Ace2
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:20:30 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post

That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the table
It’s all about making that GTA
billryan
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:34:15 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post

That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the table
link to original post




Short term, it can. Making almost any craps bet with a match play coupon is +EV.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AxelWolf
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:38:39 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post

That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the table
link to original post

A match play , good Mail and a 100% loss rebate won't negate the house edge??? Your much better at math than me, but I'll stick stick to my nethanderal math abilities and pocket the cash from such things when available.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:38:46 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post

That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the table
link to original post

A match play , good Mail and a 100% loss rebate won't negate the house edge??? You are much better at math than me, but I'll stick stick to my nethanderal math abilities and pocket the cash from such things when available.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AlanMendelson
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:53:28 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post



Free bet coupons, match play coupons, promo chips all are positive expectation.
Ace2
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:07:04 PM permalink
I need someone to teach me how to get all these comps. Seriously.

I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t

So I quit even bothering with it, even though I now play at $100 level or higher. Am I doing something wrong ? Am I supposed to periodically remind pit bosses to comp me stuff ?

A friend of mine gets mail offers from cosmopolitan. Generally the free hotel nights will be midweek and only one night. Useless.

Regarding match plays: so they’ll send me several hundred of them ? 100% loss rebate…really ?

I should clarify that I’m not much of a coupon clipper. If the casino wants to comp me something valuable such as : “your room is comped here whenever you’d like to come” then it’s worth it. But I’m not going to jump though hoops for a free meal or something like that

Also, I’m going to stay/eat where I want irrespective of comps, so I maybe I’m not seeing the juice as worth the squeeze. I know some people really get off on comps…maybe I just need a comp instructor
It’s all about making that GTA
Ace2
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:11:29 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

Most of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
link to original post



Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.

tuttigym
link to original post



Free bet coupons, match play coupons, promo chips all are positive expectation.
link to original post

True but do they add up to anything material?
It’s all about making that GTA
Vegasrider
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:24:25 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

I need someone to teach me how to get all these comps. Seriously.

I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t


link to original post



Come to Reno. I Have a friend who flies in from Connecticut a couple of times a year. $10-50 BJ player, he gets as many nights as he wants from several properties.
unJon
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:28:04 PM permalink
I get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AlanMendelson
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:28:49 PM permalink
Ace you are correct in your assumptions.

First, table game players get less in comps and free play and promos than slot and video poker players get.

Can the free play and coupons that you get as a table player add up to anything substantial? In reality, no.

When I was a 7 Stars player at Caesars I'd frequently get offers such as $2500 of free play for slots and video poker. But I'd rarely get anything for craps.

Once -- and I do mean ONCE -- I got a $500 free play chip, and ONCE I got ten $100 chips.

Both times the chips were "live" meaning you could rebet them till lost.

But in all my years with Caesars that's all I ever got for table play.
Ace2
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:45:50 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

I get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
link to original post

That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?
It’s all about making that GTA
unJon
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January 27th, 2022 at 4:50:21 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: unJon

I get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
link to original post

That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?
link to original post



Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.

Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.

When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
Ace2
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January 27th, 2022 at 5:00:48 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: Ace2

Quote: unJon

I get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
link to original post

That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?
link to original post



Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.

Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.

When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
link to original post

Good info. And I did recently open a credit line though I haven’t yet been back to use it.

Another question on comps: I’ve read about comps on theoretical loss and actual loss. Let’s say you had a major loss: how do you prove it?
It’s all about making that GTA
unJon
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January 27th, 2022 at 5:04:41 PM permalink
Quote: Ace2

Quote: unJon

Quote: Ace2

Quote: unJon

I get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
link to original post

That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?
link to original post



Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.

Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.

When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
link to original post

Good info. And I did recently open a credit line though I haven’t yet been back to use it.

Another question on comps: I’ve read about comps on theoretical loss and actual loss. Let’s say you had a major loss: how do you prove it?
link to original post



Always play rated with your card. If you are playing black, the pit is almost certainly tracking your cash in and cash out amount. Make sure they see it when you color up.

And obviously it’s even easier if you play by drawing the marker. As they know how much you owe them back.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
odiousgambit
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January 28th, 2022 at 3:59:50 AM permalink
two things:

Definitions: Previously determined from posters who use these terms.

A Loser is someone who lost some money at the casino

A Looser is someone who lost a lot of money at the casino!

