What to do during a backoff or when flat-betted
Quote: Romes...
It's futile to argue with him about this. Check all the prior threads.
Quote: wudgedIt's futile to argue with him about this. Check all the prior threads.
I was just going to say the same thing. Don't engage; it's not worth it. No one's mind will be changed, nothing will be changed. The first dozen of these arguments with Dan might have had some interesting insights, but it's just 'round and 'round these days.
Quote: Dieter
No, I've never seen "NO AP" or "NO WINNING" or "No playing to win" .
Dan says these house rules exist yet
he can't tell us where to find them.
In fact, if you ask a floor person if
card counting is allowed, they will
say something like: I don't know,
or Knock yourself out, or Go ahead
and try it. If it's against the rules, why
don't they just come right out and
tell you?
Quote: EvenBobDan says these house rules exist yet
he can't tell us where to find them.
In fact, if you ask a floor person if
card counting is allowed, they will
say something like: I don't know,
or Knock yourself out, or Go ahead
and try it. If it's against the rules, why
don't they just come right out and
tell you?
I totally agree.
I think a big problem is that I have no idea what the rules are.
I play BJ and cout but do a light 1 to 3 spread.
Is a light spread all right with Dan? What are the rules?
I like to think while I play, thats why I stay away from slots.
I love Pai Gow poker and Dan is very familiar with this game.
Was playing at Golden Nugget Vegas, Dealer gets 2 pair and a straight.
I figure house way is to split the pair.
Dealer looks at our hands then her hand and plays the staight.
We complain to the Pit Boss.
Pit Boss has no idea how to set hands, he looks at the dealer and tells the players she's the expert.
Damm right she's the expert, expert at looking our hands and then deciding the best way to beat us.
I asked for a printed house way, they refused.
Casinos should be required to post rules.
Am I asking too much?
Quote: EvenBobDan says these house rules exist yet he can't tell us where to find them.
Do the rules allow me to vary my bets as I like, within the table limits?
Do the rules allow me to play out my hand as I like?
Quote: coilmanJust a question ....say you are there in your personal car...do you take your car when leaving or cab it out of there and come back later or have somebody else get it later?
Good question. Bob Nersesian discussed this (kind of) on the radio show. It's actually an invasion of privacy for the casino to call the cops and say "who owns this car," but quite often cops will do this because they figure "1 out of 100 might have a warrant and we can go arrest them." The issue Bob pointed out is the violation of privacy to the other 99, and how yes, it is illegal for them to do that.
That being said, I have no clue if casinos now days still do this, since it's at least a known topic of discussion among gambling attorneys. If you're a professional, or that is the only shop around you to play... Well then I guess I could grab a cab, go to a diner near by diner, get a milkshake, and then walk back and get my car in a couple hours. Most of the time I would guess it doesn't matter, but if you want to take the "safe rather than sorry" approach, yeah I'd leave my car there for a little while.
Best option of all... Park a block or two away (where the casino cameras certainly can't see your car) and just walk 1-2 blocks to the casino.
From what I can tell, nearly everone who plans on counting cards knows it is against the house rules, except in New Jersey where it is against the law for that to be a house rule.
Quote: Dalex64Where does it say that "house rules" have to be written down?
If they're not written down, what's to stop casino management from unfairly allowing one player to do an act but not another?
I think it's safe to say that everything is done by procedure - be it dealing, security, fills/credits, cage transactions, pit crew actions, slot handpays, slot stacker exchanges... and I think it's safe to say that those procedures are written down, so they're unambiguous for HR actions.
It's reasonable not to publicize the policies that don't directly affect the customers - like how the toke committee counts the boxes and divides them for the crew.
It's not reasonable to say "we have rules, but we won't tell you what they are, but you better follow 'em or we'll boot you out."
Quote: DieterIf they're not written down, what's to stop casino management from unfairly allowing one player to do an act but not another?
I think it's safe to say that everything is done by procedure - be it dealing, security, fills/credits, cage transactions, pit crew actions, slot handpays, slot stacker exchanges... and I think it's safe to say that those procedures are written down, so they're unambiguous for HR actions.
