Brand New Counter - $40,000 bankroll - What should be my bet spread and at what table minimum?
What would be a better game to play?
(a). 8 deck, $5 table , H17, DAS, Late Surrender, Split Aces, but no resplit aces or double down - penetration 85%-90%
or
(b). 6 deck, $5 table, H17, DAS, Late Surrender, Split Aces, but no resplit aces or double down - penetration 65%-75%
Basically, the same game - only differences is the amount of decks and penetration. So I am trying to figure out what holds more priority profitability-wise - "less decks" or "better penetration"?
Thanks...
In this case the high end penetration of the 6 deck game is very average. That is about the bare minimum game that I would play and I am known to play games that other professional players won't bother with. Anything less than 75% penetration I won't touch. On the 8 deck game, I would play both the 85% and 90% penetration levels. 85% is good, 90% very good.
If the games were really close in penetration like both games at 75%, or even the 6 deck @ 75% and the 8 deck @ 80%, then fewer decks wins out, but the penetration levels you are listing aren't close.
Quote: kewljAnswer: (a). Good penetration is really important. Just a slight increase in penetration can make a big difference in your win rate.
In this case the high end penetration of the 6 deck game is very average. That is about the bare minimum game that I would play and I am known to play games that other professional players won't bother with. Anything less than 75% penetration I won't touch. On the 8 deck game, I would play both the 85% and 90% penetration levels. 85% is good, 90% very good.
If the games were really close in penetration like both games at 75%, or even the 6 deck @ 75% and the 8 deck @ 80%, then fewer decks wins out, but the penetration levels you are listing aren't close.
gotcha... thank you for your advice..
Also, I heard that in AC, they are not allow to ban card counters, I guess thats not true on an indian casino right?
Right. They bury you up to your neck, pour honey on your head and let the ants have at you.Quote: stabworldI guess thats not true on an indian casino right?
Unless it's the Redskins. they engage you in a football game and attempt to beat you, usually without success.
Quote: stabworldOk, so after 3 months of playing I have been flat-betted from my favorite casino. This sucks. I didn't even take them for that much..literally right under 3k. I mean, its not like I won 10's of thousands of dollars, why would they waste their time and efforts on somebody that only won 3k? Need some feedback and sharing of story's who share the same experience from being flat-betted and/or 86d. I'm upset they stopped my gravy train.
Also, I heard that in AC, they are not allow to ban card counters, I guess thats not true on an indian casino right?
Were you playing rated? If so that card is probably toast.
I also find counting cards repetitive and relatively boring. I mean here's the problem for me. To effectively have an edge, you have to make almost no mistakes. In poker, you can make mistakes and still have a good win rate, because other people make huge amounts of mistakes.
Quote: 1BBWere you playing rated? If so that card is probably toast.
Yes, I was playing rated everytime I played. I guess I shouldn't be playing rated. I'm not going to play rated anymore.
Quote: stabworldQuestion - With a $200 max bet, is that too low of a max bet to beat a DD $50 min bet game, poor penetration like 55-65% (no mid shoe entry) with a 1-4 spread?
With DD the betting spread depends on the penetration and, to a lesser extent, the rules. At 65% pen you could be looking at a break even game with the 1-4 spread. Again, it would depend on the rules. With 55% I would want to double that spread if I were to play at all. What are your rules, stabworld?
Without crunching numbers, 1-4 spread on a 55-65% pen DD (assume h17,das,noLS), I'm gonna say is positive. I'd guess about 3/4 of a "min bet unit" ($50) per 100 hands (heads up). A 1-8 spread is definitely stronger, but becomes more difficult. You can't just camp out and spread 1-8 on a DD. Gotta learn different tricks to hide your spread, make it look smaller, etc.
Then again, a 1-4 spread is going to have a very small edge if you're at a crowded table with few hands per hour and 55-65% pen. Hell, even camping out and spreading 1-8 on that game isn't worth it (not to me at least).
IMHO time is better spent elsewhere.
Quote: 1BBWith DD the betting spread depends on the penetration and, to a lesser extent, the rules. At 65% pen you could be looking at a break even game with the 1-4 spread. Again, it would depend on the rules. With 55% I would want to double that spread if I were to play at all. What are your rules, stabworld?
1BB- I believe these are the rules, but I have to double check next time I go (I never played the game before, just walked by it and observed a few times). I am certain of their 55-65% as I observed this personally. I'm basing my answer on the rules of their 8 deck game. If the DD has the same rules as their 8 deck game, then it would be:
DD $50 min bet, no mid shoe entry, DAS, Late Surrender, S17, split aces, (but no resplit or hit aces after split.) 55-65% penetration. (Again, I have to double check this next time I go). It seems if thats the rules, then it would be a good game with around a .2% house edge.
