Did the lightbulb just go off about tipping$ ?

BJ card counting being the bread and butter to my overall AP activities and the edge in straight counting being razor thin, I started developing a Degenerate Gambler persona who is pretty much always unhappy 80% of the time and who can never be satisfied by the commonly found poor service and lack of people-skills exhibited by the Casino Industry staff. Only tipping $1 when specific Pit are watching and no matter how big a win I acquire I experimented with just walking away still angry and negative despite the few thousand dollar win and it seems believable. From a math standpoint, if I play 5 sessions a week and tip $1 per session x 52 weeks that = $260 a year and when I factor in dealer mis-pays that $260 amount should be reduced significantly as my min bet is $25 usually. I don't see why I shouldn't tip the same amounts in Hole-card play either as that's what I have already been doing.
How much do you APs WASTE in tipping dealers per year? I would like any suggestions on how to tip EVEN LESS just like LVBEAR -one of my AP idols. This thread is obviously directed to the AP community and so dealers who chime in and say that I have a social responsibility to supplement the Casino's non-living wage pay to employees despite their exorbitant profits can save it. In life, I'm a complete gentleman. In the Casino, it is ALL OUT WAR! ,

Been several years since a tipping thread has started here, so lets get it on. What would SoxFan say? Cashews and Guinness? Hey, hey!

If you are playing $25 BJ 5 times a week, and sweating $250 a year in tips, I'm guessing your degenerate gambler persona is no longer an act.

I've never understood how or why (well, I guess I understand why to an extent) people sweat tipping and want to tip as little as possible. I'm not saying you should tip away all your EV or do anything stupid. Although, counting cards, or any game where the player has a small advantage, tipping can add up quickly if you aren't smart about it.

But in other games, particularly those where you have a nice edge, there's no reason to sweat the tipping. Let's say you have a decent play, $1 9/6 JOB where you can do 1000 HPH (for simplicity), and you get 4.46% cash-back, for an overall positive 4% win. At $5k in action per hour, that's $200/hour. The only hand you'll be tipping on is a RF which pays $4k and is worth 2% of your overall return. Some people tip like 0.5% of a jackpot which would be $20 in this case. Sure, that might be a fair amount to tip (who knows what's a fair amount?), but that $20 loss over a 40 hour span is essentially nothing, as your EV would have been $8k. Hell, if you wanted to, you could tip 50% of your jackpot payouts to the slot attendant and still do very well, making $150/hour instead of $200/hour. (I'm not saying you should tip that much, but it goes to show how little of an impact tipping has if you're playing a decent or strong play.)


It's much more difficult in blackjack card counting. You have a small edge, you're making big bets compared to your hourly win-rate, and thus tipping what a dealer would consider fair is much different than what you can actually afford. If your max bet is $500 and your hourly EV is $100, you're not going to be able to find a tip amount that satisfies the dealer. Dealer bases it off of your $500 bet, and/or how much you win or bought in for, you base it off of your $100/hour in EV....and there's not really a "fair" middle ground. But then again, you're playing a pretty bad game to begin with.


But if you're not going to tip, don't be an a**hole about it (unless the dealer deserves it). Just color up or do whatever you do, grab your money, and go.

It's simple.

If someone wotks for tips and they perform adequate work for you, you are on your honor to tip them. That's how it works. If you don't like it don't accept their labor.

If you stiff, your doing something roughly as immoral as stealing.

Invent any story you want to cover it up. You think workers should be paid more and instead of tips the service shoud cost more, or whatever bs you want to spin. You know you're full of crap.

Quote: Rigondeaux

If you don't like it don't accept their labor.

If you stiff, your doing something roughly as immoral as stealing.

I dislike when people never tip or leave really crappy tips. What I dislike even more is when people tell others how much and when they should tip.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Invent any story you want to cover it up. You think workers should be paid more and instead of tips the service shoud cost more, or whatever bs you want to spin. You know you're full of crap.