It's reasonable not to publicize the policies that don't directly affect the customers - like how the toke committee counts the boxes and divides them for the crew.
It's not reasonable to say "we have rules, but we won't tell you what they are, but you better follow 'em or we'll boot you out."
The only game I know where that is acceptable is Mao. Then again, the point of that game is to work out the rules.
Quote: Dalex64
From what I can tell, nearly everone who plans on counting cards knows it is against the house rules, except in New Jersey where it is against the law for that to be a house rule.
Thought crime?
If there is a rule, it cant be that thought is a crime.
Now if the spread is against the rules, well thats another story.
So lets say they make 1 to 8 spread or more against the rules, that can be enforced.
but
But if a whale wants to increase bets but play bad strategy, casino needs to back that person off also due to the spread.
They have drawn the line where skill lives, as they do allow you to follow something like basic strategy. Certainly that is a skill.
I don't think there is a law against uneven application of house rules. They have discretion.
So really, people appear to be complaining about the casino not doing something (post house rules) that they are not legally required to do.
Quote: Dalex64Where does it say that "house rules" have to be written down?
I guarantee if you ask the floor,
or even the pit manager, you will get
a non answer. If it's against the
rules and they won't tell you it's
against the rules, how fair is that.
It's like the super secret probation
in Animal House. It exists yet it
doesn't.
I've heard people mention that some card counters wind up having a placard brought to the table with $5-50 limits that are just for that player. How does that work? Are those stakes really just for that player, or can other players play them too? If not, is the placard placed beside that player so the dealer knows? In that case, what's stopping the player from knocking it off the table?
They bring the sign and switch it or put it in front of the regular sign. They then tell the other players that they can exceed the table max. If the sign gets knocked off they would just pick it up, that wouldn't change anything.Quote: DeucekiesQuestion about Atlantic City.
I've heard people mention that some card counters wind up having a placard brought to the table with $5-50 limits that are just for that player. How does that work? Are those stakes really just for that player, or can other players play them too? If not, is the placard placed beside that player so the dealer knows? In that case, what's stopping the player from knocking it off the table?
Quote: DeucekiesQuestion about Atlantic City.
I've heard people mention that some card counters wind up having a placard brought to the table with $5-50 limits that are just for that player. How does that work? Are those stakes really just for that player, or can other players play them too? If not, is the placard placed beside that player so the dealer knows? In that case, what's stopping the player from knocking it off the table?
When it happened to me they put the placard right next to me and told everyone that this sign applies only to me.
If you knock it off the table intentionally they can probably use that as a reason to 86 you for being disruptive. So I would not advise doing that.
Quote: knaglI've been told by a friend who used to work in surveillance that they also have automated facial recognition cameras at the doors.
Just like in 21! so....does it work?
Recently the above illicit and illegal cheating device has been making the rounds in several casinos. Surveillance is actively watching for it, since it may provide the player with an unfair advantage over the dealer's and casino management.
Quote: AvincowJust like in 21! so....does it work?
Doubtful.
I've never been backed off simply from walking through the door.
Quote: AvincowJust like in 21! so....does it work?
http://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com/2015/01/19/frs-nsa-salamanders-and-scapegoats/
Quote: sc15Depending on the venue, you can use getting backed off to your advantage if you got a team.
