Gambler accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas - Sued for return of $700,000

Quote: Keyser

Again, can anyone say 'bad faith'?

You have certainly said it enough for everyone.

Yes, I probably have. However I want to make sure it shows up enough that people see this for what it really is -the Wynn is trying to get out of paying it's gambling debts.

If the dice sliders are found guilty of cheating, then it's not truly gambling winnings, and they might have to pay the money to Wynn.

My two cents:

I have never seen a case like this before, where people were being charged after the fact in a dice game. Yes, the dice throw is "illegal" but typically it's called with a "no roll" from the box. Any regular shooter will once in a while throw short, even slide the dice accidently on occasion. It's up to the box to enforce this.

The boxman (and the stick) has the right to say "no roll" at any point in time, and when the dice are sliding and that much action is on the table, there are usually two people looking at the roll to make sure it's legit. At a small table that's not busy, they sometimes do not employ a box, but I can't imagine this being the case given the ction.

So, let's say that the boxman was being distracted and that the player's accomplice was betting "on the slide". This seems like the case. If the crew is distracted, a slide takes place, and the accomplice is betting $100 say on the number that they're trying to get, a slid roll could easily pass. Perhaps the scheme was such that the slide only happened from time to time and since the slider wasn't betting big (the accomplice was) and the box was being distracted, this could pass. Perhaps some tipping could make the box look the other way on the roll. Who knows?

What I sense is that this is a long and determined effort by a team (of more than 2), that sliding was only happening on occasion, that distraction was occurring, and that the discovery and collection of evidence happened well after the fact. They were able to stay under the radar for a while because the slider wasn't betting big, and the frequency of the slide was low enough and not detected by the crew due to distraction. While hindsight is indeed 20-20, surveillance relies heavily on the pit to enforce this game.

Wynn will probably win its case and recover its money, and yes, it's probably being publicized to prevent that occurrence from happening again. Whether the crew was involved illicitly is unknown, but from another article, craps dealers were let go, either from not detecting the issue or because they were involved.

If there was no collusion with any Wynn employee I would find it difficult to convict these people.
Question- Mr. Craps dealer, do you ever allow a roll to count if it does not hit the back wall?
Answer- Yes, sometimes, but I will warn the shooter not to let it happen again.
Question- Did you ever warn these shooters?
Answer- No.
The defense rests.

If there was collusion witha craps dealer that is a whole different story.

Quote: Paigowdan

If the dice sliders are found guilty of cheating, then it's not truly gambling winnings, and they might have to pay the money to Wynn.

Dan, I usually disagree with your views, but I'm glad you're on this forum, because I appreciate your perspective.

Dice-setting is only cheating if it works. If it doesn't work, then the dice-setter wannabe is just another guy wagering money on a negative expectation game. So would you back off a dice-setter who sucked at dice-setting? If I worked in casino management, I would welcome as many incompetent dice-setters as I could to come play in my establishment.

Which brings me to the real question: is it even possible to bounce the dice against the back wall of the table and still influence the dice? I'm willing to accept that if such a feat is possible that it is indeed a form of cheating. But I'm not willing to accept that it is common or easy. It is very difficult and very rare.

Another opinion from a non-lawyer who knows nothing about the case other than what is in this thread ....

I don't consider a practice to be illegal unless it violates some law or tort. If sliding the dice violates Nevada law, then the dice sliders should be charged with criminal conduct and then be subject to civil action, but I haven't seen anyone pointing to the law that they broke.

My impression is that dice sliding violates the house policy of many/most/all casinos regarding how the dice are to be thrown. If you violate a house policy but do not violate the law, then I think it should be left to the casino operators (dealers, box man, pit supervisor, etc.) to enforce their policies at the time the practice is occurring. Obviously, crews enforce this policy sometimes and let the "violations" go at other times.

If the crew doesn't notice an improper roll, chalk it up to a failure of the crew and get them trained better. If they notice but don't enforce the rule, then the practice seems to have been declared acceptable for that evening, though they would be free to enforce their policy at any later time they choose. If the crew is complicit and benefiting from the trick rolls, then there is fraud in the fact that they deliberately allowed it to happen for personal gain. In that case, both the players and the employees should be charged with criminal action and be targeted with civil suits.

