"When" does dice influence start???

Quote: Boz

I am in Vegas this weekend naturally to gamble. Simple question Ahigh, should I bet with you and do you think I would have an advantage betting with you?

Honestly while I question many of your posts and theories, I am still open to proof or more importantly, profits.

I will be middle strip willing to play anywhere from Harrahs to PH, back to Ellis Island.

Yeah, let's meet up and I will drive you around and give you the Ahigh tour.

If you're going to go with the intentions of making money, you need to let me do the steer on the whens, where's, and how's.

I can't meet you at a place I have never been before and play on a crowded table full of tourists and be expected to do much.

It just won't happen. That includes most of the places you rattled off up there.

Quote:

Jimbo

In my experience at the craps table (which I suspect is much like most of the other members of this Forum), some stickpersons are quicker to chastise a shooter for a short roll while other stickpersons are more tolerant. And it also depends on the circumstances. Most shooters do try to bounce the dice off the backboard--in the words of the Indiana code, they are making a "good faith attempt." In the infrequent occurrence when a shooter is continually throwing short rolls and is clearly not making a good faith attempt, then the stickperson will certainly declare the roll invalid and, if necessary, take the dice away and pass it to the next shooter.

This is the problem without having rules in place:

Quote:

Jimbo
some stickpersons are quicker to chastise a shooter for a short roll while other stickpersons are more tolerant

. And it also depends on the circumstances. This holds so true, you have some dealers and boxmen that take great pleasure in using rules that are not written down to their advantage. Some of these dealers and boxmen think that its their money someone is winning when they get on a roll.

When we gamble we all should want games that we know the rules for, and not have some fool that is bored to death to make something up as they seem fit to do!
Most players would never question what happened on a table they just go along with the flow of the game, but if you play the game all the time, you get to see a lot of things that you shouldn't be seeing when you are playing. If you play craps once a year or maybe hit the casinos a few times a year, you might not think its a big deal to have rules in place to protect the players along with the casinos. You are only playing for the fun of it, yes you want to win, but at the same time you don't go into great detail about the game. You may take everything for granted, I would guess if you asked the players around a craps table here in NV they would tell you that they have rules in place to protect the players, when in fact they are mostly there to protect the casinos.

Quote: superrick

If you play craps once a year or maybe hit the casinos a few times a year, you might not think its a big deal to have rules in place to protect the players along with the casinos. You are only playing for the fun of it, yes you want to win, but at the same time you don't go into great detail about the game.

I read and then re-read the last paragraph of your post in response to my earlier post, and I can't tell if the "you" is referring to people generally or if you are referring to me specifically. I am curious to know.

In either case, I agree there should be "rules" with which we are all familiar, but at the same time, I think a rule (such as the Indiana Administrative Code) that speaks to a "good faith attempt" when shooting dice is better than a rule that is explicit and restrictive in nature. Otherwise, a more restrictive rule can be abused by the stickperson to hassle the shooter. Also, a restrictive rule that is inflexible cannot fairly address the many different circumstances that occur during the course of the game.

Frankly, it is rare in my experience when a stickperson chastises a player for a short roll when it is obvious that the short roll was not intended. Sometimes the stickperson is merely informing a "newbie" that it is expected the dice must bounce off the backboard, and the stick is not trying to be offensive. Many times (and we have all heard this) the stick mentions "a weak roll" which is a subtle and kinder way or reminding the player to get the dice to the end of the table. [When it is me, I typically tell the stick that I've been working out on weights at home so as to get the dice to the backboard.]

Quote: superrick

I would guess if you asked the players around a craps table here in NV they would tell you that they have rules in place to protect the players, when in fact they are mostly there to protect the casinos.

A close reading of the Indiana Administrative Code with the very detailed rules of play would clearly indicate that the rules are in place to protect both the player and the casino. In my view, as it should.

I understand what you are saying, but I dont think that will be possible. I appreciate the offer to visit your haunts and see you in action. If if you are in the center strip area (maybe Caesars) let me know.

Sorry Boz. Oh well! GOOD LUCK!

Bad Boz. You didn't play by his rules, you don't get the privilege!

Now you don't get the "Ahigh Tour".

And I assume you don't want to win any money because if you did then you would heed this advice:

Quote: Ahigh

If you're going to go with the intentions of making money, you need to let me do the steer on the whens, where's, and how's.

You should know that influencing only works on less crowded tables with no tourists. The dice are very cognizant of where players are from and are shy to perform in front of a lot of strangers.

Good luck. You're going to need it playing in the slums of "middle strip" without his guidence.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Bad Boz. You didn't play by his rules, you don't get the privilege!

Now you don't get the "Ahigh Tour".

And I assume you don't want to win any money because if you did then you would heed this advice:



You should know that influencing only works on less crowded tables with no tourists. The dice are very cognizant of where players are from and are shy to perform in front of a lot of strangers.

Good luck. You're going to need it playing in the slums of "middle strip" without his guidence.

ZCore13

Most people come here to gamble, dude. I'd rather win with luck if I were him too. It's not like I have no experience with people coming into town and invite me to a crowded table and think I always win. It was exactly this context that cause me to blowout my bankroll at the MGM when I met with Axiom.

If someone wants to do my circuit with me, they'll do my circuit with me.

If you want to meet and talk and gamble, let's not pretend that you're going to see me do an advantage play at a table I have never shot from before in my life.

I have been playing tons of tables, just hardly any at the places he listed.

If you lived here in Las Vegas and knew all the stuff that I knew about all the tables around town you would understand.

But you are clueless. It's not about slums. It's about the tables themselves and the crews and how they respond to me personally, and the time of the day, and many other factors.

Your claiming that these should not matter to me to perform ideally are great evidence of your lack of understanding of how I approach things.