In atlantic city I once had a pit boss come over and tell me I couldn't play anymore after I got backed off numerous times. I was doing a solo play at that point so I just left. I went back to that venue at a later date, and used a backed off card with my real name on it in the high limit pit (knowing what would happen). Pit boss came over, pushed my bet back, and told me I couldn't play. I pushed my bet back into the circle and said "I can play if I want to." Game gets stopped (with other players at the table!), shift manager, head of security, and a few other suits came over and had a discussion in the pit. Then they come over and 5-50 me with a little paper sign they keep in the pit (since they can't legally stop you from playing in AC just because you're an advantage player). I spent the next few hours counting out loud, acting like I'm trying to look at the hole card (dealer wasn't even CLOSE to exposing, but me leaning really far back and tilting my head and focusing on the hole card made them super paranoid), and spreading 5-50 while the shift manager and a few other suits hawk me. Meanwhile my team mates are at another table doing a real play while the shift manager's got her head so far up her ass watching me for no reason. They even went as far as to tell the waitress that they're not to serve me any drinks, LOL, since I asked the waitress for a drink that would require a comp from the pit just to piss them off. I also did a few other things to make sure the suits that were hawking me didn't leave, like putting a double down bet on a pair of 5s and then insisting I wanted a split after the unfavorable card's dealt. It's a fine line what I can do to get attention vs what they can throw me out for though, so I had to be careful about that. You can't use vague hand signals, or do anything disruptive (like screaming at the dealer). And I kept making comments to the suits like "You sure you OK with letting me play? I'll be more than happy to sue you if you aren't." None of them ever said a word back, just stood there and stared at me with a stone face. Funniest thing in the world.
sc15,
OMG, that's so obnoxious. I love it!
Quote: wudgedhttp://beyondnumbers.lvablog.com/2015/01/19/frs-nsa-salamanders-and-scapegoats/
I keep hearing this and I still believe it (that FRS isn't that good), but I feel like there will come a time when it gets better; when it will be able to match photos that aren't dead-on, high-quality mug shots. I guess I just hope that time is far in the future.
I have only encountered a situation like this one time. I had finished playing, cashed my chips, and as I was walking out a floor guy stopped me and informed me that I was no longer allowed to play BJ there. I asked why (though I knew why). He just repeated that I wasn't allowed to play anymore. So I said okay and walked out and haven't been back since. There are other casinos in the area with playing conditions that I like, so it's not a big deal. Plus, I don't play all that much. I think I have the skill set and patience for long-term card counting, but I don't have the time or (especially) money.
A few years back I was cashing out my chips but held a red chip back. The cashier asked me "What about that one?" and I informed her I wanted to keep it as a souvenir. She then told me that it was against casino regulation to take chips from the property and that there were special souvenir chips available in the gift shop.
By now, I have a nice collection of chips and I do realize nobody cares. But if you are technically in the wrong, they might use it against you in a backoff situation. At the very least they should be able to ID you when you come into the property weeks later bringing those chips from the outside and trying to cash them.
Quote: CanyoneroA few years back I was cashing out my chips but held a red chip back. The cashier asked me "What about that one?" and I informed her I wanted to keep it as a souvenir. She then told me that it was against casino regulation to take chips from the property and that there were special souvenir chips available in the gift shop.
Staff ignorance isn't always limited to just the pit and dealers. What matters are the laws of the state, not the casino.
Quote:On the note of the casino being able to identify your car/license plate, I noticed a couple of years ago that the local Native American casino near me installed license plate readers at every entrance and exit to their parking lots.
So, install a hinge and fold down your license plate when you drive in, rent a car, or drive a friends.
Quote:There's no way to get in (or leave) without your license plate being recorded. I've been told by a friend who used to work in surveillance that they also have automated facial recognition cameras at the doors.
These facial recognition cameras can be beaten. Right now, they're not that great. The IR facial recognition cameras are the easiest to beat using infrared light within your therapeutic hat. The other type can be handled with facial lines, glasses, and or bandaids. Whenever you walk into the casinos, always look downward at the floor as you walk through bottle neck zones.
Get a hold of a new digital camera with the latest facial recognition software and have some fun. You'll find that you can get around them.
Casinos are NOT as efficient as most people believe them to be. The surveillance room has a limited number of people working, and they aren't paid very well.
Quote: Keyser
Casinos are NOT as efficient as most people believe them to be. The surveillance room has a limited number of people working, and they aren't paid very well.
The vast majority of people who work
in a casino don't want to be there, just
like any other job. They think about their
next break and how long till the shift is
over. What you're doing is way down
their list of priorities. Even in surveillance.
You hear from former employees that
motivation in that dept isn't very high.