I don't think they have much basis for a civil law suit against the players unless there is conduct that violates either law or tort or there was some fraud such as involving the employees. Just not abiding by a policy that is the responsibility of the crew to enforce does not seem like fraud to me.

At the casino I work at, we have backed off and gotten rid of a couple of dice sliders. They lost a lot of money thereby enrichening the casino, AND they used to toke (tip) the dealers very generously; they were marked as casino cheats in the network, and were gone very quickly. Nice guys in terms of their treatment of people and their gracious behavior - but casino cheats. Not good casino cheats, but casino cheats by their actions..."No rolled" and removed, gone for good.

It wasn't a question of whether they won or lost.

It wasn't a question about the dice hitting the back wall.

It was a question of whether or not they slid the dice over the felt, which is a casino cheating manuever. That was the action, and only action, that is at the heart of the matter. Doesn't matter if they were good at it. It mattered if they did it. They did.

We enforced our policies in regards to their actions, - without looking at extraneous issues.

We did not ask "did they win or lose?"
"Dice hitting the back wall?" was not the issue.
And we did not let them stick around, just to see if they would win or lose. They were no-rolled, caught and expelled.

IF something is considered cheating by house policy - offenders should quickly be removed from the house.
IF it is additionally illegal, there may be police and attorney involvement.
IF the Wynn wishes to seek a lawsuit against these people, they will do so.
If it is approved to go to civil trial, there will be a civil trial.
IF the judge and jury make a ruling, that ruling is enforced.

Card counting is not illegal. Casinos have the right not to do business with card counters.

Dice setting and controlled throwing is not illegal. But dice sliding IS illegal as that particular technique is considered illegal.

I have been asked to leave various casinos because I use a controlled throw with set dice. But I have never been accused of a crime or threatened with arrest. The casinos didnt like that I set my dice and used a controlled throw.

Had I slid the dice, it would have been different.

I don't know how to slide dice, and never tried... just for the record.

Spot on.

By the way, we are fine with dice setters who do not delay the game.
Our current policy is you may set the dice, so as long as you do not delay the game, and hit the back wall.
But Sliding dice: O-U-T out.

I would be interested in viewing whatever "proof" the casinos have of the sliding activity.

Obviously nobody saw it as it happened, so the evidence must all be from the Eye.

One must wonder if the camera has sufficient resolution to clearly show the dice sliding?

I assume it must, otherwise no claim could possibly be made against them.

Just how good, how powerful, are the cameras, and to what degree can their images be magnified, still retaining sufficient clarity?

Let's not forget that this case involves two separate claims from two different sources, each with a different burden of proof: the criminal charge (beyond a reasonable doubt) and the civil suit (preponderance of the evidence, i.e. more likely than not).

I suspect it will play out like the case against the team who used cell phones to take down a London casino at roulette: the casino came in roaring like a lion but went out meekly bleating like a lamb.

Quote: boymimbo

What I sense is a long and determined effort by a team (of more than 2), that sliding was only happening on occasion, that distraction was occurring, and that the discovery and collection of evidence happened well after the fact. They were able to stay under the radar for a while because the slider wasn't betting big, and the frequency of the slide was low enough and not detected by the crew due to distraction. While hindsight is indeed 20-20, surveillance relies heavily on the pit to enforce this game.

I think this will turn out to be the case. Wynn probably had to go back thru the tapes because expert blockers were at work during the live sessions and surveillance happened not to be watching that table at the time. Most likely it was the two Argentinian individuals who were merely the front personnel but the excited other players who were reaching out to make bets or trying to call a bet too late or just jumping up and down excitedly and knocking chips from the rail or something who were the blockers and distractors.

Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't matter if they were good at it. It mattered if they did it. They did.

So you'd back off all card-counters. Even counters who suck at counting cards?

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?

Probably no one, rx, but it wasn't as simple as that.

Well, that would be part of the defense. How many players would call out their own mistake. You've nearly got to show collusion I think to have anything at all, especially if it's irregular over a month.

Quote: reno

Dice-setting is only cheating if it works.

This is the slippery slope the casino is on. If you attempt
to rob a bank, and don't get any money, you still go to
jail. The casino says card counting and dice setting is
cheating, yet they only enforce it if you're winning. Is
it cheating or isn't it, make up your minds.