I don't see how the casino is off the hook.

The casino says - if the customer doesn't make up your wage difference for any reason, not our problem.
The customer says - if the casino doesn't make up your wage difference for any reason, not my problem.

Quote: AxelWolf

I dislike when people never tip or leave really crappy tips. What I dislike even more is when people tell others how much and when they should tip.

"I already tipped the cocktail waitress for you, why'd you give her a dollar? Are you insane, a $2 tip for a drink is ridiculous, period! Go find her and get your dollar back."

That quote kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

Quote: rxwine

I don't see how the casino is off the hook.

The casino says - if the customer doesn't make up your wage difference for any reason, not our problem.
The customer says - if the casino doesn't make up your wage difference for any reason, not my problem.

There is no hook. Workers need to live.

One system is that the boss charges the customer more and then uses that money to pay workers.

The other is that the boss charges the customer less and customers pay workers directly on the honor System.

The latter usual works out best for workers because most people prefer to pay them well. They derive a utility from tipping that they would not get from higher prices. Plus, they know where it is going.

But if you have some subjective reaction that makes you dislike it you can choose not to participate. Expecting people to work for free because of some nonsense rattling around inside your head is extremely arrogant and not far removed from stealing.

They work for tips. Knowing this, you accepted their work. So tip, or you have taken something without paying for it.

Not only that, as with shoplifters, honest customers now must pay more to make up for the deficit you created.

Quote: Rigondeaux

But if you have some subjective reaction that makes you dislike it you can choose not to participate. Expecting people to work for free because of some nonsense rattling around inside your head is extremely arrogant and not far removed from stealing.
.
They work for tips. Knowing this, you accepted their work. So tip, or you have taken something without paying for it.

Well, then, if I over tip someone they should speak up and say sir, you overpaid? Right. That's the honest thing to do.

Listen, I have worked for a casino for 8 years as a floor supervisor. I frequently supervise blackjack. I know a couple of things about tipping. The dealers want tips, as you know. The floor supervisor wants tips for the dealers, so that the dealers have more interest and probably make less mistakes when dealing as a result of that interest. In other words, tipping keeps the dealer interested in doing a good job for the players and the table the dealer is at. It can keep the dealer interested in providing a good and properly delivered game. Overall, the atmosphere is better when there is tipping. As a floor supervisor watching usually four blackjack tables, I see the tips that take place. When a player is tipping, I usually think he is a regular citizen and not an advantage player. I think he is a square player. I really hate when a player holds the tip in his fingers and waits to give it to the dealer after a round or at color-up. It makes it look like he is advertising the tip. Now, if its an unusually high amount, then I can appreciate the showmanship. So, I think an advantage player should not advertise the tips. It looks either suspicious or stupid. If you are mimicking a losing player or ploppy, then it is okay if you are actually making stupid plays, which you should not be doing. So then, the suspicion can creep into the situation, from my point of view. I know that the percentage for a counter is small in the long run. Everyone knows that who is aware of AP play. There comes the dilemma. And I see your point of view. However, it is not your point of view that counts in this situation. I ask the dealers, if I am suspecting a moving around of money during a round, if the player was varying their bets a lot. Usually, the dealers are so uninformed that they ask me to repeat that request. If the player was tipping, and the dealer actually understood English, I would think he would say that the player was not moving around the money, he was just playing hunches. Why f!#/ up a good tipping situation, especially when the player in question probably can surmise the conversation taking place, especially if he is an aware AP and if it is taking place at the table even with whispers. You see the dealer might be on for and hour or an hour and twenty minutes. I cannot wait till he gets off the table to ask him any questions. I will continue to reply with insight, later. However, the attitude of ALL OUT WAR is really good. However, it must be a clever war and it seems that the tipping conversation makes it less than an agreeable interaction between you and the dealer or house. I will explain techniques that could help you win and keep you in the game, with the tipping angle emphasized. I shall relate tipping scenarios that were good and made me think and those that were not so good. Later!