Quote: stabworld1BB- I believe these are the rules, but I have to double check next time I go (I never played the game before, just walked by it and observed a few times). I am certain of their 55-65% as I observed this personally. I'm basing my answer on the rules of their 8 deck game. If the DD has the same rules as their 8 deck game, then it would be:
DD $50 min bet, no mid shoe entry, DAS, Late Surrender, S17, split aces, (but no resplit or hit aces after split.) 55-65% penetration. (Again, I have to double check this next time I go). It seems if thats the rules, then it would be a good game with around a .2% house edge.
That is a very good game if those are indeed the rules.
Quote: kewlj
Many of the books written in 1980 and 1990, including such book as Wong's Professional Blackjack use minimum wager as the unit and then ramp up by that same amount. But again, the problem is that the game has really changed for the worse since then. In shoe games, you need to ramp quicker than that. Going $10-$20-$30-$40 and so on, is too slow of a ramp for todays games and just looks bad....shows too much info. You might want to look into that to both improve your results and preserve longevity.
This is very true, and well-said as always.CVBJ/CX/Data enlightened me greatly on ramping even a simple A-5 count. (Yes it can be done, and optimally)
I'm skimming the posts and my, after page 8 or 9 where the OP was using borrowed $$$, and played Poker, well, I didn't think this dead fish would grow to 27 pages. However there is one more tidbit I can offer, after studying the game. A lot of professional methods use additional indexes that maintain a certain level of S.D. My further advice is to play a simpler index that allows S.D. to DECREASE as the wager INCREASES... sd being the sqrt of Variance. Thus the basis for my original and busted (by me) post back on pg. 8 or 9.
-1/0/+1 = 1 unit
+2 = 2 unit
+3/+4 = 4 unit
+5 or more = 7 unit
bankroll 40G's, spread $15-$100 (105 is perfect), as confidence builds $25-$175
GG and GL
Quote: 98ClubsThis is very true, and well-said as always.CVBJ/CX/Data enlightened me greatly on ramping even a simple A-5 count. (Yes it can be done, and optimally)
I'm skimming the posts and my, after page 8 or 9 where the OP was using borrowed $$$, and played Poker, well, I didn't think this dead fish would grow to 27 pages. However there is one more tidbit I can offer, after studying the game. A lot of professional methods use additional indexes that maintain a certain level of S.D. My further advice is to play a simpler index that allows S.D. to DECREASE as the wager INCREASES... sd being the sqrt of Variance. Thus the basis for my original and busted (by me) post back on pg. 8 or 9.
-1/0/+1 = 1 unit
+2 = 2 unit
+3/+4 = 4 unit
+5 or more = 7 unit
bankroll 40G's, spread $15-$100 (105 is perfect), as confidence builds $25-$175
GG and GL
Interesting spread, but for me at this point, that would be too conservative, and I don't touch $15 tables, only $5 and $10 tables. I have been using:
I don't have a specific unit bet for my betting ramp at certain counts, but rather a range I have been using.
$5 table -
1-30 spread- max bet $150 (2 spots if possible) (80% of the time I am playing 2 spots at positive counts)
-1/0 - 1 unit
+1 - 1-2 units
+2 - 5-8 units
+3 - 10-15 units
+4 - 15-20 units
+5 or more - 20-30 units
$10 table-
1-15 spread - max bet $150 (2 spots if possible) (80% of the time I am playing 2 spots at positive counts)
-1/0 - 1 unit
+1 - 1- 2.5 units
+2 - 3-5 units
+3 - 5 -7.5 units
+4 - 7.5 -10 units
+5 or more - 10-15 units
This betting ramp and spread has been working well for me so far at the $5 and $10 tables. My stats as of right now, are 109 hours of play (remember the first 20-30 hours were my practice hours and I probably made quite a few mistakes). up $3,149 with an average hourly rate of $29.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThat is a very good game if those are indeed the rules.
Aces and Eights - What would you recommend as a spread and betting ramp for this game?
Quote: stabworldAces and Eights - What would you recommend as a spread and betting ramp for this game?
Would anybody recommend a bet spread and ramp for the above mentioned DD game?
I plan on playing it soon.
Thanks
I wanted to ask, if anybody knows of a simple-to-use calculator on the internet I can find, that can tell me the expected hourly rate earned when plugging in the game rules, count+indexes if any, bet amount, and spread used by the AP? This would be very helpful to me.
Thanks in advance.
Quote: stabworldAlthough nobody suggested any spread. I winded up using a 1-6 spread playing 2 spots on high counts - ($50 - $300) X2. I had an outstanding session. in 2.5 hours made $2,450. Bringing my lifetime blackjack play to 127 hours, earning $6,831, with an average hourly rate of $54.
I wanted to ask, if anybody knows of a simple-to-use calculator on the internet I can find, that can tell me the expected hourly rate earned when plugging in the game rules, count+indexes if any, bet amount, and spread used by the AP? This would be very helpful to me.
Thanks in advance.
You never verified the rules and there is a big difference between 55% and 65% penetration on a double deck game. How many other players at the table?
A word of caution. Spreading to two hands on a double deck game can be a huge red flag. Are you playing rated? If you must play two hands start with two to make it less obvious. Is this a NMSE game where you are allowed to spread?
