Brand New Counter - $40,000 bankroll - What should be my bet spread and at what table minimum?
How did you design that betting ramp?
Quote: geoffA true count of twenty has such a small chance of happening that there is no reason to plan for it. Assuming you are counting correctly, which is doubtful given you've hit true counts of 10, then yes you are betting to conservatively. The point of ramping your bet is to disguise what you are doing as just increasing your bet like a normal gambler would. If we could get away with it we would bet table minimum and at TC 1 bet our max bet. Since this isn't really practical you generally want to have your max bet out at TC 4.
The point of ramping is to optimize bankroll growth. The point of camouflage is to disguise what you're doing. If you bet the max at plus 1, you would be flat betting your advantage. This is not optimal, though it has distinct benefits from Kelly. Standard betting ramps are approximately optimal, but not precisely. The point is partially camouflage, so it looks more natural, and partially for ease of use. The type of ramp he is using is conservative, non-standard, and the type I favor. This type of betting ramp will yield almost the same exact results as an optimal ramp that typically maxes out in the +4 neighborhood (acts like a standard ramp), although tends to attract more attention due to an infrequent series of large bets (doesn't look like a standard ramp). I favor this type of ramp because, compared to a standard ramp, you will bet conservative early, and aggressive late, which exploits the floating advantage--or Gwynn's work as referred to by Snyder if that term is controversial. I did not read what his bankroll is, so I won't comment on the wagering amounts listed.
His ramp has a small edge in 3:2 blackjack, all other things held optimal.
Quote: SonuvabishThe type of ramp he is using is conservative, non-standard, and the type I favor. This type of betting ramp will yield almost the same exact results as an optimal ramp that typically maxes out in the +4 neighborhood (acts like a standard ramp), although tends to attract more attention due to an infrequent series of large bets (doesn't look like a standard ramp). I favor this type of ramp because, compared to a standard ramp, you will bet conservative early, and aggressive late, which exploits the floating advantage--or Gwynn's work as referred to by Snyder if that term is controversial.
I would disagree with all of this. In an 8 deck game, with mediocre penetration, TC's of more than +5 are just so rare that it is almost irrelevant. You need to have max bet out by TC +4, (+5 at the latest). So essentially, he is playing an 8 deck game with a bet spread of $10-$50. That's not good. Wonging out at -2/-3 helps, but not enough.
When playing shoe games, I max bet by TC +4. I wong out aggressively at TC -1.5, maybe -2 late in the shoe. AND, I like to have minimum jumps in wager. I like to get from minimum bet to max bet in 4 step. If you have 10 or 12 different betting levels, you are providing an aweful lot of information for someone to look at.
Floating advantage is almost irrelevant. Not even worth thinking about, certainly not worth building your spread and ramp around. That type of thing is what I refer to as "chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars".
Quote: geoffTrue. Ramping with relation to kelly is to optimize your bankroll growth. However I've found that a lot of people are not ramping with this purpose in mind like the OP. Counters with large enough bankrolls do not ramp because of kelly either. They are doing it as camouflage. That being said I just ran a sim with this type of a betting spread used. With Liberal strip rules and sweet 16/fab 4 indexes a person could expect to make $18.90 an hour with an optimal spread. With a custom spread like this the win/hour becomes $5.25. That is just far too much to give up for whatever the reason is.
I don't think that is correct. I just did a set of sims. The most likely scenerio appears to the be a slight decrease in hourly, with a corresponding decrease in ROR and increase in SCORE. You can't assume he has a 10-200 spread when comparing it to optimal. If doing that, you are assuming he is using a standard ramp. He is not.
Quote: kewljI would disagree with all of this. In an 8 deck game, with mediocre penetration, TC's of more than +5 are just so rare that it is almost irrelevant. You need to have max bet out by TC +4, (+5 at the latest). So essentially, he is playing an 8 deck game with a bet spread of $10-$50. That's not good. Wonging out at -2/-3 helps, but not enough.
When playing shoe games, I max bet by TC +4. I wong out aggressively at TC -1.5, maybe -2 late in the shoe. AND, I like to have minimum jumps in wager. I like to get from minimum bet to max bet in 4 step. If you have 10 or 12 different betting levels, you are providing an aweful lot of information for someone to look at.
