Can You Be Banned for Dice Control? Have Casinos Done This?

Quote: Ahigh

That show was taking too much of my time and wasn't paying a dime. On top of that, I was accused of having an axe to grind. Want to know what's on my mind? That you may never find. But I will agree some people on here are not too kind. After answering a question for the fourth and fifth time, it loses the aura of the sublime, and just seems to suck up all your time. So it's fine.

Quote: Ahigh

And half the reason I said that, is because it was a rhyme. Your conclusion is nearly a crime.

I love these recent Ahigh posts...LOL! :)


It reminds me of that famous "Moonlighting" scene where David Addison (Bruce Willis) talks in rhymes about a "man with a mole on his nose".

(Rhyming starts at 0:10)

Quote: Zcore13

I'm sure there a lot of researchers out there that have a website with a forum where if you don't agree with the premise you get kicked off.

The warmists most certainly do.

Quote: Beethoven9th

It reminds me of that famous "Moonlighting" scene where David Addison (Bruce Willis) talks in rhymes about a "man with a mole on his nose".

Geez, I loved that show. I wonder if its on DVD.

Yep, sure is!

http://www.amazon.com/Moonlighting-Seasons-1-Cybill-Shepherd/dp/B0007XBMA2/ref=pd_cp_mov_0/189-4237178-3322608

I used to love the show too. It got lame near the end, but the first 3 seasons or so were classic.

Speaking of moonlighting, why do they call it when you have a 2nd job "Moonlighting"?

Quote: Boz

Speaking of moonlighting, why do they call it when you have a 2nd job "Moonlighting"?

I always thought it was because most people work their primary jobs during the day and their second jobs at night (when the moon is out)? Who knows though.*shrug*

Hey -
we can get creative and come up with names for 2nd job moonlighting

1. Starlighting
2. Graveyarding
3. woving....(I like this one...)

etc.

Quote: AlanMendelson

This is where you cross the line. You are not a researcher. You are an advocate trying to prove your point under the guise of being a researcher.

You tell us you have a controlled shot, then you fall back on the "it's about having fun" or "I am researching" when you can't prove you have a controlled shot.

You tell us you know all about casino craps in Vegas and is "knowing all" the function of a researcher?

When you are a winner you are a great craps shooter, but when you lose it's all for fun and for research.

If you were more honest you would be more believable.

Your posts have become extremely irrelevant. But thanks for sharing your opinions anyway. FWIW I don't agree with a single thing you've said, which isn't surprising.

Quote: Zcore13

Exactly. I actually laughed out loud when I saw he thinks he's a "researcher".

We often laugh at things to make ourselves feel better. For the record, I have never laughed about what you do for a living.

Quote: Ahigh

We often laugh at things to make ourselves feel better. For the record, I have never laughed about what you do for a living.

You do craps research for a living? Since when. Does that pay well?

Quote: EvenBob

You do craps research for a living? Since when. Does that pay well?

No. I never even said I do anything related to craps for a living.

Quote: Ahigh

No. I never even said I do anything related to craps for a living.

Why are you home on a Sat night? Every craps table
in Vegas is open right now.

Quote: EvenBob

Why are you home on a Sat night? Every craps table
in Vegas is open right now.

I play on empty tables. I played and won today. But saturday night is not when I generally play, no. I left at 3:00pm and I was done before things got too busy. I normally would go sooner, but I had to rent a truck from home depot and move some furniture from my mother-in-law's house to the house here and pick up a day laborer from Star Nursery this morning while my wife was getting her hair done. Friday Saturday and Sunday are generally coupon liquidation days for me. I turned a $25 Gold Coast coupon into dinner after winning at the previous two stops. I found empty table time at Jerry's Nugget and El Cortez today. I had to do some watching others play to wait for the time when the table became empty.

I didn't gamble at Gold Coast because the good tables were full of players and the bouncy table was the only one open as it was getting later (busier).

I'm surprised you ask because I thought we already had this conversation. But maybe it wasn't you. I don't know.

Quote: Ahigh

But maybe it wasn't you. I don't know.

Not me. My experience in Vegas on Sat night is
there are empty tables on Sat night because
they're all open. You can find empty tables
everywhere.

My experience is that they are empty when I start until they start calling winners then people start throwing money in the tub.

I find the best play environment when the only distractions are vacuum cleaners and folks taking the money out of the slot machines.

Quote: petroglyph

I'm not entirely positive that the casinos aren't behind the dice schools? That would make sense to me. .

That's absolutely absurd.