Go to Qfit.com. It should have everything you're looking for and some of it is free. If what you need is not free, it is well worth what Norm charges. You won't be sorry.
Quote: stabworldAlthough nobody suggested any spread. I winded up using a 1-6 spread playing 2 spots on high counts - ($50 - $300) X2. I had an outstanding session. in 2.5 hours made $2,450. Bringing my lifetime blackjack play to 127 hours, earning $6,831, with an average hourly rate of $54.
I wanted to ask, if anybody knows of a simple-to-use calculator on the internet I can find, that can tell me the expected hourly rate earned when plugging in the game rules, count+indexes if any, bet amount, and spread used by the AP? This would be very helpful to me.
Thanks in advance.
If you want to take this seriously, and it sounds like you do, you need to purchase Norm Wattenberger's CVCX software to answer your questions. It will tell you your expected return, risk of ruin, etc. for whatever game (rules, penetration) you choose to sim. and the count and indices you use. It will tell you at what counts you should be ramping, etc. Your bankroll will thank you in the long run for the investment, there is not a better tool we have.
Rules are as follows:
2 deck - DAS (up to 4 times), RSA (up to 2 times), Late Surrender, S17, DD any 2 cards
Penetration varies by dealer between 55%-65% but, I would say on average its closer to 55%.
They have a few of these tables running and its rare to have more than 3 players at any given table, and quite often you are heads up or have only 1 other player at the table.
I played rated for the session I just did at the 2 deck game, but I do not intend to play rated any longer. The phone was ringing in the pit a few times while I played my session. Does the phone ringing always indicate bad news for counters? or can it be unrelated to card counters at tables?
Sorry, What do you mean by NMSE?
Quote: stabworldThe phone was ringing in the pit a few times while I played my session. /q] AxelWolf: LOL .....
usually the pit gets on the phone and calls.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Quote: AxelWolfAxelWolf: LOL .....Quote: stabworldThe phone was ringing in the pit a few times while I played my session. /q] .
usually the pit gets on the phone and calls.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
I'm not crazy about 55% penetration but at least the rules are good. A 1-8 spread should do it.
At +1 or less bet 1 unit.
At +2 bet 2 units.
At +3 bet 4 units.
At +4 bet 8 units.
You cannot camp out at this game, you must keep your sessions short and leave after your max bet has been exposed. What you absolutely can't do is revert to your base bet after they've seen your max bet.
These days heat comes from the sky. I like to say that the scowling pit boss is almost a thing of the past. Be aware of what's happening in the pit but don't read too much into a ringing phone. I'd probably be more suspicious if it never rang.
the ramp I used was:
-1 - 0 - $50
+1 - $100 (2 spots) (the rules are so good, that, at a +1 i'm at around a .35% player advantage, hence raising my bet at +1.
+2 - $150 (2 spots)
+3 - $200 (2 spots)
+4+- $300 (2 spots)
I tend to play a 2- 5 hour playing session each time I play. I probably get my max bet out and revert back to a base bet on the new shuffle at least 8-10 times during these playing sessions. I guess that's why I got "flat betted" at my favorite casino.
When you suggest leaving after my max bet has been exposed, do you mean go to another table; or quit playing blackjack period in that casino for the day, or at least until another shift?
I must admit I really hate that concept, because that's under an hour of play, and I drive quite a bit to go to a stand alone casino, with no other neighboring casino's in the area. I definitely would not drive 3 hours round trip to play 1 hour of blackjack, I'm glad I play poker also.
Quote: stabworldOh. Yes, it is a "no mid shoe entry game".
the ramp I used was:
-1 - 0 - $50
+1 - $100 (2 spots) (the rules are so good, that, at a +1 i'm at around a .35% player advantage, hence raising my bet at +1.
+2 - $150 (2 spots)
+3 - $200 (2 spots)
+4+- $300 (2 spots)
I tend to play a 2- 5 hour playing session each time I play. I probably get my max bet out and revert back to a base bet on the new shuffle at least 8-10 times during these playing sessions. I guess that's why I got "flat betted" at my favorite casino.
When you suggest leaving after my max bet has been exposed, do you mean go to another table; or quit playing blackjack period in that casino for the day, or at least until another shift?
I must admit I really hate that concept, because that's under an hour of play, and I drive quite a bit to go to a stand alone casino, with no other neighboring casino's in the area. I definitely would not drive 3 hours round trip to play 1 hour of blackjack, I'm glad I play poker also.
Stabworld, I don't remember what area it is that you play, but I play not too far off from the same level of play (I spread a little higher) and I play a mix of shoe and DD games in Vegas at these levels including some of the sweatier places, and I rarely get backed off. I do play short sessions and in shoe games only show my spread once, exiting at first shuffle after showing max bet. DD games I will show my spread usually twice. But there are some other tricks you can use to help not make your play and spread so obvious. And yes, don't mean to insult you but your spread is horribly obvious.