Floating advantage is almost irrelevant. Not even worth thinking about, certainly not worth building your spread and ramp around. That type of thing is what I refer to as "chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars".
So I basically should be trying to get out my max bet of $200 once the count reaches +4. What would be the best ramp to achieve this while still camouflaging my play? I'm thinking:
0 TC - bet $10
+1 TC - bet between $20 and $50
+2 TC - bet between $60 and $100
+3 TC - bet between $110 and $150
+4 TC - bet between $160 and $200
+5 TC or more - bet $200
How does this sound?
Quote: SonuvabishI don't think that is correct. This ramp will increase hourly. The SCORE generally stays the same, but could move. ROR goes up. You can't assume he has a 10-200 spread when comparing it to optimal. If doing that, you are assuming he is using a standard ramp. He is not.
I put it in exactly as he described with a $10 base and an increase of $10 with each increase in the TC up to TC 20. I compared this to a 1-10 spread. The problem is you are not really having much money on the table when you have the advantage.
Quote: geoffI put it in exactly as he described with a $10 base and an increase of $10 with each increase in the TC up to TC 20. I compared this to a 1-10 spread. The problem is you are not really having much money on the table when you have the advantage.
Edited...I made that statement from memory. He wouldn't have a 1-10 spread. How often is he going to bet 10 units? It's more like 1-5 or 1-6.
Quote: geoffTrue. Ramping with relation to kelly is to optimize your bankroll growth. However I've found that a lot of people are not ramping with this purpose in mind like the OP. Counters with large enough bankrolls do not ramp because of kelly either. They are doing it as camouflage. That being said I just ran a sim with this type of a betting spread used. With Liberal strip rules and sweet 16/fab 4 indexes a person could expect to make $18.90 an hour with an optimal spread. With a custom spread like this the win/hour becomes $5.25. That is just far too much to give up for whatever the reason is.
Geoff - the $18.90 an hour with an optimal spread - what spread are you referring to?
- the $5.25 an hour with a custom spread - what spread are you referring to?
Quote: kewljI would disagree with all of this. In an 8 deck game, with mediocre penetration, TC's of more than +5 are just so rare that it is almost irrelevant. You need to have max bet out by TC +4, (+5 at the latest). So essentially, he is playing an 8 deck game with a bet spread of $10-$50. That's not good. Wonging out at -2/-3 helps, but not enough.
When playing shoe games, I max bet by TC +4. I wong out aggressively at TC -1.5, maybe -2 late in the shoe. AND, I like to have minimum jumps in wager. I like to get from minimum bet to max bet in 4 step. If you have 10 or 12 different betting levels, you are providing an aweful lot of information for someone to look at.
Floating advantage is almost irrelevant. Not even worth thinking about, certainly not worth building your spread and ramp around. That type of thing is what I refer to as "chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars".
Have you read Snyder's article? This is what I think of as the floating advantage, but it is never described as such. Worth a look if you have not.
I would first suggest you don't play an 8-deck game with poor penetration. Second, I would say simply make your betting unit higher, which seemingly would resolve all disagreement you have with the ramp. I have never agreed with the concept of betting the same at +4 as you would at +10. If you think I am saying more than that, you are reading too much into it.
Additionally, I made the leap of faith and assumed that the OP has a small bankroll and cannot bet a fortune every time the count is favorable, otherwise he would probably not be asking these questions. We will find out shortly.
Quote: stabworldSo I basically should be trying to get out my max bet of $200 once the count reaches +4. What would be the best ramp to achieve this while still camouflaging my play? I'm thinking:
0 TC - bet $10
+1 TC - bet between $20 and $50
+2 TC - bet between $60 and $100
+3 TC - bet between $110 and $150
+4 TC - bet between $160 and $200
+5 TC or more - bet $200
How does this sound?
Can somebody give me advice on what my trip or session bankroll bankroll should be using the above spread with a $200 max bet? How many max bets should I have on me while playing 1 session?
Quote: stabworldCan somebody give me advice on what my trip or session bankroll bankroll should be using the above spread with a $200 max bet? How many max bets should I have on me while playing 1 session?
Like $40,000 I'd guess to sustain that for multiple trips. Probably too much if you have to ask.