It's kind of like the Hodler thing

The big picture of +EV play using match play etc:

The match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.

On the other hand, it is possible to get over-comped. In fact it is typical for an AP to get comped while doing his thing because the casino has to assume all players are not APs until they find out otherwise. So the AP plays out his comps at what would be normally -EV activity, to get the money.

I am not an AP except that I have often been over-comped. This has been enough to make my visits to the casino +EV, except for travel expense. Overall this makes me a Loser ... but not a Looser!

Cheap entertainment is what I call it.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
AlanMendelson
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Thanked by
DeMango
January 28th, 2022 at 8:28:39 AM permalink
From Oxford Languages (not from posters who fabricate their own definitions):

adjective
comparative adjective: looser
1.
not firmly or tightly fixed in place; detached or able to be detached.
"a loose tooth"
Similar:
not fixed in place
not secure
insecure
unsecured
unattached
detached
unfastened
wobbly
rickety
unsteady
movable
Opposite:
secure
tight
2.
(of a garment) not fitting tightly or closely.
"she slipped into a loose T-shirt and shorts"
DeMango
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:11:01 AM permalink
Casting pearls before Swine Alan? Or "Uncircumcised Philistines" as King David would call them.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
AlanMendelson
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:16:54 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Casting pearls before Swine Alan? Or "Uncircumcised Philistines" as King David would call them.
link to original post



I guess so. On this forum if an AP says it, it must be true.
billryan
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:29:19 AM permalink
Under the bizarro protocols that this forum operates under, calling someone a loser will result in a short vacation, especially if that loser is offended and pms the powers that be.
Evidently calling them loosers is acceptable.
It seems that APs understand that beating the marketing department is a good way to turn the tables on the casino while loosers like to sit around and question how such a thing is possible. Don't be a looser.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
AlanMendelson
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:33:27 AM permalink
THERE seems to be a reasoning for anything THEY'RE saying to protect THEIR image.
tuttigym
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January 29th, 2022 at 1:31:15 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?

Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?

** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.

tuttigym
AlanMendelson
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January 29th, 2022 at 1:46:19 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?

Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?

** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.

tuttigym
link to original post



Let me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.

I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.

I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.

I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.

My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
100xOdds
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January 29th, 2022 at 3:04:50 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Let me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.

I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7.
I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.

link to original post

many moons ago, those freeplay chips used to be in play till you lost.
the current version of lose the chips even if you win SUCKS!
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
tuttigym
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January 29th, 2022 at 8:26:51 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Let me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.

I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.

I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.

I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.

My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
link to original post


OK excellent use of the "free" money showing great discipline, but of course, the subsequent play becomes the question which is rhetorical........ My second comment regarding the post is that the original post is directed to MrAxel. Hopefully, he will be forthcoming.

tuttigym
AlanMendelson
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January 29th, 2022 at 8:50:05 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AlanMendelson

Let me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.

I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.

I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.

I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.

My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
link to original post


OK excellent use of the "free" money showing great discipline, but of course, the subsequent play becomes the question which is rhetorical........ My second comment regarding the post is that the original post is directed to MrAxel. Hopefully, he will be forthcoming.

tuttigym
link to original post



I think he'll give you the same answer. An advantage play has a certain definition. His example might be different but all advantage plays share similar conditions.
AxelWolf
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January 30th, 2022 at 2:04:26 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?

Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?

** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.

tuttigym
link to original post

Alan answered the question quite well. There are many different scenarios that offer the player a +EV opportunity while playing craps, finding them and figuring out how to exploit them is the hard part.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tuttigym
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January 30th, 2022 at 7:33:38 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?

Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?

tuttigym
AlanMendelson
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January 30th, 2022 at 10:52:08 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?

Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?

tuttigym
link to original post



Your assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.

If I wanted to treat casino Gaming as a business I'd scour newspapers for $5 match plays, I'd run to casinos that offered free play with a sign up bonus, I'd only bet my $5 free play offers. If some +EV special offer came around such as bet $1000 and get $1000 loss rebate I'd consider it. If Blackjacks paid 2 to 1 for 12 hours I'd jump, if hard 8s paid 12 to 1 I'd go crazy. This is what APs do.

Frankly I think these opportunities are too few and I doubt they're making a true living at it. But if they're making $200 a week good for them! Frankly if they made $100 a week that's great.

I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.

