Golden Oldie Moving to Vegas
Are there $50 min. bet tables? If so, about how many casinos offer same? How many per casino?
Double Deck: My understanding (from reading forums) is one cannot go back and forth between 1 and 2 hands. Is this true? How deep is Pen on a $50 min. table?
Shoes: How deep is Pen on $50 min bet tables? Would a $50 to $600 spread stay under radar? Is going back and forth between 1 and 2 hands allowed? Is $20k cash enough to get through one shoe?
How many casinos is doable in a single day rotation?
Not being a shoe player, my plan would be to start with fresh shoes, no more than 2 players.
My exit point would be -57% (beyond normal negative). Logic being. Why sit through this negative deck when there is a positive deck waiting for me to find it?
I cant count two tables. But I can do a percentage count on 6 decks. Less than 5 people in the US understand this way of counting.
There would be 4 increments with the bulk of large bets coming from the 3rd increment. 1 hand at $50. 2 hands at $100 each
2 hands at $300 or $400 each. 4th is rare. 2 hands at $600 each.
Enough for now. There may be more posts before answers. As questions come to mind I jot them down before I forget.
My objective is to profit $2mil in 10 Years. It may require relocating. If so, I could play 300 days easy. Been there. Done that. Regardless, my spread would need to double his.
Dont carry, win, or lose $10k in any casino in one day. Avoid structuring as MDawg puts it. Bosox points out one doesnt want to be forced to leave a positive shoe due to lack of funds.
Therefore, large bets will need to be adjusted. Go 60% in the 1st half. 59% in the 2nd half of the deck. 57% creates too much volatility. As does HILO.
Also, stay away from dives where the pit boss and bartender faint at the sight of a green or black chip. It would be nice to cross those off the list before driving there to prospect.
Between multiple decks, unfavorable rules, long cuts, betting spreads and unfavorable odds, they can now also spot a card counter like a cheap hooker…not to mention facial recognition technology and databases to identify APs.
Plant yourself at $50 or $100 table and count cards. It took them a few days to tell Dana White and Ben Affleck to pound salt and it wasn’t their faces that did it. Their “method of “play” gets spotted in minutes.
I would assume once one single casino has ID’d you….they all get your picture.
What then?
Still I think it's a barometer worth considering. The successful one gets backed off and just keeps going back. That would scare me. I did it once and found myself surrounded.Quote: MDawgMoses – real quick – I didn’t mean to say that “structuring” was something that would be thrown necessarily in the face of a blackjack card counter. Just that possibly, a person who is trying hard to stay under that 10K / 24 hour cash in / cash out might be inadvertently guilty of that. Or that a casino might try to pressure an anonymous player into identifying himself, under guise of their need to file a CTR or SAR.
Putting together a game plan. Your input helps a great deal. Thanks.
But I intend to find out. Get in, get paid, get out, dont get greedy. There are enough casinos to play quanity hands as opposed to quality. No?
Hmmm. What if I do both?🤔
Quote: mosesTDVegas: That was my thought. Evidently, Im wrong.
But I intend to find out. Get in, get paid, get out, dont get greedy. There are enough casinos to play quanity hands as opposed to quality. No?
Hmmm. What if I do both?🤔
The problem is once ONE casino figures it out…they all have.
I’m also of the mindset that any attempt at structuring, not winning too much, trying to stay under the radar, etc….the casinos have seen every and any tactic. The cat always catches the mouse…eventually.
I never under estimate the EITS. They know, they always know. Question is. Do they care? Not so much if I stay within casino tolerance.Quote: TDVegasThe problem is once ONE casino figures it out…they all have.
I’m also of the mindset that any attempt at structuring, not winning too much, trying to stay under the radar, etc….the casinos have seen every and any tactic. The cat always catches the mouse…eventually.
Problem is there are so many forum millionaires socking it to Vegas blackjack tables. Im not sure of their tolerances.
I mean 35 to 50 backoffs in a few years. And still be welcomed back at most tabkes? Amazing. What nice people they all must be.🤔
LV Bear used to put out a list.
$80k to $100k annually wouldnt be worth a lifestyle change for me. If I ask a casino to up the minimum bet from $25 to $50 is like putting a target on my back. No. I dont get backed off. But I dont get a fair game either. This is worse.