Quote:

Bad Boz. You didn't play by his rules, you don't get the privilege!

Now you don't get the "Ahigh Tour".

And I assume you don't want to win any money because if you did then you would heed this advice:

Gee Ahigh, you should drop everything you are doing and run right down to wherever someone from out of town is staying, pick them up and take them you your favorite casino to play at,... risking your money just so you can make them money off you shooting or lack of it, if everything goes wrong!

It doesn't matter that where and when they want to play doesn't fit into your schedule, all that matters is that you go out of your way to show these out of town players a good time.
Then there is always the possibility that this player that you never met before, just might be a bad guy that want nothing more then to rob you. You just might be an easy target for him, my wife is always asking where I know somebody from. She doesn't want anybody to know where we live, and I don't give out personal information on the boards.

Why should Ahigh go out of his way to make you happy, if he doesn't know you. I'm sure that he would want to met some of the guys that keep calling him names just so he can prove a point.

Quote:

Ahigh

If someone wants to do my circuit with me, they'll do my circuit with me.

No Ahigh, you are expected to do anything they want to do, you are their tour guide, that is not getting anything out of it, your at their beckon call, if they want to play at 9 pm you will run right over to were they are staying and show them a thing or two about shooting and betting. Of course they don't have a rental car, so they will need you to run them around!

If you don't do what they want you to do, your now the bad guy, here in Vegas. Let's not forget that when you do show up you will be waiting around, just because this guy doesn’t know what time of the day it is.

I've had the good fortune of meeting some really good guys from the different boards, but I'm very selective in the players that I will go to the tables with, most guys are from friends, of friends and most are the dreaded DI's. I've been to the tables with a few guys that I've got a lot of respect for the way they write when they post anything on the boards, some of them telling me up front, that they are just so-called random rollers. I've had some of my best times with these so-called random rollers that know how to play the game to win.

One of those players turned out to be RaleighCraps, I like reading what he has to say when he is posting, he told me up front that he was a rhythm roller, but knew how to bet the game when he was playing and that turned out to be true. He wasn't trying to prove anything, he never got to play off the strip when he was in town, because like most players he didn't rent cars when he is in Vegas. I got to show him a different side of Vegas by showing him the casinos that we locals play in. I didn't have him on crowded tables where you would have to wait an hour just to get the dice. That day I played later then I would normally play but it had nothing to do with him, that was because I had something going on that had to be taking care of first. He understood that we couldn't play at the best time of the day, but still wanted to see how the locals play craps.

The next time he comes back to Vegas, I'm sure that we can get together more then one time, where we are not pressed for time, I had to get him back to his casino so he could check out and catch his flight. So when I got him on a table that was going his way he had to cut his play short. I taught him a way to make money playing the field that day. That was because he was very open to suggestions, we can all learn from different players, I've learned most of my betting strategies from these so-called random rollers.

What I like to say is you don't have to be a DI to win at craps, but you do need good betting strategies to win!

Ahigh some of these guys think you owe it to them, to go out and play craps with them when they are in town, what a joke!!!!!!

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quote: Zcore13

You should know that influencing only works on less crowded tables with no tourists. The dice are very cognizant of where players are from and are shy to perform in front of a lot of strangers.

Good luck. You're going to need it playing in the slums of "middle strip" without his guidence.

This is just asinine. Look, I'm as skeptical of practical dice influence with the purpose of making money as the next guy, but you have to realize that if it is possible, conditions are a big part of it. It's not that the dice are cognizant, it's that you want to be shooting on a table that you're familiar with (bounce factor), you don't want piles of chips in your landing zone, and you want to have the dice in your hand as much as possible (i.e., you don't want a bunch of other shooters to cycle through).

I'm not jumping to Ahigh's defense here, I'm just trying to defend common sense logic and defray emotional arguments. This is a totally valid point, again, if such dice throwing is possible.

He can't contol his shot on his home table with nothing else on it and nobody on the rail. I watched almost 2 hours of that circus last week. If such dice throwing is possible, why can't anyone in the world prove it? He could easily take his 200 throws each week (or whenever) and roll 100 out of a cup and 100 as he tries to influence them. The problem with that is that it will prove he has ZERO influence and will make him look and feel silly for everything he's said. He's in too deep to admit anything now. There have been tons of good suggestion on how to try and prove if he can or can't influence. He just ignores them.

ZCore13

Lets just say that for BJ AP's books have been written by the hundreds about teams and movies have been made. I have yet to see one article on a team of craps AP's. That leads me to believe such a thing does not really exist. Also, I have stated this before, no AP announces or makes a scene at the table. Most AP's go out of their way to disguise themselves so as not to draw heat.

Quote: hook3670

Lets just say that for BJ AP's books have been written by the hundreds about teams and movies have been made. I have yet to see one article on a team of craps AP's. That leads me to believe such a thing does not really exist. Also, I have stated this before, no AP announces or makes a scene at the table. Most AP's go out of their way to disguise themselves so as not to draw heat.

Just to qualify what you're saying, you are referring only to BJ AP's as not announcing or making a scene.

The history of Stanley Fujitake at the California Club contradicts your claims about making a scene at the table. Go to the California Club and ask the dealers about him. Many have witnessed contradictions to your claims, in fact, assuming that Stanley is an AP craps player.

I've made scenes with long rolls at many casinos and people routinely compliment me on my performances just like they do random shooters.

It sounds to me as if you just aren't that familiar with how the game of craps works. But if you have a good roll, the stick man will say things like "same good shooter" and emphasize to the people betting that they are betting on someone with a history of winning.

If the player happens to be an AP, whether it's proven or not, your claim that "no AP announces or makes a scene at the table" is clearly false.

You could make it true by saying "no AP that has proven that they are an AP using math and statistics announces or makes a scene at the table" and that would be a true statement.

