Gaffed software at major Internet casinos
'Playtech rigged slots' to read 'Playtech rigged slots?'
This is the second such thread I started in the last year spiked in this way, following
'Bet365 are cheating on their games', which was changed to read 'Are Bet365 cheating on their games?'
Quote: teliotThought experiment: assume the worst for the original poster -- that this really is a worst case scenario of fraud by "Katie Hale." What if the data that was originally given was produced fraudulently by someone with the access and ability to change the programs and log files? If that is the case, then what? Don't argue admissions or other evidence. Just go there -- what if?
Let's assume that the most probable of these two improbable possibilities ...
1. Someone with the access and ability to change the programs.
2. Someone with the access and ability to change the log files.
... is that someone has changed the log files. I make this assumption because, based on my personal experience, it would be a lot easier to achieve the potential objective by changing the log files. To be accurate, I can't see my way through someone changing lower level code, like the game code or the code that creates the log file (discussed below) and then changing it back (or making it customer-specific).
(There is a third possibility - someone actually changed the data in the database after game play but before the log files were created. Obviously, this would leave tracks in the DB transaction log, but I won't tunnel into this possibility here.)
I looked at the HiLo Gambler text file included as a download link in the thread's first post. It appears to be a tab-separated-values list.
Let's assume that what we see in this file is the output of some "log file process". That is, this "log file process" is implemented through some sort of a user interface in the Admin system. The Admin user enters a Customer ID (or Player ID, or what have you), a game (or Game ID, or similar), a start date, and an end date. They click on a button, and the result is that a text file is created on the Admin user's computer.
The Admin user who creates the report may be in Customer Service (CS), in which case they may send it directly to the customer. Or, the Admin user may be somebody in IT, who sends the file to someone in CS who then sends it to the customer.
For the sake of it, let's assume the second case - someone in IT actually creates the report. That means that there might be 3 people involved (IT, CS and the customer) who can change the resulting log file, at least one of whom is technically competent.
Again, the log file is a tab-separated-values file (with a TXT extension). The original file is created by clicking a button. You can use Excel's "Import External Data" capability to bring the data into a tool with which you can do some "funny business". Someone can create a VBA program within the Excel file to do some sort of random walk through the rows and change a "Payout" column's value from a positive to a negative (or the other way around) based on some If statement involving the "Selection" column.
Once done, save the file as a Text file (Tab delimited) and you're good to go.
So, technically possible. Are there any traces?
I brought 10 rows of the original text file into Word, and then used the Show/Hide formatting marks on the Standard toolbar to check the rows. It appears that each "column" of data (the Bed Id, Bet Status, Stake, etc.) ends with a space THEN a tab.
I then did everything that I mentioned above with Excel. I took the same 10 rows out of my result, and found that two of these "columns" (Bet Id and Stake) did not have spaces followed by a tab.
However, for all we know, the logs that I am looking at have already seen some "funny business" process. And, all of these logs are not Galewind's logs, so I have no idea what tracks to look for, and who might have left them.
Again, all of this is technically possible.
As I said in a CM post, if this situation arose at Pinnacle, we would have been all over this like ugly on ape. I cannot conceive of a question that we might have asked that we would not have answered within 2 days maximum. (It might have taken us as little as 1 hour.)
This CM mess is now going on a month, and there really has been nothing of any value coming from Betfred, Spielo G2, Finsoft or the GRA in all this time. Galewind would have been in a position to publish a novel within the first 3 days - there is nothing we would not have known within those 3 days.
So, is corruption (rather than just incompetence) of some unknown magnitude indicated in this CM mess? IMO, without a doubt. But it's like a corruption scheme run by the Keystone Cops.
Chris
Quote: WizardI can't speak to the subject of libel lawsuits in Germany. However I've twice been warned of a lawsuit by the attorneys of the allegedly injured party. Both times, after much time and expense, they backed down. Two members of this forum has threatened to sue me over allegedly libelous posts by other members, but neither did anything.
So, I don't know what jeopardy Bryan is referring to, but I hope it isn't a threatened lawsuit. Chances are 90% such a threat is a bluff, and assuming it isn't, in this country at least, I'd give his chances of winning in court at least 90%.
Well, he is either being threatened with something that is significant (rubber hose, baseball bat, gun), or he needs to grow a pair.
Chris
You may or may not comply with what they want, but at least everybody involved will know what is going on and they can draw their own conclusions.
Here is what you don't do: Put the threatening party on the accredited list with a ringing endorsement.
Bryan may feel threatened, but not by a lawsuit.
Quote: Canyonero
Bryan may feel threatened, but not by a lawsuit.
Not doubt he’s a team player. If he created all this nonsense on his own, they may have told him to shut up.
You would think a billion dollar industry would be much better advised before releasing or saying what we've seen and heard.
Quote: TheLastCylonI think that that is up in the air. He is most definitely an affiliate, and as such, most, if not all, of the casino links on his site are affiliate links, but as to whether casinos are paying him flat fees to remain prominently listed is unknown.
I suspect that that is true. Casinomeister's "picks" and the "top rated" casinos are all likely additional fees for the listed casinos.
I would like to step in here and remind all parties, that once again an affiliate program is at work. IMHO These should be outlawed, plain and simple. A paid referral service does two things; A.) makes the affiliate cast no blame, and show support for the sponsor at all times, and B.) causes Customer losses to be split amongst the affiliate and the House. /MHO
http://www.beatingbonuses.com/forums/showpost.php?p=84770&postcount=238
Quote: 4ofaKindThis post by "bobsyouruncle" was made this morning at Beating Bonuses...
