What to do during a backoff or when flat-betted
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Zero incident, scene, or tragedy.
You behaved fine, like a gentleman, after getting caught doing something suspicious enough to be caught.
Quote: PaigowdanHow about an experienced gaming guy...
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Zero incident, scene, or tragedy.
You behaved fine, like a gentleman, after getting caught doing something suspicious enough to be caught.
Very true, in fact it happened to me and this is exactly what I did.
Although I requested several times to leave and was told I could not.
Now I have a lawsuit for six figures against them.
Because they BROKE the law, not me.
Quote: arcticfunMy first backoff was at Mohegan Sun in October, and I did everything wrong: showed ID, signed a trespass act, let security take a photo of me... I'm hoping some of the experienced players on this forum can put together a "Do and Don't" list for how to behave when approached by security/pit boss.
Counting cards breaks no laws and is most likely not even against the casinos rules of play. If you voluntarily followed their request and participated in their procedures you made a mistake. They have no right to detain you against your will for suspected card counting.
In my opinion, in the casino or outside, it's a dangerous thing to wave your rights.
ZCore13
In a backoff all you need to do is remain calm and respectful. When they want to make you sign stuff and take your picture that opens up a whole new can of worms.
Quote: PaigowdanHow about an experienced gaming guy...
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Zero incident, scene, or tragedy.
You behaved fine, like a gentleman, after getting caught doing something suspicious enough to be caught.
You can still behave like a gentleman and not forfeit your right to leave without further questioning, ID, trespassing, etc. He left without incident? What about his picture in OSN, or Griffin, that could endanger his RIGHT to play a game offered by other casinos?
While this might be what they want you to do, please understand this is not what you have to do. Most of what I would recommend I picked up from listening to gambling with an edge and Bob Nersesian, credible online sources of gambling law, and seeking actual council about the laws surrounding these events.
When approached and asked to flat bet or leave
1) Nothing needs said further, they want you to leave.
2) Collect your chips in your pockets.
3) Walk with a direct path to leave, making no contact with anyone, and saying nothing else (anything else you do they could try to use against you).
...Now what's more than likely going to happen:
When approached and asked to come talk to them
They want to get your info, trespass you, etc. They are a private establishment and may ask you to leave, but do not have the right to keep you from leaving, nor demand ID from you. They will constantly say things like "You really need to come with me." or even "You have to come with me!" but you don't have to, legally. The best things to do in this scenario:
1) Collect your chips in your pockets.
2) Stand up from the table and pull your phone out. Video record everything from here on out. Away from the table they can not make you stop video recording, nor are they allowed to grab the phone from you to make you stop (and if you get a video of them grabbing your phone - well then that's called assault, on video).
3) State very clearly you do not wish to stay, and that you wish to now leave the establishment.
4) Start heading for the nearest exit (again, don't try to cash chips out, you can do this another day). They might "surround" you at this point as to try to block you from leaving. Politely, but loudly enough to be clear on the video, again say "I would like to leave. Please let me leave."
5) Leave without incident.
If they surround you and won't let you, or touch you, or say something like "You either come with us or this is gonna get ugly." Then do indeed go with them, but know that at this point they are kidnapping you, holding you against your will, and the video you posses in your hands is now worth 6 figures or more. Most casinos know the law, and they know they have no right to hold you against your will. They will try very hard to keep you there with their ambiguous statements like "You really should come with me" or even "I just want to talk come on back to my office." Above all else, AP's do not want conflict. It is 100% within your right to stand up and leave the casino. They CAN NOT hold you against your will as you've done NOTHING illegal and they have NO RIGHT to hold you.
Knowing your rights and the laws are quite important. Had articfun known he didn't have to go with them, give him his ID (to go in OSN or Griffin), etc, then he could have simply walked out and returned another day to cash his chips. Again, I'm going to remind you... You aren't getting "caught messing around." You are doing NOTHING illegal. You are using your brain to play a game to the best of your ability, and nothing more. You are not a criminal. You did not do anything wrong. As much right as you have to use your brain they have to ask you to leave their private establishment, that's it.
Things NOT To Do
These are things you shouldn't do in EITHER situation or really any other situation.
1) Do not get in to an argument with them about letting you play. You won't win. Once they've identified you as a skilled player (which they don't like) they will never change their mind and let you somehow keep playing. I don't care if you're up, down, trying to get even, etc. You will not be the first person to ever change a casinos mind. Saying anything other than "I want to leave" will more than likely make the situation worse.