The whole argument hinges on proof, however. You would have to prove that no AP craps player exists otherwise because any good shot makes a scene at a craps table. That's the way that the game works, my friend.

Quote: Zcore13

He can't contol his shot on his home table

Just since you clearly don't understand this, you can only control the shot up until the point that you let go of the dice.

That's how it is. Once you let go of the dice, you no longer have control.

If you are stating that I am not telekinetic and that's what you expect from someone who gets a distribution of outcomes necessary for advantage play, I think you misunderstand the theory.

To summarize, I don't think you get it, unfortunately.

Your stating your claim that if I did what you said would prove that I have zero influence is an interesting hypothesis. But you state it as if it is fact.

You routinely make false statements.

It's what you do for fun apparently.

Quote: Ahigh

It sounds to me as if you just aren't that familiar with how the game of craps works. But if you have a good roll, the stick man will say things like "same good shooter" and emphasize to the people betting that they are betting on someone with a history of winning.

Speaking as the casino industry, and I’m sure Zcore will confirm, this more hurts your point than bolsters it (or at least it does looking at this from my perspective).

The stick is the carney of Craps. He’s the guy shouting out and encouraging play, and what does he mostly push? The garbage middle bets.

Him calling out “hot shooter” is more of the same. He’s no different than the reader board showing “hot numbers” in Roulette. He’s capitalizing on most player’s (ploppy’s) ignorance that numbers / die are “hot”.

I mean, isn’t it obvious? He’s advertising precisely because there can’t be AP on Craps. They wouldn’t do it if there was a way to take advantage. (could you imagine them calling out the count on double deck BJ?)

I'm not using this fact as evidence that the stick man is doing anything but selling the game.

I am using this as evidence that the assertion in the previous post is wrong.

The game is carried out as a process of glorifying whoever is shooting the dice.

The previous poster said that no AP would be glorified.

Proven or not, it only takes one glorified AP player to make his statement false.

Bolstering my case using the stick man's credibility is not my claim.

Suggesting that it is demonstrates you failed to understand my proving the previous poster's claim as false via Reductio ad Absurdum.

It's absurd to think that an AP would not be glorified if they exist, therefore the only argument is the original argument (that there cannot exist any AP and if there exists a single AP, they will be glorified) and therefore there is no substance to the claim that if an AP existed they would not be glorified.

Your claim to be an insider is not surprising. I know plenty of insiders who fail understand things like this. As I mentioned, I play a lot. I talk to the crews plenty.

Today when I played, the crews quizzed me on things that they didn't know. One of the specific conversations was about if a roll should be called when the die landed on top of the stack of die. On Sunday, a boxman asked his crew that I was the only one at the table that knew the answer. The question was about the details of how much does an $8 place bet on the four pay. There are no fewer than three possible answers depending on the particular casino in question. In general, all of the dealers had no experience with such a situation at all. I knew all the details. They all work in the casino industry just like you and represent the casino industry.

I get plenty of respect from the crews that know me, and the recognize that I know many things about the game that they do not.

So speak for the casino industry if you wish, but don't think I am necessarily impressed with your knowledge as such a representative.

That goes for Zcore as well.

Quote: Ahigh

I get plenty of respect from the crews that know me, and the recognize that I know many things about the game that they do not.

Yeah, um, this is pretty common. I know usually 20
times more about roulette than anybody in the pit.
You assume that just because they work the game
they know all about it, and they don't. Thats like
assuming the guy at the car wash knows all about
cars. He doesn't.

Funny how much Ahigh loves himself and how wrong everyone else is. He even knows more than the craps dealers now. Wow, he's awesome.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Funny how much Ahigh loves himself and how wrong everyone else is. He even knows more than the craps dealers now. Wow, he's awesome.

ZCore13

Funny how when you're trying to be sarcastic, your statements are closer to reality. I don't know more about craps than every single craps dealer, nor did I claim that. I know many things about the game that most craps dealers do not know, however. And yes, I am in fact pretty damn awesome.

If you truly don't believe that, ask the dealers in question! They will tell you themselves!

Too funny

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Too funny

ZCore13

Finally something we can agree on. When you're in town, we definitely should go and play. I would love to show you first hand what it's like when I play.

You might not change your opinion about anything, but you could at least see the world from my eyes!

Quote: Ahigh

I know many things about the game that most craps dealers do not know,

Sigh. Again, this is EXTREMELY common for all
casino games. If you've researched a game at all,
you know more about it than most of the pit.

Quote: EvenBob

Sigh. Again, this is EXTREMELY common for all
casino games. If you've researched a game at all,
you know more about it than most of the pit.

Wow I even have something to agree with EvenBob on! What the hell is happening!

Quote: Ahigh

Wow I even have something to agree with EvenBob on! What the hell is happening!

If you knew this was true, why brag about how
much more you know than the pit does? You
obviously DIDN'T know that anybody who's read
just one book on a casino game generally knows
more than most of the pit knows.

Quote: EvenBob

If you knew this was true, why brag about how
much more you know than the pit does? You
obviously DIDN'T know that anybody who's read
just one book on a casino game generally knows
more than most of the pit knows.

If you had realized it, I was responding to a response that was from the "casino industry" as if being from the industry qualifies the quality level of the information.

I was not bragging, as you describe it. I was merely stating, "alright, great that it's from the casino industry, and here is my experience about knowledge from inside the industry: it includes dealers, etc, even break-ins with no experience."

You can't just say "I work for the casino so I know."

You in fact were agreeing with me when you also said that people in the casino industry don't know all that much more than people who read a book or two.

The fact is that you lost the context of my comment altogether as you were so keenly focused on attacking me assuming that I was bragging about how much I know.