I know some people who are very intelligent AP's(only play things they are very certain they have an edge) who absolutely believed at the "beginning" DI was possible and made decent and money and not from selling anything.

Quote: MrV

Me too!

The problem is, when they talk back all they say is what a fool I am and how they're going to take all my money.

Damned sadists.

Quit bashing slot machines, when played right you can gain an advantage.

Quote: Ahigh

That show was taking too much of my time and wasn't paying a dime

You didn't Try. and most of your time was spent arguing.

You should have just taken the stance early on that you didn't know if DI was possible and you only want to investigate. You were to... I'll be nice and say, FOCUSED on one thing and only One thing. I believe if there was a bag full of cash on the ground sitting next to a good craps table, you would walk right past the bag of cash just to play low limit craps.

One thing I do believe and respect, you were never trying to con anyone or sell some bullshit books or classes. BTW if someone is doing that making a few grand a weekend "GOD BLESS THEM" where do I sign up. They are not hurting me, in any way, shape or form

I still have not made up my mind on the possibility of DI. I have just not found anyone or thing to convince me its feasible/possible to make any serious money at this time.

Quote: MrV

He's made inconsistent statements, certainly.

But then, when one thinks one is a gambling god, I suppose anything goes.

Give him a break he has not been talking like that as of late. I'm not sure he ever did if im wrong please post some links. He may have inferred he was one of the most knowledgeable craps players, not sure however

Quote: AxelWolf

Give him a break he has not been talking like that as of late. I'm not sure he ever did if im wrong please post some links. He may have inferred he was one of the most knowledgeable craps players, not sure however

Ahigh has an impressive knowledge of craps, it's the way
he presents it that is sometimes annoying.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's absolutely absurd.

I know some people who are very intelligent AP's(only play things they are very certain they have an edge) who absolutely believed at the "beginning" DI was possible and made decent and money and not from selling anything.

I'm not sure I understand what your trying to say here?

I don't think anyone has stated AP craps is possible. I've only heard of ap as it relate's to slot's or bj.

Are you saying you know people who only believed in di at the beginning and made money without selling anything?

Your quote of my statement, then your reply "it's absurd". I'm an out of the box thinker. Don't you think that would be a clever way to get more people standing around craps tables thinking they can win?

Help me out here, rephrase it or something ok?

Part of what brought that thought up for me is. These schools and I don't know how many of them there are in Just Vegas, but several. They all seem to have students and hold schools year after year. I go to a lot of craps games and I just don't see people having monster rolls. It seems most people that I've seen win at all were getting lucky with variance. Most the people I see setting the dice aren't doing anything special either. I play at all different hours. I would think after all these graduated students I'd run into some of them. Where are all the grads at? All I'm seeing is people buying in and losing their buy in at the usual rate and then a new group buying in and repeat. I'm not seeing the casinos tapping people on the shoulder. The only people I've seen asked to leave a game were either really obnoxious or really drunk.

Lots of people have stated AP craps is possible, in a few different ways, 2 of them ways WERE... DI and Offers received( Offer part, Still Possible)

Yes I do know people that are very trustworthy (Friends) NOT SELLING ANYTHING as a matter a fact they kept it very quiet. They didn't want anyone to know anything. They made fairly good money from DI, over the course of a few years.(I was briefly involved but due to some personal issues I could not continue) When things changed they stopped. Things like the conditions of tables and being banned. Perhaps they just got lucky, They are convinced they had a significant edge with charted numbers way over what should be considered variance. They had data with a significant amount of rolls and time put in.

Monster rolls has nothing to do with DI, that's what fiction writers use to sell books and classes.

Yes Its great to be an out of the box thinker, I pride myself on that , however what your saying about casinos being behind DI classes is more of a conspiracy theorist type of thinking.

People have and do get 86'ed for only winning at craps. If I was offered a substantial amount of money to prove this, I would do so.

I think the classes being taught are teaching the wrong things.

THE GUYS YOU SEE
I would say that 99% of the people taking classes are there for a get rich scheme. Them type of guys don't have what it would take to be successful, Hours and hours of practice the right equipment and the focus and that may not even be enough. But they paid their money for lessons and they are dam well going to try it out, perhaps they are just convinced "they got IT". I guess I would compare it to a 16 year old boy getting his drivers licence on the first day. He thinks hes the best driver in the world and he knows it all. First time you put keys in his hands, He is roasting his tiers off the line, then doing 90 on the freeway,music cranked as loud as possible, all his friends in the back seat.(I did and i still believe I was the best diver around)

With that being said I don't think a significant amount of money can be made from DI at this time. I am not 1000% sure that everything was not just all pure coincidence.