2) Do not physically touch ANYONE. They will try to surround you so even if you walk by them you have to brush shoulders. They could lie and say you were hitting them somehow and that's why they detained you, etc. This is why video is very important. Go out of your way to not touch someone, but as soon as you have a clear path to the door, leave.
3) DO NOT RUN. While it wouldn't be illegal to 'jog' out of a casino, this looks suspicious, and remember, you've done NOTHING wrong. You have zero reason to fear anyone in a casino so long as you're not 'cheating,' which using your brain is not cheating. To quote Bob, he said "Walk purposefully" towards the exit. You don't have to take your good old time, but you certainly don't want to raise any alarms like you're running. Security are like dogs. If they see something running, they want to chase it.
4) Do not go to any back rooms, hallways, etc. Always stay on the main gambling floor and attempt to leave. Do not follow any casino personal anywhere other than to an exit (if they want to escort you out). You are under zero legal obligation to follow them anywhere. It's like the owner of a 711 asking you to come to his back office because he wants to take your picture. He can't 'make' you follow him, nor detain you in his 711 back office. That violates numerous laws and he could be sued, just as a casino may be sued if they do the same thing.
5) Do not give your ID to anyone, ever, at this point. If you're getting ID'd to come in the casino, that's a different story... but if they're asking you to follow them, leave, or even for a cash out, you legally do NOT have to give them your ID (even for a CRT). The procedure written if you refuse ID on a CRT is they have to take down the best physical description of you they can, but they can't refuse you a payout (there's a whole other thread about this). See why it helps to know the laws surrounding what you're doing?
I'm sure there's a few more things I'll think of and possibly edit in, but this is off the top of my head. I highly encourage anyone interested in this to listen to the radio show with Bob (he's been on the show numerous times). I also suggest getting his book (amazon Bob Nersesian). Lastly, I would invite you to get your own legal council about the topic if you're any kind of a serious player.
Quote: arcticfunMy first backoff was at Mohegan Sun in October, and I did everything wrong: showed ID, signed a trespass act, let security take a photo of me... I'm hoping some of the experienced players on this forum can put together a "Do and Don't" list for how to behave when approached by security/pit boss.
A trespass for the first time? Is there more to the story?
Do leave immediately. Do not cash in chips. Do not pose for pictures. Do not show ID. Do not sign anything. Do not say anything other than asking if you're free to leave.
Do not antagonize these people. Tribal police were recently given full police powers, something they had been seeking for years, and they don't mess around.
DON'T argue with them, they will claim you were being disorderly and not complying.
If they block you, DON'T put your hands up at all, they will claim that's threatening or you attempt to attack them.
Don't touch, bump or accidentally or brush them.
If they grab you, don't fight or resist, calmly keep saying, I would just like to leave and ask them to call the police.
Never sign anything and never agree to anything.
Quote: 1BBA trespass for the first time? Is there more to the story?
I believe in his previous posts he was spreading like 8-1 blacks. They probably weren't too happy about his aggressive play.
ZCore13
Quote: PaigowdanHow about an experienced gaming guy...
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Zero incident, scene, or tragedy.
You behaved fine, like a gentleman, after getting caught doing something suspicious enough to be caught.
Could you describe "messing around"? Was he cheating? Breaking any laws? Giving up your rights is not good faith to most people.
Quote: Zcore13All excellent advice. As most everyone here knows I work in Casino Management. Casinos are not law enforcement. They are a private business. The have the right to refuse service to you but no right to detain you, require your id or take you to a "back room" for counting cards.
ZCore13
It's nice to see someone on the casino side who gets it.
Quote: RomesI believe in his previous posts he was spreading like 8-1 blacks. They probably weren't too happy about his aggressive play.
That's no too aggressive at this place and many times it won't trigger a skills check. Larger spreads are gotten away with every day and it may be due, in part, to the poor penetration.
Consistently winning and or camping out is another story.
I question one piece of advice that Romes suggested and that is to pull out your phone and start video recording the incident. Taking photographs and videos inside casinos is either illegal or against state rules in most places, so doing this now gives the casino employees a reason to treat you criminally. I wouldn't do that and really there is no need to. The casinos are kind enough to record everything for you and are required by law to turn over these recordings, which are usually the key piece of evidence in most court cases.
Best advice is to remain calm, non-threaten and educated. Know your rights and calmly express to whoever is attempting to detain you that you know your rights and that you wish to leave.
Quote: 1BBThat's no too aggressive at this place and many times it won't trigger a skills check. Larger spreads are gotten away with every day and it may be due, in part, to the poor penetration.
Consistently winning and or camping out is another story.