If I were going to brag, I would brag about how the great EvenBob loves to talk to me so much even though he such an important person.

And no, I REALLY mean that. Not being sarcastic.

Quote: Ahigh

The fact is that you lost the context of my comment .

We all lose context when you comment because you're
all over the place and half the time nobody can tell
exactly what you're talking about.

Or hadn't you noticed that.

Quote: Ahigh

If you had realized it, I was responding to a response that was from the "casino industry" as if being from the industry qualifies the quality level of the information.

I was not bragging, as you describe it. I was merely stating, "alright, great that it's from the casino industry, and here is my experience about knowledge from inside the industry: it includes dealers, etc, even break-ins with no experience."

You can't just say "I work for the casino so I know."

First, you’re right. I missed the fact you were being sarcastic.

Second, sorry. I suppose that was presumptuous on my part. I post so much and am so open about what I do that I guess I assumed everyone knew what I’m about.

In any case, I didn’t mean to come across like I was the All Knowing. You can and in fact should question anything I say. I rather prefer it. But at the very least, I can confirm I’m not a dolt (of which many certainly exist within the industry) I do have a number of years experience and take my education of gaming far beyond the four walls of the inner sanctum. And while my #1 focus and most of my knowledge centers on NY Tribal, I still reach out and am somewhat knowledgeable in other markets, to include Vegas and even international.

My statement shouldn’t be taken as Supreme Truth, but rather as just another data point. I’m not a gambler, I’m GamePro. And from my side of the fence, in all my experiences and all the conferences I’ve ever been to, Craps AP has never once been mentioned (with the exception of the Wynn dice slide which isn’t AP per the accepted definition, instead considered a “breakdown in policy”)

Obviously, I'm biased. Plus, I've not seen anything to contradict that belief. Perhaps, your quest will supply that contradiction. Regardless, mine is the opinion of one man, nothing more.

Quote:

Jimbo

I read and then re-read the last paragraph of your post in response to my earlier post, and I can't tell if the "you" is referring to people generally or if you are referring to me specifically. I am curious to know.

No Jimbo that wasn't directed you;..it was for the general public that takes everything for granted! They think that what ever the casinos do is the right thing. Casinos would never do anything that is wrong, and if they did they would lose their gaming license, so they feel safe when they are playing in any casino.
Unfortunately here in NV there are no rules that really spell out what can and can't be done on a craps table as far as no rolls are concerned or hitting the back wall:

Quote:

Jimbo
In Indiana, the shooter shall throw 2 dice to the far end of the table "for the purpose of bouncing the dice off the backboard of the craps table." The shooter "must make a good faith attempt" to bounce the dice of the backboard.

Just look at what Indiana has for a rule. When you have a guy that sets the dice and one of his die hits the back wall and for some odd reason the other doesn't the roll would count, they couldn't take the dice away for the shooter. Here in Vegas the casinos use the fact that one die didn't hit the back wall to their advantage is you have someone that is setting the dice. They will take the dice off that players sometimes for even missing the back wall more then one time. Lets just say that you did miss the back wall ten rolls ago and now your on your 20th roll and your dice hit the chips one die hits the back wall and the other stops dead. The next thing you know is they just took the dice off you, it happens all the time in Vegas, if you just happen to be playing in a sweat joint!
I've even seen them do it with so-called random rollers that were on a roll. A lot of times it has to do with who what shift you are playing on, you can be treated differently by the different shifts. The casinos have no real set rules in place.

Lets take a look at what I call sweat joints, how about one that only has 2x's odds and is on the south end of the strip, there is a boxman in there that takes great pleasure in doing anything he can to stop a roll, to the locals he is very well known, that from time to time will play in there because of their wives love this place, for the food or shows that they have.
They have two different sets of rules one for anybody that sets the dice and on for the random rollers. If you are setting the dice you are a criminal in their minds and should be stopped at any way they can. Even if you haven't done anything wrong, they will find something that they can make a big deal out of.
This same casino always seems to have full tables when you go in there, most of the players are from out of town, that are staying there, they do a lot so shows, that bring in a lot of out of town play, that think they are getting a good deal playing in there. The 2x's odds on their craps table should tell you that there is something wrong, but if you know no better, you will stand there and lose your money on a bad game.

95% of all players gamble for the fun of it, there are very few players that take the time to study the games they play. Just look at how stupid the BJ players are any more, the casinos took a good game and made it into a bad one for the players and yet you still have everybody playing it. Sure there are some card counters that can count down 6 to 8 decks of cards, but not many of them and they have to move their play around just so they can play. The next time your in a casino, just watch what is going on in the BJ pit, if you have a guy that is winning, you will have one or two suits standing there watching him play, I've seen players that were just getting lucky asked to leave the table.

Well the same thing happens when you have anybody that is setting the dice, the only difference is the casinos use some rule that is not written down anywhere against the player that is on a good roll. So unlike the books and the forums where you have some fiction writer,..writing that they are taking hundreds of thousands of dollars off the tables every year it just doesn't happen.

If your a DI and you are winning, you are going to wear out your welcome really fast!

This may or may not be meant for me, but I 100% understand Ahigh in this situation. I was willing to watch him and bet some of my money on him if he was in the area I will be in. Time and other factors do not allow me to travel with him to where he plays. I stated straight up I have questioned him and his theories on multiple occasions and still am not a believer. That said, I really am not risking anymore than I will already by playing with him, again if he was in the area.

His offer to me was more than fair and he doesnt know me, just like I dont know him other than from this forum and his show. But fear is not a reason why I cannot make the trip with him. His offer would open him up to me potentially blasting him on here if I didnt win and even me calling it luck if we did. He had little upside, yet still offered to take me with him.

No reason for anyone to blast him for this one in my opinion.

I think those who are true non-believers should be to keep the money in between us on every bet except the boxcars.