My experience is the spread is based on table minimum as opposed to the minimum you're actually playing.
In order to reach my financial objective I will need to play $50 min. tables.
Quote: mosesProblem is there are so many forum millionaires socking it to Vegas blackjack tables. Im not sure of their tolerances.
LOL…While there may be some “forum millionaires” playing blackjack and are serious about their play…I’ll wager money, if they have “millions”, that their millions were not accumulated off Vegas black jack tables.
Me thinks someone has gotten your ear and talked a good game. The AP players out here that are more than willing to tell me they are AP’s without actually knowing I may be tied to a casino…usually drive Lyft or some other type of job. I’ve yet to see one living the high life of millions. The 25 year old car doesn’t help their argument.
Poker players is a different story.
Quote: TDVegasLOL…While there may be some “forum millionaires” playing blackjack and are serious about their play…I’ll wager money, if they have “millions”, that their millions were not accumulated off Vegas black jack tables.
Me thinks someone has gotten your ear and talked a good game. The AP players out here that are more than willing to tell me they are AP’s without actually knowing I may be tied to a casino…usually drive Lyft or some other type of job. I’ve yet to see one living the high life of millions. The 25 year old car doesn’t help their argument.
Poker players is a different story.
Dating back to August 2013:highly successful blackjack posters were like flies on dog crap in a pumpkin patch. Posting of success and riches were bountiful.
Now there is the successful one who floats in like a butterfly and stings like a bee to profit $80k to $100k a year. Evidently, according to his/her posts, there are numerous others soaking casinos for even more.
The other is the self professed Greatest of All Time who threatens to blow up buildings in the event of losing sessions.
Gawd forbid, the GOAT loses?😲
Sooo. If they can do it? 🤔 Why couldn't a workaholic at blackjack like me?
Quote: mosesDating back to August 2013:highly successful blackjack posters were like flies on dog crap in a pumpkin patch. Posting of success and riches were bountiful.
Now there is the successful one who floats in like a butterfly and stings like a bee to profit $80k to $100k a year. Evidently, according to his/her posts, there are numerous others soaking casinos for even more.
The other is the self professed Greatest of All Time who threatens to blow up buildings in the event of losing sessions.
Gawd forbid, the GOAT loses?😲
Sooo. If they can do it? 🤔 Why couldn't a workaholic at blackjack like me?
Because I think you are being lied to and or mislead by these “rich forum members” who claim “bountiful riches” off the blackjack table if you merely apply yourself.
Quote: billryanmoses is on some sort of crusade against a member who is suspended and can't defend himself. Not that any of these attacks are worth responding to.
No crusades for me Mr.Ryan. Im seriously considering a life change. The game has virtually dried up here.
One learns alot about biz, financial concerns, and investments during the process of making their 1st million.
One learns alot of life and themself when losing $2 mil. That's what was lost in the Perfect Storm. I dont need the money. But that is the only thing left to replace.
Why the need to control freedom of speech Mr. Ryan? Hasnt that already been overdone at other forums? WOV stands for integrity. No?
Quote: TDVegasBecause I think you are being lied to and or mislead by these “rich forum members” who claim “bountiful riches” off the blackjack table if you merely apply yourself.
Apply myself has been done. I have a gift (or curse) to know exactly what remains and has been played in a single deck of cards. I bought the products. Studied and used them extensively while playing more single deck hands than anyone over the last decade.
Ive never believed a 6 deck shoe could be beat. Shame on the casinos for even offering as the only game in town.
But maybe Im wrong? I guess there is only one way to find out.
Either it's lies or the answer lies within me.
Quote: mosesApply myself has been done. I have a gift (or curse) to know exactly what remains and has been played in a single deck of cards. I bought the products. Studied and used them extensively while playing more single deck hands than anyone over the last decade.
Ive never believed a 6 deck shoe could be beat. Shame on the casinos for even offering as the only game in town.
But maybe Im wrong? I guess there is only one way to find out.
Either it's lies or the answer lies within me.
You’ve been a card counting Maverick for a decade or more and are just now talking up the potential riches to come for yourself?