You have to decide what you want.

If APs are happy playing nothing more than abandoned multipliers on video poker games good for them. That's their shtick. I choose not to hunt for them but if I see one I'll play it because I understand the advantage it offers.

I'll also pick up abandoned tickets. Arrest me. But I dont hunt for abandoned credits on machines.

By the way, I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.

Everyone has their niche and forte.

Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
tuttigym
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January 30th, 2022 at 11:19:54 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Your assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.


Thanks for the affirmation and the subsequent honesty.
Mr. Axel, do you want to comment??

tuttigym
OnceDear
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January 30th, 2022 at 11:35:57 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?

Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?

tuttigym
link to original post



Quote: tuttigym


Thanks for the affirmation and the subsequent honesty.
Mr. Axel, do you want to comment??

tuttigym
link to original post

Tuttigym,
I find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
100xOdds
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January 30th, 2022 at 1:40:08 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.

I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.

Everyone has their niche and forte.

Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
link to original post

So you just play the lowest house edge games in the casino?
How is an Advantage Shopper different from a smart gambler?

Also, you said you're not an AP.
You play for excitement and entertainment being an AS.

then you say you're living well from that AS career and the plush retirement fund it gave you.
So you made a living being an AS?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
tuttigym
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January 30th, 2022 at 1:56:50 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

I find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
link to original post


OnceDear: Your suggestion that I "underestimated" Mr.AxelWolf is mistaken. He made a statement in response to my question. My response was a direct diagnosis of fact that there was no actual gambling "advantage" of play regarding the game itself and without the use of "free" money his reference to "advantage play" is really non-existent. To me, the term "advantage" infers the player has the "upper hand" over the house which according to most here at the forum just does not happen. Virtually everyone I know that receives free "table play" uses it and more to enhance their gaming experience.

Your answer in his stead has given him a nice out. Did you underestimate MrWolf??

tuttigym
AlanMendelson
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January 30th, 2022 at 2:40:33 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AlanMendelson

I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.

I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.

Everyone has their niche and forte.

Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
link to original post

So you just play the lowest house edge games in the casino?
How is an Advantage Shopper different from a smart gambler?

Also, you said you're not an AP.
You play for excitement and entertainment being an AS.

then you say you're living well from that AS career and the plush retirement fund it gave you.
So you made a living being an AS?
link to original post



I think I'm a smart gambler but I'm not an advantage player even though I do use advantage plays when they present themselves.

True APs treat casino gaming as a business. I don't. Just as I don't play golf to earn money.

As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.

To tuttigym: frankly I dont understand what point you're driving at? And I don't understand why you're being critical of what others do. However, if you are questioning claims I think you have a right to do that as we dont want to see false claims sway unknowing consumers
OnceDear
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January 30th, 2022 at 3:13:25 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: OnceDear

I find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
link to original post


OnceDear: Your suggestion that I "underestimated" Mr.AxelWolf is mistaken. He made a statement in response to my question. My response was a direct diagnosis of fact that there was no actual gambling "advantage" of play regarding the game itself and without the use of "free" money his reference to "advantage play" is really non-existent. To me, the term "advantage" infers the player has the "upper hand" over the house which according to most here at the forum just does not happen. Virtually everyone I know that receives free "table play" uses it and more to enhance their gaming experience.

Your answer in his stead has given him a nice out. Did you underestimate MrWolf??

tuttigym
link to original post



Hmmmmmm I think it's indeed down to the definition of advantage play or advantage player.
I assert that it has nothing to do with any game or the playing thereof. [advantage] 'Play' in this context iis a noun meaning '[advantageous] situation' and an advantage player takes advantage of that situation. Absolutely nothing needed from gambling. A bit of gambling or machine play MAY be involved in creating or monetizing the advantage.
The situation is usually a marketing generosity, or game flaw, but there are others.

I'll give you an example of a typical advantage play. Actually done by myself at my online casino this month. It was a tiny 'play' but the principle still applies.

The offer was "Credit £150 and get £10 free play on a certain slot" No other restrictions

So. Where was the advantage?

I credit £150 to my account. Play my £10 of free spins, netting £8 and then just withdrew my £158

I really couldn't lose.

I had an advantage over the house. The game had an advantage over me that cost me nothing.

Teeny, Tiny advantage of whatever the RTP was on that slot. Call it 80% of £10 that cost me nothing

The slot game was -EV. Playing it was just a means to an end converting a non-negotiable freebie into hard cash.