I could even let you make the bet and require that I make the opposing bet to whatever you select and let me try to take your money.

That's the most appropriate way to treat a non-believer. Put your money where your mouth is!

I would actually rather do things that way as you would profit from being right that I am not a controlled shooter. And if you're wrong or unlucky, you will feel it.

If you really want to say I can't AP, let *ME* pick the bets and you take the opposing sides (except the hardways, which you can't lay a hardway).

Especially if you are a big better, there's no heat from the house when you play this way as they aren't losing any money, just twiddling their thumbs hoping for a 12 on the comeout.

But no matter what sequence of bets you make, I think I can cope by changing my sets if you let me bring a cheat sheet.

It would be much more fun to challenge me to make you lose than the other way around. Because if I suck, you should win, right?

If I don't suck, I should win.

Quote: Ahigh

I think those who are true non-believers should be to keep the money in between us on every bet except the boxcars.

I could even let you make the bet and require that I make the opposing bet to whatever you select and let me try to take your money.

That's the most appropriate way to treat a non-believer. Put your money where your mouth is!

I would actually rather do things that way as you would profit from being right that I am not a controlled shooter. And if you're wrong or unlucky, you will feel it.

If you really want to say I can't AP, let *ME* pick the bets and you take the opposing sides (except the hardways, which you can't lay a hardway).

Especially if you are a big better, there's no heat from the house when you play this way as they aren't losing any money, just twiddling their thumbs hoping for a 12 on the comeout.

But no matter what sequence of bets you make, I think I can cope by changing my sets if you let me bring a cheat sheet.

It would be much more fun to challenge me to make you lose than the other way around. Because if I suck, you should win, right?

If I don't suck, I should win.

I don't know about betting opposite to you, If you think you can roll lots of hard 10's and I don't, how would I bet that. I'd be happy to put my money against yours if you can think of a way to test your skills. A certain number of rolls against my random rolls? You say prior to the roll what you are trying to roll and compare the results to normal averages?

I'll be in Las Vegas for sure for G2E, maybe before if I feel the need. Money could give me the feeling.

ZCore13

The way to do the hard 10's is to bet them on the rail and make even-money bets.

You pay me 11 for 1 on a hard 6/8 and 9 for 1 on a hard 4/10. The chips never go to the felt, and a non-verbal agreement is made by placing the chips in a special way to denote the bet. You put up 10 or 8 chips for my 1 chip and they stay there until the bet is resolved. Then one of the two of us takes all the chips.

It has to be non-verbal otherwise they may say something about the exchanging of chips.

The easier way, of course, is just not to make those bets and stick with the opposing free bets offered on the table.

The advantage of making opposing bets is that you can prevent the casino from getting too much of your money.

When I bet against the casino, I don't need you there. I also don't get as much joy taking their money.

Also, like I said, no heat is awesome. I guarantee you there will be no heat when any boxman can see collectively between the two of us there is no opportunity for the house to make any money.

They are more than likely going to root for the do side in such a scenario, so I'd prefer you to be on the don't.

Wouldn't you feel more comfortable at your home table? No worries about heat. We pre-determine the rules with no casino rules to worry about. No issues of noise, other players, distractions, etc.

ZCore13

Quote:

Boz

His offer to me was more than fair and he doesnt know me, just like I dont know him other than from this forum and his show. But fear is not a reason why I cannot make the trip with him. His offer would open him up to me potentially blasting him on here if I didnt win and even me calling it luck if we did. He had little upside, yet still offered to take me with him.

No reason for anyone to blast him for this one in my opinion.

Any time you have a local that is willing to show you around, you should thank them,... not blast them, they are going out of their way to help you out. The same thing goes for Ahigh's little show that he puts on, if you watch it you might learn something you never thought about. The argument about someone being a DI will go on forever. We are after all only looking at little snippets of time when someone is shooting, the so-called random rolls have some great rolls, so do the guys that everybody would call a DI. Nobody has great rolls every time they step up to the tables, if that happened there would be no craps. The casinos would close down all of their tables.

Some posters take pleasure in cutting down somebody for what they are trying to do, maybe because they have nothing better to do. A lot of the statements made on these boards are inflammatory in nature and are taking out of context. It would be like making the statement that I'm the best shooter you will ever see in a casino, most shooters might take offense to that statement, thinking they are better then anybody else. Now I would never make any statements like that, because I know that no matter how good you think you are, you are for the most part just getting lucky.

Everything fell into place when you were shooting, now unlike Alan, I know that it also takes luck to find the right conditions so you might have a good roll.

Your shooting alone is not going to make you a winner, if every time you went to the tables you found them full of players that didn't have a clue as to what they were doing and you had to stand at the table for over an hour just to get the dice, you just stacked the odds in the favor of the casino. Just like the card counters will tell you, you don't want players on the tables taking cards that they shouldn't have taking. The same thing in a way goes for the DI's,..they don't want players doing every stupid thing the can that will stop a roll.

DI's do not want to wait to get the dice back, they need to find table that will allow them to shoot in a reasonable amount of time. Yes Alan even your hero spelled that out in his book Get the Edge at Craps by Sharpshooter on page 239 he writes:

Quote:

Sharpshooter
I play the hit and run style whenever I can, not waiting for the dice to come back around. If you are able, try playing during the week in the early morning hours. Look for empty, low-limit games to get back to back chances to throw.

Maybe this is why you never see any DI's when you are in Vegas, your playing craps at the wrong time of the day on crowded tables!

Quote: superrick

Maybe this is why you never see any DI's when you are in Vegas, your playing craps at the wrong time of the day on crowded tables!