Quote: EvenBob

This is the slippery slope the casino is on. If you attempt
to rob a bank, and don't get any money, you still go to
jail. The casino says card counting and dice setting is
cheating, yet they only enforce it if you're winning. Is
it cheating or isn't it, make up your minds.

++.

If a short roll is against the rules... EVERY short roll should be a no throw. Not only if it 7's out (I've never been warned on a short roll when I chucked a 7....).

If a dice slide is against the rules, the casino should no throw every slide. If they lose to a cheat that they should have detected, they should take their chops.

Game protection is a two way street. Both to protect the player and the casino and offer a "fair" game (at least one with consistent rules for all to follow).

Quote: rxwine

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?

I do not call out numbers ... that is the crew's job. I do not call out "no roll"... that is the crew's job, even if my roll quite rightfully deserves it and my bankroll would desperately be pleading for it, ... its still the crew's job. I do not call "no roll" ... its not what a player does. Its like an actor who just flubbed his lines calling out "Cut". Its just improper. A Director calls Action and Cut. No one else. Ever! Even if the footage only ends up on the gag roll, the actors do not call "cut".

One box man came alive when a woman got the dice and threw them in the wrong direction but it was he who said No Roll, not the players. Clearly it was a No Roll... but despite whatever bad karma we want to visit on the woman for her maiden roll being in the wrong direction... it is still the crew's job, not the players.

Quote: thecesspit

If a dice slide is against the rules, the casino should no throw every slide.

Exactly. And if somebody is counting, he should be
backed off. The pit is very good now at spotting
counters, but they tolerate it if the counter is
losing. It looks like they tolerate the slider for
the same reason. The casino mentality is so
over powered by greed that they try and manipulate
every aspect of every game to squeeze every
last dollar out of any situation. Then they have the
gall to get on a soapbox and preach to us about
all those wascally cheaters, like they, the casino, are
are pure as the driven snow.

Quote: FleaStiff

One box man came alive when a woman got the dice and threw them in the wrong direction

Hah, I just had this image of a woman throwing the dice over her shoulder. For good luck, of course.

A couple of things: first there is no question what a dice slide is. It can easily be viewed from the eye. the dice are literally on the table surface, and do not roll or bounce. some casinos have a ridge midway down the table that will prevent a slide, but I never played at the Wynn because the time I checked out their tables they felt to be too bouncey to my touch.

The eye can certainly record a slide and there is no doubt about that.

About the crew: the number one rule for game protection is to keep your eye on the dice at all times. obviously had they done that, they would have seen the slide.

Next question: did they know a slide was illegal?

Next question: if the crew didnt watch the dice (error on part of crew) and if the crew didn't know a slide is illegal (error on part of crew) can a casino sue the players after the fact once the video from the eye is reviewed? I think that question has to be decided in court.

But clearly, the crew had the opportunity to stop the slide the first time, the second time, the third time...

get the point?

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

Quote: reno

Dice-setting is only cheating if it works.

This is totally false. As I reported, and quoted the NGC officials, craps is the only game in the casino in which the casino turns the decision making over to the player. And in the game of craps the player has every opportunity to make the decision in his favor using legal means.

Dice settng is legal. A controlled throw is legal. But there is an exception and it is clearly about sliding dice -- it has been ruled illegal.

Now, a casino has every right not to allow someone to set the dice, or throw the dice in a controlled manner. But it is not illegal to set or to throw in a controlled way.

It is illegal to slide the dice.

Regarding the question about influencing the dice if they bounce against the back wall? Obviously, the chance of influencing drops dramatically if the dice bounce off the back wall. The real dice experts do not bounce their dice... the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a stop. This is how I got into trouble at Bellagio... my dice came to rest against the back wall and did not bounce off the back wall "a minimum of six inches" which is what the table crew demanded.

Later, Bellagio execs told me their table crew was wrong. There is no requirement to "bounce off" and only to "hit" the back wall.

> The real dice experts do not bounce their dice...
I think you mean "expert cheaters"
> the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a[n immediate] stop.
>This is how I got into trouble at Bellagio...
Backroomed? Back Alleyed? Or just "No Roll"?

>"my dice came to rest against the back wall and did not bounce off the back wall "a minimum of six inches"
And did they add that six inch requirement out of thin air just for that occasion.