I also believe both of those were involved as he had quite the initial run and jumped from reds to greens to blacks spreading hard. articfun, could you confirm the spreads you were actually using?
Quote: kewlj...I question one piece of advice that Romes suggested and that is to pull out your phone and start video recording the incident. Taking photographs and videos inside casinos is either illegal or against state rules in most places, so doing this now gives the casino employees a reason to treat you criminally. I wouldn't do that and really there is no need to. The casinos are kind enough to record everything for you and are required by law to turn over these recordings, which are usually the key piece of evidence in most court cases...
This was directly from Bob on the radio show. Perhaps he was referring to Nevada state law only?
Quote: arcticfunMy first backoff was at Mohegan Sun in October, and I did everything wrong: showed ID, signed a trespass act, let security take a photo of me... I'm hoping some of the experienced players on this forum can put together a "Do and Don't" list for how to behave when approached by security/pit boss.
Were you doing something illegal, or just playing well?
Quote: 1BBA trespass for the first time? Is there more to the story?
Quote: RomesI also believe both of those were involved as he had quite the initial run and jumped from reds to greens to blacks spreading hard. articfun, could you confirm the spreads you were actually using?
Ya so .... I wasn't doing anything outside my MO, spreading 1-5 black at 2 hands (which I had been doing for months). I was flat bet because an absolutely unbelievable shoe with a TC of +8 (+9?) came up and I bet $1000 straight up (if you do this, do it 10x black, not 1x orange like the dumbass that I am).
The reason they trespassed me (after flat-betting me) is because I maybe sort of went back to the tables once the shift ended. It was a very idiotic move, though I wasn't warned in any way that the result of non-flat-bet play would be trespass act.
Quote: arcticfunThe reason they trespassed me (after flat-betting me) is because I maybe sort of went back to the tables once the shift ended. It was a very idiotic move, though I wasn't warned in any way that the result of non-flat-bet play would be trespass act.
I think most of us will agree they had every right to trespass you at that point. Did the casino handle everything politely and professionally?
As for how they handled it, it was absolutely and perfectly professional and polite all the way. After signing/photobombing, I was escorted to my room to get all my stuff out (escort guy waited outside), escorted to a cashier to get bennies for chips, then taken to the parking lot. The escort guy was very friendly
Quote: DRichI think most of us will agree they had every right to trespass you at that point. Did the casino handle everything politely and professionally?
As Paul Harvey used to say - "Now you know the rest of the story."
Quote: arcticfun
As for how they handled it, it was absolutely and perfectly professional and polite all the way. After signing/photobombing, I was escorted to my room to get all my stuff out (escort guy waited outside), escorted to a cashier to get bennies for chips, then taken to the parking lot. The escort guy was very friendly
I am very glad to hear that. Obviously i am not happy that you got trespassed, but they acted properly. Most of the stories we hear the casino acted aggressively and improperly.
Quote: DRichI think most of us will agree they had every right to trespass you at that point. Did the casino handle everything politely and professionally?
Eh, yes he was clearly pushing his luck, but that doesn't mean he had to be trespassed necessarily. I get why they would, I'm only pointing out that he could have still opted to leave.
After Being Backed Off / Flat Bet
After you've gotten your chips, left, etc (as previously described), you'll want to avoid that shop for some time. Some say a month, some say 3, some say a year. It really depends on the level of heat you got. If you were Flat Bet and not even backed off, I would give it 2 months before returning (on a different shift than the one I was flat bet on). If you were backed off, maybe 3-6 months. If they were trying to get you to stay/sign things to trespass you, perhaps a year or more.
The fact that you went back the same day on another shift (when I'm sure you were even on their 'daily notes') is what prompted the trespass. I don't blame the casino for trying, but at the same time (as I'm sure you're now aware) you could have just left and not given their ID, followed them, signed anything, etc. I don't blame them for trying to trespass you at that point, as it was a polite first move, in my opinion, to simply flat bet you. Kind of a "you got a little too aggressive for us, so here's the hint that we're noticing that... keep it down a bit more." To ignore this hint (speaking to people in general) would be inviting a bit more of a harsh response, such as them attempting to trespass you.
Quote: arcticfunThe reason they trespassed me (after flat-betting me) is because I maybe sort of went back to the tables once the shift ended. It was a very idiotic move, though I wasn't warned in any way that the result of non-flat-bet play would be trespass act.
I wouldn't be surprised if the house rules listed something like "Failure to comply with a directive from management may result in discontinued play, forfeiture of accumulated rewards/comps, and expulsion from the premises."