Quote: Rigondeaux

It's simple.

If someone wotks for tips and they perform adequate work for you, you are on your honor to tip them. That's how it works. If you don't like it don't accept their labor.

Well, maybe yes, and maybe no. As it applies to dealers, drink servers, and restaurant servers, I agree.

But, what about tipping hotel staff who clean your room? This tipping never existed (to my knowledge) in the 1960s when I began my professional career. But, it now seems "expected" if you are a hotel guest.

Here you have a situation where you never supervise (much less observe) the services performed on your behalf. AFIK, the cleaner will not (and IMHO should not) clean the room with the occupant present. Plus, leaving a tip today for a great job cleaning after the mess friends and I made watching the game in my room last night may or may not go to the cleaner who did all the work. The cleaner who did a great job yesterday may have the day off today, and today's cleaner may do a poor job, while pocketing the tip you intended for someone else. Furthermore, you have no say concerning the quality of service you expect, because the hotel -- and the hotel alone -- monitors whether or not the room was appropriately cleaned to its (the hotel's) standards, as verified by some clipboard-carrying supervisor.

I know someone who tends not to tip hotel cleaning staff for all of the above reasons, reasons which I cannot dispute. However, if she stays several nights in a hotel, she makes the bed so it looks like was never used. She does other things that make the cleaner's job easier, like emptying and cleaning the coffee maker, washing any glassware she used, etc. Basically, she makes it so the cleaner can empty the trash, replace dirty towels, and check the room off the cleaner's list, allowing the cleaner to quickly move to another room (perhaps where beds will have to get new sheets because the occupant checked out that morning). She told me one hotel she frequents sends a text to her hotel phone: "Occupied clean. Thank you." When the hotel has a LOT of check-outs, where many rooms require time-consuming fresh sheets (etc.), cleaners are often hard-pressed to turn rooms around before the hotel starts allowing check-in (3pm or 4pm). Seems hotels notice -- and apparently appreciate -- what she does.

Hmmm... I can't find fault with her practice as an alternative to tipping (although others' MMV). I certainly agree with her distinctions between (indirect) service I get from hotel cleaners and the (direct) service I get from dealers and food servers. Those who provide her "direct" service probably call her a "George" (good tipper).

I've never been an AP so a lot of this stuff doesn't make sense to me... but from a complete layman's point of view, if tipping someone a few dollars every hour or so completely blows your profit margin, or at least a large chunk of it, then that doesn't sound like a very profitable venture to begin with. If I was ever going to become a card counter, I would build in tips on my expected return from day one, otherwise what's the point in even playing?

Quote: rxwine

Well, then, if I over tip someone they should speak up and say sir, you overpaid? Right. That's the honest thing to do.

See, this is what I'm talking about.

Not only is this nonsense, I'm sure that you know that it is. That's what they call sophisty.

People are well paid in many situations. Being well tipped is just one of them. There are many reasons you might to pay a tipped employee well and they are free to accept, just like a salaried employee getting a bonus or raise.

The fact that some get bonuses would hardly justify writing others bad pay checks.

If a server believes they have been overpaid in error then of course they should say something.

Here's all you need to know about AP tipping:

Go to this link:

https://www.blackjacktheforum.com/showthread.php?30714-Tipping-Psychology-vs-EV

and page down to find "Dog Hand's Tipping Guidelines to Ensure Longevity"

Dog Hand

Link no work. However, Stiffing because you are an ap is like stiffing a waiter because your on a business lunch.

Making your bed at the end of a stay accomplishes nothing. No decent hotel will allow a new client to sleep on a bed that doesn't have fresh linen.
The simple solution to your dilemma about tipping the wrong person is to tip every day. I get abuse because I tip by leaving all my spare change in a cup marked for housekeeping. Usually the people telling me I'm creating extra work are the same people who don't tip at all.
If your business plan to succeed as a gambler can't spare a buck or two in tips long the way, it's your plan that is the failure, not the system.