Quote: SonuvabishEdited...I made that statement from memory. He wouldn't have a 1-10 spread. How often is he going to bet 10 units? It's more like 1-5 or 1-6.
Sonuvabish - you are correct . I only once or twice reached a 1-10 spread. mostly my sessions were 1-4, 1-5 , 1-7 ....as the count never got to high..
Quote: stabworldGeoff - the $18.90 an hour with an optimal spread - what spread are you referring to?
- the $5.25 an hour with a custom spread - what spread are you referring to?
Optimal TC0- $10 TC1-$25 TC2-$50 TC>=3$100
Custom TC1- $10 TC2- $20 TC3-$30 .... TC20-$200
You referenced a 1-10 spread in your original post so I figured I would go with that.
Quote: SonuvabishLike $40,000 I'd guess to sustain that for multiple trips. Probably too much if you have to ask.
I'm obviously not going to take 40K with me on a casino visit. I have been taking 10 max bets with me and so far never had to dip into my pocket for more than 3 max bets. Also, what is a good amount of $$ to keep on the table? I have been buying in for 3 max bets of $100. leaving 7 max bets in my pocket.
Quote: stabworldSonuvabish - you are correct . I only once or twice reached a 1-10 spread. mostly my sessions were 1-4, 1-5 , 1-7 ....as the count never got to high..
Yes. To sim your ramp and compare it to optimal, it has to converted to standard thru approximation. Otherwise the result is nonsense. A point brought up by another poster is that your bets may be too low, but what he is not addressing, and should be, is whether or not your bankroll can handle it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ramp. As I said before, I have no idea whether your bet sizes are appropriate or not.
Quote: geoffOptimal TC0- $10 TC1-$25 TC2-$50 TC>=3$100
Custom TC1- $10 TC2- $20 TC3-$30 .... TC20-$200
You referenced a 1-10 spread in your original post so I figured I would go with that.
Got it. Thanks..
Quote: stabworldI'm obviously not going to take 40K with me on a casino visit. I have been taking 10 max bets with me and so far never had to dip into my pocket for more than 3 max bets. Also, what is a good amount of $$ to keep on the table? I have been buying in for 3 max bets of $100. leaving 7 max bets in my pocket.
If you're bringing $1000 with you, you certainly don't want to be betting $200 at +4. If I were you, I would use the ramp you constructed. If you feel safe now, or not yet but win some money later, up it to 15 in positive counts. As I said, I favor these ramps. If you go with a standard ramp like most people like, you have to figure out something smaller to bet at max.
Quote: stabworldSo I basically should be trying to get out my max bet of $200 once the count reaches +4. What would be the best ramp to achieve this while still camouflaging my play? I'm thinking:
0 TC - bet $10
+1 TC - bet between $20 and $50
+2 TC - bet between $60 and $100
+3 TC - bet between $110 and $150
+4 TC - bet between $160 and $200
+5 TC or more - bet $200
How does this sound?
Here's the thing. $10 is the table minimum and as such it is your minimum wager (some people will tell you that 0 is your minimum wager and there is some truth to that, but forget that for now). $10 is your minimum wager. It is NOT your unit. And it is NOT the amount that you should increase by when you start increasing. Doing that will take too long to get decent money on the table and too many jumps just makes it too easy to see what is going on.
So what should your ramp and spread be? We can't answer that without knowing your bankroll. Your spread starts off backwards from your max bet, which is determined by your bankroll and the RoR that you desire or are comfortable playing.
Assuming you had the bankroll to support this spread and support a $200 max bet,
I would max bet $200 @ TC +5
bet $150 @ TC +4
Bet $100 @ TC +3
bet $50 @ TC +2
Bet $10 @ TC +1 and lower.
Now with this spread $50 is your unit wager. You are betting $50 at roughly each .5% advantage. (unit is amount wagered per increment of advantage, in this case per .5% of advantage) Minimum wager is $10, which is the lowest amount you can wager and should be a fraction of your unit. Bet spread is 1-20 which is just minimum wager to max wager, has nothing to do with unit.
Now with this spread, I probably would insert a $25 wager just to smooth out the ramp and not have such a big jump from $10 to $50. Depending on exact rules the game becomes break even somewhere just above TC +1. Somewhere in that neighborhood +1, +1.5, I would bet $25, just so it's not such a noticeable jump to $50.