Quote: TDVegasYou’ve been a card counting Maverick for a decade or more and are just now talking up the potential riches to come for yourself?
Im just a wee bit insulted at the word card counter. I do so much more than that. But that's okay.
I think my first backoff (after returning from a 20 year hiatus) was in 2011. Id like to think this particular pit boss were/are friends and a mutual respect has grown over the years. Anyway, he was right and I was wrong. So I went back and apologized. Of course, he was never going to let me play again and warned Id better not test him. But he did take the time to teach me about casino tolerance. He also gave me a phrase, "never insult the EITS."
From that, blackjack has served as an income supplement to my other investments. I live comfortably. But not extravagant.
The potential riches will come from a quantity of places tp play. No?
Quote: mosesIs there an updated list of casinos that still offer blackjack in Vegas. Roughly 50% of casinos have stopped offering the game in Reno.
Lol, BJ is the most popular pit game, why would the casinos up here get rid of them? Yes, the low limit casinos like Western Village that had $2 BJ minimums are now gone since reopening but all the major casinos still have BJ, including $25, 50 and 100 minimums. Lake Tahoe, about 30 minutes away that caters to millionaires have higher limits. And we sre talking about 3:2, not 6:5 payouts.
Circus also stopped. Harrahs is gone. Bonanza stopped. Cal Neva reduced. Not sure about Sands and a couple of other buffet jumpers. Boomtown reduced what wasnt much in the first place.Quote: VegasriderLol, BJ is the most popular pit game, why would the casinos up here get rid of them? Yes, the low limit casinos like Western Village that had $2 BJ minimums are now gone since reopening but all the major casinos still have BJ, including $25, 50 and 100 minimums. Lake Tahoe, about 30 minutes away that caters to millionaires have higher limits. And we sre talking about 3:2, not 6:5 payouts.
GSR, Atlantis, and Peppermill are booming.
Tahoe/Millionaires? Im not allowed to play in Tahoe and Im a peanut player.
I saw a list of about 80 casinos that offered blackjack in Vegas. I read in threads it was more like 40. Maybe more like 10 when it comes to major casinos offering a fair game?
Get a real nice RV, and hit all the casinos driving around the country. There is some video on YouTube where a professional BJ player who drove around to all of the casinos, posting his win and loss totals in addition to the videos of him getting getting 86'd as an AP. But what made the video interesting is that he knew all the rules and gaming laws from state to state. As many casinos made up there own rules along the way just to screw with him but at the end, making the casinos look like idiots. A must watch in my opinion.
Quote: VegasriderYou can't consider those dive small casinos as a realistic place to make money. The size of your wager would immediately exceed the table max, lol. Those casinos have been nonexistent to me. You may want to add the Nugget to the list of plays, they usually have a $50 minimum table on the weekends. But realistically only 4 casinos in Reno, but there is Tahoe.
Get a real nice RV, and hit all the casinos driving around the country. There is some video on YouTube where a professional BJ player who drove around to all of the casinos, posting his win and loss totals in addition to the videos of him getting getting 86'd as an AP. But what made the video interesting is that he knew all the rules and gaming laws from state to state. As many casinos made up there own rules along the way just to screw with him but at the end, making the casinos look like idiots. A must watch in my opinion.
1st paragraph is spot on. Nice folks at El Dorado. But only 6.5 single deck since takeover. Silver Lagacy. Rarely got pen worth the walk from the parking garage. Some have had a hard time at the Nugget. I should check it out again. 2 places in Tahoe. Im banned so it's been awhile.
2nd paragraph. You dont mean Wendover? 😅😅 My gypsy days are behind me. For me, it's Vegas or bust as they say.
Quote: TDVegasHaven't the casinos put the brakes on those who think they can just arrive in Vegas, plant themselves and pull down $200,000 or more per year card counting?
I don't think he makes $200K - maybe half that
but KJ has stated elsewhere that he leaves after he shows his Max bet
I believe his strategy is to keep bouncing around to different casinos never staying at any one for a longish period of time
I also believe he has stated or implied that some casinos know he is an AP but tolerate him because they see him as not being greedy because of the way he plays
in other words - the fact that he leaves quickly right after betting big makes him acceptable to them
if I've misstated any of this I'm sure he'll correct me when he gets back - but I don't think any of it is misstated
he's been doing this for a lot of years - I'm not sure exactly how many - but I'm pretty sure it's more than 10
.
