Did the lightbulb just go off about tipping$ ?
Quote: beachbumbabsUmmm.
It's not often I can say this board changed my life, but today is one of those days. Not sure I will ever leave my toothbrush accessible again.
This is a thing? OMG. I'm completely repulsed.
As to tipping. I'm a demiGeorge.
However, I saw something done a while back at a table, and I would like to ask why I haven't seen more of it. First seen at a craps table (2 way place 6/8), then a bj table same chain but 1000 miles away.
Bet placed for dealers. Bet wins. Dealer takes win but leaves original chip working, just like player's bet.
Genius.
Tried it somewhere else when I felt like tip as you go was worth doing; was told house doesn't allow it.
Why is the default most places to take both chips, other than -ev game? Why would some houses allow it and not others? Is there an accepted way to ask for your played tips to be handled this way?
I would be placing bets for dealers much more often if they worked them, since I would get that much better value for my tip money. They would make more in the long run, because I would keep them in when the table's running good. And I'm not seeing a constant drain on my wins to nearly the same percentage (similar to the play - til you lose promo chip, instead of take the chip win or lose type.)
At a casino I worked at many moons ago, a player tipped $2, said for me to play it however I like, and he left. Oh hell yeah!! I don't remember specifically the starting bets, but probably did a $2 four, it hit then went to a $5 nine, it hit, went to a $12 six, it hit, went to a $24 six and a $2 hard six.....Long story short, I got it up to $150 on the six and eight (or thereabouts) with some good action on the hard ways, and had already locked up at least $200. That guy was rolling for quite a while. When I got tapped out, the next dealer was a total b**** and took down our bets. I think he was scared he'd get fired because we weren't actually allowed to do that. The shooter was still shooting when I got back from break. :( Dealers probably made more money than all the players that roll, all from that $2 tip. LOL It's sad to see a 45 minute roll and everyone still has minimum on the pass, a $6 or maybe $12 six/eight, and nothing else.
I don't play craps often, but when I do, I go straight f***ing HAM.
On an off-note, I and several members here witnessed Wizard getting tipped by a dealer when we were playing poker at the WOV Spring Fling thing.
Quote: RigondeauxI said you were taking something without paying for it. This is objectively true. Somebody is doing work for you, and in exchange you give them nothing. You are getting their work. You are not paying for it.
Here - in my opinion - is your misconception: The dealer does not work for the player. They work for the casino. If you don't believe that, try sending them on a break and dealing to yourself for a while. The dealers do work for the casino, and in exchange the casino underpays them.
I live in an environment (Switzerland) where tipping is not expected (but possible). I have never met anyone here in the service industry that believes "You know what would be great? A lower base salary in exchange for (a chance to) higher tips."
Quote: CanyoneroI live in an environment (Switzerland) where tipping is not expected (but possible).
When I eat seafood, I like it with LOTSA tartar sauce. When dining at a restaurant in Australia, the server brought a tiny spoonful of tartar sauce in a picturesque little seashell. I explained I used a LOT of tartar sauce, and asked if she could she bring a larger portion. She brought 2 more sea shells of sauce. I said she was getting warmer. She said she would keep a keen eye on me, and I would not have to do without.
Long story short, it was a great meal, and she kept the tartar sauce supply sufficient for my needs. After paying my check, I rose to leave and gave her a 10 percent tip. She could not stop thanking me, walking with me all the way to the door to the restaurant. Of course, in Australia (in 1998, at least), they apparently paid staff a fair wage, and tips were very rare. I have always thought that was a much better system than the gimmie-gimmie-gimmie tip system we have in this country.
Quote: beachbumbabs<snip>I would be placing bets for dealers much more often if they worked them, since I would get that much better value for my tip money. They would make more in the long run, because I would keep them in when the table's running good. And I'm not seeing a constant drain on my wins to nearly the same percentage (similar to the play - til you lose promo chip, instead of take the chip win or lose type.)
beachbumbabs,
Instead of placing the tip wager in front of your bet, place it on top. Then, when your bet wins, slide the winnings from the tip to the dealer, and place the original tip wager atop your next bet. This way, if you get on a hot streak, the dealer(s)* receive many times the original tip.