Edit: as I wrote this you mentioned $1000 trip bankroll. These numbers are not representative of a $1000 trip BR. But I will still leave the post as there are some ideas there you might want to think about.
Quote: stabworldI'm obviously not going to take 40K with me on a casino visit. I have been taking 10 max bets with me and so far never had to dip into my pocket for more than 3 max bets. Also, what is a good amount of $$ to keep on the table? I have been buying in for 3 max bets of $100. leaving 7 max bets in my pocket.
Actually, I think that 10 max bets is reasonable. I usually have on me, or have easy access to, 10-15.
It can go fast, though. There is nothing like losing 5-6 max bets in a row to really make you wonder...
Quote: kewljHere's the thing. $10 is the table minimum and as such it is your minimum wager (some people will tell you that 0 is your minimum wager and there is some truth to that, but forget that for now). $10 is your minimum wager. It is NOT your unit. And it is NOT the amount that you should increase by when you start increasing. Doing that will take too long to get decent money on the table and too many jumps just makes it too easy to see what is going on.
So what should your ramp and spread be? We can't answer that without knowing your bankroll. Your spread starts off backwards from your max bet, which is determined by your bankroll and the RoR that you desire or are comfortable playing.
Assuming you had the bankroll to support this spread and support a $200 max bet,
I would max bet $200 @ TC +5
bet $150 @ TC +4
Bet $100 @ TC +3
bet $50 @ TC +2
Bet $10 @ TC +1 and lower.
Now with this spread $50 is your unit wager. You are betting $50 at roughly each .5% advantage. (unit is amount wagered per increment of advantage, in this case per .5% of advantage) Minimum wager is $10, which is the lowest amount you can wager and should be a fraction of your unit. Bet spread is 1-20 which is just minimum wager to max wager, has nothing to do with unit.
Now with this spread, I probably would insert a $25 wager just to smooth out the ramp and not have such a big jump from $10 to $50. Depending on exact rules the game becomes break even somewhere just above TC +1. Somewhere in that neighborhood +1, +1.5 I would bet $25, just so it's not such a noticeable jump to $50.
You are assuming he is misusing a standard ramp. He isn't. He is betting proportional to his advantage. His unit is $10, his max bet is infinity. Ramping isn't used to avoid detection at red-chip levels. He could go to some casinos with a shirt and flag that both say I'm a counter, and they'd pay him no mind because his bets won't hit $100.
If you want to teach him more about bet spreads, and even persuade him your way is better, fine. But all evidence suggests his spread was 1-6, and that he cannot bet $200 at max on his bankroll. He was NEVER going to get a count of +20. Are you trying to bankrupt him?
Quote: SonuvabishYou are assuming he is misusing a standard ramp. He isn't. He is betting proportional to his advantage. His unit is $10, his max bet is infinity. Ramping isn't used to avoid detection at red-chip levels. He could go to some casinos with a shirt and flag that both say I'm a counter, and they'd pay him no mind because his bets won't hit $100.
If you want to teach him more about bet spreads, and even persuade him your way is better, fine. But all evidence suggests his spread was 1-6, and that he cannot bet $200 at max on his bankroll. Are you trying to bankrupt him?
Why can't he bet $200 on his bankroll? $40k is plenty for a $200 max bet.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhy can't he bet $200 on his bankroll? $40k is plenty for a $200 max bet.
He doesnt have 40K. That was my guess as to what he'd need to sustain that level of betting. He has $1,000 session BR. He can maybe do $100, but I wouldn't advise that high either.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceActually, I think that 10 max bets is reasonable. I usually have on me, or have easy access to, 10-15.
It can go fast, though. There is nothing like losing 5-6 max bets in a row to really make you wonder...
10 is just a little lite for me. I like to start my day with about 20 and usually have a way to replenish (higher limit ATM or bank branch). I won't start a session with less than 12. Nothing worse than not being able to complete doubles and splits in favorable max bet situations. Well, maybe there ARE worse things in life <-lol, but not being able to split and double your max bet against dealer break card is throwing away EV and opportunity.