@ AxelWolf,

I was referring to the wov forum when I said I didn't think anyone had claimed to be an AP craps player.
Maybe they have and I hadn't seen it. If so I'll freely admit being incorrect.

I'm not accusing casinos of surreptitiously running dice schools, it was more an example of what I find humorous.

As far as being a conspiracy theorist,

"We are just one Giant grey alien handing out Ameros in Roswell away,,,,,from every conspiracy theory known to man being proven correct" [zh]

Quote: petroglyph

@ AxelWolf,

I was referring to the wov forum when I said I didn't think anyone had claimed to be an AP craps player.
Maybe they have and I hadn't seen it. If so I'll freely admit being incorrect.

I'm not accusing casinos of surreptitiously running dice schools, it was more an example of what I find humorous.

As far as being a conspiracy theorist,

"We are just one Giant grey alien handing out Ameros in Roswell away,,,,,from every conspiracy theory known to man being proven correct" [zh]

WELL F*ck it took me 2 hrs to write that.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: petroglyph

@ AxelWolf,

I was referring to the wov forum when I said I didn't think anyone had claimed to be an AP craps player.
Maybe they have and I hadn't seen it. If so I'll freely admit being incorrect.

I'm not accusing casinos of surreptitiously running dice schools, it was more an example of what I find humorous.

As far as being a conspiracy theorist,

"We are just one Giant grey alien handing out Ameros in Roswell away,,,,,from every conspiracy theory known to man being proven correct" [zh]

WELL F*ck it took me 2 hrs to write that.

Now that...........is funny. Heck I thought you were agreeing with me? The part about wondering where all the great shooter's are and all, that's true. I was only kidding about the casinos running the dice seminars although it would be a good ploy, don't you think?

Quote: petroglyph

Part of what brought that thought up for me is. These schools and I don't know how many of them there are in Just Vegas, but several. They all seem to have students and hold schools year after year. I go to a lot of craps games and I just don't see people having monster rolls. It seems most people that I've seen win at all were getting lucky with variance. Most the people I see setting the dice aren't doing anything special either. I play at all different hours. I would think after all these graduated students I'd run into some of them. Where are all the grads at? All I'm seeing is people buying in and losing their buy in at the usual rate and then a new group buying in and repeat. I'm not seeing the casinos tapping people on the shoulder. The only people I've seen asked to leave a game were either really obnoxious or really drunk.

For what it's worth I agree with what petro describes that he sees.

I have to remind myself frequently that the Mr.V's, AlanMendelsons, and Zcore's don't watch craps play all that frequently.

I can believe that there might be a few folks who are winners with a shot. Let me just coin that, "WWS." Control or not, these WWS players I have yet to bump into. When I see someone winning good enough I think "this person might be ahead for lifetime" I will often ask. I can think of one person that I think might be a lifetime winner with over ten thousand of lifetime wins besides folks that are on forums, and he just bets max odds on everyone and gets lucky sometimes.

Most winners with a shot I would think are tourists without enough samples for the math to matter. The locals who play hours a day have a really hard time beating the math with any consistent strategy no matter how low the edge percentage is. And the people who practice at home for 99% of their throws and do 1% of their throws at the casino probably have the best chance to be a WWS no matter if what they are doing is working or not.

I've made the point before, but let me make it again. I could easily, with a single throw, turn my knowledge and experience and financial resources into a situation where I am a lifetime winner with a high degree of certainty. But just being a winner and having a shot doesn't prove anything at all, or else I would go and take one big chance that I could do that. I take bigger risks in the stock market (much bigger) that don't have anything to do with dice control, but are much more risky to my financial well being. I lost much more money trading silver just this year than I have lost in three years of playing craps, for example. Both were gambles, and neither really reflects on the ability to gain an edge in either activity; my ability? Yes. An ability, no.

But as far as just watching folks in the casino, it doesn't match up to the hype of what I see being offered in these dice classes. I read what I believe to be snake-oil-salesman sales pitches from generally more than one person who offers to teach how to play the game of craps. And I don't really know of anything that could even be taught to these folks that they couldn't learn for free just using the internet anyway. And then folks who have taken lots of classes who seem that all that they get out of it is a twisted belief system that they are better than they are, that would possibly lead to them exposing more money to some random shooter who they believe has a shot (for example, $204 across for one roll on someone who might look like they know what they are doing, and fart before the shoot on that shot, and screw it all up).