Drawbacks:
1. If the first try loses, the dealer gets nothing: in that case, just say "Sorry WE didn't win!" Most dealers will understand.
2. If your own wager is at the table max, obviously you cannot do this.
3. If you split, you're obligated to match the tip. Naturally, you're not obligated to give the "additional" tip winnings, but not doing so looks really tacky.
4. If you DD, you needn't match the tip, but not doing so looks really tacky.
5. If you try this with a 50¢ or $2.50 chip, be sure to tell the dealer not to color it up. For example, if your tip chip is pink, tell the dealer, "Keep the pink." You rarely have to tell the same dealer twice: they're pretty good at remembering.
*I say dealerS, because most casinos pool the dealers' tips.
Hope this helps!
Dog Hand
A casino dealer goes to a few weeks of school and ends up dealing cards on the casino floor for minimum wage. He is effectively in a career with the chance to move up the ladder via the pit, security, surveillance, etc. Dealers will stay in their position because they don't qualify for the additional responsibility or don't want additional responsibility or they are making a good wage from tips and like their position. Clearly, the game they deal has wide variability for tipping. A $10 6:5 BJ table on a Tuesday night at Ellis Island in January will likely yield far less in tips than a Saturday night $50 3:2 Blackjack table at Caesar's palace. And different games have different tipping scenarios. It's variable. But the three largest common denominators for tipping is player winning, dealer customer service, and player willingness. Playing willingness is governed by a factor of etiquette (is tipping expected), attitude (do I like tipping), mood (do I factor in previous losses / wins into the amount I tip), and drunkenness (inhibitions are down).
If tipping just went away via a NRS statute, I think most dealers would walk.
For housekeeping, you either clean well or you don't on a particular day. It is a basic skill requiring labor and attention to detail. There is no opportunity to advance and you know that they are getting paid very close to minimum wage for menial full-time work. Some are far better than others. We had a maid leave someone else's BRA in our room (leading my wife into a panic, of course thank the lord SHE knew I was never in the room when she wasn't, leading me to ask her if she was sleeping with the maid, and whether there was video).
Frankly, it is completely up to you on whether you believe that what they are making is what they should be making, and tip accordingly. For me, I believe that minimum wage should be higher than what they are making, and I tip accordingly.
No, I don't tip grocery store workers (you could make the choice to shop at a unionized grocery store like Safeway) where workers are paid more. So there are industries where people do make less than you thin k they should and there is little you can do about it except agree to minimum wage hikes for all.
I also tip less at unionized casinos than I do at other shops.
Quote: DogHandHere's all you need to know about AP tipping:
Go to this link:
https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?30714-Tipping-Psychology-vs-EV
and page down to find "Dog Hand's Tipping Guidelines to Ensure Longevity"
Dog Hand
lol, this was hilarious DogHand!
i'm a moderate to light tipper and that's only when the dealer has clearly made an effort above the rest of the crew to make my time more enjoyable. however, i haven't ever seen anybody's argument FOR tipping persuade me in the lightest. in any context.
a majority of the world has plenty of small businesses that survive just fine without tipping. both small and large businesses. the world won't come crashing down if we all did away with tipping altogether. just means up top someone takes a paycut and has more fixed overhead costs. more risk for the business, but the world will find a way to survive.
Quote: CalderDon't know if it is. In Wisconsin players often tip by betting for the crew and specifying "player control." If it hits, the player may specify how to handle the win: parlay, drop part and let the rest ride, use the win to place another number, lock it all up, etc.
Though a couple weeks ago I was told by boxmen at two different casinos in Deadwood, SD that it was against state law to allow player control, though no one seemed to know why. I could only take them at their word. While $1 place bets were rounded up (a $1 placed 6 and the crew dropped $3), they miss out on those parlayed hardways...
Calder,
I very much enjoyed your bet comments -- and the comments of others, like BBB, Canyonero, and mamat -- about tipping options (yes, no, or maybe). I wonder if the rules change from state to state or from casino to casino.