Quote: kewlj10 is just a little lite for me. I like to start my day with about 20 and usually have a way to replenish (higher limit ATM or bank branch). I won't start a session with less than 12. Nothing worse than not being able to complete doubles and splits in favorable max bet situations. Well, maybe there ARE worse things in life <-lol, but not being able to split and double your max bet against dealer break card is throwing away EV and opportunity.
I'm not going to make the bet if I can't finish the hand, obviously.
I will also not start a shoe if I think there's a decent chance I'll have to leave at a high count because I can't make the bets I want to make.
Which bank are you with that allows you to withdraw real amounts of money from an ATM? I can't get > $1000 no matter what (I'm with Wells Fargo).
Quote: SonuvabishYou are assuming he is misusing a standard ramp. He isn't. He is betting proportional to his advantage. His unit is $10, his max bet is infinity. Ramping isn't used to avoid detection at red-chip levels. He could go to some casinos with a shirt and flag that both say I'm a counter, and they'd pay him no mind because his bets won't hit $100.
If you want to teach him more about bet spreads, and even persuade him your way is better, fine. But all evidence suggests his spread was 1-6, and that he cannot bet $200 at max on his bankroll. He was NEVER going to get a count of +20. Are you trying to bankrupt him?
No I am not trying to bankrupt him. If you read the 'edit' portion of my post, you would know that the spread I suggested was an example, NOT knowing his BR. I specifically said, "IF YOUR BANKROLL CAN SUPPORT THIS".
The rest of your post is non-sense.
I play about 80,000 rounds of blackjack per year and am in my 11th year of supporting myself from blackjack play. I may not be the smartest guy on the board, but I know a little bit about spreads, ramps, RoR. I also am pretty darn good at creating spreads and ramps that fall within the casinos comfort and tolerance levels.
Minimum bet is NOT unit! It should be a fraction of your unit. If you learn nothing else today, learn that!
For what it is worth: My definition of unit, amount placed per increment of advantage and the idea that minimum wager is a fraction of the unit is something that I learned from bigplayer and Richard Munchkin. Bigplayer is a regular poster on a number of the BJ sites and was a member of several pretty well known teams. Munchkin, I am sure you know of. I am sure neither of these guys originated this idea, but they are who I learned it from, so in discussions, I often credit them and refer to this definition of unit as the bigplayer/munchkin definition.
Quote: kewljHere's the thing. $10 is the table minimum and as such it is your minimum wager (some people will tell you that 0 is your minimum wager and there is some truth to that, but forget that for now). $10 is your minimum wager. It is NOT your unit. And it is NOT the amount that you should increase by when you start increasing. Doing that will take too long to get decent money on the table and too many jumps just makes it too easy to see what is going on.
So what should your ramp and spread be? We can't answer that without knowing your bankroll. Your spread starts off backwards from your max bet, which is determined by your bankroll and the RoR that you desire or are comfortable playing.
Assuming you had the bankroll to support this spread and support a $200 max bet,
I would max bet $200 @ TC +5
bet $150 @ TC +4
Bet $100 @ TC +3
bet $50 @ TC +2
Bet $10 @ TC +1 and lower.
Now with this spread $50 is your unit wager. You are betting $50 at roughly each .5% advantage. (unit is amount wagered per increment of advantage, in this case per .5% of advantage) Minimum wager is $10, which is the lowest amount you can wager and should be a fraction of your unit. Bet spread is 1-20 which is just minimum wager to max wager, has nothing to do with unit.
Now with this spread, I probably would insert a $25 wager just to smooth out the ramp and not have such a big jump from $10 to $50. Depending on exact rules the game becomes break even somewhere just above TC +1. Somewhere in that neighborhood +1, +1.5, I would bet $25, just so it's not such a noticeable jump to $50.
Edit: as I wrote this you mentioned $1000 trip bankroll. These numbers are not representative of a $1000 trip BR. But I will still leave the post as there are some ideas there you might want to think about.
Kewlj - Thank you for that clarification and post. It has open my eyes to some other strategies. I will consider using your above mentioned betting ramp. I'm thinking of probably bringing $2,000 with me for a session bankroll using the above mentioned betting ramp.
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
Which bank are you with that allows you to withdraw real amounts of money from an ATM? I can't get > $1000 no matter what (I'm with Wells Fargo).