It would not surprise me at all if that post were truthful.
Quote: 4ofaKindThis post by "bobsyouruncle" was made this morning at Beating Bonuses. Hope someone is looking to confirm this. If this e-mail conversation between Betfred and this poster gets confirmed would add an interesting twist.
I've already asked if they can provide screenshots for inclusion in my report.
Quote: 4ofaKindThis post by "bobsyouruncle" was made this morning at Beating Bonuses. Hope someone is looking to confirm this. If this e-mail conversation between Betfred and this poster gets confirmed would add an interesting twist.
This just gets better and better.
1. A software programmer modified the game code such that a previously "non-rigged game" is now rigged.
2. A software programmer modified the "create a log file" code such that a "non-rigged game" would appear to be rigged (for all customers, or only for this customer).
3. Someone with access to the database modified the data for this customer/game such that the resulting log file showed that the game was rigged.
4. Someone in IT or CS, or the customer, modified the log file after it was created to show that the game was rigged.
As I stated, all of these are technically possible. I assigned option 1 and option 2 to the "highly improbable" category, and did not tunnel into option 3 because once stated there is nowhere to go.
Because I said that all of these options are technically possible, I feel it necessary to emphasize:
1. This is a major problem, receiving MAJOR exposure. One must assume that all technical resources that are involved and available have been brought to bear in addressing it.
2. All 4 of the items listed above would leave significant traces, in source code control systems, file date/time/source modification records, database transaction records, and so forth.
3. As I said before, there is not a conceivable scenario that might have occurred that Galewind would not have thoroughly investigated.
4. And finally, all of this investigative work would have taken Galewind as little as 10 minutes (re-run the logs, bring them into Word, and use Word's "Compare Side by Side" tool) to as long as 2 days. (I'm thinking here about all of the work required to analyze the database transaction logs. Now that would be the definition of "shit work".)
At the end of all of that, if we had found a reason for fraud we would have published this reason. Obviously, some level of tact (some might call it "spin") might have been applied to the published document if, for instance, a database admin had indeed modified the game play records for this player. (That would be a little embarrassing.)
I do not say all of this to indicate that Galewind is God's gift to online casino administration systems. Exactly the opposite. I fully expect that any competent casino administration system/personnel can do exactly the same thing in the same amount of time. I repeatedly mention Galewind to emphasize that I know what the hell I'm talking about here.
I said to the Betfred rep in a CM post 7 days after the OP that I assumed that the answer to all questions was already available. (I did not say, because I considered it rude and inflammatory, that the only reason that these answers have not yet been provided is because they were not desirable answers.)
I still believe this to be true - everything about this is already known.
Given that Betfred has been dragging their heels here, I would then expect that after 7 days someone at the GRA with balls, brains and knowledge would have brought all involved parties into a conference room and said: "OK, we're not leaving here until the truth is detailed on the whiteboard to my left, and our response is detailed on the whiteboard to my right." Clearly, the GRA has done nothing of the sort.
I would not compare this to the AGCC's Full Tilt Poker fiasco. IMO, that incident was more of a "who's on first" mess. I'd compare this to Kahnawake's UB/AP corruption fiasco.
Chris
I'm not sure why this is even being brought up as a scenario.
Quote: Caruso
I'm not sure why this is even being brought up as a scenario.
Because Casinomeister wrote that the game logs provided were false. However it looks like he retracted that statement.
Quote: CarusoYou can find a conspiracy theory for anything. There's no evidence that anybody altered anything, BetFred never said anything was altered, and it makes no sense that anything would be altered. So why in the heck try to squeeze an embattled casino through this particular exit door? It reads like a fairy story and would last fully ten seconds court - the time it would take the judge to say something like the above.
I'm not sure why this is even being brought up as a scenario.
Because when the King of "fair play" makes comments like these, (linked below) the coverup is indeed in progress and Binary128 and others are just speculating on what line of bullshit they could possibly come up with.
Binary128 owns and operates Galewind software and his opinion should be well respected on how long any issues like this should take to analyze.
Casinomeister making comments like this:
(quote) "Ongoing means ongoing. That Finsoft thread got ripped to shreds by the GRA. And so far, this is the only thing that the GRA has confirmed.
Over the next few days and into next week, I'll be picking the raisins out of that thread to make some sense out of it. Again, you are looking at one side of the coin - I'm obligated to look at both. I'll be meeting with people next week to get to the bottom of the issue. As you can see, I've been busy." (end quote)
He's already making it clear with that comment above not to expect any response for a week or two. Personally I think this might take longer then it took to find "Bin Laden".
Here is one of the many quotes, making it obvious a coverup is in motion.
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/online-casinos/55076-im-truly-shocked-3.html#post537098
i) The game was, by not unreasonable definitions, rigged, and the casino effectively admitted this with the "fixed price" malarky.
ii) The casino was in breach of the GRA guidelines.
So...what? Is the GRA investigating itself for incompetence? Or Betfred to breaching its rules? What can they be "investigating"?