>Later, Bellagio execs told me their table crew was wrong. There is no requirement to "bounce off" and only to "hit" the back wall.
Did this "later" help you financially or solely aid your feelings about the incident?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Regarding the question about influencing the dice if they bounce against the back wall? Obviously, the chance of influencing drops dramatically if the dice bounce off the back wall. The real dice experts do not bounce their dice... the dice hit the back wall under the pyramids and come to a stop.

From a long tutorial on dice sliding and dice setting:

"Nice slow arc and landing. The dice take two to three bounces, square and flush to the table surface, just in front of the diamond wall, gently repel off the back wall, and then "die" like "fly paper" sticking them to the table."

Quote: AlanMendelson

As I reported, and quoted the NGC officials ... Dice settng is legal. A controlled throw is legal. But there is an exception and it is clearly about sliding dice -- it has been ruled illegal.

So a dead cat bounce is legal, and a slide isn't?

There's little or no real difference between a successful slide and a successful dead cat bounce, and yet you claim one will land the shooter in prison, and the other will result in him being proclaimed the World's Greatest Shooter by Scoblete.

I submit that the only way to clarify this ambiguity would be to absolutely prohibit dice sliding and setting.

Heck, take it to the next level and have the legislature enact a statute criminalizing these two attempts to pull a fast one on the casino.

Be clear, be consistent: no gray areas.

"Just pick em up and toss em."

No exceptions.

Problem solved, and the game will move along faster, without all the superstitious morons trying to set and fix the dice "just so."

Quote: MrV

Problem solved, and the game will move along faster, without all the superstitious morons trying to set and fix the dice "just so."

How can the casino stop it? A real pro can set the
dice in less than 2 seconds, thats almost impossible
to spot with the naked eye.

Quote: EvenBob

How can the casino stop it? A real pro can set the
dice in less than 2 seconds, thats almost impossible
to spot with the naked eye.

Like I said, "Just pick em up and throw em."

Do NOT allow the player to manipulate the dice at all.

One warning, and if the moron continues, pass the dice to the next shooter.

Easy.

Quote: Paigowdan

Doesn't matter if they were good at it [dice sliding]. It matters if they did it. They did.

Quote: reno

So you'd back off all card-counters. Even counters who suck at counting cards?

Yes. That is the job of the table games' pit crew and surveillance, and card counters get backed off if caught. Go play Roulette.

Quote: sdb

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?

It's next to impossible to slide the dice by accident - no less on purpose, but some can do this trick.

Furthermore, I return money to the dealer to be put back in the rack - where it belongs - on such occasions:

1. When a dealer mistakenly paid my DC bet on a seven out.
2. Folded Three card poker hands holding an ace when the dealer, from inexperience, showed a low-pip hold card, and I told the dealer to stop exposing hole cards.
3. Played out a King-high three card hand when another dealer showed an Ace, again, flashing the Three card hand's bottom card - as I would have played out the hand otherwise. Again mentioning: "Please don't flash the bottom card of your hand."
It personally bothers me to take money "not won" by me.

If I become acclimated to taking dirty money, I'd become like most gamblers, and not like fewer gamblers.

Let's clear up the misconception: dice sliding has nothing to do with a "toss."

think of dice sliding as putting your finger on top of a coin and pushing the coin to the end of a table. the coin does not bounce. the coin does not lift off the table surface. the coin will slide to the table end.

if the die or dice are tossed so that they hit the table at least once then there is no slide. and if the dice bounce ounce off the table and reach (hit) the back wall, then it is a legal bounce.

dice setting, and a controlled throw is not cheating. don't even suggest it is.

A dead cat bounce? Do you mean a light toss so that the dice hit the table once and do not move, or, the dice are thrown lightly so they are trapped under the pyramids and do not bounce? here the key is did the dice fly in the air, and hit the back wall and table surface. if you can throw the dice lightly so they hit the table just under the pyramids and are trapped there it is a legal throw. if you mean the dice are thrown lightly, hit the table and stop dead but do not hit the back wall it is a "no roll."

guys: a "slide" is a slide. it has a definition-- the dice do not fly in the air, they do not bounce off the table surface, and that alone makes it illegal. It doesnt matter if the slide reaches the back wall because it fails to meet the other two out of three requirements for a legal throw.

by the way: one of the reasons why "new dice" are introduced to the table is that the sharp edges on new dice make it difficult if not impossible to slide the dice on the felt. sliding usually works best with worn dice on old table felts.