Yeah, I know someone else with Wells Fargo and they are difficult on this issue. BofA will up your ATM limit, but you have to talk to the manager and be pretty insistent (even threaten to leave). Nevada State Bank is the bank that I use that is quite willing to work with you, if you explain your needs.
Quote: stabworldKewlj - Thank you for that clarification and post. It has open my eyes to some other strategies. I will consider using your above mentioned betting ramp. I'm thinking of probably bringing $2,000 with me for a session bankroll using the above mentioned betting ramp.
Basically, the whole thing is, that with an 8 deck game, and I used to play them a lot in AC back in the day, you just aren't going to get many counts above +3 or +4. When you get one, you need to be ready to pounce. Those few and far between opportunities are why you play through all the neutral, negative and even slightly positive counts.
Quote: kewljYeah, I know someone else with Wells Fargo and they are difficult on this issue. BofA will up your ATM limit, but you have to talk to the manager and be pretty insistent (even threaten to leave). Nevada State Bank is the bank that I use that is quite willing to work with you, if you explain your needs.
Have you considered applying for a line of credit at the casino you frequent the most? It takes 5 minutes. All they do is check what you have in your checking account to make sure you can pay back what they are lending you- I believe they check your credit score also- (not the best inquiry to have on your credit report ABC casino inquiry). Then they grant you a line of credit that is always available to you 24 hours a day. They usually give you I believe 60 days to pay it back interest free. I have never done this - I am going off of what somebody I play poker with has told me - he has done it himself.
Quote: stabworldHave you considered applying for a line of credit at the casino you frequent the most? It takes 5 minutes. All they do is check what you have in your checking account to make sure you can pay back what they are lending you- I believe they check your credit score also- (not the best inquiry to have on your credit report ABC casino inquiry). Then they grant you a line of credit that is always available to you 24 hours a day. They usually give you I believe 60 days to pay it back interest free. I have never done this - I am going off of what somebody I play poker with has told me - he has done it himself.
kewlj likes to play anonymously
0 TC - bet $10
+1 TC - bet between $20 and $50
+2 TC - bet between $60 and $100
+3 TC - bet between $110 and $150
+4 TC - bet between $160 and $200
+5 TC or more - bet $200
Quote: BuzzardDo you use phases of the moon or biorhythms to decide whether to bet 20 or 50 at +1 ?
Actually, I am a big proponent of having a range of bets for each count (or range of counts). The more random your betting looks, the better. It costs you almost nothing.
Quote: kewljNo I am not trying to bankrupt him. If you read the 'edit' portion of my post, you would know that the spread I suggested was an example, NOT knowing his BR. I specifically said, "IF YOUR BANKROLL CAN SUPPORT THIS".
The rest of your post is non-sense.
I play about 80,000 rounds of blackjack per year and am in my 11th year of supporting myself from blackjack play. I may not be the smartest guy on the board, but I know a little bit about spreads, ramps, RoR. I also am pretty darn good at creating spreads and ramps that fall within the casinos comfort and tolerance levels.
Minimum bet is NOT unit! It should be a fraction of your unit. If you learn nothing else today, learn that!
For what it is worth: My definition of unit, amount placed per increment of advantage and the idea that minimum wager is a fraction of the unit is something that I learned from bigplayer and Richard Munchkin. Bigplayer is a regular poster on a number of the BJ sites and was a member of several pretty well known teams. Munchkin, I am sure you know of. I am sure neither of these guys originated this idea, but they are who I learned it from, so in discussions, I often credit them and refer to this definition of unit as the bigplayer/munchkin definition.
I apologize for talking down to you Sonuvabish. I am currently in the latter stages of training my second teammate and he sometimes fights me and frustrates me as you just did. But you aren't my student, or teammate and I shouldn't have done that, so feel free to use minimum wager as your unit and spread and ramp any way you like. :-)
Many of the books written in 1980 and 1990, including such book as Wong's Professional Blackjack use minimum wager as the unit and then ramp up by that same amount. But again, the problem is that the game has really changed for the worse since then. In shoe games, you need to ramp quicker than that. Going $10-$20-$30-$40 and so on, is too slow of a ramp for todays games and just looks bad....shows too much info. You might want to look into that to both improve your results and preserve longevity.