Yes, this is an absolute certainty and part of what I am trying to get across. Weekend time, in general, is damn near impossible to get ideal conditions for a variety of reasons. But if you're going to get it at all, there are a few places that have empty tables on the weekend. I would rattle off what those places are, but I like the fact that they are empty.

My normal time slice for an empty table isn't as empty any more since I started telling people that's when I play, now they show up there at the same time.

A guy did this today to me, and he came up and bet $64 across, and I took all my bets down and randomly tossed the dice for a seven.

He cursed at me. He was pissed and normally he's a nice guy.

But I didn't ask him to come in when I come in for an empty table! And I honestly couldn't care less if he loses or not! I had already won $195 and had $15 on the table that I couldn't really care to worry about trying a controlled shot to unlock them, I was going if I won those bets or not.

In general, when I am at the casino to try to do advantage play, one of the best skills I have is the skill to run off other players. There are tons of things you can do to run off other players, and I will absolutely do them!

If it's a Friday night, it's impossible to run everybody off, so why try.

But if it's my normal time for me to be at my table at my spot by myself and some chump shows up thinking he will get the table to himself during my time, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to worry about your bets at all!

Tourists all bet the same way and they all get lucky at the same time and unlucky at the same time.

I want the dice. If I don't get the dice, I will cheer while you win, and if you're ahead I'll encourage you to take your wins and leave so I can play. I might bet on your roll. I might bet a DC bet in the middle of your roll. But I'm not going to encourage you to CONTINUE shooting. I'm going to say leave in any polite way that I can. If you lose, then the table is cold and has been cold all day. If you win, you better get out while you're ahead. That type of thing.

Also, I love to gamble and gamble big too! But if the goal of Boz is to try to advantage play with me, I'll be taking the wheel and showing how it's done starting with getting in my car and going to the best place to have the best chance to get it done. I wouldn't even be telling the names of the places we would be going and why.

There's absolutely no reason for me to do another session like the one I did with Axiom. I learned from that. I learned a lot.

I have a lot more to lose now than I did then, too, as my bankroll is about 10x as big.

So if you want to gamble, I have $100 to gamble.

If you want to go and try to prove I can't AP and win big from my bad luck, get in my car, shut up, and let me drive and show you. I have multiple destinations lined up waiting for me to put big money on the table with ideal conditions for me to play on. And if you want to bet just as big saying I can't do it, the casino would be more than happy to just take the money from the boxcars on the comeout in exchange for drinks and watch as a bystander with no heat. LET'S GO!!!

In fact, as I'm taking your money, the dealers would probably laugh at you for betting against me. The same dealers that got big money in tokes last weekend from a single roll of mine.

Of course it would be more fun to AP with me instead of betting I can't do it if I have another good roll. And of course I could have bad luck and we could both lose.

But either way it would be fun to do where I have in mind.

Half the fun of playing with me is experiencing how the dealers interact with me at a place that is familiar with my play. They will tell you the good and the bad. And I have had losing sessions at least once everywhere I have played.

You are not an AP.

Never were, never will be.

By your own words, yours is a random throw.

Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

It's all LUCK.

So sure, delude yourself with notions of the ideal time, the ideal table, no other crapsters to annoy you ... and pray for luck.

You'll need it, as do we all.

Sorry dude, no bye for you.

Quote: MrV

You are not an AP.

Never were, never will be.

By your own words, yours is a random throw.

Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.

It's all LUCK.

So sure, delude yourself with notions of the ideal time, the ideal table, no other crapsters to annoy you ... and pray for luck.

You'll need it, as do we all.

Sorry dude, no bye for you.

Wow.

Some people have really creepy, psychopathic obsessions for those with whom they disagree.

Quote: Ahigh

In general, when I am at the casino to try to do advantage play, one of the best skills I have is the skill to run off other players. There are tons of things you can do to run off other players, and I will absolutely do them!

.

Now I know why they throw out so called DI/DC. mystery solved

I just got back from the stratosphere and in a single roll I had three hard sixes with no easy in five throws (I parlayed 1 to 100 and down and missed the third one). In the same roll and only taking an addition five throws I rolled three hard 8's with no easy. The last two hard 8's were back to back. I took 10 and down on the first one, and another girl parlayed, took 90, then took another 90.

We both lamented that we missed the opportunity for 1 to 1000. The entire thing took place in fewer than ten throws. IE: 6 hardways in 10 throws.

This happened at 11:00pm at Stratosphere. Terry was dealing. Terry was also reminding me to hit the back wall after seeing all of this, but all these throws hit the back wall and were legal. IE: it was only after this that he reminded me about the back wall. The box there said he saw someone call 8 hard 8's with no easy before, but didn't say how many rolls it took to accomplish it.

For all six hardways I set with the hardway that was rolled on the top of my set.

IE: I had the most common outcome from my theoretically biased throw 6 times in 10 throws. Enough for me to roll another 164 times without hitting it a single other time and still be at my 1 in 29 for that outcome instead of 1 in 36 from my 3000 throws.

Actually, I just checked and at throw 3398 I have 1 out of 28.5 throws coming up with what's on top of my set.

This was on the crapless table at the Stratosphere.

Quote: AxelWolf

Wow the more I think about that statement the more upset I get and I really don't believe in DI/DC. You just gave every casino a legitimate reason to 86 anyone they think is attempting DI/DC and even extend it to any table game or AP. OUTRAGEOUS this gives everyone trying to play smarter then stone cold sucker a bad name.

How can you get upset if you don't believe it? It sounds like if you're truly upset you are not dismissing the possibility that I could shoot against another player's bets.

If I can get you off a table when I want the table for myself without you even knowing what I am doing, what is the harm in that? I gamble and play for fun too, but if I have limited time and I want the dice, I will clear the table if I can do it without creating a problem.