First here in Vegas spreading to 2 hands in positive counts is a huge 'tell'. Maybe it isn't so much where you play, but here it really is a big giveaway. You might consider playing one spot all the time, or playing two all the time or even playing 2 and DROPPING to one in negative counts when it looks like the count won't turn before the shuffle. But spreading to 2 hands in positive counts is just easy pickings for casino personnel.
Point two. $100 check play? Does your place do this? Most do. The thing I am thinking is that if they do, at the exact time you raise you bet and the dealer sounds the alert by yelling "checks play", happens to be the same time you are spreading to two hands. When the pit looks over they are sure to notice. So I wouldn't spread to 2 hands at that checks play point. If you are going to spread to 2 hands do so after you have breached the checks play threshold.
Next, I recommend mixing up your wagers a little more. What you are doing is way too uniform. Again, Very easy to notice. One trick I like to do is start higher than my minimum wager at maybe 1.5 or twice minimum wager and then drop to minimum wager in negative counts. For example I often open with $75 bet and then drop to $50 in negative counts. It would still be a $50-$300 spread, if you were using the same $300 max bet that you mentioned this would have a couple advantages like it would look more like a 1-4 spread $75-$300, unless the count both went negative and then positive to your max bet in the same shuffle which rarely happens. So when the counts goes positive it looks 1-4 ($75-$300) and if it goes negative it looks like you are wagering $50/$75. You are 'showing' a little less spread, but it is still there.
Not only do I like to make my first bet an odd amount like $75, but my first jump is to an odd amount like $125. It just doesn't look as uniform and looks more sporadic. Another good thing about starting at $75 is that then it really is no surprise to the pit when you raise and the dealer yells "checks play". They are almost expecting it. Odds amounts are advantageous on early counts because you won't be insuring those hands anyway, so no odd insurance wagers.
Now if you absolutely don't want to start at anything but your minimum wager, which makes your full spread easier too see, then at least do not retreat all the way back to minimum wager at the shuffle after ending with a max or bigger wager. That is just poison.
Double deck games are a different beast. Better EV than shoe games, but you have to alter your attack and be more creative, if you want any kind of longevity. Just some suggestions. Good luck.
Quote: kewljStabworld, I don't remember what area it is that you play, but I play not too far off from the same level of play (I spread a little higher) and I play a mix of shoe and DD games in Vegas at these levels including some of the sweatier places, and I rarely get backed off. I do play short sessions and in shoe games only show my spread once, exiting at first shuffle after showing max bet. DD games I will show my spread usually twice. But there are some other tricks you can use to help not make your play and spread so obvious. And yes, don't mean to insult you but your spread is horribly obvious.
First here in Vegas spreading to 2 hands in positive counts is a huge 'tell'. Maybe it isn't so much where you play, but here it really is a big giveaway. You might consider playing one spot all the time, or playing two all the time or even playing 2 and DROPPING to one in negative counts when it looks like the count won't turn before the shuffle. But spreading to 2 hands in positive counts is just easy pickings for casino personnel.
Point two. $100 check play? Does your place do this? Most do. The thing I am thinking is that if they do, at the exact time you raise you bet and the dealer sounds the alert by yelling "checks play", happens to be the same time you are spreading to two hands. When the pit looks over they are sure to notice. So I wouldn't spread to 2 hands at that checks play point. If you are going to spread to 2 hands do so after you have breached the checks play threshold.
Next, I recommend mixing up your wagers a little more. What you are doing is way too uniform. Again, Very easy to notice. One trick I like to do is start higher than my minimum wager at maybe 1.5 or twice minimum wager and then drop to minimum wager in negative counts. For example I often open with $75 bet and then drop to $50 in negative counts. It would still be a $50-$300 spread, if you were using the same $300 max bet that you mentioned this would have a couple advantages like it would look more like a 1-4 spread $75-$300, unless the count both went negative and then positive to your max bet in the same shuffle which rarely happens. So when the counts goes positive it looks 1-4 ($75-$300) and if it goes negative it looks like you are wagering $50/$75. You are 'showing' a little less spread, but it is still there.
Not only do I like to make my first bet an odd amount like $75, but my first jump is to an odd amount like $125. It just doesn't look as uniform and looks more sporadic. Another good thing about starting at $75 is that then it really is no surprise to the pit when you raise and the dealer yells "checks play". They are almost expecting it. Odds amounts are advantageous on early counts because you won't be insuring those hands anyway, so no odd insurance wagers.
Now if you absolutely don't want to start at anything but your minimum wager, which makes your full spread easier too see, then at least do not retreat all the way back to minimum wager at the shuffle after ending with a max or bigger wager. That is just poison.
Double deck games are a different beast. Better EV than shoe games, but you have to alter your attack and be more creative, if you want any kind of longevity. Just some suggestions. Good luck.
Kewlj - thank you for that sound advice. I will attempt to make my spread less obvious by mixing it up a little. In answer to your question, yes they do check play at $100 where I play. However, instead of yelling "check play", they usually say "$100's out" or something to that affect. I notice that they will not really check play as much if i'm betting red-greens to make the $100, but almost always call out the check play when its a black chip. So I usually try not to bet with the blacks.