Quote: AlanMendelson

dice setting, and a controlled throw is not cheating. don't even suggest it is.

I will "suggest" whatever I want, Alan.

Quote: alanMendelson

A dead cat bounce? Do you mean a light toss so that the dice hit the table once and do not move, or, the dice are thrown lightly so they are trapped under the pyramids and do not bounce? here the key is did the dice fly in the air, and hit the back wall and table surface. if you can throw the dice lightly so they hit the table just under the pyramids and are trapped there it is a legal throw. if you mean the dice are thrown lightly, hit the table and stop dead but do not hit the back wall it is a "no roll."

Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.

No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.

The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome.

Quote: MrV

rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.

If the casino wants to allow human interaction in
throwing the dice, it gets what it gets. If they want
total control, have a machine throw them. Of
course nobody would want to play, but oh well..

First 6-5 BJ is introduced and the low limit players continue to play. Can 4-5 Craps be far behind? Quick Josie, call my patent
attorney !

Quote: buzzpaff

First 6-5 BJ is introduced and the low limit players continue to play.

Ask your average player what 6/5 means for the game
and he has no idea. Its that ignorance that the casino
depends on for its livelihood.

Mr. V you are trying to change the law yourself when you say that travelling in the air is the same as being slid on the table surface. Here's how you put it:

"Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.
No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.
The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome."

This is absolutely wrong. You are trying to rewrite the rules. I suggest you take this up yourself with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Let them tell you.

In the meantime, I did a video of a demonstration of what dice sliding is. Here it is along with explanations of what is legal and what isn't. Suggest all you want, but you are wrong.

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

There is no crime here, and I'm disgusted at the number of people suggesting otherwise.

Capping bets is cheating. Trading cards at blackjack is cheating. Swapping in loaded dice is cheating. What do all of these have in common? It is blatantly obvious to even someone unfamiliar with the game that this is breaking the rules and attempting to defraud the casino. No one is going to think "hey, I'm going to try something different this time", and cap a bet, and oops, turns out it's a felony. It's obvious.

But this? People "try" to get certain numbers in craps all the time. This is usually by superstitious means - think positive thoughts, hand the dice to the hot chick, be sure the dice are warm, whatever nonsense - but it's completely natural for someone to go "hey, maybe if I throw them differently, they'll come up the way I want". After all, they're right! Doing something completely natural should not be a felony.

If the crew doesn't like the way you're shooting, it's their responsibility to void the roll and tell you to cut it out. If they think you're trying to get away with something they don't like repeatedly, or using means of distraction, it's their responsibility to stop you from playing. If these people were betting big enough to win $145k in just seven rolls, Wynn has zero excuse for not paying attention to how they roll. "Oh, but they distracted us" ... grow up. It's your job to not be distracted, and you can afford to have lots of people watching action this big. "But we bend the rules for high rollers" ... then you're taking a calculated risk, and have no one else to blame when it backfires.

Was this incident the idle experimentation of a clueless newbie? No, of course not. But if an action shouldn't be a felony for a clueless newbie, the same action shouldn't be a felony for experienced players trying to take the casino for everything they can. Dreams of taking the casino for a load of cash are what Vegas was built on.

If I were a recreational player, this would definitely make me less likely to play at the Wynn in the future. But I'm not, so I'll continue to take their money - legally and ethically - and I'll just be even happier about doing so.

Quote: AlanMendelson

sharp edges on new dice make it difficult if not impossible to slide the dice on the felt. sliding usually works best with worn dice on old table felts.

Something that is under casino control though I'm sure these were expert sliders. I expect camera tapes will show view-blockers or distraction moves.

I once lobbed the dice and had what has been referred to as a dead cat bounce, ie, they just hit the base of the wall and stayed put, no bounce at all. It was not intended or practiced but it was a lob, not a slide. I think we've all had tosses that on camera would look as if we were drunk when we were not. Sometimes the dice just go wild.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Mr. V you are trying to change the law yourself when you say that travelling in the air is the same as being slid on the table surface. Here's how you put it:

"Properly done, a dead cat bounce does not tumble uncontrollably; rather it stays the same orientation throughout; this derandomizes the result, and by definition IS cheating.
No different than a slide, except you are moving through the air, not on the felt.
The test should be did the dice tumble and go off axis sufficiently to allow a truly random outcome."