Quote: CarusoYou can find a conspiracy theory for anything. There's no evidence that anybody altered anything, BetFred never said anything was altered, and it makes no sense that anything would be altered. So why in the heck try to squeeze an embattled casino through this particular exit door? It reads like a fairy story and would last fully ten seconds court - the time it would take the judge to say something like the above.
I'm not sure why this is even being brought up as a scenario.
Eliot made a request ...
Quote: teliotThought experiment: assume the worst for the original poster -- that this really is a worst case scenario of fraud by "Katie Hale." What if the data that was originally given was produced fraudulently by someone with the access and ability to change the programs and log files? If that is the case, then what? Don't argue admissions or other evidence. Just go there -- what if?
... to which I posted a lengthy response.
In re-reading this response, I thought "Holy shit, how can you put any faith in any player-provided game play logs?"
As such I felt it necessary to emphasize that if a Player posted a game play log, and they (or someone) had manipulated that log, then it would be easy for the Casino to track this down.
That is, if the OP in the CM post had published "funky data", then Betfred would have been in a position to not only contradict the conclusions that the OP was trying to make, but also provide detailed data to back up their statements.
And regardless of how this OP-published data had been "funkified", the Casino would have been able to provide detailed data necessary to contradict the OP within 2 days.
After 7 days had passed, I finally asked the Betfred CM Rep "Hey, what's up? You have all the answers to all the questions. One is forced to conclude that the OP is correct, your games are hosed, and the only problem here is how the hell you deal with that."
And it is now getting worse for Betfred, this time with Playtech. The GRA has Spielo G2, Finsoft and now Playtech on its hands.
There is a post on that blog to which I've previously linked. It's long - you can just scroll down to the Bottom Line part, in which they state that the only people involved in the online casino industry that have any understanding of what the hell is going on are the Players. Not the casino managers, not the affiliates, not the regulators - just the Players.
Everyone else is used to operating within an "old-boy network". Now they (the GRA) are actually in a position of having to comply with their own documentation. Personally, I don't think they have a clue on how to go about doing that.
Chris
I don’t care what or how the GRA or all the other phony regulators want to word anything in their phony hand shake regulations when comparing free play to real play. Once the software gets approved, the newly approved software is then off to whatever country the operators decide they want to operate out of. All the phony regulators after accumulating fees will certainly never see it again.
Can anyone explain to me why any casino would want anyone to experience accumulating loses for fun, before willingly having the same experience for real money? Someone needs to get this marketing idea out there to the B&M’s. They missed the boat on this one.
Since a lot of new issues are starting to surface, I think the more clever online gamblers out there that understand better how things work, are finally doing what they should have done years ago. I guess we had to wait for them to realize the word “TRUST” should never be used in the same sentence with online casino games for real money.
Imagine me trying to convince you that real money online casino games must perform exactly the same way for fun or they can’t be on my recommended list. I would have absolutely no fkn idea if they are or aren’t or any way to prove they are. All I got is the people that tell me that these are the facts, and happen to be the same people that want to sell it, who just happen to be the same people that did and said it was tested. Does anyone recognize how pathetic this all actually is? Please don’t tell me about all the testing that’s allegedly being done. Everyone by now has to realize that no one has a clue what software playing logs any online casino actually sent out for testing to get a banner for their site.
If a fraudster could manipulate log files and get a 20k cash refund from a casino, it doesn't look like much needs to be done before sending phony logs to a testing facility. Since the play logs Elliot J. got to review from the player were being considered fraudulent and incomplete by the accused casino and phony regulators; who's making sure whatever the casino or confirmed phony regulators who's enforcement is a handshake are saying is a fact?
If anyone has any faith in what any phony regulator has to say who also are scrambling to save face and maintain their share of a billion dollar industry, must be the same people that believe real and free play results were always equal.
Regardless, if anyone even cares about fun play being compared to real play, Betfred steps up to the plate again and explains how along the way things got screwy and that the two games they did test confirm they are not the same when comparing real results to fun results. But don’t worry, all other games are also going to be tested. Looks like the alleged fraudster Katie91 hit the nail on the head again.
Just for the record, this new breach of the handshake regulations involving fun and real play requirements that were detected wasn't a result of this massive regulator investigation presently taking place for weeks already. It was confirmed once again by an internal investigation performed in house by the operator only after it was brought to their attention from players.
The entire system between the present phony online regulators and operators has been exposed for what it really is over the last few weeks, finally catching the attention of the people that trusted what they were being told. Playing casino games with real money based on trust and a handshake instead of regulation enforcement and always expecting a fair game, is like trying to get water to stay mixed with oil.
The - she said, he said, they said, Abbott and Costello routine can't be sold any longer.
I would feel safer playing at a online casino provided by the Taliban. If operators got caught cheating there, they would have their hands chopped off.
Once again this is all just my personal opinion. Can someone please confirm and prove without a reasonable doubt that what I'm saying is wrong and not possible?
Enjoy this one:
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casino-complaints-non-bonus-issues/55080-playtech-rigged-slots-6.html#post538715
Quote: binary128
In re-reading this response, I thought "Holy shit, how can you put any faith in any player-provided game play logs?"
Chris
The edited essential question I'd like to answer.
This could have been done using a screen-capture app or program. For example my little notebook comes with an embedded Scr-Cap app. Just start, then click and drag. This could have been done in such a way to elucidate the true log as provided. I did this at an on-line casino JIC, and I was playing VP with nickel bets. Since I did not encounter anything unusual, when I cashed out and closed, I deleted the pix when $ in hand (about +$50 on $200 over about 4 months).