Quote: KeyserLike most security positions, the surveillance job also doesn't pay much.
Makes a lot of sense doesn't it? Install high tech, expensive surveillance equipment and then pay low wages to those that operate it, almost insuring you will not get the best qualified. That's today's casino industry in a nut shell: everything is about cutting costs.
I believe in your average casino you usually have just three or four people in there, and maybe one person managing them.
Quote: KeyserI think typical starting wages are around $13 to $14 an hour, and they pretty much just require a diploma or GED. In other words, they make about as much or less than a typical city police officer or WalMart night security guard.
They make less than dealers!
Quote: RSThey make less than dealers!
And they make less than the waitresses.
In many casinos, the cocktail waitresses make more than the dealers and security!
Quote: KeyserAnd they make less than the waitresses.
In many casinos, the cocktail waitresses make more than the dealers and security!
Maybe we should tip the surveillance guys! :/
Quote: kewljMaybe we should tip the surveillance guys! :/
Oh....ha.....ha........ha.......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!
Quote: KeyserI suspect that surveillance personnel eventually suffer from the same break down in moral fiber that the dealer's inevitably experience.
Probably easier job for surveillance in that respect. Dealers have to put up with idiotic players day in and day out (and have to stand all day).
When reading the old dealer forums much of the moral fiber decay appeared to have been exacerbated by the mind games coming from the human resources departments.
I noticed that Harrah's properties tended to be really bad to work for. Many of the dealer's would sometimes tell you how much they hated the casino and how they were on final warning because of internal games by management. The Caesar's union blogs were quite interesting.
Quote: KeyserSurveillance employees have to deal with the outside auditors, the mind games of the human resources department, and the hubris of the surveillance manager.
When reading the old dealer forums much of the moral fiber decay appeared to have been exacerbated by the mind games coming from the human resources departments.
I noticed that Harrah's properties tended to be really bad to work for. Many of the dealer's would sometimes tell you how much they hated the casino and how they were on final warning because of internal games by management. The Caesar's union blogs were quite interesting.
So do you work in the industry or did you work in the industry, Keyser?
Quote: RSOh....ha.....ha........ha.......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!
Probably easier job for surveillance in that respect. Dealers have to put up with idiotic players day in and day out (and have to stand all day).
Surveillance is definitely the easier job. They spend most of the day sitting around not doing much. They used to have to do crap like changing tapes, but with the new digital systems all they really get called for is skills checks/payout disputes/some other kind of incident that requires the tape.
Quote: sc15Surveillance is definitely the easier job. They spend most of the day sitting around not doing much. They used to have to do crap like changing tapes, but with the new digital systems all they really get called for is skills checks/payout disputes/some other kind of incident that requires the tape.
I thought I read somewhere (a while ago) that surveillance people were kept almost completely segregated from other casino employees, because a large part of their responsibility was monitoring employees. So much so, that surveillance had separate entrances, to minimimze contact with other employees.
Working in casinos really has a devastating effect on most people. Casinos should do more to help people leaving casino employment cope in the outside world.
For example:
"This can certainly be a dark business. I've had 4 co workers commit suicide over the years and I never saw it coming. My perspective will be different from most due to the fact that I am a Christian and I actually take it seriously and try to live in a way that pleases God and honors people. I got out of the business for 6 years and was very hesitant to get back into it because it is so dark. However, I was unable to find work and decided to get back in on a temporary basis while pursuing school and a career change. Having a long term goal and a desire to walk each day in the things that God has for me to do that day is what allows me to disconnect enough from the environment to stay sane. However, I certainly want out of this business as soon as I can get out! Have you considered focusing on trying each day to accomplish something that has lasting value? That may be showing up for work on time and being an outstanding employee. It could be being friendly towards people you don't even really like. I hope this helps and I pray that you will find the purpose and direction that all of us need. Let me know if there's anything else I can do. God bless"
http://thedealerslounge.yuku.com/topic/5836/Anyone-ever-think-about-suicide#.VMVbLf7F-gY
