funds. There is really no reason why it should take so long for a wire transfer to be completed.

Players who get really lucky or high rollers may request $5,000 weekly. Thus, a player with a balance of $20,000 would need to make four such requests and the fourth would hit about two and a half weeks after the final request was made. Essentially, such a player would have his or her funds in just under two months, which really isn’t that bad. It should be mentioned that some players have had issues withdrawing funds and with account closures, so take these times with a huge grain of salt.

High Rollers Grade: B
Low Rollers Grade: D-



As you can see, I point out that:

-The minimum withdrawal permitted relative to the minimum deposit is too high.---Also, I don't think a casino should be willing to accept a deposit less than the amount that it is willing to allow to be withdrawn.
-The wire transfer takes too long.
-Some players have had issues withdrawing funds and with account closures.

Which is why I took offense to being labeled a, "Casino Representative." I gave this casino a D- grade for its banking terms for low-mid rollers. They got a B for high-rollers because of the high(ish) maximum withdrawal amounts per withdrawal. $5,000/withdrawal is actually pretty good compared to many others.

Quote:

Read DrawingDead’s post. Even if the T&C are crystal-clear and easily accessible, some practices are absolutely unacceptable. They might as well be punishable if followed by a U.S. regulated online casino.

Tonight or tomorrow (my birthday… thanks!) I am gonna watch “Good Fellas” and “Casino” by the great Martin Scorsese.

Best of luck, fellas!



Well, they aren't a regulated U.S. casino, so there you go. The U.S. doesn't regulate any casinos, because other than PASPA, that's been left up to the states. As you may know, the matter of PASPA is currently before the Supreme Court.

Happy birthday. As Wizard says, "May the odds forever be in your favor."
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 8th, 2018 at 4:25:37 PM permalink
weezrDASvegas do you still have an account at this casino with any money in it?

If so, can you do me a favor and check the duces wild VP progressive. In the free mode, it has the progressive at 1510.16. Usually not a big deal, however, that's with a total of 10 cents bet with a max bet on the 2 cent level. It seems no matter what level you bet it has the same prog amount and a really good meter move.

Just want to know if its the same situation with real money.

FYI there's no way they could offer this and not get crushed, so that would indicate its gaffed.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
beachbumbabs
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Mission146
March 8th, 2018 at 7:36:13 PM permalink
For the record, Weezer, I am not an online casino employee. It's laughable that you would accuse me of such when my only contribution to this thread was to suggest why they wanted a utility bill. They are not alone in doing this.

Public libraries, for example, have been using them for a couple decades to verify your address. Before voting regulations changed to require photo ID, voting registrars would also accept them to determine your eligibility.

It's an effective check on your address being valid and associated with your name. At least in the USA. Perhaps you don't live here, and that's how you have access to all sorts of online casinos. But I don't. It's mostly illegal here, certainly in my state, so I haven't played one for a long time.

Very bizarre accusations from you. I know both Mission and Axel well, and they both told you the truth about who they are and what they do. I notice you apologized to both of them above. Perhaps you would give me the same consideration.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

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