Quote: billryan

Making your bed at the end of a stay accomplishes nothing.

Sorry I was not clear. My bad.

She leaves the bed unmade on the day she checks out, but makes it each morning on days she continues her stay at the property. Of course, when she checks out the hotel will have to make the room fresh for the next guest. But, most folks expect the cleaning staff to make the bed and do the dishes on days they continue their stay in the hotel.

Quote: Rigondeaux

See, this is what I'm talking about.

Not only is this nonsense, I'm sure that you know that it is. That's what they call sophisty.

People are well paid in many situations. Being well tipped is just one of them. There are many reasons you might to pay a tipped employee well and they are free to accept, just like a salaried employee getting a bonus or raise.

The fact that some get bonuses would hardly justify writing others bad pay checks.

If a server believes they have been overpaid in error then of course they should say something.

No, it's not sophistry to point out that people who take tips will often have no problem taking money for which even they know they did little to deserve in some cases. Do they sweat the ethics of that? Not so much.

You're actually operating with same ethics mentality as the casino, which is throw money at us if you want but don't think about undercutting us.

Except you have no case.

Because a casino expects a casino employee to work all week and do the job, tips or not. That's the job. Nothing in the job description says customers will pay their salary. If I'm wrong, show me.

Only through the great charity of your customers does one receive more.

Now until they put "tipping is mandatory" and enforce it no one should pretend otherwise.

I can actually see both sides... When I was more of a low roller only making $20/hour every single dollar counted. If I tipped 1 dollar every 3 shoes (roughly 1 hour) then I was giving up 1/20th of my EV! I still always tipped when I won though, unless the dealer was a real jerk or something but that wasn't too often. My goal of AP'ing has ALWAYS been to be liked at the table and to be thought of in a positive light.

Now move on to higher advantage plays (machines, HC, etc, etc). I tip a ton. Anyone getting a 10% edge or more in a game should be tipping a bunch as well. First, you want to keep the dealer happy. Next you want to keep the floor happy that you're keeping his dealers happy (as mentioned above). Lastly, let's say you're just HC blackjack (never mind the 30%, 70% or 100% plays)... let's say you have a 10% edge and get 80 hands per hour with an average bet of $300.

EV(per hour) = (80*300)*(.10) = $2400. You're printing $2400 per hour and you're going to worry about tipping? You could tip $1 per hand and still have an EV of $2340/hour... Being a smart AP, who wouldn't be tipping a ton?

I'm rather confident I've had dealers make the game on more than one occasion, but they didn't care and kept doing their sloppy procedure MORE than likely because of our tipping, and maybe a tiny bit because of my jokes =) (at least that's what I tell myself). How much value is there in tipping at that point?

Quote: rxwine

Well, then, if I over tip someone they should speak up and say sir, you overpaid? Right. That's the honest thing to do.

If I'm not mistaken, this actually did happen to Rigondeaux when he tried tipping with a $100 bill.

I tip $7K-8K/year (gambling, hotels, food). It's my largest regular annual expense (barring car accident, medical emergency, expensive vacation).
I don't try to maximize EV anymore. Enjoying my time (while making some profit) are more important.
Since I don't play full-time, the easiest way for me to make a larger profit is to play more hours (rather than penny-pinch to raise EV).

At BJ, it's fun to tip $1-5 on everyone's hand...
or just play with things. It's fun to play like a crazy tourist.

Sometimes you find cooperative dealers, where EV is positive on tipping.

Quote: Romes

I'm rather confident I've had dealers make the game on more than one occasion, but they didn't care and kept doing their sloppy procedure MORE than likely because of our tipping, and maybe a tiny bit because of my jokes =) (at least that's what I tell myself). How much value is there in tipping at that point?