For example, when I began gambling at casinos about 20 years ago (mostly) in southern Mississippi, I read a lot about options one might use when placing bets for dealers. When I tried to place bets for dealers with "player control" at the craps table, I was told (in more than one Biloxi casino), "Buddy, we don't do it THAT way." So, my dealer bets had to stand alone. Dealer bets (base amount and winnings) were immediately swept into the toke box if they won, and immediately locked up by the House if they lost. Same way for dealer bets on UTH and other table games.
I'd love to know if other Biloxi (or Mississippi) gamblers have had different dealer bet options where they played. And, I'm also interested in knowing what other gambling venues (casinos, states, or countries) allow, especially if what they allow differs from what I encountered.
Quote: CanyoneroHere - in my opinion - is your misconception: The dealer does not work for the player. They work for the casino. If you don't believe that, try sending them on a break and dealing to yourself for a while. The dealers do work for the casino, and in exchange the casino underpays them.
I live in an environment (Switzerland) where tipping is not expected (but possible). I have never met anyone here in the service industry that believes "You know what would be great? A lower base salary in exchange for (a chance to) higher tips."
Now this is a decent argument.
However, i would say that when someone makes min wage or less and tips are expected, while the customer is not the employer or boss, the are the one designated to pay most of the labor costs.
As i said, that happens in any case. Wages ware never delivered by any other source. Either you pay a higher bill and the boss pays workers or you pay a lower bill and customers pay them on the honor system. But all of a restaurant orcasinos money comes from customers.
There are pros and cons. But Europe is generally much much more labor friendly than the us. Here the majority of tipped jobs are lower middle class-waiter, valet, dealer, limo or taxi (pre uber). While most other service jobs pay around the poverty line.
I think this is largely because tips circmvent market pressures because most people gain utility from tipping, knowing that the worker gets the money. It's a personal interaction.
That's why many players are upset to learn of tip pools and some tip less when the find out.
Quote: RigondeauxNow this is a decent argument.
Hah, now there's a cheap shot by implication.
Look, you may not like my argument, but you never refuted it successfully.
If I see someone repeatedly telling customers they need to finish paying his/her salary I'll laugh my butt off.
If they go to management to complain that customers aren't fulfilling their salary obligation my donkey will also laugh his ass off.
If I can find anything else around with a posterior it will also be laughing.
So moan and groan and wave your hands about and proclaim you're right --- doesn't change a thing.
Thank you -- now don't forget to tip the waitresses.
It's one thing to debate a tip on a $500 meal vs. a $5 meal but to not tip at all in the US is an argument that cannot be made. In most states servers are not paid even minimum wage. They receive servers wages and it is understood that tipping is a requirement. They are actually taxed based on a percentage of total receipts. So yes, if you do not tip your server it is theft of service. No way to argue against it.
Dealers, maids, drivers, and many others at least make minimum wage. Also there are instances where servers are unionized with established fixed wages. If you know this then a proper amount is open to debate in these rare exceptions. Otherwise waitresses and waiters need to be tipped.
Quote: MaxPenIn my experience, non tippers are rarely people you'd want to be associated with. They're often very entitled, ignorant or narcissistic people who have never worked in the service industry and quite possibly haven't worked a day in their lives. In essence, being a non tipper is a sign of poor character.
I wouldn't know, I don't hang out with any. I'm a tipper myself, but it's irrelevant to the argument.
If you want to argue about character, I might even agree with you once I hear your testimony.
Actually, I think it was as low as 10% at one time. 15 was for better service.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI tip nobody, nowhere.
Why am I not surprised.
Quote: billryanIf you are playing $25 BJ 5 times a week, and sweating $250 a year in tips, I'm guessing your degenerate gambler persona is no longer an act.
Is that supposed to be funny? I have a playing partner and we have an agreement to meet for a bankroll to close and get paid out. When I have to force myself to play because I cannot stand the Casino parasitic enviornment and people who make comments like you, you bet it's an act of cheerful excitement 20% of the time and negativity the rest of the time in order to stiff those purveyors of misery. You would have to pay me to be in your presence. You need to re-read the OP. Your statement contradicts the OP which covers off your lewd comment. I know it takes time for you to figure it out.
I always tip my change in addition to $1-$5 on a commission game like PGP just because I don't want to carry the coins around.