Quote: onenickelmiracleHearing this stuff is quite disappointing and you have to wonder what is going on in land based casinos nobody could even figure out if they wanted to, covered up with trade secrets.
I'm going to guess, "Nothing," for a few reasons:
1.) B&M Casinos require significant investment. You have investment in a multi-million dollar physical property whose only real value comes as a result of being issued a gaming license by the jurisdicition in which they operate. After that, you have your hotel (possibly), your tables, your machines, restaurants, entertainment...and everything else all the way down to the free self-serve beverages. If you lose your gaming license, you're done, so it's simply not worth the risk.
2.) Employees. It stands to reason that B&M casinos have significantly more employees than an on-line casino does. Why is this relevant? If you Google, "Restaurant employee secrets," here are the results:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=restaurant+employee+secrets&oq=restaurant+employee+secrets&gs_l=hp.3...812.6178.0.6474.27.27.0.0.0.0.250.4370.0j22j5.27.0.les%3Beqn%2Cfixedpos%3Dfalse%2Cboost_normal%3D40%2Cboost_high%3D40%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse..0.0...1c.1.pFsjiqXZoyk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41867550,d.aWc&fp=47adb63d00368a85&biw=819&bih=476
And you could perform a substantially similar search for virtually any other industry.
If you perform a search for, "Casino employee secrets,":
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=casino+employee+secrets&oq=casino+employee+secrets&gs_l=hp.3...47408.48173.1.48235.7.6.0.0.0.4.359.1015.2j0j2j1.5.0.les%3Beqn%2Cfixedpos%3Dfalse%2Cboost_normal%3D40%2Cboost_high%3D40%2Ccconf%3D1-2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2Crate_low%3D0-035%2Crate_high%3D0-035%2Csecond_pass%3Dfalse%2Cignore_bad_origquery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse..0.0...1c.1.uUQMbmeYofc&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41867550,d.aWc&fp=47adb63d00368a85&biw=819&bih=476
The vast majority of those, "Secrets," involve actual (legal) game protection. The second result down contains two, "Secrets," that an employee tells which are (gasp!) that if you hit a big jackpot at a Vegas casino, they will try to get you to buy stuff from them, and (gasp!) that casinos will occasionally employ shills to encourage big bettors to keep betting. I would say that 95% of gamblers (or more) know about the second one, and while I was not aware of the first (I've always been left on the floor to wait for my jackpot, though given free alcohol, in a sample size of two) it seems like a reasonable guess.
The point of the matter is, in this information era in which we live, were a casino actually cheating, some individual would have already gone public with that fact. It always happens! Would you like to know some secrets about the grocery store at which I used to be employed? I could fill a novella-sized book just using list-format!
3.) They don't have to. They always have the edge, with exception to some VP games, and they don't need the theoretical edge on those because the majority of players create the edge for the casino by virtue of playing poorly.
When you look at this Betfred situation, and whatever other parties are responsible, one notable fact is that they did not have the edge on these games in question. It appears that the physical elements that these games were made to represent would result in a theoretical player return of 100%, but the actual games did not do that.
If I were bound by trade secrets and spilled the beans here, the company has 3 years to discover it and can get the courts to remove my comments anywhere they are written. This is probably why I can't find the story on counterfeit card readers installed by a NA casino. If I search it, all I can find are my own comments about it. I wish it were infallible to think a casino can't cheat, because they have something to lose, but so does the state if they close them. It would be in the state's best interest to cover it up or change the laws, so what they are doing is legal.
For future reference, I am a known cynic. Also, searches can be scrubbed to bury relevant information in searches. A good example is the Alan S Zavacky bot, your new neighbor. Search the name and criminal record to see why.
Quote: 4ofaKindCan anyone explain to me why any casino would want anyone to experience accumulating loses for fun, before willingly having the same experience for real money? Someone needs to get this marketing idea out there to the B&M’s. They missed the boat on this one.
Well 4ofaKind, you and I have been back and forth on this one before. Trust is required, and I can't argue that there are few supportable reasons for a Player to give it. So, take this for what it's worth to you.
Pinnacle has a Play-for-Fun casino, and this casino has a basic Administration reporting system. One report is titled "Recent Player Sessions". Its a list of the last 200 people who entered the casino. Each row includes when they entered, when they exited, how many games they played, how much they bet, how much they won/lost, and that's pretty much it.
Anyway, for the sake of curiosity (and for answering your statements), I just looked at that report and counted the number of Players that won money (during that session) and the number that lost. Here we go:
- 90 Players won. The biggest win was $74,920.50. (The smallest was $0.45)
- 4 Players broke even (neither won nor lost).
- 106 Players lost. (The starting bank is $50K, so the biggest loss was $50K.)
So ... The 90 Players that won now think that the Play-for-Fun Casino is rigged. The 106 Players that lost think that the casino sucks because they will lose if they wager "real money".
I can tell you - I have thought about this A LOT. It's like a no-win situation. But there is no way that I'm bringing down that Play-for-Fun product because providing that capability is the kind of thing that I would want if I were a Player.
Quote: 4ofaKindImagine me trying to convince you that real money online casino games must perform exactly the same way for fun or they can’t be on my recommended list. I would have absolutely no fkn idea if they are or aren’t or any way to prove they are. All I got is the people that tell me that these are the facts, and happen to be the same people that want to sell it, who just happen to be the same people that did and said it was tested.