Yup. ...hint ...hint

I NEVER tip. I can count the number of times i tipped on one of my hands and the only reason i tipped was cause i had won a huge shoe and pit boss was staring me down badly. Even with that being said i only gave them a 2.50 chip and it made me cringe to even toss them that. The thought of losing EV no matter the amount eats at me. The only time i would ever consider tipping would be if it caused me to get better penetration and the dealer was understanding what i want, but i never tried to do that as most dealers are clueless.

I dont feel bad at all at never tipping. Its not my job to tip them. If the dealers get mad, go get mad at your employer for treating you like shit while they make billions. I usually like to say something along the lines of this when a dealer shows disgust at me for not tipping after a big win, "Why should i tip you when i win, are you going to tip me back when i lose? Exactly, go complain to your cheap boss ripping you off, not me."

No wonder you are being cheated so much. Forget the OSN, you've made the dealer shite list. Enjoy your seconds, you'll be seeing a lot of them.

Quote: RS

If I'm not mistaken, this actually did happen to Rigondeaux when he tried tipping with a $100 bill.

No doubt. I've seen valets getting cars get all the way to the parking garage without hearing tires squealing and other odd things.

Quote: Axelwolf

I dislike when people never tip or leave really crappy tips. What I dislike even more is when people tell others how much and when they should tip.

You're referring to minimalists. It is completely impossible to relax around them! Their pinched uptight constipated looking facial expressions and smug self fart sniffing attitude makes them among the most annoying people there are to be around, and they're a "real catch" for women on the dating scene. You can spot them a mile away!

Quote: Keyser

You're referring to minimalists. It is completely impossible to relax around them! Their pinched uptight constipated looking facial expressions and smug self fart sniffing attitude makes them among the most annoying people there are to be around, and they're a "real catch" for women on the dating scene. And you can spot them a mile away!

You're watching too much South Park.

Haha! YES!

Quote: ZenKinG

"Why should i tip you when i win, are you going to tip me back when i lose? Exactly, go complain to your cheap boss ripping you off, not me."

What service are you providing them where your actions would warrant a tip?

Quote: rxwine

No, it's not sophistry to point out that people who take tips will often have no problem taking money for which even they know they did little to deserve in some cases. Do they sweat the ethics of that? Not so much.

You're actually operating with same ethics mentality as the casino, which is throw money at us if you want but don't think about undercutting us.

Except you have no case.

Because a casino expects a casino employee to work all week and do the job, tips or not. That's the job. Nothing in the job description says customers will pay their salary. If I'm wrong, show me.

Only through the great charity of your customers does one receive more.

Now until they put "tipping is mandatory" and enforce it no one should pretend otherwise.

See , if you know what mandatory means, it's virtually impossible that you genuinely think this makes sense.

certainly you understand there is nothing unethical about accepting generous payment as long as it is intentional. Or else you are sitting on some previously unknown ethical insight, in which case you should enlighten us.

You must know paying someone for their work is not charity. Ie i think you know the definition of "charity" and have distorted it on purpose.

Especially since it has already been pointed out, certainly you comprehend the fact that the money used to pay employees always comes from customers. Where else? But you are ignoring this fact intentionally.

If you want to take something without paying for it, just admit that this is what you are doing. Rather than engaging in zenking-esque mental gymnastics.

Quote: Rigondeaux

See , if you know what mandatory means, it's virtually impossible that you genuinely think this makes sense.

It's that thing they do to the bill for groups at restaurants. A party of 8 or more has a tip added to their bill. That's what mandatory means.

Right. Tipping for a smaller group is more like obligatory.

So, i figure you also probably know what charity means but were distorting the meaning intentionally.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Right. Tipping for a smaller group is more like obligatory.

Pretty sure obligatory is In every sense mandatory. You might wrangle your way out of one group tip, but most likely they will call security on you if you do it again at the same place.

Quote:

So, i figure you also probably know what charity means but were distorting the meaning intentionally.

You described tipping as something the worker needs and I am under no obligation to give, so it's charity. Both are true here.