I'll also tip the room maid a few bucks a night and usually throw in my spare pocket change too.
Some people have told me this is rude, while others say it's fine.
Quote: WinoIs that supposed to be funny? I have a playing partner and we have an agreement to meet for a bankroll to close and get paid out. When I have to force myself to play because I cannot stand the Casino parasitic enviornment and people who make comments like you, you bet it's an act of cheerful excitement 20% of the time and negativity the rest of the time in order to stiff those purveyors of misery. You would have to pay me to be in your presence. You need to re-read the OP. Your statement contradicts the OP which covers off your lewd comment. I know it takes time for you to figure it out.
Clean my windshield and I'll most likely pay you. Otherwise, I doubt I'll even notice you.
Quote: rxwineActually, my biggest issue with tipping is "tip creep". ...
Actually, I think it was as low as 10% at one time. 15 was for better service.
My father claimed 10% was standard for most of his life - easy to believe since I can vouch for the phenomenon of tip creep going from 15% to 20% during my life - I fight for the former and my wife thinks 20% is the minimum. The thought of 30% makes me nuts.
I was really happy* to hear the IRS was clamping down on companies that automatically add a tip to your bill. It really gets to me when that is 20%, since there is the impulse to even add to that in response to good service [an impulse that gets my wife every time]. Yet even though the Feds came out with that, I still know places that do it.
*not to worry, to be happy with the IRS is quite rare for me
Quote: gamerfreakLet's just pay everyone a living wage and do away with tipping all together. How bout that?
We've always been more of a pro business and anti labor country. At this point, the political class are completely owned and there is downward pressure on wages from unlimited immigration, off shoring, robots, etc.
So I don't think we're see wages increase any time soon. But tip creeping will increase.
One thing people forgot about is that many creative types now live off tips. There are podcasters who make six figures from patreon, for example.
It all seems good to me. I want people to make a decent living. If that's the path to it happening, great.
Quote: RigondeauxWe've always been more of a pro business and anti labor country. At this point, the political class are completely owned and there is downward pressure on wages from unlimited immigration, off shoring, robots, etc.
So I don't think we're see wages increase any time soon. But tip creeping will increase.
One thing people forgot about is that many creative types now live off tips. There are podcasters who make six figures from patreon, for example.
It all seems good to me. I want people to make a decent living. If that's the path to it happening, great.
I see crowdfunding with things like podcasting/streaming as a little different. The customer isn't paying for the product to begin with, and the content producer usually isn't an employee of a larger entity.
Why can every other industry beyond the service industry survive without tipping? I realize part of it is so the employee hopefully works a little harder for a tip, but if I hired someone to build a deck, I don't expect whether or not the thing falls apart to be based on an unspecified amount of money I pay the worker.
I always try to tip decently, I just don't like the concept.
Quote: gamerfreakI realize part of it is so the employee hopefully works a little harder for a tip, but if I hired someone to build a deck, I don't expect whether or not the thing falls apart to be based on an unspecified amount of money I pay the worker.
I think that's called a bribe in union work.
Quote: billryanClean my windshield and I'll most likely pay you. Otherwise, I doubt I'll even notice you.
😋. Words without meaning. Idle chatter. The mark of a wise entity.
Quote: gamerfreakI see crowdfunding with things like podcasting/streaming as a little different. The customer isn't paying for the product to begin with, and the content producer usually isn't an employee of a larger entity.
Why can every other industry beyond the service industry survive without tipping? I realize part of it is so the employee hopefully works a little harder for a tip, but if I hired someone to build a deck, I don't expect whether or not the thing falls apart to be based on an unspecified amount of money I pay the worker.
I always try to tip decently, I just don't like the concept.
There are other aspects to it too. A tipped waiter and his boss both want you to get desert. So it's win/win for them.
But mainly, as I've said, tiping circumvents market pressures.
If you look at memu prices you'll always gravitate to cheaper options and, without tips waiters would be paid from the price of food. As menu prices got pushed down so would wages.
When you tip, you know you are paying an individual person and you have dealt with them directly so at that point most people want to pay them a comfortable wage. So workers who work for tips tend to do pretty well.