In regards to playing 2 spots, I really like it because of 3 factors:
1. the decrease in variance
2. decrease in risk of ruin
3. more money on the table when the count is in the positive.
Those 3 advantages make it worth it for me even at the risk of exposure to casino personnel.
On a different note, I'm am curious to know what some other counters are buying into the table with in relation to their max bet? I personally buy into the table with 5X my max bet and have a 2nd or 3rd buy in my pocket and will reload when I'm down to 3 max bets or less.
What are other counters doing out of curiosity?
Quote: stabworld
On a different note, I'm am curious to know what some other counters are buying into the table with in relation to their max bet? I personally buy into the table with 5X my max bet and have a 2nd or 3rd buy in my pocket.
What are other counters doing out of curiosity?
My partner and I keep a chip inventory for the casinos in our regular rotation. That way I can enter a game without the announcement and pit approval of a buy-in. I just walk up with a few greens and start playing. If I am real lucky, I can get in and out without the pit even knowing I was there. But usually someone will take notice or perhaps I will have to buy in once I get into my spread start betting bigger. But by that time, I might be exiting shortly, so at the very least I have given minimum time for anyone to take a look at my play.
When I do buy in, at a casino not in my regular rotation or because we don't happen to have chips available, I buy in VERY small. If I am playing a game (shoe game) where my minimum wager is $25, I buy in for $100. If my min wager is $50 or $75, I buy in for $200. and for effect, I make sure I do so with 20's and maybe even a couple $10. First impressions are big. And this first impression say, Hey, I don't have much money and am not threat. If the count rises and I need to bet bigger and subsequently buy in for more, that just looks like I am 'chasing'. Eventually I may have to buy in several times and once I am betting big (max), that first impression is out the window and someone may be taking notice of me, but at least, I have bought some time, and again, am probably exiting just about the time anyone seriously begins to take a look at my game.
Quote: kewljMy partner and I keep a chip inventory for the casinos in our regular rotation. That way I can enter a game without the announcement and pit approval of a buy-in. I just walk up with a few greens and start playing. If I am real lucky, I can get in and out without the pit even knowing I was there. But usually someone will take notice or perhaps I will have to buy in once I get into my spread start betting bigger. But by that time, I might be exiting shortly, so at the very least I have given minimum time for anyone to take a look at my play.
When I do buy in, at a casino not in my regular rotation or because we don't happen to have chips available, I buy in VERY small. If I am playing a game (shoe game) where my minimum wager is $25, I buy in for $100. If my min wager is $50 or $75, I buy in for $200. and for effect, I make sure I do so with 20's and maybe even a couple $10. First impressions are big. And this first impression say, Hey, I don't have much money and am not threat. If the count rises and I need to bet bigger and subsequently buy in for more, that just looks like I am 'chasing'. Eventually I may have to buy in several times and once I am betting big (max), that first impression is out the window and someone may be taking notice of me, but at least, I have bought some time, and again, am probably exiting just about the time anyone seriously begins to take a look at my game.
hmmmmm, interesting, I will consider this. So buying in for $1,000 into a $5 or $10 table min game, is not very good I guess.
How often would you frequent any one casino per week? month?
I was thinking, to heading out to AC for the summer 3 days out of the week, and visiting 2 casino's per day, 3 days a week, for a total of 6 casino's that week, each week for the month. That way I am only going into any given casino only twice a month. But, my plan was to do a 3-5 hour session in each casino. Now I have to re-strategize that plan, after learning that I should be exiting a playing session after my max bet has been exposed.
Quote: kewljMy partner and I keep a chip inventory for the casinos in our regular rotation. That way I can enter a game without the announcement and pit approval of a buy-in. I just walk up with a few greens and start playing. If I am real lucky, I can get in and out without the pit even knowing I was there. But usually someone will take notice or perhaps I will have to buy in once I get into my spread start betting bigger. But by that time, I might be exiting shortly, so at the very least I have given minimum time for anyone to take a look at my play.
When I do buy in, at a casino not in my regular rotation or because we don't happen to have chips available, I buy in VERY small. If I am playing a game (shoe game) where my minimum wager is $25, I buy in for $100. If my min wager is $50 or $75, I buy in for $200. and for effect, I make sure I do so with 20's and maybe even a couple $10. First impressions are big. And this first impression say, Hey, I don't have much money and am not threat. If the count rises and I need to bet bigger and subsequently buy in for more, that just looks like I am 'chasing'. Eventually I may have to buy in several times and once I am betting big (max), that first impression is out the window and someone may be taking notice of me, but at least, I have bought some time, and again, am probably exiting just about the time anyone seriously begins to take a look at my game.
kewlj - if you don't mind me asking. Do you and your partner do the traditional: 1 person sits and flat bets keeping a count and signaling to team member when the count is high, - team member sits, and bets table max?
If not, what are you and your partner doing as a team?