They're usually listed in a pamphlet up by the player's club, as well as a poster. (Yes, I read them, every time I go someplace new, because I'm weird like that.)
If you're playing rated, assume that your ID / players card is flagged once you're flat-bet. There's probably a pamphlet about the player's club rules that says "accounts without activity for a period of (x) months will be cancelled, and accumulated points and comps forfeited". After that time (actually, more than that, since they probably don't purge it immediately), it's possible that you get unflagged, but it's safer to assume that you're permanently marked at that property and chain.
Quote: PaigowdanHow about an experienced gaming guy...
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Dan is a former casino employee and
has been very outspoken on this subject
here. This is what I got out of Dan's comment:
1. You got caught messing around
They caught you doing something that's
perfectly legal, yet violates one of their
unwritten super secret casino rules.
2. you then complied in good faith
You fully admit you're a common criminal
in the casinos eyes and willingly submit
to whatever violation of your rights the
casino subjects you to because you
realize you have wronged them and are
an evil person.
3. and you went home without incident.
Once you've apologized a hundred times,
and they have every bit of personal info
you can possibly give them, they let you
go hours later after threatening to call
the police a dozen times and having you
arrested. You feel so relived once you leave
that you blubber like a new born baby all
the way home, vowing to walk the straight
and narrow from now on and never try
and steal the casinos money ever again.
But you know now what your rights are when gambling at non-indian estabs
Quote: EvenBobDan is a former casino employee and
has been very outspoken on this subject
here. This is what I got out of Dan's comment:
1. You got caught messing around
They caught you doing something that's
perfectly legal, yet violates one of their
unwritten super secret casino rules.
2. you then complied in good faith
You fully admit you're a common criminal
in the casinos eyes and willingly submit
to whatever violation of your rights the
casino subjects you to because you
realize you have wronged them and are
an evil person.
3. and you went home without incident.
Once you've apologized a hundred times,
and they have every bit of personal info
you can possibly give them, they let you
go hours later after threatening to call
the police a dozen times and having you
arrested. You feel so relived once you leave
that you blubber like a new born baby all
the way home, vowing to walk the straight
and narrow from now on and never try
and steal the casinos money ever again.
Post of the day!!
I predict that when my first back off happens, security will ask to see my ID. If I refuse, what if they say they need to check if I am over 21? Obviously, they are not checking for that reason, but do I still have the right to refuse this request?
Quote: darkozIndian Gaming establishments have their own set of rules
... and at least out here, any cheating (or suspected cheating) over $600 is treated as a federal crime.
Quote: AvincowNow a lot of people are saying that you should refuse showing ID when getting backed off. What if I am a youngster? I get ID'd when I walk up to a table, when I cash out, even when I order water from the bar!
I predict that when my first back off happens, security will ask to see my ID. If I refuse, what if they say they need to check if I am over 21? Obviously, they are not checking for that reason, but do I still have the right to refuse this request?
This is apples and oranges. When you just get to a casino and don't even play, the casino doesn't know who you are, nor that you're an AP player, etc. You should comply and show ID if you're young (or look young) to get in. They don't take info off your ID, they're just making sure you're of legal age to gamble. Even if you come up to a table, you may get ID's right when you sit down. Again this is just the dealer watching their own butt and checking you're of age. Now with that said, do NOT let them take your ID away from the table at that point though. They have every right to check your age, but not data harvest your information.
When you're getting backed off, or asked to come to a back room, that's different. This assumes you've already been ID'd to both get in to the casino, and to buy in / play at the table. At this point refusing to give ID isn't illegal either. If they say they think you were gambling underage then you can refer to the ID you got at the door, and at the table already. If they didn't ID you at the table then they already accepted you were of legal age and dealt cards to you.
The worse they could do, if they played the "you look under age" card is kick you out of their private establishment. I'm younger looking, especially when I shave. I've been ID's in Vegas going from one table to the next (it's quite annoying and frustrating considering my first trip to Vegas nearly a decade ago I didn't get ID'd once, anywhere). I get why they have to do it, I just wish there was a better protocol. Anyways, if I'm already playing and I get the tap, I am not giving ANYONE that works for the casino my ID, for any reason. At that point they have the right to ask you to leave, and you have the right to leave. Anything past that, refer to the previous posts.
If things get out of hand, it's good to be able to just walk out and not have to worry about getting your stuff.
Quote: BeardgoatI also would like some clarification on the no ID part. This guy was spreading blacks and even bet an orange chip. How is he going to be able to cash out? You can't just leave a casino and come back days later with orange chips.