Back to the employer. Now, he has a wel paid, professional staff who want to keep their jobs long term. AND they want to upsell.
Seems to work out pretty well.
Quote: RigondeauxAND they want to upsell.
Seems to work out pretty well.
I wonder how many customers like upselling. You like people trying to sell you higher priced items or adding on amenities. I hate it.
Reminds me of the process of buying a car or other things.
Quote: rxwineThe other type of creep is percentage creep. I was once taught 15%, now it's acceptable at 30%. I only wish real wages would rise by percentages. There's no particular reason why today's tip receiver deserves on average higher percentage is there?. Are they really working harder than service people of old?
Actually, I think it was as low as 10% at one time. 15 was for better service.
I was taught years ago back in the 80's that a good rule of thumb for tipping was 10% for breakfast, 15% for lunch, and 20% for dinner. That's how I did it for most of my life. I casually mentioned that to some younger people and they just about lost their minds, like I was the cheapest skinflint in the world and responsible for the downfall of the middle class. They were like, "NO! 20% at an absolute MINIMUM at all times, preferably more like 25% at least, no matter what, no matter how shitty the service is!"
I'll tip more than 10% nowadays, but I'm still within the 15-20% range most of the time. If the service is absolutely exceptional I'll go a little higher.
Oh, one more thing to add to the "creep" factor... you're only supposed to tip on the BEFORE tax total (again, that's what I was taught years ago as proper etiquette), but I've noticed on receipts nowadays they have tip recommendations based on the AFTER tax total.
If the biggest downside of a system that generates millions of middle class jobs is that I occasionally say "no thanks" to the tripple chocolate brownie bomb, then I will heroically carry that burdin.
Quote: gamerfreakI see crowdfunding with things like podcasting/streaming as a little different. The customer isn't paying for the product to begin with, and the content producer usually isn't an employee of a larger entity.
Why can every other industry beyond the service industry survive without tipping? I realize part of it is so the employee hopefully works a little harder for a tip, but if I hired someone to build a deck, I don't expect whether or not the thing falls apart to be based on an unspecified amount of money I pay the worker.
I always try to tip decently, I just don't like the concept.
Because every other industry, off the top of my head, is done by professionals. You don't need to go to college and graduate with a degree to work at a grocery store, deal cards, wait tables, etc.
Quote: RSYou don't need to go to college and graduate with a degree to work at a grocery store, deal cards, wait tables, etc.
No, but those jobs are usually way more demanding than jobs that DO require an education.
Six and half years of college is totally worth sitting in a cushy B.S. office job not having to deal with people. Pay kind of sucks, though.
You may think that's absurd. Just like I think it's absurd tipping 15% to 20% on higher end meals(I do it begrudgingly). I think 15% to 20% is fine at normal day to day restaurants but I think there should be a cap.
Overtipping can lead to 'employee theft' in a roundabout way. Go start overtipping tipping a bartender and see how full your glass gets, You will get at least 3 fingers worth(Ya, I know, that's the size of Trump's entire hand).
Add free food on top of that.
I won't even get into what overtipping casino employees might get you( But, the sandwich trick IS a waste of money most of the time)
Who pays for all that in the end?
From now on i think im going to never tip anyone again. Until it becomes a law on the books, why should i have to pay anyone more than what the product costs? If im in a restaurant, the product im paying for is the food which is already marked up higher for the restaurant to make a profit and im already helping the restaurant grow its business. Why should i also have to pay their workers? Its not like were getting a great deal on the food at these restaurants to compensate for tipping the waitress/waiter. If they want us to tip the waitress or waiter i want a 30 - 50% reduction in food prices to make up for the markup. Restaurants cant have the cake and eat it too. They are already have a nice profit margin on their food. Not paying their workers is just greed amd trying to milk the system
I think that's what pisses some people off about tipping. My sister is a terrible tipper, it even made me cringe. I asked her why she was such a stiff. She wonders why she should tip so much when she had to go and pay for college, she had to pay for special licensing(and renew it) and buy her own supplies(not just a uniform and pens). Yet, some waiters and waitresses were making more than she was. She noted that waitresses tipped her the least out of all her clients at about 5%.Quote: RSBecause every other industry, off the top of my head, is done by professionals. You don't need to go to college and graduate with a degree to work at a grocery store, deal cards, wait tables, etc.