This is absolutely wrong. You are trying to rewrite the rules. I suggest you take this up yourself with the Nevada Gaming Commission. Let them tell you.

In the meantime, I did a video of a demonstration of what dice sliding is. Here it is along with explanations of what is legal and what isn't. Suggest all you want, but you are wrong.

http://alanbestbuys.com/id139.html

Alan, Alan ... you've annointed yourself as an expert on dice sliding.

OK, I'll go along with it ...

The "test" I posit is valid.

The issue is whether the dice toss or slide derandomizes the result.

It really shouldn't matter HOW this happens, Alan.

A non-random result comes from both dice sliding and a dead cat bounce toss, assuming both are properly executed by the shooter.

I believe you claim that so long as the dice are airborne, then it is legal; I say "Why would that matter?"

You suggest that proof that your argument is correct is found in the rules of the Nevada Gambling Commission.

Funny, the only arguably relevant references to the issue can be inferred from the statutes, NRS 465 et seq.; I saw nothing on point in the regulations.

So ...

NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:

1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:

(a) The result of a game

_____________


NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.


_______________

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:


7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.

____________


I found nothing else in Nevada law on point; my research is admittedly cursory, and recreational / whimsical; I would welcome any corrections and supplementations which you, as a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, can provide.

Indeed, your directive that I look to the rules of the Nevada Gaming Commission implies that YOU yourself can cite this absent proof: I encourage you to do so.

But I am pretty certain you cannot.

One need not have a keen legal mind to note that the above statutory scheme is a sieve.

Dice are NOT specifically referred to; there are no regulations which ascribe criminal penalties to particular dice tossing methods.

Dice sliding, dice setting: either allow them both, or prohibit them both.

Both involve an intent to manipulate the dice in order to affect the elements of chance.

Look Mr. V... I did all of that work about the legality of dice when I was a reporter at KCAL Channel 9, the CBS station in L.A. As part of my duties as being the business reporter, I also covered gaming. One of the reasons why a lot of time was spent on craps was because (probably) half the newsroom played craps, and we would have weekend jaunts to Vegas. We all got into investigating dice setting, etc.

If you read my articles on my website you will see the exact quotes from the NGC's chief investigator Keith Copher (now retired). Plus, I interviewed gaming regulators in other states with craps including Michigan. I report what I found. I'm not telling you what I think, I'm telling you what I found out.

So, find out for yourself. Call the NGC and ask them.

I got into this argument once before... with people who called dice settiing cheating. That's BS, period. Dice setting is an accepted part of the game as far as the NGC sees it. However, casinos have every right to decide who they do business with, and if they don't want dice setters and if they don't want dice setting, they can make those rules. But the NGC won't arrest you for dice setting.

Dice sliding is a different issue. The NGC will tell you dice sliding is illegal.

If you want to campaign for the legalization of dice sliding be my guest. But after my own test tonight at home, let me warn you that if you open a casino that allows dice sliding, I will be first in line at your craps pit.

Quote: AlanMendelson

If you want to campaign for the legalization of dice sliding be my guest.

You misread my agenda.

I hope to criminalize dice setting.

Your article was a "poof piece."

C'mon.

Who cares what his opinion is?

WHAT IS THE LAW?

Cite the statute, the regulation, or the court case interpreting same.

That is the only relevant inquiry.

Quote: EvenBob

If the casino wants to allow human interaction in
throwing the dice, it gets what it gets.

If gamblers want human interaction in throwing the dice....
...they gets pit bosses telling them that they can't run the game over the house.

Quote: MrV

Both involve an intent to manipulate the dice in order to affect the elements of chance.

Once the casino allows a player to touch the dice,
it cannot dictate how the player handles the dice.
There's no way to enforce it.

Quote: Paigowdan

If gamblers want human interaction in throwing the dice....
...they gets pit bosses telling them that they can't run the game over the house.

They can't stop it, the really good setters are
so fast they're undetectable. Just like the best
card counters.

MrV you just ended the discussion when you wrote: "I hope to criminalize dice setting."

Okay, I'm sure everyone will want to belly up to a craps table to watch the dealer throw the dice.