I suppose it matters on how big the joint is. Mohegan Sun is huge, way bigger than many Vegas properties, and going to the cashier with pumpkins (even 5k blue chips) doesn't trigger anything but a "double" to check the money being counted. Assuming, of course, you're cashing in under 10k. If it's a two-table casino, I suspect it's a whole different story...
Quote: BozCould you describe "messing around"? Was he cheating? Breaking any laws? Giving up your rights is not good faith to most people.
It was not a question of breaking laws. Players know that certain activities (card counting, hole carding, capping, pinching, etc.), may be against the house rules and/or the law. If it's against the law, you may/will be detained. If it not against the law but against the house rules, you may be asked for ID, a picture, and be spoken to/have a discussion, but may not be detained, all of which you may or may not comply with; the OP did. So they requested certain things (ID, a photo), and you complied and left, and got on with your life and shared it here.
Certainly, if everything you did were fine by the standards, codes, and expectations of behavior that the casino expected of you, then obviously there would have been no cause to investigate you, and absolutely no incident to speak of.
Quote: Zcore13Counting cards breaks no laws and is most likely not even against the casinos rules of play. If you voluntarily followed their request and participated in their procedures you made a mistake. They have no right to detain you against your will for suspected card counting.
Yes, right. But again this is not a question of legality or illegality; it is a question of conducting yourself by the standards of the casino that you're in without regard to various state and county statutes. The OP wasn't arrested, no charges were filed against him, and no beat down occurred. He was simply asked for ID and a photo, and he complied and left, and he knew why he was noticed. He left.
Quote: zcore13In my opinion, in the casino or outside, it's a dangerous thing to wave your rights.
It may also be dangerous to challenge or to look for an altercation with security personnel that may themselves have issues or be trouble makers if you don't know who they are and whether or not they are stable, under the guise of "my constitutional rights." I won't volunteer to be another Rodney King if I didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to hide. Here's my ID and a smile for the camera. Present your evidence and file your charges, I've done nothing wrong.
Personally, if I were in the pit, I would have flat betted him or asked him to play craps, or even to leave if necessary, without questioning him.
I volunteer my players' card (or my ID if I don't have my players' card handy) every time I'm at the casino, and have had my picture taken with casino management, dealers, game designers, and security people many times, as often at the casino as at a night spot or barbeque.
I figure if I play by the rules, be a cooperative guest on private property, and watch my P's and Q's at the casino, I'll never have a problem at the casino. And if asked of something by them that I find reasonable, I comply and don't sweat it as an issue.
Quote: PaigowdanHow about an experienced gaming guy...
1. You got caught messing around,
2. you then complied in good faith,
3. and you went home without incident.
Zero incident, scene, or tragedy.
You behaved fine, like a gentleman, after getting caught doing something suspicious enough to be caught.
Are you a troll at this point?
"Suspicious"?
Now it is "suspicious" to play a game by its rules using only your intelligence? It's "suspicious" to not be stupid?
Quote: PaigowdanPlayers know that certain activities (card counting, hole carding, capping, pinching, etc.), may be against the house rules .
Dan, would you suggest a player ask
the pit for a copy of the house rules
before they play, to see if they will
be breaking any of them? Or at least
get them verbally from the floor?
To not break a house rule, a player
must be alerted to them first, right?
Quote: sodawaterNow it is "suspicious" to play a game by its rules using only your intelligence? It's "suspicious" to not be stupid?
I feel it is not the hallmark of intelligence to get ejected from a gambling hall for cause. Most people have no problem.
Quote: EvenBobDan, would you suggest a player ask
the pit for a copy of the house rules
before they play, to see if they will
be breaking any of them? Or at least
get them verbally from the floor?
No. The floor will inform you if there is an issue with your play. A tap on the shoulder, a "Pardon me, Sir," etc. You do not get any pre-flight lectures on how to conduct yourself when you walk into a place of business. You are expected to know going in, and you do.
However, you may ask them; see what they tell you.
Quote: EvenBobTo not break a house rule, a player
must be alerted to them first, right?
No. The floor will inform you if there is an issue with your play.
99% of the people seem to do just fine.
I thought I recalled reading somewhere that the chips are casino property, and technically, you are not supposed to leave the casino with any chips. Of course, if this is true, it happens all day long anyway, and it is certainly something the casinos do not enforce. But, is it something that could come up if you are leaving due to an attempted back off?
I have left many times with chips after a backoff or 86ing and it hasn't been a problem.Quote: RaleighCrapsI have seen quite a few suggestions to put the chips in your pocket, and leave immediately.