Quote: ZenKinG...It should not be the customer's responsibility to pay the worker...
It's worse than that. By tipping, you're paying that person TWICE.
General principle: no matter what you do, if people are free to ruin it, they will.
1. At first people pay for service as required.
2. Then some people want an advantage and pay extra. e.g. tips
3. Then other people come along and pay even more. Now they are raising expectations.
4. Step 4 is when the payee no longer sees the extra money as something freely given, but EXPECTED as if it had always been this way.
Step 5 RUINED.
--->See general principle.
Why do you even patronize places where tipping is expected?
What I mean is, if I didn't want to ever tip waitstaff, I would just avoid the situation altogether and not go out to eat. The second I leave my house to go somewhere, I know I the tip is part of the built in cost. If I ever felt I was paying too much money, I just wouldn't eat out. At the very least I would restrict my dining to fast food places and buffets or something.
Quote: TigerWuQuestion for people who hate tipping/never tip:
Why do you even patronize places where tipping is expected?
Rarely.
Quote: TigerWuQuestion for people who hate tipping/never tip:
Why do you even patronize places where tipping is expected?
What I mean is, if I didn't want to ever tip waitstaff, I would just avoid the situation altogether and not go out to eat. The second I leave my house to go somewhere, I know I the tip is part of the built in cost. If I ever felt I was paying too much money, I just wouldn't eat out. At the very least I would restrict my dining to fast food places and buffets or something.
You missed the point. Its a matter of principal
Quote: TigerWuAt the very least I would restrict my dining to fast food places and buffets or something.
Btw, isn't a buffet a terrible dilemma for an AP? You have the opportunity to maximize your return by all you eat.
Weigh too tempting. (pun word intended --( unless you enjoy 40lbs of plain salad and cucumber)
Or do some of you walk in thin, but wear a special shirt and walk out 9 months pregnant?
Got home Friday night for a Saturday wedding and found my pants had somehow shrunk. Needed some cord and the cummerbund to make them look okay.
Lesson learned. I still eat too much, but buffets are once every two months or so.
Quote: elvisThe dealers want tips, as you know. The floor supervisor wants tips for the dealers, so that the dealers have more interest and probably make less mistakes when dealing as a result of that interest.
Woah hang on, I thought mistakes are extremely lucrative for the AP and AP loves dealer mistakes?
I mean a good AP certainly does. A good AP will always be able to catch dealer mistakes in the casino's favor and let the dealer mistakes in the player's favor slide.
As you know, dealer mistakes are very profitable.
Bad argument there unfortunately
Quote: TigerWuI've never been an AP so a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense to me... but from a complete layman's point of view, if tipping someone a few dollars every hour or so completely blows your profit margin, or at least a large chunk of it, then that doesn't sound like a very profitable venture to begin with. If I was ever going to become a card counter, I would build in tips on my expected return from day one, otherwise what's the point in even playing?
RS explained this very well in the first page. It's not that you can't tip a few dollars every hour, it's that you end up pissing off the dealer even more if you do.
AP's make a certain dollar amount per hour.
But due to the nature of blackjack AP they are unfairly expected to tip SIGNIFICANTLY more sine their bet size is large.
So if you tip at that amount, you make the dealer happy but you eat away your edge. If you tip less than that, you piss off the dealer.
When i get bad service at a restaurant I tip 0% instead of like 5%, it's the same logic
Quote: Confessor
AP's make a certain dollar amount per hour.
But due to the nature of blackjack AP they are unfairly expected to tip SIGNIFICANTLY more sine their bet size is large.
So if you tip at that amount, you make the dealer happy but you eat away your edge. If you tip less than that, you piss off the dealer.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks.
Quote: ZenKingGYou missed the point. Its a matter of principal
Okay, but why even put yourself in that situation in the first place?? If I think tipping is a stupid idea in principal, I'm not going to patronize places that expect it, because why would I waste my money somewhere that institutes a policy I disagree with?