Again, I can't argue with that. (I wish I could, but I can't.)
Quote: 4ofaKindOnce again this is all just my personal opinion. Can someone please confirm and prove without a reasonable doubt that what I'm saying is wrong and not possible?
I can for Galewind, but to do so would take A LOT of your time, because you would have to be the one to run all of the games.
Personally, I think that if there is anyone in this industry who has worked damn hard to demonstrate that what we provide is a straight up honest game, that would be Galewind. As Eliot can attest, I haven't just bent over backwards, I've twisted myself into a pretzel to make that statement true. I have repeatedly sacrificed profit for honesty and integrity, I'm doing that today, and I'll continue to do that as long as I'm involved in what we do.
Take that for what it's worth to you.
(Slowly exiting the podium.)
Chris
What I’m about to say is based on all the transparent data you and others have supplied at several different forums. Although, I’m considered a “Tin Hat Troll” and banned from casinomeister, I’ve stayed current on all your input.
It’s obvious anyone attempting to point out the endless flaws and distrust one must have when considering gambling at online casino games, along with demanding proof of facts (never received one) instead of bullshit words, you don’t get to hang around long at CM.
My impression of how Pinnacle is being run with Galewind software should be the model used today when considering the negative circumstances a player would have to except if he choose to gamble online. Along with your stellar record and nothing but positive posts from players who experienced Pinnacle, one should realize how broken the present online gaming industry actually is. What your software has in place for all too openly view is as close to self regulation one could expect.
Unfortunately, it is also obvious your transparent efforts are pretty much being shoved to the side by most. Pinnacle’s approach is very similar to the operations used at land based casinos, and appears this is not the best business model to generate the income needed to satisfy all the fish in this online gaming ocean.
Bonuses combined with bait and switch tactics, T&C gimmicks, payment gimmicks, rigged games, (and I could carry on endlessly) is by far a better option for faster cash then offering just a plain old simple fair game of chance.
Regulation with enforcement puts everyone on the same playing field, and is what nobody in the industry wants. They all prefer things just as they are. No regulation and no enforcement.
If online casinos were forced to abide by regulations the entire industry would eventually wean down to maybe 20. Imagine how long the Vegas Strip would be with a thousand casinos lined up.
Affiliates that promote all this other nonsense is a perfect example why they don’t promote your straight up program. There’s nothing in it for them.
I also know you post often at CM, but suspect your transparency and up front honesty is not welcomed. The problem they have is since you’re a software provider it would look bad if they rid you. You could be certain if you were anyone else especially after jumping all over the obvious cover-up you would have been long gone.
I also want to change a statement I made in previous post that I would feel safer gambling at a casino run by the Taliban. No doubt it would actually be Pinnacle.
Quote: teliotI am satisfied with the conclusions about the software; it is gaffed. But I am not satisfied professionally: I unknowingly agreed to do fairness work on behalf of a person who was attempting to scam bonuses from a casino and lied to me over a period of days.
I get that. I might feel the same. But as an outside observer, I disregard the latter, or put it in an entirely separate category. The former is my only interest.
But look how the industry is trying to spin it. This is how Herr Bailey has done his utmost to shift the focus:
Quote:this player opened an account at Betfred using another person's identity, knowingly gave incomplete information to those checking his gameplay, and resulted in misconstrued findings. There have also been reports that there is erroneous information in this thread that is causing many here to make misinformed assumptions - thus causing undo harm to a number of operators. It also appears that the OP is much more than a multi-account fraudster. New information and developments are presently evolving which members may need to take into account before drawing any conclusions.
Not one word about what you yourself call "gaffed software", and that passage contains at least one direct LIE. Tell me that's not deplorable - didn't I hear he was a "player advocate" somewhere?
In the face of this kind of a cover up - the timing of which is because of the approaching big online gambling events in the UK - who in the heck cares he opened an account in his sister's name? Boo frikkin' hoo.
I have been in touch with the investigating commissioner at the GRA. This is the concluding paragraph from the last e-mail I sent him:Quote: CarusoNot one word about what you yourself call "gaffed software".
"This business is dirty. There is no getting around that. Whatever you can do to help clean up the companies that produce rogue products or the casinos that offer these programs is paramount. Going after individual players is secondary. The rogues are still out there in a big way. Go after them!"
Quote: teliotI have been in touch with the investigating commissioner at the GRA. This is the concluding paragraph from the last e-mail I sent him:
"This business is dirty. There is no getting around that. Whatever you can do to help clean up the companies that produce rogue products or the casinos that offer these programs is paramount. Going after individual players is secondary. The rogues are still out there in a big way. Go after them!"
Guess you never got a response after that closing. I would have to think their threw with talking to you.
Quote: teliotI have been in touch with the investigating commissioner at the GRA. This is the concluding paragraph from the last e-mail I sent him:
"This business is dirty. There is no getting around that. Whatever you can do to help clean up the companies that produce rogue products or the casinos that offer these programs is paramount. Going after individual players is secondary. The rogues are still out there in a big way. Go after them!"
Them's fightin' words. And damn fine ones.
I'm glad that someone with some degree of clout has sent them such a pointed statement. I feel that many in the industry, including regulatory agencies and those they employ, simply accept that the online casino world is corrupt. They know about it, and just go on with their lives as though this is a fundamental element to the business.