I thought I recalled reading somewhere that the chips are casino property, and technically, you are not supposed to leave the casino with any chips. Of course, if this is true, it happens all day long anyway, and it is certainly something the casinos do not enforce. But, is it something that could come up if you are leaving due to an attempted back off?
Quote: Paigowdan
No. The floor will inform you if there is an issue with your play. A tap on the shoulder,
.
But Dan, it would be better if a player
knew the house rules before he sits
down. Where can he find these rules,
where are they located? Are they posted
in the casino somewhere?
In atlantic city I once had a pit boss come over and tell me I couldn't play anymore after I got backed off numerous times. I was doing a solo play at that point so I just left. I went back to that venue at a later date, and used a backed off card with my real name on it in the high limit pit (knowing what would happen). Pit boss came over, pushed my bet back, and told me I couldn't play. I pushed my bet back into the circle and said "I can play if I want to." Game gets stopped (with other players at the table!), shift manager, head of security, and a few other suits came over and had a discussion in the pit. Then they come over and 5-50 me with a little paper sign they keep in the pit (since they can't legally stop you from playing in AC just because you're an advantage player). I spent the next few hours counting out loud, acting like I'm trying to look at the hole card (dealer wasn't even CLOSE to exposing, but me leaning really far back and tilting my head and focusing on the hole card made them super paranoid), and spreading 5-50 while the shift manager and a few other suits hawk me. Meanwhile my team mates are at another table doing a real play while the shift manager's got her head so far up her ass watching me for no reason. They even went as far as to tell the waitress that they're not to serve me any drinks, LOL, since I asked the waitress for a drink that would require a comp from the pit just to piss them off. I also did a few other things to make sure the suits that were hawking me didn't leave, like putting a double down bet on a pair of 5s and then insisting I wanted a split after the unfavorable card's dealt. It's a fine line what I can do to get attention vs what they can throw me out for though, so I had to be careful about that. You can't use vague hand signals, or do anything disruptive (like screaming at the dealer). And I kept making comments to the suits like "You sure you OK with letting me play? I'll be more than happy to sue you if you aren't." None of them ever said a word back, just stood there and stared at me with a stone face. Funniest thing in the world.
Quote: EvenBobBut Dan, it would be better if a player
knew the house rules before he sits
down. Where can he find these rules,
where are they located? Are they posted
in the casino somewhere?
Are you saying that they should prominently display their 'no counting' rule? Well, that's the funny thing. Counting is allowed! Unless of course you are good at it, which in that case, counting is not allowed.
Quote: sc15Depending on the venue, you can use getting backed off to your advantage if you got a team.
In atlantic city I once had a pit boss come over and tell me I couldn't play anymore after I got backed off numerous times. I was doing a solo play at that point so I just left. I went back to that venue at a later date, and used a backed off card with my real name on it in the high limit pit (knowing what would happen). Pit boss came over, pushed my bet back, and told me I couldn't play. I pushed my bet back into the circle and said "I can play if I want to." Game gets stopped (with other players at the table!), shift manager, head of security, and a few other suits came over and had a discussion in the pit. Then they come over and 5-50 me with a little paper sign they keep in the pit (since they can't legally stop you from playing in AC just because you're an advantage player). I spent the next few hours counting out loud, acting like I'm trying to look at the hole card (dealer wasn't even CLOSE to exposing, but me leaning really far back and tilting my head and focusing on the hole card made them super paranoid), and spreading 5-50 while the shift manager and a few other suits hawk me. Meanwhile my team mates are at another table doing a real play while the shift manager's got her head so far up her ass watching me for no reason. They even went as far as to tell the waitress that they're not to serve me any drinks, LOL, since I asked the waitress for a drink that would require a comp from the pit just to piss them off. I also did a few other things to make sure the suits that were hawking me didn't leave, like putting a double down bet on a pair of 5s and then insisting I wanted a split after the unfavorable card's dealt. It's a fine line what I can do to get attention vs what they can throw me out for though, so I had to be careful about that. You can't use vague hand signals, or do anything disruptive (like screaming at the dealer). And I kept making comments to the suits like "You sure you OK with letting me play? I'll be more than happy to sue you if you aren't." None of them ever said a word back, just stood there and stared at me with a stone face. Funniest thing in the world.
While I applaud the cleverness of your team's cover, I cannot say I commend your actions. To put it bluntly, it's sounds like you were being mean to the pit. I know it's supposed to be a war between counters and the pit, but I think there should be some civility in the matter. At the end of the day, they are there for a job and we are just there for fun. No need to make life anymore miserable than it needs to be for them.