In fact, the only person obligated to make up what a worker doesn't make in tips is the employer who must supplement the worker's tips (up to minimum wage I believe) if the worker doesn't make enough in tips.

Also, the claim that the customer should go elsewhere is no more valid than the worker should find a new job if he doesn't like the setup.

If I had my druthers, I'd always rather have a choice. Do you want really good service or just basic and save your tip money. I'd take basic every time nearly. Except food servers. Anyone who can poison me probably should be tipped. That and maybe the maid cause I don't want them putting my toothbrush up their butt.

But that's just my preference.

Quote: rxwine

If I had my druthers, I'd always rather have a choice. Do you want really good service or just basic and save your tip money. I'd take basic every time nearly. Except food servers. Anyone who can poison me probably should be tipped. That and maybe the maid cause I don't want them putting my toothbrush up their butt.

But that's just my preference.

Ummm.

It's not often I can say this board changed my life, but today is one of those days. Not sure I will ever leave my toothbrush accessible again.

This is a thing? OMG. I'm completely repulsed.

As to tipping. I'm a demiGeorge.

However, I saw something done a while back at a table, and I would like to ask why I haven't seen more of it. First seen at a craps table (2 way place 6/8), then a bj table same chain but 1000 miles away.

Bet placed for dealers. Bet wins. Dealer takes win but leaves original chip working, just like player's bet.

Genius.

Tried it somewhere else when I felt like tip as you go was worth doing; was told house doesn't allow it.

Why is the default most places to take both chips, other than -ev game? Why would some houses allow it and not others? Is there an accepted way to ask for your played tips to be handled this way?

I would be placing bets for dealers much more often if they worked them, since I would get that much better value for my tip money. They would make more in the long run, because I would keep them in when the table's running good. And I'm not seeing a constant drain on my wins to nearly the same percentage (similar to the play - til you lose promo chip, instead of take the chip win or lose type.)

Quote: LuckyPhow

Well, maybe yes, and maybe no. As it applies to dealers, drink servers, and restaurant servers, I agree.

But, what about tipping hotel staff who clean your room? This tipping never existed (to my knowledge) in the 1960s when I began my professional career. But, it now seems "expected" if you are a hotel guest.

Here you have a situation where you never supervise (much less observe) the services performed on your behalf. AFIK, the cleaner will not (and IMHO should not) clean the room with the occupant present. Plus, leaving a tip today for a great job cleaning after the mess friends and I made watching the game in my room last night may or may not go to the cleaner who did all the work. The cleaner who did a great job yesterday may have the day off today, and today's cleaner may do a poor job, while pocketing the tip you intended for someone else. Furthermore, you have no say concerning the quality of service you expect, because the hotel -- and the hotel alone -- monitors whether or not the room was appropriately cleaned to its (the hotel's) standards, as verified by some clipboard-carrying supervisor.

Our corporate expense policy changed a couple of years ago where we couldn't expense tips for hotel housekeeping. Marriott (one of our major hotel groups) decided to play along and give its patrons points (500 points, about a $5 value) for each night they elect not to do housekeeping. So, that solves two problems. You can cheap it, earn some extra points, and avoid tipping.

For me, I choose to tip anyway because I would rather that the housekeeper be employed and have a living. Just because my company decides to be cheap doesn't mean I have to be.

Quote: rxwine

Pretty sure obligatory is In every sense mandatory. You might wrangle your way out of one group tip, but most likely they will call security on you if you do it again at the same place.




You described tipping as something the worker needs and I am under no obligation to give, so it's charity. Both are true here.

In fact, the only person obligated to make up what a worker doesn't make in tips is the employer who must supplement the worker's tips (up to minimum wage I believe) if the worker doesn't make enough in tips.

Also, the claim that the customer should go elsewhere is no more valid than the worker should find a new job if he doesn't like the setup.