Quote: CarusoWhat is there for the GRA to "investigate"?
i) The game was, by not unreasonable definitions, rigged, and the casino effectively admitted this with the "fixed price" malarky.
ii) The casino was in breach of the GRA guidelines.
So...what? Is the GRA investigating itself for incompetence? Or Betfred to breaching its rules? What can they be "investigating"?
There is a Wikiquote page on Politics. On there, under the label "Government bureaucracy", is the following:
Quote: WikiquotePolitics is the art of postponing decisions until they are no longer relevant.
Chris
Quote: CarusoLike I said at GPWA, one major purpose for delaying is to avoid any confrontation at the ICE or LAC. From my end that won't work, but I'm guessing I'll be the usual lone voice. The industry isn't in the habuit of pissing on itself, and hence they know they can duck pretty much anything.
Is there a chance of running into any interested media?
Quote: 4ofaKindIs there a chance of running into any interested media?
I highly doubt it, but I'll let you know tomorrow evening. :-)
No sign of the GRA this year.
I go to Casino A and deposit $$$ using an ATM card (direct checking acct link). Casino A checks my acct#, verifies a balance to cover, and asks me to verify my nearest branch (address town state). I play around for a few months with that balance and decide to leave. When I leave, I need additional verification, beyond what is/was offered. To which I reply, no, you had enough to TAKE my money, and thats enough to RETURN my money. Casino A replies, those are the rules. I reply, You (Casino A) did not terminate the account due to 1.) any falsification, 2.) the information I provided remains unchanged, and 3.) you have not received a warning notice on my card number (not stolen or lost). My account is mine, and you accepted the $$$. By laws in my jurisdiction, if 1, 2, or 3 were true, you could be convicted on money-laundering, or aiding/abetting a felony. So I stand my ground, and demand payment of my account. To which Casino A responds, Its the rules. So I provide a copy of a utility bill, and Casino A pays in less than 20 days.
That was BEFORE UIGEA in 2004.
Quote: 98ClubsOne of the things that still bothers me about the OLG industry...
I go to Casino A and deposit $$$ using an ATM card (direct checking acct link). Casino A checks my acct#, verifies a balance to cover, and asks me to verify my nearest branch (address town state). I play around for a few months with that balance and decide to leave. When I leave, I need additional verification, beyond what is/was offered. To which I reply, no, you had enough to TAKE my money, and thats enough to RETURN my money. Casino A replies, those are the rules. I reply, You (Casino A) did not terminate the account due to 1.) any falsification, 2.) the information I provided remains unchanged, and 3.) you have not received a warning notice on my card number (not stolen or lost). My account is mine, and you accepted the $$$. By laws in my jurisdiction, if 1, 2, or 3 were true, you could be convicted on money-laundering, or aiding/abetting a felony. So I stand my ground, and demand payment of my account. To which Casino A responds, Its the rules. So I provide a copy of a utility bill, and Casino A pays in less than 20 days.
That was BEFORE UIGEA in 2004.
That rigmarole is designed to provide a time period where the casino can try to figure out a way to withhold your winnings. As we learned from the now-legendary "Jaguar" incident at Betfred, if your winnings are big enough, they will take the time to look over your entire play history in an attempt to find something that would "justify" their actions.
The sportsbook casinos are usually better. Nordicbet and Pinnacle both require complete verification before you're allowed to deposit.
I’ve read more then once somewhere that some press were actually looking into this. Maybe the regulatory commission started getting calls for questions. Maybe this issue got bigger then just assorted forum members. After all it does involve some of the biggest operators out there.
It is a billion dollar industry and the operators and software providers might even realize it’s time for a change. Since the UIGEA was passed it seems like every year since there’s another scandal involving the online industry. I’m sure the online gaming industry had a correction over the past few years just like the B&M’s did. They have to realize if the USA ever shows up being regulated like Vegas, it’s pretty much over for them.
You never know, but just maybe they’ll decide to come out with a whole new enforcement program showing the actual results of all games at all casinos being monitored every month like the real regulation being done in Vegas and A.C. (anyone could view this information at anytime) Enforcing casinos to exhibit all game data similar to what Pinnacle presently displays.
Of course it could be just wishful thinking that the press really care, and they are just keeping quite not interfering with the ICE exhibition taking place now. Then afterwards just blow some more smoke up our asses, and then count on the eventual forum fade away. Loose a few thousand forum customers gain a few thousand new ones from the trusted spin artist affiliates.
Looks like the fade away is working well over at casinomeister already. Most of the cult members are already playing everything down to irrelevant.
Heyyyyy, ya never know!
Quote: 4ofaKindOf course it could be just wishful thinking that the press really care, and they are just keeping quite not interfering with the ICE exhibition taking place now.
I drew a blank.
Spielo actually sponsored one of the 10 entrances of a gargantuan exhibition floor, and their stands were huge. It's a totally massive company. I "talked at" one likely person, a casino games designer, for a good five minutes before discovering he was only B & M and didn't have a clue about the issue. I spoke to one Matt, some kind of a liason bloke, who told me anyone who would be of use to me (after I'd explained the issues) was "in meetings", and he couldn't (or wouldn't) give me any contact details. He wouldn't even give me his own frikkin' business card. He said to come back a bit later, but I knew it'd be pointless so didn't bother. So a cynic could argue that everyone is basically hiding. I took away some casino and games marketing blurb, but they don't even have phone numbers or emails listed!