Quote: sc15Depending on the venue, you can use getting backed off to your advantage if you got a team.
In atlantic city I once had a pit boss come over and tell me I couldn't play anymore after I got backed off numerous times. I was doing a solo play at that point so I just left. I went back to that venue at a later date, and used a backed off card with my real name on it in the high limit pit (knowing what would happen). Pit boss came over, pushed my bet back, and told me I couldn't play. I pushed my bet back into the circle and said "I can play if I want to." Game gets stopped (with other players at the table!), shift manager, head of security, and a few other suits came over and had a discussion in the pit. Then they come over and 5-50 me with a little paper sign they keep in the pit (since they can't legally stop you from playing in AC just because you're an advantage player). I spent the next few hours counting out loud, acting like I'm trying to look at the hole card (dealer wasn't even CLOSE to exposing, but me leaning really far back and tilting my head and focusing on the hole card made them super paranoid), and spreading 5-50 while the shift manager and a few other suits hawk me. Meanwhile my team mates are at another table doing a real play while the shift manager's got her head so far up her ass watching me for no reason. They even went as far as to tell the waitress that they're not to serve me any drinks, LOL, since I asked the waitress for a drink that would require a comp from the pit just to piss them off. I also did a few other things to make sure the suits that were hawking me didn't leave, like putting a double down bet on a pair of 5s and then insisting I wanted a split after the unfavorable card's dealt. It's a fine line what I can do to get attention vs what they can throw me out for though, so I had to be careful about that. You can't use vague hand signals, or do anything disruptive (like screaming at the dealer). And I kept making comments to the suits like "You sure you OK with letting me play? I'll be more than happy to sue you if you aren't." None of them ever said a word back, just stood there and stared at me with a stone face. Funniest thing in the world.
that is hilarious
Quote: AvincowAre you saying that they should prominently display their 'no counting' rule? .
Yes. Dan says they violate casino rules,
but where are these rules, exactly? Have
you ever seen them?
Quote: AvincowWhile I applaud the cleverness of your team's cover, I cannot say I commend your actions. To put it bluntly, it's sounds like you were being mean to the pit. I know it's supposed to be a war between counters and the pit, but I think there should be some civility in the matter. At the end of the day, they are there for a job and we are just there for fun. No need to make life anymore miserable than it needs to be for them.
sc15 took a page out of Ahigh's book.
Quote: AvincowWhile I applaud the cleverness of your team's cover, I cannot say I commend your actions. To put it bluntly, it's sounds like you were being mean to the pit. I know it's supposed to be a war between counters and the pit, but I think there should be some civility in the matter. At the end of the day, they are there for a job and we are just there for fun. No need to make life anymore miserable than it needs to be for them.
My team mates weren't counting. And I wasn't there for fun, I was there to make money. And the people I was being a dick to weren't the normal pit guys. One was the shift manager, and I'm pretty sure the other guys were people higher up in table games management/surveillance/security. There were like 5 or 6 people from management/security all standing around me staring. There's some really incompetent people in AC. I mean, one of the oldest tricks in the book is someone creating a diversion to cap a bet or switch cards (granted, what my team's doing is legal, but it's based on the same concept). It never occurred to them the reason I wasn't leaving is because I WANTED them to watch me. My other team mates played a session 2 - 3 times longer than we would otherwise be able to play, because the idiots in charge thought it was a good idea to send a bunch of people to watch a guy playing $5 a hand, instead of popping down the 5-50 sign and walking away.
Thing is, this isn't a typical back off situation. They really hate me. I went there almost every day for a month, would play the next shift right after getting backed off, would come back with fake IDs, and I even went as far as putting on some fake glasses and a fake mustache after they put up pictures of me in the pits
Quote: EvenBobYes. Dan says they violate casino rules,
but where are these rules, exactly? Have
you ever seen them?
Yes, I've seen them. Posters and brochures. I typically see a poster listing the house rules by the main entrance, and a brochure listing the house rules in the same literature rack with the brochure encouraging me to play Let It Ride and the brochure warning me about the dangers of problem gambling.
No, I've never seen "NO AP" or "NO WINNING" or "No playing to win" or "You cannot play intelligently" as a house rule. Lots of variants of "no cheating", but that would involve hand-mucking or using a shiner to read a hole card or the like.
Quote: PaigowdanIt was not a question of breaking laws. Players know that certain activities (card counting, hole carding, capping, pinching, etc.), may be against the house rules and/or the law. If it's against the law, you may/will be detained. If it not against the law but against the house rules, you may be asked for ID, a picture, and be spoken to/have a discussion, but may not be detained, all of which you may or may not comply with; the OP did. So they requested certain things (ID, a photo), and you complied and left, and got on with your life and shared it here.