Quote: lilredroosterI don't think he makes $200K - maybe half that
but KJ has stated elsewhere that he leaves after he shows his Max bet
I believe his strategy is to keep bouncing around to different casinos never staying at any one for a longish period of time
I also believe he has stated or implied that some casinos know he is an AP but tolerate him because they see him as not being greedy because of the way he plays
in other words - the fact that he leaves quickly right after betting big makes him acceptable to them
.
I qouted $200k based on playing $50 min. and doubling the spread amounts. I think your friend plays $25 min.
To use Mr. Ryan's theme. I was crucified for years on forums at the notion of making a modest amount and then leaving. This goes hand in hand with maintaining a solid relationship and casino tolerance.
I mean somebody should win every now and then or the game isnt worth playing.
What I dont understand is your friends crusade to get more newbies to play by constantly speaking to his success. Yes, maybe it's only a few. But it only takes one to screw it all up.
Plus now the newbie is sitting in your seat. When did winning stop being enough?
I would say about 6 sessions over 4 casinos per day is about all the work I want to do. Sometimes you leave and revisit later. Never more than 3 sessions in one casino shift per day.
The goal is to get in 300 quality hands per day. A range of 1000 to 1500 per week. 16 decks is about 100 hands. Somedays 4 sessions is enough to feed the bulldog. Other days 12 sessions is break even. The equation wins 60% of sessions overall. This leaves 40% loss and ties.
A typical week is 20 sessions is 12-8. But 11-7-2: 8-7-5: 9-8-3; 13-5-6 were the weeks leading up to Covid. Large Bet plays were 224.5 wins 146 loss. Ties are treated as a no at bat.
The stories say Vegas is Big time. Really, a $50 min changes the dynanics?
Quote: TDVegasThe problem is once ONE casino figures it out…they all have.
I’m also of the mindset that any attempt at structuring, not winning too much, trying to stay under the radar, etc….the casinos have seen every and any tactic. The cat always catches the mouse…eventually.
It doesn't matter how much you win, it is how much you cash out that triggers the CTR and potential structuring. Just don't cash in the chips everytime you win. Hld chips to use the next time so you don't have to keep buying in for large amounts. Cash the chips out slowly over a long period of time. If you cash out a couple thousand dollars a day you will be fine.
Quote: DRichIt doesn't matter how much you win, it is how much you cash out that triggers the CTR and potential structuring. Just don't cash in the chips everytime you win. Hld chips to use the next time so you don't have to keep buying in for large amounts. Cash the chips out slowly over a long period of time. If you cash out a couple thousand dollars a day you will be fine.
That actually would be structuring!
Quote: unJonThat actually would be structuring!
I'm actually not certain about that if you could advance the argument that you were holding the chips for potential play to be done at a later time.
I mean, yes maybe, if they could absolutely prove that you were doing this for the specific purposes of avoiding being identified and documented, then sure.
Casino chips are not, "Currency," in the sense of being legal tender. They are a negotiable instrument to be exchanged either to or for legal tender, but only to that casino/chain of casinos/or other casinos that will accept chips from an otherwise unaffiliated casino as a negotiable instrument, if any. I imagine that the policies on this vary, but it doesn't matter if they do, because the chips are themselves not currency.
I don’t disagree with you, but DRich posited that the chips were being held to avoid a CTR . . .Quote: Mission146I'm actually not certain about that if you could advance the argument that you were holding the chips for potential play to be done at a later time.
I mean, yes maybe, if they could absolutely prove that you were doing this for the specific purposes of avoiding being identified and documented, then sure.
Casino chips are not, "Currency," in the sense of being legal tender. They are a negotiable instrument to be exchanged either to or for legal tender, but only to that casino/chain of casinos/or other casinos that will accept chips from an otherwise unaffiliated casino as a negotiable instrument, if any. I imagine that the policies on this vary, but it doesn't matter if they do, because the chips are themselves not currency.
I would imagine if they're actually enforcing all of these rules that they're pissing off a lot of whales
and a lot of others who may not be whales but who might regularly drop a few thou at the tables
that can't be a good thing for them
.