Oh, as a matter of fact, in California you can watch the dealer turn over playing cards... and they call that California Craps. And it has been failing miserably in one casino after another.

Like I said, if you doubt the current regulations ask the NGC yourself.

How come the Wiz hasn't weighed in on this, I'm
sure he has an opinion.

Quote: fivespot

There is no crime here, and I'm disgusted at the number of people suggesting otherwise.

Yes there is if dice were slid.

Quote: fivespot

Capping bets is cheating. Trading cards at blackjack is cheating. Swapping in loaded dice is cheating.

And so is dice sliding. So add it to your list of cheating no-no's.

Quote: fivespot

But this? People "try" to get certain numbers in craps all the time. This is usually by superstitious means - think positive thoughts, hand the dice to the hot chick, be sure the dice are warm, whatever nonsense - but it's completely natural for someone to go "hey, maybe if I throw them differently, they'll come up the way I want". After all, they're right! Doing something completely natural should not be a felony.

Says who? Practice bank robbery enough, it also becomes natural for the practitioner.
What is completely natural to a criminal is usually a felony.
What is completely natural for an honest person almost never is.
This applies everywhere - including a casino house.

Quote: fivespot

]If the crew doesn't like the way you're shooting, it's their responsibility to void the roll and tell you to cut it out.

So you're saying it is certainly not the dice slider's responsibility - or any player's responsibility - to follow such thing as gaming laws or house rules of play.
If the crew misses something criminal, it doesn't make it legal or all right.
Remember - surveillance rules, and can call both the floor and the cops.

Quote: fivespot

If they think you're trying to get away with something they don't like repeatedly, or using means of distraction, it's their responsibility to stop you from playing.

You would think so.
But if Casino cheats still happen to be cheating for a while longer - and committing even more gaming crimes, it just makes them even more guilty, not less.

Quote: fivespot

If these people were betting big enough to win $145k in just seven rolls, Wynn has zero excuse for not paying attention to how they roll.

They apparently paid enough attention to file suit against these cheaters.
In fact, they made how they rolled or slid the dice their very case.

Quote: fivespot

"Oh, but they distracted us" ... grow up. It's your job to not be distracted, and you can afford to have lots of people watching action this big. "But we bend the rules for high rollers" ... then you're taking a calculated risk, and have no one else to blame when it backfires.

Deliberate distraction to hide a crime doesn't make the crime more legal. In fact, the action of attempted concealment increases guilt ("Knowledge of its criminality") and points to it.
In fact, trying to conceal a crime adds weight to the prosecution - they can say "Now look - they made deliberate efforts to conceal the crime precisely because they knew they were committing a crime - and were trying to hide it!"

Quote: fivespot

Was this incident the idle experimentation of a clueless newbie?

$700,000 in dice action at the Wynn with the tricky and advanced technique of dice sliding.
Perhaps a newbie to values and ethics....

Quote: fivespot

No, of course not. But if an action shouldn't be a felony for a clueless newbie, the same action shouldn't be a felony for experienced players trying to take the casino for everything they can.

Ignorance is no excuse of the law, or a defense for committing a crime.
Anyone could say, "I don't read the papers or have an education, - or just didn't know it was illegal - so I didn't know that bank robbery or casino cheating was somehow illegal! Okay, so then I am innocent! And I was just trying to pay my bills for my lifestyle, you see..." (On a Mercedes and a four-bedroom ranch house.)

Quote: fivespot

Dreams of taking the casino for a load of cash are what Vegas was built on.

But not at gun point, or by cheating.
Depends on how you implement your dreams.
Everyone has the American dream.
Ivy League University Tuition is also paid by the American dream to get to the point of "living large."

Quote: fivespot

If I were a recreational player, this would definitely make me less likely to play at the Wynn in the future.

I myself am a recreational player, - and it makes me MORE likely to play at a place that jettisons theives, cheats, and assorted other dirtbags.
In fact, I played and ate dinner at the Wynn tonight. $10 craps while my wife played slots - then later a dinner at Wing Lei Restaurant in a private dining room there, paid for by the CEO of DEQ Gaming Systems Earle Hall, along with Bill "Billy Woo" Walsh, among six other casino executives. We discussed Pai Gow Poker, New Jersey/Atlantic City licensing, the real hiostory of Pai Gow Poker as it spread out of the card rooms into a casino-banked game, and EZ Pai Gow, - but we did not touch this thread. You don't want to get a bunch of casino executives, former dealers and floormen discussing casino cheats and casino gamblers' general attitude. "Casino Cop Paigowdan" don't have shit on these old school casino house boys. And no, Joe Pesci did not make an appearance with a tire iron to applause, it is not like you think here. We just didn't go there.