There's plenty of randomness in one event, and if you're not flat betting, you're generally gambling. But these classes really aren't super duper great on teaching math. They teach more about how to hold the dice and betting strategies with legs that have more than 1.0% edge per roll. And these are the guys who are supposed to be the best teachers out there.

But going back to the casino, I don't see the students who do so well that they can quit their jobs and move to Vegas and buy a house. Even when you could get a house for $75,000 with over 1,000 square feet a year ago or a little more. Guys who were moving here and buying houses weren't using gambling revenues to do it, they were getting jobs (that I know).

Reality doesn't match the stories of being able to generate revenue streams after going to a few classes.

And of course, why would someone who's so great at doing this stuff _NOT_ want to live in Vegas? That in and of itself is a big question.

I decided before I moved to Vegas I wanted to do craps stuff, and it took me a few years to get here. And it was a job that got me here, not a craps class.

And I've put in plenty of time to be able to do all this stuff, and I'm still losing. Probably the best evidence so far that the classes are something akin to teaching someone how to rock climb on Mars. In theory you could do it, but so many (real world) things are between you and doing that rock climbing. But go ahead and learn just in case you find yourself needing that skill.

Now, just to be sure, I do believe it may still be possible to AP craps play. I don't dismiss the possibility that I can do it and I am able to do it. But I slip into gambling mode myself, and that's one of my primary focuses to stop that part. But everyone has a real-world thing that interferes with the ability to use discipline and everything else to get it done.

The casino staff are there to encourage you to gamble. There are lots of factors standing in your way! Even the ridicule from folks on forums just like this one don't help one to be able to pull it off even if it is possible. Giving up is much easier to do.

But being able to quit your job to play craps full time is just not something that I see more than one person that seems likely that they are able to do it. And that one person isn't living in a multi-million dollar mansion and driving a $100,000 sports car. Two things that I have already been in the position to do before I ever put my focus on craps. And two things I would expect someone to be able to do if this DI thing were as legit as some would like you to believe. If it's legit, it's much harder than they want you to believe.

The 10% figure that heavy quoted I think is maybe a wee bit on the high side. Of course it could be that all those folks don't want to be associated with me because they don't want their cover blown. I could believe that; really I could. But I don't see these folks at all and they certainly don't seek me out to spread the word that DI works well enough to quit your job and just play craps and move to Vegas.

Quote: EvenBob

Why are you home on a Sat night? Every craps table
in Vegas is open right now.

Why am I up right now? Where am I going?

Ahigh,
Maybe the most logical post I have read from you. Except, and again only my opinion, you comment on EASILY making up for any and all losses with 1 throw really makes no sense unless you somehow believe you have an edge over the casino. And that is where all this leads back to. Months of arguments back and forth, suspensions, accusations that should have never been made about you and more....all of it because you believe you have an edge. And most of us believing you are full of shit on that point.

I am not saying either of us is right, but damn it, we would like to see why you believe that and what proof do you have? Otherwise you will always be known as just another loud mouth who thinks they can beat the game of craps. And that puts you in the same boat with the people you rightfully say are just con artists looking to take someones money. And I understand you owe neither myself or anyone else on here proof, but you also know what you are going to get back when you make statements like that.

Try to enjoy your Sunday!

Boz

I thought it just me who believed in DI, well, looks like I got a company. So what do we know so far? We know that there are two type of shots.
Shot A (true shot)
The origin of the shot based on solid fundamental principals such as momentum (yo-yo), law of energy conservation (dice weightlessness ). Dice stays on the axis,and no rules are violated. This shot is a closely guarded secret and only few clues are known
Shot B ( illegal )
Your humble servant developed this one,later it was "borrowed" by author # 1. It is based on a simple principle, if you slow the dice down it will become less random. The shot is time consuming, requires setting to avoid 7, well known and not accepted by most casinos.
NOW, what are we suppose to do? Abolish shot B and concentrate on shot A.

Quote: Boz

Months of arguments back and forth, suspensions, accusations that should have never been made about you and more....all of it because you believe you have an edge.

He is "investigating" to try to determine, via his own methodology, whether in fact it is in fact possible to become an AP at craps, to train oneself to have a demonstrable, replicable "edge."

He ain't there yet, although his ego won't admit it: see his quote: "my ability? Yes. An ability, no."

So here is this guy who prefers to play at empty tables late at night ... why, exactly?

He admits he is not a true DI.

Other than opting to avoid being surrounded by annoying fellow players, why play alone if you've no unique skill or ability that can best flourish and show itself under such conditions?