Quote: stabworldhmmmmm, interesting, I will consider this. So buying in for $1,000 into a $5 or $10 table min game, is not very good I guess.
I was thinking, to heading out to AC for the summer 3 days out of the week, and visiting 2 casino's per day, 3 days a week, for a total of 6 casino's that week, each week for the month. That way I am only going into any given casino only twice a month. But, my plan was to do a 3-5 hour session in each casino. Now I have to re-strategize that plan, after learning that I should be exiting a playing session after my max bet has been exposed.
GOD NO! $1000 buy in for $5 or $10 minimum is a horrible idea. Huge red flag. It just screams that you are up to something and will be betting bigger at some point. It unnecessarily puts them on alert.
Heading to AC?? Sounds like you better hurry. From the sounds of things they are turning out the lights and locking the doors. Lol.
I now simply walk around the h17/8 decks MSE games for about 20-25 minutes and just wait for a better than 50% situation to arrise. Sometimes it will, most of the time it won't, but it's still a chance to take a break from poker for a bit.
Quote: kewljGOD NO! $1000 buy in for $5 or $10 minimum is a horrible idea. Huge red flag. It just screams that you are up to something and will be betting bigger at some point. It unnecessarily puts them on alert.
Heading to AC?? Sounds like you better hurry. From the sounds of things they are turning out the lights and locking the doors. Lol.
I guess I shouldn't have bought in for $2,000 at the $50 DD game eighter.
Ya, I know the showboat and trump are scheduled to close in late august to mid sept.
Quote: Lemieux66I've completely altered my blackjack approach. I decided that I need to spend more time in the poker room so I am now treating blackjack as a "break" activity if the table is bad/I'm frustrated.
I now simply walk around the h17/8 decks MSE games for about 20-25 minutes and just wait for a better than 50% situation to arrise. Sometimes it will, most of the time it won't, but it's still a chance to take a break from poker for a bit.
I have been going the other way, playing less poker and more blackjack. I have been making more per hour in blackjack then in poker.
Quote: stabworldI have been going the other way, playing less poker and more blackjack. I have been making more per hour in blackjack then in poker.
As a general rule, this is bad. More variance in blackjack. More opportunity for things to go sour. Better to do poker since you have more control.
Quote: stabworldWhen you suggest leaving after my max bet has been exposed, do you mean go to another table; or quit playing blackjack period in that casino for the day, or at least until another shift?
I must admit I really hate that concept, because that's under an hour of play, and I drive quite a bit to go to a stand alone casino, with no other neighboring casino's in the area. I definitely would not drive 3 hours round trip to play 1 hour of blackjack, I'm glad I play poker also.
Yeah. I'm in the same boat. It sucks! This is why I love heading to Vegas to play blackjack. Lots of short sessions and just walk to the next casino.
In my home territory, I push the limits. I've been backed off a few times, but I'm just a hobbyist, so if it happens it happens. I'll usually play for a couple hours with no cover and a max bet in the $200-$300 range (lower end of the range for DD). A lot of places are either completely out of it, or just tolerant of my action.
But when I drive 45 minutes to get to the best DD game in the area, I can't just walk away after exposing my top bet a couple of times :).
Quote: stabworldI want to get counters opinions, on the subject of playing rated or not. Good? Bad? What are you doing in regards to this?
I prefer to play unrated. The comps these days suck so bad, it's just not worth it at my betting level to give up my identity.
If you're betting 4 figures or more consistently, I can imagine the lack of comps can start to hurt (I've never bet this big, but I now AxiomOfChoice plays rated in this level). If I were serious about blackjack (again, just a hobbyist) I would probably invest in a second identity. Not sure how I would go about it, but there are legal ways to get an alias and get some kind of official ID using that alias. Then register for your player's cards under that name and if you get burned out, you still have your real name free and clear. But not your real face, of course :).
As it is, I just deflect the question. Sometimes I play dumb..."Do you have a player's card sir?" "huh? What's that, how does that work?" I'm not a great actor though, so I usually just go with the one syllable "nah." If they press it (few places do, really) sometimes I'll say I'm worried about identity theft (which is a legitimate concern, for sure). If you're good at ad-libbing and a better liar than I am, then just play it by ear.
The lack of a card is almost always a yellow flag, but it's entirely possible to play successfully unrated.
Quote: AcesAndEightsIf you're betting 4 figures or more consistently, I can imagine the lack of comps can start to hurt (I've never bet this big, but I now AxiomOfChoice plays rated in this level).
Woah, no I don't!! My top bet is into 4 figures, but my average is not. I generally don't ask about my ratings but I doubt I've ever been rated at 4 figures (well, maybe once)
If you play rated and with a credit line (even a minimal one like $10k) and play black (or even mostly black) I think that the comps are pretty good. At the very least, free rooms/suites and enough comped off your room bill to get you meals and show tickets. You definitely don't need thousand-dollar bets to get this -- spreading $100-$500 at a good double deck game is enough (come out with more than $100 off the top; it helps your rating AND it makes your spreading easier, and costs you a few cents in a game with a house edge in the 0.25% to 0.3% range). This is doable with a $10k credit line (five $2000 buy-ins)
I played 14 hours for the 2 days I was down there, winning a total of $4,700, using a 1-20 spread (playing 2 spots) $300 max bet. (Thinking of raising my max bet to $400 next week). Bringing my lifetime counting stats to 140 hours - winning $11,706.
