elvis
elvis
Joined: Jun 27, 2014
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LuckyPhowRomesbeachbumbabs
July 5th, 2017 at 7:30:23 AM permalink
Listen, I have worked for a casino for 8 years as a floor supervisor. I frequently supervise blackjack. I know a couple of things about tipping. The dealers want tips, as you know. The floor supervisor wants tips for the dealers, so that the dealers have more interest and probably make less mistakes when dealing as a result of that interest. In other words, tipping keeps the dealer interested in doing a good job for the players and the table the dealer is at. It can keep the dealer interested in providing a good and properly delivered game. Overall, the atmosphere is better when there is tipping. As a floor supervisor watching usually four blackjack tables, I see the tips that take place. When a player is tipping, I usually think he is a regular citizen and not an advantage player. I think he is a square player. I really hate when a player holds the tip in his fingers and waits to give it to the dealer after a round or at color-up. It makes it look like he is advertising the tip. Now, if its an unusually high amount, then I can appreciate the showmanship. So, I think an advantage player should not advertise the tips. It looks either suspicious or stupid. If you are mimicking a losing player or ploppy, then it is okay if you are actually making stupid plays, which you should not be doing. So then, the suspicion can creep into the situation, from my point of view. I know that the percentage for a counter is small in the long run. Everyone knows that who is aware of AP play. There comes the dilemma. And I see your point of view. However, it is not your point of view that counts in this situation. I ask the dealers, if I am suspecting a moving around of money during a round, if the player was varying their bets a lot. Usually, the dealers are so uninformed that they ask me to repeat that request. If the player was tipping, and the dealer actually understood English, I would think he would say that the player was not moving around the money, he was just playing hunches. Why f!#/ up a good tipping situation, especially when the player in question probably can surmise the conversation taking place, especially if he is an aware AP and if it is taking place at the table even with whispers. You see the dealer might be on for and hour or an hour and twenty minutes. I cannot wait till he gets off the table to ask him any questions. I will continue to reply with insight, later. However, the attitude of ALL OUT WAR is really good. However, it must be a clever war and it seems that the tipping conversation makes it less than an agreeable interaction between you and the dealer or house. I will explain techniques that could help you win and keep you in the game, with the tipping angle emphasized. I shall relate tipping scenarios that were good and made me think and those that were not so good. Later!
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Jul 5, 2017
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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July 5th, 2017 at 7:55:23 AM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

It's simple.

If someone wotks for tips and they perform adequate work for you, you are on your honor to tip them. That's how it works. If you don't like it don't accept their labor.



Well, maybe yes, and maybe no. As it applies to dealers, drink servers, and restaurant servers, I agree.

But, what about tipping hotel staff who clean your room? This tipping never existed (to my knowledge) in the 1960s when I began my professional career. But, it now seems "expected" if you are a hotel guest.

Here you have a situation where you never supervise (much less observe) the services performed on your behalf. AFIK, the cleaner will not (and IMHO should not) clean the room with the occupant present. Plus, leaving a tip today for a great job cleaning after the mess friends and I made watching the game in my room last night may or may not go to the cleaner who did all the work. The cleaner who did a great job yesterday may have the day off today, and today's cleaner may do a poor job, while pocketing the tip you intended for someone else. Furthermore, you have no say concerning the quality of service you expect, because the hotel -- and the hotel alone -- monitors whether or not the room was appropriately cleaned to its (the hotel's) standards, as verified by some clipboard-carrying supervisor.

I know someone who tends not to tip hotel cleaning staff for all of the above reasons, reasons which I cannot dispute. However, if she stays several nights in a hotel, she makes the bed so it looks like was never used. She does other things that make the cleaner's job easier, like emptying and cleaning the coffee maker, washing any glassware she used, etc. Basically, she makes it so the cleaner can empty the trash, replace dirty towels, and check the room off the cleaner's list, allowing the cleaner to quickly move to another room (perhaps where beds will have to get new sheets because the occupant checked out that morning). She told me one hotel she frequents sends a text to her hotel phone: "Occupied clean. Thank you." When the hotel has a LOT of check-outs, where many rooms require time-consuming fresh sheets (etc.), cleaners are often hard-pressed to turn rooms around before the hotel starts allowing check-in (3pm or 4pm). Seems hotels notice -- and apparently appreciate -- what she does.

Hmmm... I can't find fault with her practice as an alternative to tipping (although others' MMV). I certainly agree with her distinctions between (indirect) service I get from hotel cleaners and the (direct) service I get from dealers and food servers. Those who provide her "direct" service probably call her a "George" (good tipper).
TigerWu
TigerWu
Joined: May 23, 2016
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July 5th, 2017 at 8:02:25 AM permalink
I've never been an AP so a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense to me... but from a complete layman's point of view, if tipping someone a few dollars every hour or so completely blows your profit margin, or at least a large chunk of it, then that doesn't sound like a very profitable venture to begin with. If I was ever going to become a card counter, I would build in tips on my expected return from day one, otherwise what's the point in even playing?
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux 
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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July 5th, 2017 at 9:35:25 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Well, then, if I over tip someone they should speak up and say sir, you overpaid? Right. That's the honest thing to do.