Fact is, given time this'll all blow over and away.
That's why they have to steal as much as they can, while they can.
Quote: BuzzardThat's why they have to steal as much as they can, while they can.
I don't think that is what is on their minds. That would imply that they are applying significant forethought to their actions, which I think is a gross overestimation of the general intelligence of the industry. I suspect that their behaviors are solely concerned with the next thirty days -- ninety max.
Quote: CarusoI drew a blank.
Spielo actually sponsored one of the 10 entrances of a gargantuan exhibition floor, and their stands were huge. It's a totally massive company. I "talked at" one likely person, a casino games designer, for a good five minutes before discovering he was only B & M and didn't have a clue about the issue. I spoke to one Matt, some kind of a liason bloke, who told me anyone who would be of use to me (after I'd explained the issues) was "in meetings", and he couldn't (or wouldn't) give me any contact details. He wouldn't even give me his own frikkin' business card. He said to come back a bit later, but I knew it'd be pointless so didn't bother. So a cynic could argue that everyone is basically hiding. I took away some casino and games marketing blurb, but they don't even have phone numbers or emails listed!
Fact is, given time this'll all blow over and away.
No doubt us forum members actually believed we might have some persuasive input towards serious needed change for the better. Unfortunately, we don't realize where we stand amongst a multi-billion dollar industry when it concerns serious matters.
We might get little tweaks done here and there but when it gets serious like involving real regulation and real enforcement we would have a better chance of winning a lottery.
If you consider all the posts and threads in all the different forums and all the different topics and concerns, you will realize that all of the discussions and disagreements are usually just among the members going back and forth.
The only time and reason any rep. will get involved in any thread is for the benefit of commercializing their own interests. Even if it means agreeing with the accusations.
Casinomeister’s site brags how they recover 100k a year for players. The sad truth is that the recovered funds should have never been stolen from the players in the first place, and something that shouldn’t be used as an advertising gimmick to get players to sign onto casinos through their websites. When you compare 100k against 10/20 billion it’s like tip money for a waitress. One hundred thousand dollars couldn’t even buy you a full second of commercial time during the super bowl.
All the different people combined that read everything on this rigged game bullshit, and understand the facts, and then decided never to play online again because of what is written, the combined losses to the casinos still couldn’t buy them a full second commercial.
Affiliate websites and forums designed for online gaming are created, owned, and operated for one purpose…personal gain.
All the affiliates, watchdogs, and forum members combined when being compared to the multi-billion dollar online gaming industry, are just another fly landing on another pile of shit
Quote: 4ofaKindCasinomeister’s site brags how they recover 100k a year for players.
I haven't seen that claim, but it's a pittance. Another well known webmaster I know collected around 100K for just one player. I've helped a few players, and the amounts are always in the thousands. How much is he paying Drayman to collect so little?
These forums etc are all run by the industry. Bailey will not get involved, that's a given. GPWA will not get involved (sorry, Michael) for the same reasons, nor will you see any APCW videos about this (sorry, Todd and Anthony). Forums etc are all hosted by The Industry, so let's not have any delusion about what The Industry is or isn't going to do. The thing can get a head of steam, but all that's while it seems fairly trivial. As soon as the heat builds, the axe will fall and the whitewash begins - remember the lies and the smokescreen Bailey posted at the top of the BetFred thread:
Quote:this player opened an account at Betfred using another person's identity, knowingly gave incomplete information to those checking his gameplay, and resulted in misconstrued findings. There have also been reports that there is erroneous information in this thread that is causing many here to make misinformed assumptions - thus causing undo harm to a number of operators. It also appears that the OP is much more than a multi-account fraudster. New information and developments are presently evolving which members may need to take into account before drawing any conclusions.
If it gets into the mainstream media then the genie's out, but that's almost impossible: first get an interested journalist, then insure they aren't thrown off course by the lies and smokescreens the industry will concoct. And don't expect any help from any affiliates or even many players, many of whom do not want to see the industry damaged, particularly APs who are more than happy to see the industry do anything it wants as long as they can continue to run as many accounts as they need to enjoy a nice lifestyle.
So sorry, but it ain't happenin'.
Quote: CarusoAnd don't expect any help from any affiliates or even many players, many of whom do not want to see the industry damaged, particularly APs who are more than happy to see the industry do anything it wants as long as they can continue to run as many accounts as they need to enjoy a nice lifestyle.
It was fun to see those UK bonus hunters at beating bonuses forum freak out when UK media was mentioned.
Well, no one in the industry is interested in what APs think so it doesn't it really matter how they want things to be, as they have no say in it.
Besides I cannot see how this case making the media would affect on-line APs at all. Sure the OP had two accounts (term multi-accounter implies at least three accounts by the way, not just two) but that's hardly relevant to the story.
Quote: Jufo81Quote: CarusoAnd don't expect any help from any affiliates or even many players, many of whom do not want to see the industry damaged, particularly APs who are more than happy to see the industry do anything it wants as long as they can continue to run as many accounts as they need to enjoy a nice lifestyle.
It was fun to see those UK bonus hunters at beating bonuses forum freak out when UK media was mentioned.
Well, no one in the industry is interested in what APs think so it doesn't it really matter how they want things to be, as they have no say in it.