Quote: fivespot

But I'm not, so I'll continue to take their money - legally and ethically - and I'll just be even happier about doing so.

So as long as it is ethically. I'm incredulous based on the sentiments and attitudes I here around here..."It's legal IF you can get away with it, as there is no such thing as a crime against those EVIL casinos, - and if caught, use any argument to justify the crimes."

Quote: Paigowdan

- and it makes me MORE likely to play at a place that jettisons theives, cheats, and assorted other dirtbags.

But Dan, to you a cheat and a dirtbag is anybody
who's an AP, even tho they're not breaking any laws.
But when a casino does whatever it likes, bends or
breaks or overlooks the rules, you think thats just
fine. Weird, huh.

Quote: rxwine

Who here, if you threw a pair a dice, and you yourself noticed one remained flat and slid without hitting the end of the table would call yourself out if the casino let it go unnoticed and you won quite a bit of money?

You would likely to be beat up by the other players who won on your bet. I have seen first timers almost drop the dice, where one die lands about 2 feet from their hand. I have actually never seen someone call a "no roll" if the dice stayed inside the table. They threaten a lot, but usually the player compensates.

Quote: EvenBob

But Dan, to you a cheat and a dirtbag is anybody
who's an AP, even tho they're not breaking any laws.
But when a casino does whatever it likes, bends or
breaks or overlooks the rules, you think thats just
fine. Weird, huh.

No it isn't.
AP's who play by the house rules and laws are fine with us. Set a Pai Gow hand in a brilliant way, and I'll pay you cash right out of the rack.
But hole-carders or Card counters go to Roulette or go home or to jail in some cirsumstances.
"Sorry - and thanks for playing. Love you, but go to Roulette." Then THEY get nasty when backed off, which is the most polite action.
Dice sliders and bet cappers get worse.

It's unreal.

Gamblers walk into a casino honestly thinking they can do or say anything like, talk to the most polite and veteran dealers like they're absolute dog sh]t thinking they can get them fired for calling a seven-out without giving a damn, only to get outraged when told that their behaviour is out-of-bounds (truly lacking in home training for lack of a better description).

When getting arrested and cuffed by Henderson PD (Police Department), they will honestly say either (happened twice in a month here, forget about the Wynn):
1. "But...I don't want to get arrested" (crying, and finally waking up...) OR
2. "Hey! You're supposed to provide customer service! This is not customer service!"
While in handcuffs at a casino's rear entrance for police pick-up.

Spending a night or a week in an urban jail/detention center like Riker's Island (NY) or CCCF (Las Vegas) is a lot rougher than being told "okay, you're done for the night."
The urban Criminal Detention Center is now the back rooming you'll get as a casino cheat, and in order to end up there, you have to reasonably be considered a dirtbag in the eyes of the Police and society, - screw the floorman's opinion - or anyone here at this forum. Some time in a cage with a town of savages looking at your butt, it doesn't matter what the $7 an hour dealer of the $120 a day floorman thinks.

Surveillance tape played to the judge and jury is tough to argue.

Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules, and that's a lot - but a lot of the casino cheating crap that gamblers justify with a straight face - at least at this forum - is illegal.

Get backed off a game - and be fine with it.
But an arrest or a civil lawsuit is something.

A week in a municipal jail and a criminal record for life really sucks. So does a $700,000 lawsuit from Steve Wynn.
Expect pity from burnt-out dealers, floormen, or policemen who honestly don't look at casino cheating as some sort of a "valid and non-dirtbag activity?"

Not going to happen, except on an Internet forum in cyberspace.

Not in a real casino pit.

Quote: Paigowdan

Card counting is not illegal - though it is against casino house rules

But its not, Dan. Nowhere in any casino rulebook
is it written down that card counting is against
the rules. Its not tolerated, its not against the
rules. Its not written in the rulebook that excessive
flatulence is against the rules, but its not tolerated
either.