See, this is what I'm talking about.

Not only is this nonsense, I'm sure that you know that it is. That's what they call sophisty.

People are well paid in many situations. Being well tipped is just one of them. There are many reasons you might to pay a tipped employee well and they are free to accept, just like a salaried employee getting a bonus or raise.

The fact that some get bonuses would hardly justify writing others bad pay checks.

If a server believes they have been overpaid in error then of course they should say something.
DogHand
DogHand
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
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tringlomane
July 5th, 2017 at 10:00:31 AM permalink
Here's all you need to know about AP tipping:

Go to this link:

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?30714-Tipping-Psychology-vs-EV

and page down to find "Dog Hand's Tipping Guidelines to Ensure Longevity"

Dog Hand
Last edited by: DogHand on Jul 5, 2017
Rigondeaux
Rigondeaux 
Joined: Aug 18, 2014
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SOOPOO
July 5th, 2017 at 10:58:18 AM permalink
Link no work. However, Stiffing because you are an ap is like stiffing a waiter because your on a business lunch.
billryan
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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July 5th, 2017 at 11:44:33 AM permalink
Making your bed at the end of a stay accomplishes nothing. No decent hotel will allow a new client to sleep on a bed that doesn't have fresh linen.
The simple solution to your dilemma about tipping the wrong person is to tip every day. I get abuse because I tip by leaving all my spare change in a cup marked for housekeeping. Usually the people telling me I'm creating extra work are the same people who don't tip at all.
If your business plan to succeed as a gambler can't spare a buck or two in tips long the way, it's your plan that is the failure, not the system.
It's what you do and not what you say If you're not part of the future then get out of the way
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
Joined: May 19, 2016
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July 5th, 2017 at 12:37:07 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Making your bed at the end of a stay accomplishes nothing.



Sorry I was not clear. My bad.

She leaves the bed unmade on the day she checks out, but makes it each morning on days she continues her stay at the property. Of course, when she checks out the hotel will have to make the room fresh for the next guest. But, most folks expect the cleaning staff to make the bed and do the dishes on days they continue their stay in the hotel.
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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July 5th, 2017 at 12:45:56 PM permalink
Quote: Rigondeaux

See, this is what I'm talking about.

Not only is this nonsense, I'm sure that you know that it is. That's what they call sophisty.

People are well paid in many situations. Being well tipped is just one of them. There are many reasons you might to pay a tipped employee well and they are free to accept, just like a salaried employee getting a bonus or raise.

The fact that some get bonuses would hardly justify writing others bad pay checks.

If a server believes they have been overpaid in error then of course they should say something.



No, it's not sophistry to point out that people who take tips will often have no problem taking money for which even they know they did little to deserve in some cases. Do they sweat the ethics of that? Not so much.

You're actually operating with same ethics mentality as the casino, which is throw money at us if you want but don't think about undercutting us.

Except you have no case.

Because a casino expects a casino employee to work all week and do the job, tips or not. That's the job. Nothing in the job description says customers will pay their salary. If I'm wrong, show me.

Only through the great charity of your customers does one receive more.

Now until they put "tipping is mandatory" and enforce it no one should pretend otherwise.
prisoner of gravity
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
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July 5th, 2017 at 12:54:54 PM permalink
I can actually see both sides... When I was more of a low roller only making $20/hour every single dollar counted. If I tipped 1 dollar every 3 shoes (roughly 1 hour) then I was giving up 1/20th of my EV! I still always tipped when I won though, unless the dealer was a real jerk or something but that wasn't too often. My goal of AP'ing has ALWAYS been to be liked at the table and to be thought of in a positive light.

Now move on to higher advantage plays (machines, HC, etc, etc). I tip a ton. Anyone getting a 10% edge or more in a game should be tipping a bunch as well. First, you want to keep the dealer happy. Next you want to keep the floor happy that you're keeping his dealers happy (as mentioned above). Lastly, let's say you're just HC blackjack (never mind the 30%, 70% or 100% plays)... let's say you have a 10% edge and get 80 hands per hour with an average bet of $300.

EV(per hour) = (80*300)*(.10) = $2400. You're printing $2400 per hour and you're going to worry about tipping? You could tip $1 per hand and still have an EV of $2340/hour... Being a smart AP, who wouldn't be tipping a ton?

I'm rather confident I've had dealers make the game on more than one occasion, but they didn't care and kept doing their sloppy procedure MORE than likely because of our tipping, and maybe a tiny bit because of my jokes =) (at least that's what I tell myself). How much value is there in tipping at that point?
Playing it correctly means you've already won.

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