Obligatory means you have an obligation, which might be merely moral. Mandatory means you have no choice, or at least that negative consequences will be imposed if you don't do the mandatory thing If your country is invaded, you might be obligated to aid in its defense. But this is only mandatory if there is a draft. You might have an obligation to take care of your aged parents, but it is not mandatory. etc.

I believe you didn't get that distinction.

I find it hard to believe that you do not realize, on some level, that you are just making up an alternative definition of charity that does not correspond to the definition used by everybody outside of your head.

Honoring a financial obligation without compulsion is not charity. Paying an informal debt, or honoring a bet, for example, are not charity. Nor is giving someone money in exchange for their work a charity, just because they can't sue you if you cheat them.

Charity is when you give to a person or organization to help them, in exchange for nothing. Though maybe they give you a t-shirt or something.

But I'm pretty sure you know that. I certainly hope so.

Also, it is much easier to avoid accepting work from people who work for tips than to avoid working for tips. It's incredibly easy, actually. Just don't do it. But even to a worker, if they were constantly fuming about how much they hated working for tips (almost all of them like it, but let's just say...) I would say they should change jobs if at all possible.

It's a very unusual view you have, and for good reason. Paying $25 for a dinner and having the waiter make $16/hr in salary is fine. But paying $20 and tip and having them make $17/hr is some kind of crime against humanity. Most people like the second way, so that's how it's done. If you take the work without paying, you're a cheat.

About the only thing I won't tip for is a hand pay. Unless there are extenuating circumstances. As a matter of fact, I think the casino should have to provide a free play incentive for making me wait.😜

I don't drink alcohol so I constantly get screwed. 20 cents of cranberry juice, about 4 sips, in a glass of ice. $1 not for the supposed "free drink" but the fact that I didn't have to get it myself. I must drink at least a $1000 of cranberry juice per year. Oh well.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Why is the default most places to take both chips...

Don't know if it is. In Wisconsin players often tip by betting for the crew and specifying "player control." If it hits, the player may specify how to handle the win: parlay, drop part and let the rest ride, use the win to place another number, lock it all up, etc.

Though a couple weeks ago I was told by boxmen at two different casinos in Deadwood, SD that it was against state law to allow player control, though no one seemed to know why. I could only take them at their word. While $1 place bets were rounded up (a $1 placed 6 and the crew dropped $3), they miss out on those parlayed hardways...

To what Romes said, I think it's OK for an AP to tip less, and for the recreational players to tip more. Or for someone who is struggling to tip less and for someone who is rolling in it to tip more. That's part of the beauty of the system, I think.

When I play poker, I tip about a dollar per raked pot. Sometimes I'm a little stingy with small pots, especially if the rake is high, but this just serves as a reminder to avoid small pots when the rake is high. Sometimes I go a little more on big pots or if I suck out. I might also tip more if the dealer isn't making much.

Really, if I tipped like some recs, I couldn't play at all and then the dealer wouldn't get anything from me.

They probably have some kind of gambling budget that they will lose anyway, so it feels good to them to lose a lot of it on tips, rather than to the house. If I was a degen, I think I'd feel the same way.

As long as you're paying someone a reasonable wage for their work, I think you're OK.

As for maids and so forth, I think that gets into more complicated territory. Ever more people in our country are paid wages, but wages that are bellow poverty level. I think that has a lot to do with why tipping is spreading into new areas. Since those wages will probably just keep going down, this is probably for the best.

I simply don't want maid service during my stay, so I keep the sign up. When I leave, I tip about 3 bucks. They still got the room ready and will clean it up. I usually use the change I have accumulated.

Quote: RS

"I already tipped the cocktail waitress for you, why'd you give her a dollar? Are you insane, a $2 tip for a drink is ridiculous, period! Go find her and get your dollar back."