Some folks just prefer solitude when they masturbone.

And another thing: what makes Ahigh so sure that the guys who write books about dice setting and put on seminars on dice setting know less about dice setting than he does?

Quote: MrV

He is "investigating" to try to determine, via his own methodology, whether in fact it is in fact possible to become an AP at craps, to train oneself to have a demonstrable, replicable "edge."

He ain't there yet, although his ego won't admit it: see his quote: "my ability? Yes. An ability, no."

So here is this guy who prefers to play at empty tables late at night ... why, exactly?

He admits he is not a true DI.

Other than opting to avoid being surrounded by annoying fellow players, why play alone if you've no unique skill or ability that can best flourish and show itself under such conditions?

Some folks just prefer solitude when they masturbone.

And another thing: what makes Ahigh so sure that the guys who write books about dice setting and put on seminars on dice setting know less about dice setting than he does?

People have claimed that I have admitted multiple things that I don't recall admitting. I'm pretty sure that admission is very explicit.

So let me correct you: I have never admitted that I am not, as you so eloquently put it "true DI."

Here is something that I will admit: until DI is proven, I will admit that I have not met, nor do I even know what is required for someone to be what you so eloquently described as a "true DI." Yet I absolutely do not admit that I lack the ability to throw with a player edge and take advantage of it.

Right now, I have over $800 in my pocket that started out as $5 about a week and a half ago. That proves nothing, especially since I had more available in the ATM if I had lost that $5. And of course, I have lost $800 in a single toss of the dice multiple times before as well, and that proved nothing either.

I don't see those folks who claim to be DI's, let's just take <playerABC> for example, to know what the hell they are talking about. As a general rule, someone who says, "oh yeah that DI I did it" or whatever they say, as a general rule these folks are full of crap!

But even if I did fail and proved that I was unable to get a player edge at the game, it still doesn't prove that it's impossible.

But to the folks like Boz who think I have a firm belief that I have a player edge: you're wrong. I don't know, maybe you can point me to the post (there are plenty of my posts out there) where I say, "I absolutely play with a player edge and it is proven." I never said that. I say that I do attempts at AP. But even if I have a session that matches the profile of suggesting that it's possible (like turning $5 into $800+ in 9 days) it's not proof of a damn thing but luck! Even if I was playing with an edge, I was lucky enough to get from $5 to $160 by parlaying until I got that far. Edge or no edge, that's some damn good luck!!!

Proof is much harder, and that's what I'm trying to do. The guys who don't understand how I intend to prove it generally have no clue what I'm doing, and no problems stating what I haven't done without having a clue what I am doing and instead choose to laugh when I say that I am a researcher instead of knowing more of who I am and what I do.

Ahigh one thing I have come to learn about casino gambling is that results do not prove anything.

For example, in video poker:

There are "expert video poker players" who know the strategy of the games they play with 100% perfection and play on positive expectation machines and still lose. Why? Because they didn't get lucky and have no control over the random number generator. Yet there are "dumb players" who do not know proper strategy and play games with a big negative paytable who hit royal flushes. Why? They get lucky and the RNG bails them out.

The same is true with craps players. Some get lucky. Some win money. That doesn't mean they have any skill in influencing or controlling dice.

In order for me to accept that someone has any skill with dice they would have to demonstrate to me "the skill" and any demonstration of "control" or "influence" would have to show more than just "results."

It's like a diver on a high board. All divers on a high board will end up in the water. But a skilled diver on a high board will be able to do certain twists and turns in the air before hitting the water and when they hit the water it will be with a particular style and form.

It's the same with a shooter at craps. All shooters at craps will get a number after they throw the dice. But a skilled shooter will be able to throw the dice a certain way so that the dice perform a certain type of defined roll and bounce.

I reject shooters who claim they have a controlled throw or an influenced throw only because they get "good numbers." A random shooter can get "good numbers."

Quote: AlanMendelson

I reject shooters who claim they have a controlled throw or an influenced throw only because they get "good numbers." A random shooter can get "good numbers."

To a limit. You show me 50 boxcars in a row in normal casino environment. After about the tenth boxcar, I might throw a buck in to see how long it will parlay. Even if I continue not to believe, if I am allowed to be paid at max pay for the remaining boxcars after hitting the max bet for the casino, I would at least call it a really good hunch.

Once I was at the Aria on a $10 table. I threw aces three times in a row on the comeout losing me $30. Each time with a controlled throw on a hardway set. After that, I asked for a $1 aces, and I RANDOMLY threw the dice in disgust fully expecting not to hit the aces.