Besides I cannot see how this case making the media would affect on-line APs at all. Sure the OP had two accounts (term multi-accounter implies at least three accounts by the way, not just two) but that's hardly relevant to the story.
Yes, but their help can be useful - look at the work done by APs in this case and others. But their help will end as soon as it starts to dawn that the cashflow might be affected.
While the duplicate account in this case is indeed not relevant (multiple is more than one, but let's not swerve off into semantics), it's a convenient smokescreen that the industry would blow out of every conceivable proportion if the shit ever really did hit the fan. It's not relevant to APs, but it would play its part, albeit entirely unjustifiably.
Right now, the objective is to let this thing slide. Players get bored, other things come along (I see something about Playtech slots now banging away at Bailey's) and you can solve this kind of thing just by keeping it out of sight for long enough. I hope this doesn't happen; major software firms are delivering basically rigged games to major operators, and the major operators have known about it for several years at least and done nothing. GTech and BetFred deserve a sound outing, tarring and feathering.
Only people residing in New Jersey could play on these sites all being run by the casinos that presently exist in Atlantic City. All software will be stationed in Atlantic City monitored and audited by real gaming regulators and enforcement. Couple of the casinos stocks already took off.
Although, Nevada and Delaware already passed online gaming laws, it's a good sign when a state lik N.J. gets involved.
Hopefully this helps spread legalization throughout the states.
Maybe us forum members will sooner then later get to watch the present online gaming crooks suck some ass and finally die. They had their way with players all over the world for over 15 years.
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/casino-complaints-non-bonus-issues/54475-finsoft-spielo-g2-games-issue-8.html#post531537
Quote:The investigation into the complaint raised here in regard to the Reel Deal game has started yielding results, and as promised before they will be disclosed in this thread. The below is confirmed by Finsoft – the supplier through which Betfred receive Realistic Games products.
Analysis has revealed that Reel Deal was indeed returning at 96%, despite being advertised at 100%. Finsoft’s review revealed that this was the result of an administrative error on the game’s deployment to Betfred, where the wrong help file was attached to the game.
All lies. It didn't "start yielding results". They knew five years ago.
"Analysis" revealed all this - and it didn't take more than a check on the help file - five years ago.
BetFred acted like it was all new. It was fully five years old, and they knew all along.
Quote:Max and I spoke with Aaron for about an hour on Tuesday during the ICE and pretty much cleared this up.
Great, it's all good. Yayyyyyyyyyyy.
But what was cleared up? Apparently, nothing.
Quote:Once the GRA has determined whether or not the software is in compliance with their regulations then Betfred will be able to take further actions.
It wasn't. We categorically know that. And why is it down to BetFred to take action? Isn't that the regulator's job?
Quote:This issue is very complex, and due to the complexities, it will take a while for a complete resolution.
No. It's very simple. BetFred used cheating software, in breach of their regulations. If a bunch of dumb posters can work this out, what does this say about the "authorities"?
And wasn't it that we "pretty much cleared this up"? For such clarity, you wouldn't expect such total non-statements to follow. You'd expect, err, "clarity".
I love watching this industry trying to spin itself into oblivion.
1: There is more information than what we can conclude from the data.
2: This information is embarrassing for all parties.
The nature of this information is most interesting for me as regards the GRA. We already know that they are not enforcing their own regulations, so their reputation is shot. Can we conclude that they are not only failing to enforce their regulations but are intentionally complicit in corruption?
Perhaps they are trying to find a way to actually start enforcing their regulations in some attempt at saving face and are receiving resistance from the casinos. Obviously, Gibraltar is barely a country, and a large hunk of its revenue comes from online gambling, so they want to be as... amenable, to these companies as possible.
I wonder if negotiations are going on right now about possible new regulations that will both allow the GRA to claim authority and respectability while not actually forcing any onerous, ya' know, RULES on the casinos.
Quote:I was also moderating a panel discussion late that morning, and I was especially looking forward to that. Not just because of the intriguing and highly informative topic - "Inside Players' Minds", but because there was rumor of a small group of forum trolls who were planning to highjack the discussion with their misguided and ill-informed agenda laden bullshit.
I was ready for a verbal throw down, but alas, I was dissapointed - they were either no-shows, or cowering in the back row somewhere too chicken-shit to confront me in person. But this is typical for forum nobodies - these trolls. Their importance to the affiliate community and gaming industry is bloated in their tiny heads. Talk is cheap. And as expected - it was all bluster. Fine - that's one less bug to squash.
This kind, considered tirade was directed at me, after I'd said I'd be attending his marketing pitch session at the London affiliate conference (and I didn't, mainly for logistical reasons) to raise the issue of BetFred and the cheating software.
I'll leave it that. What professionalism.
http://www.spielog2.com/news/stories/spielo-g2-triumphs-at-2012-egr-b2b-awards.aspx
Personally, I think all the noise people made online at different forums relating to this scandal will eventually have the rude awakening of how meaningless we all actually are in the multi billion dollar unregulated online gaming industry. (That's if we haven't already)
Quote: 4ofaKindPersonally, I think all the noise people made online at different forums relating to this scandal will eventually have the rude awakening of how meaningless we all actually are in the multi billion dollar unregulated online gaming industry. (That's if we haven't already)
The story about Absolute Poker and Ultimate Poker broke on the forums, which eventually led to 60 Minutes and nationwide exposure.