That quote kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

She was probably ugly or something, needed her to pass off her section ASAP and not keep coming back and hanging around. (-;

I thought she was getting $4 per trip for a soda and a drink. I have given much more, but in this case, It was not about the money, it was just the fact that she was getting double tipped once from you, and once from me. She should have said he already got me and gave you the opportunity to say, it's ok.

In fact, my premonition of tipping being "charity" is well-founded.

Quote:

The custom originated in Europe, and while its history is not entirely clear, it is commonly traced back to 17th century England. The word "tip" is speculated to be an acronym for "To Insure Promptitude," which was printed on bowls in British coffeehouses.

What is today considered a given started as a purely aristocratic practice — a mere "allowance" that the upper class would offer to the socially inferior.


It made its way to America after the Civil War (which ended in 1865), when wealthy Americans started traveling to and from Europe. They brought the custom back home to show off their worldliness, but it was immediately met with disdain.

Americans considered it anti-democratic, as it encouraged classism and further distinguished the wealthy from the masses.
These initial grumblings escalated into movements. In 1904, the Anti-Tipping Society of America was created in Georgia, and its 100,000 members pledged to not tip anyone for a year,

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tipping-2015-10

No it's not. Words mean things.

Paying someone in exchange for work in 2017 has nothing to do with Lord Fisslewick Boulderbottom throwing a half pence into the mud so that his houseboy might procure a goose leg for christmas day in 1817.

Charity: the voluntary giving of help, typically in the form of money, to those in need.
synonyms: financial assistance, aid, welfare, relief, financial relief; More

Tip: 1. a sum of money given to someone as a reward for their services.

Like I said originally, create whatever crazy narratives you want. Reinvent the English language. What you're doing is taking something without paying for it.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Like I said originally, create whatever crazy narratives you want. Reinvent the English language. What you're doing is taking something without paying for it.

No, I'm definitely not stealing. Stealing is a crime.

It is punishable.

"Stealing" isn't a crime. I think crimes are things like "larceny" and "robbery." Stealing is more ambiguous.

Anyway, I didn't say you were stealing. I said you were taking something without paying for it. This is objectively true. Somebody is doing work for you, and in exchange you give them nothing. You are getting their work. You are not paying for it.

Quote: Rigondeaux

You are getting their work. You are not paying for it.

I'm not making them work for me. They can quit any time they feel like walking out the door. It's certainly within their rights.

They can even go to court and try to get that tip you say I owe. Maybe Judge Judy will give it to them.

I don't understand why most people don't tip at the grocery store deli. They slice your cheese and meat to your preferred thickness, they weigh out your potato salad and coleslaw or whatever, they cook and serve hot food. They let you pick out what item looks best(no not that one, I want the big one) They are aways more than happy to give you samples of everything, they will give you and an entire slice of the most expensive cheese and meats.

Do you tip the kid bagging your groceries and putting it in your cart at Albertsons? They will even help you out to your car, I see it all the time but, I don't think they get tipped much.

People want to tip food servers 20% for food, but no one wants to tip the pharmacy technicians who help prepare and give you your life-saving drugs and probably make less than most servers in LV.

You seem to have this hang up where everything has to involve force, or being illegal.


No, you are not forcing them to work for you with a gun. You are however taking their work knowing that they work for tips. You are getting it for free, or close to free. You are not paying for it. You are taking something without paying for it.

This has nothing to do with force.

Hey, I didn't force that guy to make a bet with me at gun point, therefore somehow I'm not obligated to pay him. He should know that some people welsh on bets. I just personally believe that paying off on bets is bad for some reason. See, it's a charity, because it's not illegal to renege on an informal bet, therefore, blahblahblah.

Why delve into all of that mental pretzel making?

Just own it.

P.S. Don't tip in Irish casinos. They don't like it. The wage is better, and a tip means the house is losing.

Cultural differences.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Why delve into all of that mental pretzel making?

Just own it.

You've got a hang up with dictating your perspective on others about this.

You have to own that you haven't been given any such authority.

When you become dictator you can do that. Let me know when that happens.