I played rated on all the games I played. I notice that the majority of the casino's there, limit you to playing 1 hand and cap your bets at usually around 10X the table minimum if you choose not to play rated. I guess this is their defense since they are not allowed to ban card counters from their casino per New Jersey State Law.
After taking the advice of other posters here, I have left the game at the end of the shoe after exposing my max bet and did not camp out. There are 11 casino's in AC, so that was fine, since I have 10 other casino's to visit after I leave 1.
I wanted to ask the advice from other counters on the subject of playing rated. I'm a little worried about playing rated, as I already was "flat betted" from my favorite casino here on the East Coast (not a casino in AC). How many hours of play do you think I can keep on playing rated before they start to take notice of my win/loss rate and identify me as an advantage player? It took 80 hours until I was confronted by casino personnel to flat bet me at my favorite casino.
I guess I can play rated until they say anything to me, then I just start playing unrated and have to deal with the crappy playing conditions of playing 1 spot and only spreading 1-10. Which may not even be worth it at the lower level tables. But, then again, this is only some of the AC casino's, not all. Some will let you go 12X or 15X the table min at 1 spot playing unrated.
Maybe some counters on this forum who frequently plays in Atlantic City, can give some insight? Thanks.
Quote: kewljGOD NO! $1000 buy in for $5 or $10 minimum is a horrible idea. Huge red flag. It just screams that you are up to something and will be betting bigger at some point. It unnecessarily puts them on alert.
Heading to AC?? Sounds like you better hurry. From the sounds of things they are turning out the lights and locking the doors. Lol.
Kewlj - I listened to the advice you gave about not buying in big when sitting down at the table. The problem I have with that, is I personally use my chips to keep the running count. So buying in small, limits the chips I have to do this, it's just impossible for me to keep the running count without at least 20 chips in front of me. So, what I did, is found a happy medium, instead of buying in for $1,000 at a $10 table, Ive been buying in for $300. I know its still pretty high for your standards, but it allows me to have enough red chips on the table to keep my running count, and a few greens, when i'm betting bigger.
Quote: stabworldKewlj - I listened to the advice you gave about not buying in big when sitting down at the table. The problem I have with that, is I personally use my chips to keep the running count. So buying in small, limits the chips I have to do this, it's just impossible for me to keep the running count without at least 20 chips in front of me. So, what I did, is found a happy medium, instead of buying in for $1,000 at a $10 table, Ive been buying in for $300. I know its still pretty high for your standards, but it allows me to have enough red chips on the table to keep my running count, and a few greens, when i'm betting bigger.
Be careful about using chips to use a count. It makes it easy for the floor to see that you are counting. It is also illegal in some places to use ANY aids to get an advantage.
Quote: stabworldUpdate to my play if anybody is interested. Had a real good trip down in Atlantic City. First time I ever counted down there. Played some $10 through $25 tables, but mostly the $10 - and $15 tables. I have to say the game rules pretty much suck out there, no late surrender, no resplit aces, split up to 3 times (instead of 4), and all games H17 unless your playing $25 or up tables (and still even some $25 tables are H17 (Caesars)).
I played 14 hours for the 2 days I was down there, winning a total of $4,700, using a 1-20 spread (playing 2 spots) $300 max bet. (Thinking of raising my max bet to $400 next week). Bringing my lifetime counting stats to 140 hours - winning $11,706.
I played rated on all the games I played. I notice that the majority of the casino's there, limit you to playing 1 hand and cap your bets at usually around 10X the table minimum if you choose not to play rated. I guess this is their defense since they are not allowed to ban card counters from their casino per New Jersey State Law.
After taking the advice of other posters here, I have left the game at the end of the shoe after exposing my max bet and did not camp out. There are 11 casino's in AC, so that was fine, since I have 10 other casino's to visit after I leave 1.
I wanted to ask the advice from other counters on the subject of playing rated. I'm a little worried about playing rated, as I already was "flat betted" from my favorite casino here on the East Coast (not a casino in AC). How many hours of play do you think I can keep on playing rated before they start to take notice of my win/loss rate and identify me as an advantage player? It took 80 hours until I was confronted by casino personnel to flat bet me at my favorite casino.
I guess I can play rated until they say anything to me, then I just start playing unrated and have to deal with the crappy playing conditions of playing 1 spot and only spreading 1-10. Which may not even be worth it at the lower level tables. But, then again, this is only some of the AC casino's, not all. Some will let you go 12X or 15X the table min at 1 spot playing unrated.
Maybe some counters on this forum who frequently plays in Atlantic City, can give some insight? Thanks.