So you're saying counting cards is against house rules... You realize counting cards is nothing more than using your brain to play a game intelligently, correct? You, by the transitive property, just admitted that using your brain is against house rules... You don't find anything wrong/discriminatory/immoral/evil about that? How they'll let all the dumb people play, but won't let the (as you state later) 1% of smart people play?
Secondly, you clearly haven't been in the situation where they 'ask' you to comply. They never come up and say "Hey, bud... You're free to do whatever, but it would really be an ease to me if you'd come with me so I can ask you some questions and get some information... no pressure though!" What often happens is they try to intimidate you, make you fearful, and lie to you about what you 'have' to do by surrounding you by 5-6 big security guards mean mugging you while a supervisor says things like "You have to come with me right now" or "This would be easier if you came with me." No, what would actually be easier, on everyone, is if I just left peacefully right now... but you'll never hear a supervisor inform the PATRON of that RIGHT because they try to deceive the patron of that right.
Quote: PaigowdanCertainly, if everything you did were fine by the standards, codes, and expectations of behavior that the casino expected of you, then obviously there would have been no cause to investigate you, and absolutely no incident to speak of.
"Expectations of behavior"... wow. So yes, everyone should not be their own person (within the law). You should all conform to the casinos standards and expectations! Come in, don't be loud, lose a LOT of money, NEVER try to actually win or use your brain in any way, and don't complain about it. That's the casinos standards/expectations.
Quote: PaigowdanYes, right. But again this is not a question of legality or illegality; it is a question of conducting yourself by the standards of the casino that you're in without regard to various state and county statutes. The OP wasn't arrested, no charges were filed against him, and no beat down occurred. He was simply asked for ID and a photo, and he complied and left, and he knew why he was noticed. He left.
If I'm acting civil, polite, and playing a game they offer by their own rules, how on Earth could I possibly be conducting myself any better? Oh, because I'm not conducting myself by their standards of losing, not using your brain, etc, etc? This is just a joke. No physical beat down occurred, but what about the intimidation and fear pushed on the patron (whom was doing nothing illegal) by surrounding him with tons of security and telling him that he has to come with them (when he doesn't) and then hurting his ability to play at not only their establishment, but anyone else's by adding him to OSN/Griffin? There was a tremendous amount of non-physical damage done here.
Quote: PaigowdanIt may also be dangerous to challenge or to look for an altercation with security personnel that may themselves have issues or be trouble makers if you don't know who they are and whether or not they are stable, under the guise of "my constitutional rights." I won't volunteer to be another Rodney King if I didn't do anything wrong and have nothing to hide. Here's my ID and a smile for the camera. Present your evidence and file your charges, I've done nothing wrong.
Now, if the casino is being all polite and just following its own standards, why on Earth should a player ever let themselves be suppressed from speaking up, speaking their mind, or questioning their actual rights? What you're referring to is ALLOWING them to intimidate you and push fear upon you to get their way. You're saying "roll over and take it, cuz who knows what might happen if you don't!" Please, lay a hand on me... because after you're done ASSAULTING me illegally, I'll be taking a large chunk of your casino, in terms of cash. The most EV play an AP has is to have their rights infringed upon, because it's such a rampant problem with casinos.
Quote: PaigowdanPersonally, if I were in the pit, I would have flat betted him or asked him to play craps, or even to leave if necessary, without questioning him.
Couldn't agree more. I wanted to be sure to let you know if/when I agree with you as well, although I fear this will be about it =P.
Quote: PaigowdanI volunteer my players' card (or my ID if I don't have my players' card handy) every time I'm at the casino, and have had my picture taken with casino management, dealers, game designers, and security people many times, as often at the casino as at a night spot or barbeque.
I figure if I play by the rules, be a cooperative guest on private property, and watch my P's and Q's at the casino, I'll never have a problem at the casino. And if asked of something by them that I find reasonable, I comply and don't sweat it as an issue.
If the casinos didn't intimidate, spread false information, and kick out players for using their brain, I would love hand over my ID, take pictures, etc, all the same! I wish I could be afforded that luxury, but the truth of the situation is that people who play using their brains CAN'T do that... Or they won't be allowed to play using their brains anywhere else either.
We might yet again agree! I figure if I play by the rules, am polite and cooperative in terms of their game (not intimidating requests/demands violating my rights), then I shouldn't have a problem either. The sad truth of the matter though, is they create the problem; I just want to fairly, and legally, play the game.