I'll tell you too, I used to shoot for random strangers' bets. One time I hit a guy's hardways and he won a huge amount of money and then he proceeded to tell me "you gotta bet big to win big" as if my shooting had nothing at all to do with him winning.

That was a turning point and I have never turned back.

If I don't know you and you're betting against my money, good luck!

If I have taken all my bets down and I am random rolling the dice, GOOD LUCK!

I don't have to roll for ANYBODY!!!

As far as the casinos 86'ing me, no way in freaking hell.

The only casinos that have an issue with me right now are the Wynn, and possibly the Plaza (doubtful on the Plaza, but last time they gave me a hard time).

The Gold Coast, MAYBE, but probably not.

In general, I never win more than others at the table lose.

Why would the casinos dislike me.

The ONLY exception recently was Teddy's buddy that I made $4,000+ from a $300 buy-in after we talked about how I could roll well when I wasn't betting.

Last weekend, I let two George's win $6,000 each on my roll from a $300 buy-in at the LVH to do a solid for the dealers. I informed Cleve (the black dealer who's been at the LVH since 1978) what I planned to do, and I executed it flawlessly. Feel free to ask Cleve about my roll last Sunday for the crew. I had $10 passline for the entire roll, and the roll was well into the 40's. I made three tens, then a four, then an 8, with all kinds of hardways and hardway parlays. The players were placing the four and ten for $500+ on top of their max odds. After my roll, even without betting, Toby insisted that I take a free room on the 23rd floor, gave me over $100 worth of food at Benihana and generally treated me really great. He was even hugging me and all kinds of stuff. I did have over $3000 on the rail, but I wasn't really betting all that much. The other guys had just $200 at the start and about $6,000 by the end of the roll. It got a lot of attention and earned me a lot of brownie points with the dealers there. I don't know exactly how much the dealers were getting tipped, but I believe it was into four figures.

The other dealer Stan, as a result of that performance, gave me the nickname "The Robinhood of Craps." Ask Stan and Cleve at the LVH about that.

I encourage anyone/everyone to verify my stories. I have hesitated to share these stories but they are true. I know that plenty of people are going to say "oh bullshit." And trust me, these aren't the only long rolls I've had in the last few days. I have had LOTS of long rolls.

It does not prove anything, but the truth is that you guys just don't see the game from my eyes in the casino have no clue what it's like to be me.

It is fantastic. And if you don't like me or you don't like what I do, or you don't believe in it, HEY. Bet against me, go for it!!! I will congratulate you when you get lucky on my losing roll!!! No problem at all. It is just a game and I lose this game just like everyone else!

But you want to tell me that you are certain that advantage play isn't possible, how about you do the Ahigh tour with me. The truth is you probably couldn't even put in the hours. You'd run out of stamina pretty quick.

Your running off the other player intentionally that costs the casino money. DI/DC Possible or not has nothing to do with it. Lets just say it is. you are now an AP. ( I believe you are an AP due to BJ and VP) the casino knows you purposely run off other players. Now they think all AP are the same. PLEASE tell me you really don't think its a good idea to let casinos know you run off players.

Quote: AxelWolf

Your running off the other player intentionally that costs the casino money. DI/DC Possible or not has nothing to do with it. Lets just say it is. you are now an AP. ( I believe you are an AP due to BJ and VP) the casino knows you purposely run off other players. Now they think all AP are the same. PLEASE tell me you really don't think its a good idea to let casinos know you run off players.

Look, the dealers know I run off players, and they don't like me running off Georges and I generally don't run off players that the dealers and/or the casino don't want me to run off.

Generally the way I run off strangers that I don't know is by watching them lose! The same way the dealers run off players. You encourage them to make stupid bets for too much money and they lose more quickly.

But if I can shoot against their bets and make it go quicker, I will!

Trust me, there's nobody in any casino that has any problem with the people I run off.

Players that aren't tipping the dealers like it when you run them off even if they leave with money. They only want to work when they are being tipped!

The casino doesn't care if a player loses and leaves. They love that!

I think maybe you've just got the wrong idea all together, but casinos generally love me.

I'll say it again though: I *used to* care about random strangers winning as opposed to losing. *NOW* I don't. Maybe that makes it more clear. If they are a George, I will not run them off for the benefit of the dealers. If they are annoying I will try harder to get rid of them without talking to them ideally. I am very much in tune with the dealers though. Very much. And not doing anything that the casino would be unhappy about.

Every single situation is different, but I do want as much control over what's going on at the table as possible. And that control, ideally, is a control that the box person is 100% okay with! As long as others lose a lot more than I win on that day, there's no problem. Just try to keep things moving just like they want it and take a little bit and go.

Ahigh I really don't think you need to go to a casino. I think you could get someone to book all your action from your own table. I bet 20 people would jump at the chance. WOW no Interference no BS faster action home field advantage.

There are actually tables out there that I find easier to play on than my table at home believe it or not. Besides that, I want someone to book my action who can handle paying me. I have found a couple places that have enough higher limit player to take my action. We are at the courting phase and so far they have no problems taking my action and letting me shoot the way I want to shoot.

We will see how long it continues.

I know you think you're smart that anybody with a couple thousand bucks would take my action and/or my money. Good for you. Nice little joke. But whatever.

I'm confused i thought you said in a prior post you didn't bet much. I Guarantee plenty of people could take any action you would give and even let you shoot wherever you want. Just pick a spot bet small on the table and let them take the rest of the action.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm confused i thought you said in a prior post you didn't bet much. I Guarantee plenty of people could take any action you would give and even let you shoot wherever you want. Just pick a spot bet small on the table and let them take the rest of the action.

In case you didn't understand my answer: NO.

Look, I'm not your little puppet. I do my bets with the casino I chose often just minutes before I chose to go there, so go fly a kite. I said no.

I know you're making a point that you think I'm a loser.