When I hit the aces, the box man had a very unusual reaction of disbelief.

I laughed. I didn't parlay (I took it down).

It proved nothing, but that was one of the very few times I have seen four pairs in a row, and I *STILL* have never EVER seen four of the same hardway in a row.

Many casinos you are at max bet after hitting the first parlay on a pair on the hop. I won $31 and down for those four aces (netting a $9 loss for the four rolls), but someone who started on the first would have hit it for max starting at a buck .. even at the Aria.

1 -> 31 -> 961 -> 29791 -> 923521

That may have been the first time that boxman had seen that. I also lost about $700 in about ten minutes on that particular session and went to another table a few feet away and got it ALL back just as fast.

The point is, I agree with your statement within limits, but not absolutely. At some point you can prove something in a couple of rolls with enough consistency to demonstrate it clearly.

The more control the fewer rolls you need to demonstrate it.

If I have a 6.5 SRR, I probably need a few more thousand rolls at least, maybe a few hundred thousand.

Ahigh I disagree with this:

Quote: Ahigh

The more control the fewer rolls you need to demonstrate it.

I would say this instead: the more control you claim to have, the more rolls you need to demonstrate it.

I think anyone who claims anything related to a "seven to rolls ratio" is making a nonsensical claim unless it is in relation to the results in an actual game of craps and not in a demonstration or test on a home table or practice rig.

Depending on what numbers you throw and how your bets are in an actual game, you could go broke with a 6.5 SRR. For example, if you are betting the inside numbers and you are throwing outside numbers and horn numbers, your 6.5 SRR is worthless to you.

The "SRR" is nothing more than statistical gobbledygook for "dice controller schools" to make students imagine they have some skill. Avoiding 7s is not a skill. Hitting the numbers you bet on with consistency is a skill. Again I will say it, you can go broke with a 6.5 SRR.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Depending on what numbers you throw and how your bets are in an actual game, you could go broke with a 6.5 SRR. For example, if you are betting the inside numbers and you are throwing outside numbers and horn numbers, your 6.5 SRR is worthless to you.

Sure, but that just means you need to learn how to bet based on the numbers you are hitting/avoiding.

Quote:

The "SRR" is nothing more than statistical gobbledygook for "dice controller schools" to make students imagine they have some skill. Avoiding 7s is not a skill. Hitting the numbers you bet on with consistency is a skill. Again I will say it, you can go broke with a 6.5 SRR.

On the contrary. If someone could display a 6.5 RSR, then they are showing dice influencing, and it is a skill. Next question is what to bet and how much.

Separate the rolls from the bets. The right betting system is probably the easiest part of any DI skillset (if it exists, yadda yadda). One can easily work out how to best bet based on the bias you throw. Proving/Knowing you have a biased throw... much much harder.

Quote: thecesspit

Separate the rolls from the bets. The right betting system is probably the easiest part of any DI skillset (if it exists, yadda yadda). One can easily work out how to best bet based on the bias you throw. Proving/Knowing you have a biased throw... much much harder.

I find it hilarious that the same folks who claim it's not possible to have a biased throw have never lifted a finger to determine how to bet against a theoretical bias.

AlanMendelson vs Harley on the subject of how much work have you actually done to try to take advantage of any biased throw or any other bias .. these guys are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Harley works his butt off on that subject and Alan does nothing using the "it's not possible" as an excuse for being what I would classify as one of the laziest self-proclaimed experts on the subject.

I would summarize Alan's position as, "It can't be done and that's why I don't bother wasting my time doing the work that others do to try to exploit it. But I pretend to do it because why could it hurt. That's what everybody should do I think."

I'm even guilty about not recording left versus right die until recently and shooting with some lame set that looked cool for the first two years while trying to develop some motor memory.

But again, the guys who are convinced it's all hogwash and have never downloaded BoneTracker sort of crack me up (I never used BoneTracker, but if I wasn't a programmer I would).

I'm convinced that the reason most people can't exploit an edge is simple: laziness. It's a lot of hard work if exploiting an edge in the game is possible, and that already rules out 99.99% of the players in the game (or more) who expect other things to work that are easier to do.

Quote: Ahigh

But again, the guys who are convinced it's all hogwash and have never downloaded BoneTracker sort of crack me up (I never used BoneTracker, but if I wasn't a programmer I would).

I am an atheist.

By your logic, I should read the bible?

Quote: MrV

I am an atheist.

By your logic, I should read the bible?