The place with the best rules is the Trop. 6d-S17. Avoid Tom the pit boss(moustache, short hair, white, is just seemingly always there from early evening to deep into the late night). He can count and he actively looks for them. Borgata and Revel have facial recog technology so avoid them. Penetration is mediocre everywhere. Resorts has a 10 min 8d-S17 game but they're pretty quick to make it a no MS game if you Wong out too often and piss off the other players. Ballys has 50 min blackjack that have the same rules as Trop(btw, about Trop again only play the red felt tables) but it's generally empty with pit bosses watching your every move. That's about it.
Quote: stabworldKewlj - I listened to the advice you gave about not buying in big when sitting down at the table. The problem I have with that, is I personally use my chips to keep the running count. So buying in small, limits the chips I have to do this, it's just impossible for me to keep the running count without at least 20 chips in front of me. So, what I did, is found a happy medium, instead of buying in for $1,000 at a $10 table, Ive been buying in for $300. I know its still pretty high for your standards, but it allows me to have enough red chips on the table to keep my running count, and a few greens, when i'm betting bigger.
Some players use a single chip rotated to clock positions. The tip of the arrow on a Foxwoods chip works. Using chips in any way is asking for trouble and it won't take the pit or surveillance long to figure it out. Don't do it. Some use their feet by pointing the toes to clock positions. No, you don't have to break your ankle when the count is plus 10. Your max bet is already out well before that.
I've never used any of these methods. I learned to keep the count in my head and it's as natural to me as breathing. I've used Hi-Opt II, Hi-Lo and Zen and never had a problem. If you can't keep the count in your head you need more practice. Don't worry. It will come.
Quote: stabworldKewlj - I listened to the advice you gave about not buying in big when sitting down at the table. The problem I have with that, is I personally use my chips to keep the running count.
To be very blunt and honest with you stab it looks like you've sincerely given good effort towards counting full time, but honestly I don't think you're ready. When you've practiced as much as a lot of us have, you should be able to do calculus out loud while keeping a perfect count. Using your chips is a 100% greenhorn move and generally a dead giveaway to casino's. IMO playing without knowing at least the common deviations is also a very big red flag (from a counters perspective). If this is a part time adventure for you I would HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend you practice a lot more before continuing play. There's software to help you count, running decks down, playing practice shoes at home (God I've done this for thousands of hours), etc. I'd imagine especially with your good variance you've experienced that this won't stop you, which is fine I guess, but either way you need to admit that you need to work on your counting and put the extra time/effort in until you can carry a conversation with a pit boss and just blink at the table with the current count/RC/TC. I can't believe you've only been flat bet at one casino.
To that extent. If you want the comps, always try to play rated. However this is a game that eventually will lead to your rated demise, unless you take extra steps to keep under the radar. If you're playing rated I'd suggest playing with camouflage, and I absolutely hope you're rat holing. I only count part time, but my local casino had me down as a loser last year (you can get your win/loss statements from them each year for your rated play), where as I know from my records I was up ~1,000 units. Granted I only played rated about 60-70% of the time given I don't have a lot of other close options, but you can tell what a huge difference this will make the next time I walk in to play.
Given that you have 11 casino's (with hopefully equal playing conditions) as long as you use some camo, rotate casino's regularly (like every trip just plop down one on the list), learn what pit bosses don't notice you and which do, use rat holing and other techniques, you should be fine to play rated and play for a while. You can especially use your poker skills here (as I came from a poker background as well) to tell which places/bosses are nervous about your play. If you get that sense try a different shift and/or the better option is to avoid that casino for a while (which shouldn't be too hard to do with your list).
Edit: Also, since it's given that you don't even have one system 'mastered' by any means. I would also recommend you do not look in to other counting systems at this time. This will only confuse you and lead to more playing/counting mistakes.
Congrats on the nice start to your career, and I hope variance continues going your way as you fine tune your game!
Quote: Romes....
This is a great post.
To the OP: Your results are way above what your expectation would be even if you were playing perfectly. So, definitely, enjoy the results, but there are a couple of traps that you need to avoid:
1. Don't assume that the money will keep flowing in at this rate. You could go years without seeing another run like this. It can be easy to fall into the trap of overbetting your bankroll, and that's how people go broke.
2. Don't assume that you don't still have a lot to learn, just because you are winning. Learning to count without any aids is your next step, and it is important. It's something that will come with practice, so keep working on it.
Quote: 1BBRomes, you ratholed over 1000 units in a year playing part time? Did you ever come close to getting caught?
Well remember I was only playing rated 60-70% of the time. When I was unrated I didn't rat hole because there was no point if they weren't tracking my play, and heck I've even got the magical buffet comp with no players card... This kind of encouraged me not to when I'm playing unrated. But yes, there was a couple times I got funny looks from the dealer/PB when I cashed out and they clearly thought I had a lot more chips, etc. I was probably made once or twice, but they never said anything to me. My excuse if anyone ever does is just like most people do in roulette. "I put the bigger chips in my pocket when I win them so I always leave the table a winner!!" =p