Come and put up money against me in the casino! Come on, YOU do it. Don't tell me you're afraid of paying $0.02 per roll to the casino. I know you aren't a cheap bastard.

I'll take off the whole day at work and bet against you until one of us has the other person's $3000 if you want to go toe-to-toe on this.

You are just talking out of your ass trying to make some kind of point that I won't do your little deal. It's ridiculous.

Let's do it you and me in the casino unless you're afraid of the edge on the don't pass line betting against me!

You're whole suggestion is preposterous!

$0.02 per roll per $5 don't is nothing, dude. Surely you're not balking on that to bet against me!!!

I have don'ts bet against me. I exclaim "WINNER" as they walk away. Join the club.

Hmmmm. I don't know why you seem to be irritated with me? I have always been nice to you. Go back and read. I think you may have missed some of the things I have said due to the fact that at the time you weren't concerned with my layman posts. and only now since only you and me seem to have insomnia I get the villainish zcore, Alan, treatment. Remember I even said, "I respect what your doing if you truly are not in it for the money." I have always asked respectful questions. I may have even defended you... at least in spirit. I never implied you are a loser on or off the craps table. I may have tossed in some of that lower form of debate, you know sarcasm. But who hasn't ? Heck! this would be a boring debate without it. I even agree you have some haters that may be out to get you. I'm NOT one of them. You seem to forget I want DI/DC to be true. I was one of the better shooters when I tried this, so much so some others stopped trying and just had me always throw. Prior to starting everyone had a deal no matter who was better or worst no one got left behind.

Anyways.... I am not trying to implied your a craps loser (even though I thought you said you were overall) I just want to bring some logic (in my mind) to this debate about DI and try to get to a conclusion somehow. The only reason I read this debate is in hopes you will come up with a way to prove it's possible.

The entire puppet thing is just way off base. I didn't come close to asking you to do anything puppet like. It was quite the opposite. I SUGGESTED and offered you options trying to let you direct how the strings were pulled . I'm not sure If Betting on whether or not you can do something is the best way to see if you have an advantage perhaps a math guru can shed some light on that. Maybe you can roll a number ever so slightly more then it should come up. That dose not mean you can beat craps. To me it would be like playing one HU sit n go with a very small edge only the house wins. I believe the house has an edge when ANY non cheater is playing barring BS crap like over payments. The way I suggested would bring you less heat, If you win big house dose not lose much that's good for longevity , if you lose at least the casino dose not profit, way less tipping involved, less worrying about short rolls, more documented rolls, you or the booker could quit when they wanted. Perhaps the booker becomes a believer after a few hrs and want to bet with you not against you. Instead of losing 3k he could make 3k. I think quite a few people here would love some opportunities to bet craps with you or against you.

Quote: MrV

You are not an AP. Never were, never will be. By your own words, yours is a random throw. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. It's all LUCK.

Now, now. The OP has described his technique in an accompanying thread: "I will say that just using a golden touch throw with a hard 8 set generally has allowed me to throw fewer sevens, and all of that is just following what they say and doing motor memory. The trickiest part about it is getting both dice to fly through the air in tandem like fighter jets in formation rotating with the same speed and landing at the exact same time. You might think you're doing it, but my sound-based triggered photography tells the truth of how well you are doing, and I had no idea how bad my lands looked until I got my tools working."

Quote: AxelWolf

Hmmmm. I don't know why you seem to be irritated with me? I have always been nice to you. Go back and read. I think you may have missed some of the things I have said due to the fact that at the time you weren't concerned with my layman posts. and only now since only you and me seem to have insomnia I get the villainish zcore, Alan, treatment. Remember I even said, "I respect what your doing if you truly are not in it for the money." I have always asked respectful questions. I may have even defended you... at least in spirit. I never implied you are a loser on or off the craps table. I may have tossed in some of that lower form of debate, you know sarcasm. But who hasn't ? Heck! this would be a boring debate without it. I even agree you have some haters that may be out to get you. I'm NOT one of them. You seem to forget I want DI/DC to be true. I was one of the better shooters when I tried this, so much so some others stopped trying and just had me always throw. Prior to starting everyone had a deal no matter who was better or worst no one got left behind.

Anyways.... I am not trying to implied your a craps loser (even though I thought you said you were overall) I just want to bring some logic (in my mind) to this debate about DI and try to get to a conclusion somehow. The only reason I read this debate is in hopes you will come up with a way to prove it's possible.

The entire puppet thing is just way off base. I didn't come close to asking you to do anything puppet like. It was quite the opposite. I SUGGESTED and offered you options trying to let you direct how the strings were pulled . I'm not sure If Betting on whether or not you can do something is the best way to see if you have an advantage perhaps a math guru can shed some light on that. Maybe you can roll a number ever so slightly more then it should come up. That dose not mean you can beat craps. To me it would be like playing one HU sit n go with a very small edge only the house wins. I believe the house has an edge when ANY non cheater is playing barring BS crap like over payments. The way I suggested would bring you less heat, If you win big house dose not lose much that's good for longevity , if you lose at least the casino dose not profit, way less tipping involved, less worrying about short rolls, more documented rolls, you or the booker could quit when they wanted. Perhaps the booker becomes a believer after a few hrs and want to bet with you not against you. Instead of losing 3k he could make 3k. I think quite a few people here would love some opportunities to bet craps with you or against you.

Sorry Axel. I woke up knowing I had crossed a line with my posts in my sleepy state after coming home from a win. I'm glad I didn't let my overconfidence cost me money as I did come home a winner last night. I'm not going to edit any of the posts, but I will apologize here for what I said and I didn't mean to address you that way. I got a little bit emotional. Part of that emotion is from being a lifetime loser and feeling that everyone thinks I am failing because I am losing.