No, but if you went to a church to talk about how ridiculous it is that god exists without knowing a single thing about the religion of the church you were visiting, I might find it humorous.



The analogy of atheism versus Christianity probably applies more to Harley-vs-Alan's approach to dice control of "it can't hurt to try" than to what I'm saying.

The truth is that it can hurt to try if you're doing it wrong. Just like prayer is considered to be a waste of valuable time and resources by folks who believe in satanism.

I think Alan is more of a "religious type" when it comes to beliefs about DI.

Unfortunately thecesspit I am yet to hear from any dice controller what numbers they are hitting with their SRRs and what that means when they play at a real gaming table. Does anyone want to meet me at a craps table and show me for the record? Ahigh had his chance but he sent Harley to chart me.

edited to add:

And the problem for the great Dice Controllers and Dice Influencers with their outstanding SRRs is that in craps for the right way players you only win one bet at a time, yet lose them all when the 7 shows. So in order for a player with a high SRR to maximize his win he would have to be able to bet and target precise numbers. So, is there a Dice Controller with a high SRR willing to demonstrate how they can target, let's say, the ten? How about going for the gusto and betting only on midnight?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Unfortunately thecesspit I am yet to hear from any dice controller what numbers they are hitting with their SRRs and what that means when they play at a real gaming table. Does anyone want to meet me at a craps table and show me for the record? Ahigh had his chance but he sent Harley to chart me.

That's a failure in practice, not theory :)

It remains obvious if you avoid the 7, you must be hitting other numbers more often. And thus you could sit with a pen and paper and work out which numbers are now beneficial to hit. Even if it was equally distributed across the other 10.... the surfeit of bets on the table means at some RSR value a bet would have an advantage.

Merely reporting the RSR is not, indeed, enough. But having a RSR of 6.5 -would be- a sign of influencing the dice (just like knowing the true count in a 6 deck shoe, the next part is working out how to make a profit with that information).

Quote:

edited to add:

And the problem for the great Dice Controllers and Dice Influencers with their outstanding SRRs is that in craps for the right way players you only win one bet at a time, yet lose them all when the 7 shows. So in order for a player with a high SRR to maximize his win he would have to be able to bet and target precise numbers. So, is there a Dice Controller with a high SRR willing to demonstrate how they can target, let's say, the ten? How about going for the gusto and betting only on midnight?

IF you had a 6.5 RSR AND IF the other numbers were equally distributed upwards from avoiding the 7, the odds bets would have about a 10% advantage. So once you hit your point, odds bets become favourable.

For instance, if you only hit 5.5 7's per 36 rolls (RSR = 6.54) and 5.06 6's per 36 rolls, if you hit a 6, the odds on the 6 carry a 10.4% advantage

Wouldn't need to target anything, just avoid the 7 and thus hit your point more often. And as you are avoiding the 7, you establish a point more often. Of course you hit 2,3, 12 a bit more often, but it would all work out. AHigh's tool for this would work it all quite nicely, I believe (I don't know if only works on dice rolles rather than over distributions, but it's not a hard problem, I just put together a simple spread sheet for myself).

So a high RSR is an indicator that there is influence and an advantage. You just need to know how to use it. And understand variance so as to bet the right amount of your bankroll when in the advantageous position. Just like counting cards. However, no-one has shown you can influence the dice (*), whereas they have shown you can count cards.

(*) well, tat's not exactly true, but in the way I would accept to be able to play with these models. But I haven't looked as hard as other posters.

Quote: thecesspit

IF you had a 6.5 RSR AND IF the other numbers were equally distributed upwards from avoiding the 7, the odds bets would have about a 10% advantage.

Except that's not what would happen. If you have a 6.5 RSR from on-axis rolling, you have huge double-digit edges all over the table. You only need a 6.01 RSR to beat the passline if that's being obtained the right way and you're betting properly. And you have an even better edge on the line with a 5.99 RSR. That's why RSR is a useless measurement -- it doesn't properly correlate with player edge. It's unrealistic and unnecessary to have an RSR of 6.5 in order to have an edge, but the problem is that a small but profitable RSR, like 6.03, is impossible to distinguish from random luck. That's just one seven fewer than expected over every 1200 rolls if that's all you're looking at.

Quote: MathExtremist

Except that's not what would happen. If you have a 6.5 RSR from on-axis rolling, you have huge double-digit edges all over the table. You only need a 6.01 RSR to beat the passline if that's being obtained the right way and you're betting properly. And you have an even better edge on the line with a 5.99 RSR. That's why RSR is a useless measurement -- it doesn't properly correlate with player edge. It's unrealistic and unnecessary to have an RSR of 6.5 in order to have an edge, but the problem is that a small but profitable RSR, like 6.03, is impossible to distinguish from random luck. That's just one seven fewer than expected over every 1200 rolls if that's all you're looking at.