Quote: unJonI don’t disagree with you, but DRich posited that the chips were being held to avoid a CTR . . .
Partial quote, "...Hide chips to be used the next time..."
I'm inclined to find people innocent, so I assume that he meant to be used (for play) the next time.
Quote: unJonThat actually would be structuring!
Yes it would, but like everything if you do it smartly you can probably get away with it.
Quote: DRichYes it would, but like everything if you do it smartly you can probably get away with it.
Damn it, DRich! Now I lost the argument! You have admitted the guilt of this theoretical person.
Partial quote.Quote: Mission146
I'm inclined to find people innocent . . .
That’s called naïvety. Wow, go iPhone automatically adding the dots on top of the i.
I like to assume the worst, so all the surprises are pleasant.
Quote: unJonPartial quote.
That’s called naïvety. Wow, go iPhone automatically adding the dots on top of the i.
I like to assume the worst, so all the surprises are pleasant.
I didn't say that I don't assume the worst about people; I do. I'm inclined to find them innocent in court.
Quote: Mission146I didn't say that I don't assume the worst about people; I do. I'm inclined to find them innocent in court.
He would let me buy $500 chips. Id cash them and go bet at various locations as they came up. I never thought about structuring. The idea was not to get robbed. A $10K bulge is obvious. 20 chips. Not so much.
Meantime, people tend not to carry 100 singles all over the place.
When you chip up, there is no CTR. Its only for cash transactions, so you would have to go to the cage in the event you cash for $10k. Even $3000 in cash is recorded, but no forms are required. They just want to make sure any additional transactions don't exceed $10k.
Carrying cash, buying in for cash just draws more attention and its recorded. Always sit down with chips.
Never cash out your chips, or have at least keep a good bankroll with them.
Quote: DRichYes it would, but like everything if you do it smartly you can probably get away with it.
But you’re going to have to continue to do it. One timers, here and there’s likely won’t have an issue. A card counter is going to have to do this on a regular basis.
My argument is that eventually one or several casinos will figure out what you’re doing if there’s a structuring attempt. Obviously there is. Once one knows you’re doing it and it’s tied to card counting…they all know.
I dont think Im setting of any alarms playing $25 to 50 min tables with $500 and $1,000 buy ins.
Bank account, $100s in one pocket. The rest and car keys in the other. Cards and coupons in the back. 😄
Quote: TDVegasBut you’re going to have to continue to do it. One timers, here and there’s likely won’t have an issue. A card counter is going to have to do this on a regular basis.
My argument is that eventually one or several casinos will figure out what you’re doing if there’s a structuring attempt. Obviously there is. Once one knows you’re doing it and it’s tied to card counting…they all know.
I always assume they know. Question is do they care? Casino Tolerance. My experience has been large casinos dont sweat the small stuff as much as the small ones. I dont hide or hoard chips.
If I had it to do all over again. I wouldve never played one hand in a casino that didnt offer a green chip minimum.
So there is somewhere between 30 and 80 casinos that offer blackjack. Any idea how many are small and/or intolarant?
WOV Casino Survey site
The problem is that the Blackjack Survey hasn't been updated since Jul 2019, and the other surveys haven't been updated since 2014-2017.
I always thought this Casino Games Survey was a great feature of WOV; it's sad to see it fall into this state.
My neighbor asked for a business card for cutting trees with my bucket truck. I said that i dont have time
Quote: gordonm888The Wizard of Vegas site has a survey on which games are in which casinos -at least, Vegas Casinos. This includes blackjack games, their rules and their minimums.
WOV Casino Survey site
The problem is that the Blackjack Survey hasn't been updated since Jul 2019, and the other surveys haven't been updated since 2014-2017.
I always thought this Casino Games Survey was a great feature of WOV; it's sad to see it fall into this state.
Thank you very much Gordon888. That shrinks the list down a gooid bit. About 25 casinos worth checking. About 3 days of prospecting should be enough time to provide a visual?
Excellent work.
Is there a dealer shoe cut that make a game unplayable? Most are 1..2, 1.5, 1.7.
Are Database Participants to be avoided for was playing with reasonable spreads?