Advantage players Play the system, defeat the casino. Seldom the game.

System players, goal setters, hit and runners. They have no advantage. No advantageous situation to exploit
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
100xOdds
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January 30th, 2022 at 8:05:45 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.

ok, Googled:
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"

Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'

This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
AlanMendelson
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January 30th, 2022 at 9:35:43 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AlanMendelson

As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.

ok, Googled:
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"

Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'

This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
link to original post



LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
OnceDear
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January 31st, 2022 at 1:14:59 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson


LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
link to original post

Would an example be an 'extreme couponer"?
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
100xOdds
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January 31st, 2022 at 10:58:40 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AlanMendelson

As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.

ok, Googled:
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"

Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'

This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
link to original post



LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
link to original post

now i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
AlanMendelson
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January 31st, 2022 at 11:47:05 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: AlanMendelson

As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.

ok, Googled:
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"

Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'

This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
link to original post



LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
link to original post

now i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?
link to original post



Here ya go. Not one mention of casinos. But I could have pointed out that inflation has reduced 3:2 Blackjack to 6:5 Blackjack, and 8/5 Bonus Video Poker has been reduced to 7/5 Bonus Video Poker.

https://youtu.be/MPI2bkc9i3E
100xOdds
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January 31st, 2022 at 4:50:52 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: 100xOdds

now i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?
link to original post

Here ya go. Not one mention of casinos.
But I could have pointed out that inflation has reduced 3:2 Blackjack to 6:5 Blackjack, and 8/5 Bonus Video Poker has been reduced to 7/5 Bonus Video Poker.

https://youtu.be/MPI2bkc9i3E
link to original post

thx

In 3rd world countries:
i've seen 8/5 bp but all quads pay 30 instead of extra for baby quads and Aces.
I've also seen 7/5 bp but all quads pay 35.
both are 98.5% return.

as for inflation, that's why i like shopping at Costco.
nothing is over 15% profit.
sure, there's inflation but i know i'm not being reamed by Costco
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
ChumpChange
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January 31st, 2022 at 10:57:32 PM permalink
I'm trying a new strategy. DP + 1 DC, then replace with PL + 1 Come on 1st loss of either (replace lost bet with new bet, repeat same bet on a win/push). Reset for new shooter.
AxelWolf
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February 1st, 2022 at 2:20:39 AM permalink
Quote: Ace2

I need someone to teach me how to get all these comps. Seriously.

I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t

So I quit even bothering with it, even though I now play at $100 level or higher. Am I doing something wrong ? Am I supposed to periodically remind pit bosses to comp me stuff ?

A friend of mine gets mail offers from cosmopolitan. Generally the free hotel nights will be midweek and only one night. Useless.

Regarding match plays: so they’ll send me several hundred of them ? 100% loss rebate…really ?

I should clarify that I’m not much of a coupon clipper. If the casino wants to comp me something valuable such as : “your room is comped here whenever you’d like to come” then it’s worth it. But I’m not going to jump though hoops for a free meal or something like that

Also, I’m going to stay/eat where I want irrespective of comps, so I maybe I’m not seeing the juice as worth the squeeze. I know some people really get off on comps…maybe I just need a comp instructor
link to original post

Gaining an advantage at craps isn't easy, it's not as if you can roll into any old casino and there's an obvious clear advantage to be had. Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

Here's the thing, anyone that has the information, knowledge, and discipline to do this realizes they can make a lot more money for much less effort on other things related to Advantage play.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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February 1st, 2022 at 2:38:12 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

I agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
link to original post


So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?

Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?

tuttigym
link to original post



Your assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.

If I wanted to treat casino Gaming as a business I'd scour newspapers for $5 match plays, I'd run to casinos that offered free play with a sign up bonus, I'd only bet my $5 free play offers. If some +EV special offer came around such as bet $1000 and get $1000 loss rebate I'd consider it. If Blackjacks paid 2 to 1 for 12 hours I'd jump, if hard 8s paid 12 to 1 I'd go crazy. This is what APs do.

Frankly I think these opportunities are too few and I doubt they're making a true living at it. But if they're making $200 a week good for them! Frankly if they made $100 a week that's great.

I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.

You have to decide what you want.