Sure. But the claim was that a 6.5 RSR wouldn't show influence, and that you could still lose with such a roll. Clearly a) it could show influence and b) knowledge of your roll if it's not random means you can find a profitable edge.

The most important thing would be to actually prove your distribution is not random, and know what it is (with some error parameters, and based your estimation at around 3 s.d.s from the mean you have calculated).

RSR is useless for telling you how to bet. I concede that. I also think this is all theoretical.

Quote: thecesspit

It remains obvious if you avoid the 7, you must be hitting other numbers more often.

This is true and this is the key to being a successful dice influencer. There is something called "signature numbers" and I don't recall in all of the discussions here anyone mentioning "signature numbers."

Unless you know your signature numbers and hit them, your fabulous SRR is meaningless.

Here, for example, is a great SRR:

1. Come out point 6.
2. 3
3. 2
4. 2
5. 11
6. 11
7. 12
8. 8
9. 12
10. 11
11. 5
12. 4
13. 5
14. 10
15. 11
16. 4
17. 5
18. 7 out. The point of six was never made.

How would you compute the SRR of the example above and suppose the shooter had his money on the 6 with full odds, and the 8 and the 5 and 9? Let me do the math for you at a $10 table with 3-4-5 odds:

Point of six with 5x odds: $60
$10 on the 5 and 9 = $20
$12 on the 8 = $12
Total outlay $92

After the 18 rolls above:
Amount won: $56
Net loss: $36

Of course, if you know that you hit the outside numbers or the horn numbers and you bet appropriately, the story would be very different. Perhaps Ahigh can obtain the records that Harley kept when he charted me at Caesars that night? What it would show is that I was at a $10 table with full odds on the point of 6. I never made the point, but I held the dice for nearly a half hour and colored up more than $1200 after a $200 buy-in because I was hitting everything but a six and kept pressing.

The last time I tossed a streak of horn bets like that I cleared around $1500 on it. I think I would have beaten that number on rolls 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 of the series you just posted.

Quote: AlanMendelson

This is true and this is the key to being a successful dice influencer. There is something called "signature numbers" and I don't recall in all of the discussions here anyone mentioning "signature numbers."

Unless you know your signature numbers and hit them, your fabulous SRR is meaningless.

Here, for example, is a great SRR:
(snip 18 numbers)

18 numbers means jack all, just like 18 cards from a baccarat deck mean jack all.

Using 18 numbers to decide on RSR, signature numbers or how to bet is magical thinking. It means NOTHING. Zero. Zilch. Bugger all. Sweet Fanny Adams.

You know you guys act like you've never seen the output from my software or how it works.

It's sorta sad listening to the reports for how things can go so poorly.

My RSR so big but my pay so small? What happened?

Maybe Bohemian can report on those recorded rolls. It seems like he keeps in touch with Harley these days.

Ahigh, is she sizing you up ?

Quote: Buzzard

Ahigh, is she sizing you up ?

I thought this image was appropriate seeing Alan and Heavy comparing numbers.

It is VERY obvious that Alan does not grasp many of the concepts that make up dice control theory. In addition to that, he obviously believes in dice control and has reserved his own fairly tale fictional characters who can do it that he no longer maintains contact with.

I find it entertaining to see him trying to figure it all out here in public with his little discussions about definitions and talks about physics and engineering like he is about to crack the code.

There's so much already out there that he hasn't wrapped his head around. It's very obvious from reading what he writes that he's a babe lost in the woods just even understanding the basic theories.

The fact that he attacks what I'm doing is understandable. It's like a kid trying to build a sandcastle and fails and goes over to stomp on another kid's sandcastle in a fit of rage and frustration.

Quote: heavy

The last time I tossed a streak of horn bets like that I cleared around $1500 on it. I think I would have beaten that number on rolls 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 of the series you just posted.

Of course, heavy, what you didn't say, but I will, is that I learned the cross sixes set from you. And I think it was from back around 1996 or 97.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Of course, heavy, what you didn't say, but I will, is that I learned the cross sixes set from you. And I think it was from back around 1996 or 97.

The cross sixes set. Oh yeah that one. The one with threes on top right? And they make a V shape. I'm sure you know there are eight such sets, right?

Which of those 8 "flying V" sets are you using?