If APs are happy playing nothing more than abandoned multipliers on video poker games good for them. That's their shtick. I choose not to hunt for them but if I see one I'll play it because I understand the advantage it offers.

A dedicated knowledgeable multiplayer hunter/ vulture/ sniper, or whatever you call it would make a hell of a lot more than a few hundred dollars a week, one could make hundreds a day on average if they're really going for it.

Most of the advantage players that have been doing this for a while have multiple plays in their toolbox, vulturing is just a small part of that toolbox. Most of the guys that I know don't even bother with that stuff all that often unless they just happened to be walking by or there is something new and Juicy out there that hasn't been discovered by the masses yet.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tuttigym
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February 1st, 2022 at 8:38:16 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

A dedicated knowledgeable multiplayer hunter/ vulture/ sniper, or whatever you call it would make a hell of a lot more than a few hundred dollars a week, one could make hundreds a day on average if they're really going for it.

Most of the advantage players that have been doing this for a while have multiple plays in their toolbox, vulturing is just a small part of that toolbox. Most of the guys that I know don't even bother with that stuff all that often unless they just happened to be walking by or there is something new and Juicy out there that hasn't been discovered by the masses yet.
link to original post


I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?
2. In order to receive the "big bucks" free play, what level of play is required?
3. There is a suggestion within this post that "free play" is basically a non-factor in gambling and that one might infer, to that end, that AP really does not exist with some very small exceptions. So why the chest beating and huffing and puffing about "Hey, I AM AN AP."?

What you have confirmed with this part of the discussion is that when it comes to table games, the advantage is unmistakably with the House.

tuttigym
tuttigym
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February 1st, 2022 at 8:45:00 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

The match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.


This one paragraph sums it up and provides real clarity and transparency to whole AP discussion which states, IMO, AP is a myth.

Thank you Mr. OG.

tuttigym
tuttigym
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February 1st, 2022 at 9:05:15 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Alan answered the question quite well. There are many different scenarios that offer the player a +EV opportunity while playing craps, finding them and figuring out how to exploit them is the hard part.
link to original post


IMO he actually did not. Suppose that offer was from a casino that was 300+ miles from his home location and was only good within a particular and narrow time frame, would he rush out to claim his "prize"? Unlikely. I receive "free play" offers quite often, but my casino is over 400 miles away. There is "no free lunch" and there is no AP for me based on what this conversation has produced. I suspect that my situation is not unique within the Forum community and that when discussing AP offers, location and time are required for access, not actual play.

tuttigym
billryan
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February 1st, 2022 at 9:21:25 AM permalink
He's right. AP is a myth that doesn't exist in his worldview. I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time trying to convince him otherwise.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
tuttigym
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February 1st, 2022 at 9:22:28 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

To tuttigym: frankly I dont understand what point you're driving at? And I don't understand why you're being critical of what others do. However, if you are questioning claims I think you have a right to do that as we dont want to see false claims sway unknowing consumers
link to original post


Mr. Mendelson: I want to be clear, so please tell me what "point" you do not understand. I will elaborate or clarify To what criticism are you referring? I do want to criticize you for answering a question directed specifically to someone else. If someone were to direct a question to me, and someone else puts words in my mouth, I would be upset. The fact that he affirmed your answer is meaningless. He did not answer the question in his own words and thoughts. You are correct about the "false claims," and being an AP in a literal sense is a false claim.

tuttigym
odiousgambit
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February 1st, 2022 at 9:22:30 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Quote: odiousgambit

The match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.


This one paragraph sums it up and provides real clarity and transparency to whole AP discussion which states, IMO, AP is a myth.

Thank you Mr. OG.

tuttigym
link to original post

I do think it is the 'usual' situation

... and that's why the casinos do it. People can get remarkably sucked into it, this business of playing a losing game to get comps. Some smart people too.

But I don't agree with your last statement. It may be true that there are 100+ people of the type we are bemoaning for every bonafide AP, but they are real... the proof of which is the great efforts the casinos make to find these people.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
tuttigym
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February 1st, 2022 at 9:36:23 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

He's right. AP is a myth that doesn't exist in his worldview. I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time trying to convince him otherwise.
link to original post


Mr.billryan: My "worldview" questions anything my intellect does not believe. It seems your intellect accepts without questioning. My questions are providing clarity and conversation and participation. Those joing the conversation and participation apparently feel it is worth their time.

tuttigym
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