Quote: kewljNo I am not trying to bankrupt him. If you read the 'edit' portion of my post, you would know that the spread I suggested was an example, NOT knowing his BR. I specifically said, "IF YOUR BANKROLL CAN SUPPORT THIS".
The rest of your post is non-sense.
I play about 80,000 rounds of blackjack per year and am in my 11th year of supporting myself from blackjack play. I may not be the smartest guy on the board, but I know a little bit about spreads, ramps, RoR. I also am pretty darn good at creating spreads and ramps that fall within the casinos comfort and tolerance levels.
Minimum bet is NOT unit! It should be a fraction of your unit. If you learn nothing else today, learn that!
For what it is worth: My definition of unit, amount placed per increment of advantage and the idea that minimum wager is a fraction of the unit is something that I learned from bigplayer and Richard Munchkin. Bigplayer is a regular poster on a number of the BJ sites and was a member of several pretty well known teams. Munchkin, I am sure you know of. I am sure neither of these guys originated this idea, but they are who I learned it from, so in discussions, I often credit them and refer to this definition of unit as the bigplayer/munchkin definition.
I read your edit. Although it was clear such bets could not be supported, you suggested it anyway, with qualification. Now it appears he's going to try it.
I don't care who you learned stuff from...I'm not impressed you read something from an anonymous poster. The fact that his ramp consists of upping his bet by a unit equivalent to the table minimum may suggest he personally believes a unit is equal to the minimum, but not necessarily. I find these nuances inconsequential when guiding newbies; they need not know technical details, theories, etc. In fact, they should not know because it won't help but it may confuse. And it absolutely does not make the ramp itself faulty, when the wage amounts are correct. I believe our definitions of units are the exact same, from what I can tell from your post. I arrived at my conclusion as to what a unit iis thru experience, not from learning it by reading about it. I realize the standard ramp is preferred, hence the term standard. But the ramp he constructed, possibly thru sheer inexperience or lack of understanding, reduces ROR and gives up minimal dollars. Calling this nonsense reflects that you are in fact, as you stated, not the smartest on this board. Obviously, failure to properly size your bets in ANY ramp will lead to mediocre results. Under his ramp, his spread is equivalent to about 1-6. Very conservative. You are telling him to spread 1-20, 10-200, with now a $2000 session BR; basically the minimum amount session BR required for that spread; very aggressive. I hope the newbie understands what this all means, and that 10-200 is not sustainable on a 2000 total bankroll. And let's not pretend 40K is the bankroll we are working with; as far as I'm concerned, his session BR is his entire BR, and his earlier constructed ramp is already overbetting. Kewl, if you've read any of this thread, your suggestions are completely reckless. I'll ask again. Are you trying to bankrupt him?
Stab--I may be biased in favor of a conservative approach because of your situation and inexperience. However, there is nothing wrong with either choice in ramps. And betting $200 is too much. Those are closer to fact than opinion.
Quote: geoffThe OP has said he wanted to use a 1-20 spread and asked how to do so which is what Kewlj has answered. Hit current spread is probably equivalent to a 1-6 and if that's what he wants to do that is fine. That's not what we're talking about though.
Well yes, under that specific question only, Kewl is correct. Betting 200 at +20 is not the proper way to achieve a 1-20 spread; or from my point of view, it is not a 1-20 a spread. But that's not my issue with his arguments. He could bet 35 per true count, betting only $175 at plus 5. Kewl seems to think you can only bet $50 at plus 5 with the ramp. Using the same type of ramp he already constructed, it would be be similar to the ramp Kewl advocates. Also, the OP should be as conservative as possible if you have read the thread, and OPs ramp lowers ROR. If a standard ramp is used, advise against 1-20, or at least raise it up beyond the standard count, don't you think?
Quote: SonuvabishYou are telling him to spread 1-20, 10-200, with now a $2000 session BR; basically the minimum amount session BR required for that spread; very aggressive. I hope the newbie understands what this all means, and that 10-200 is not sustainable on a 2000 total bankroll.
I did no such thing! I suggested a spread and ramp based on what he said at the time, a $40K BR. It wasn't until after my post, or possibly while I was posting that there was any mention of a $2000 'trip' bankroll. Upon learning this new info, I made an edit to my post.
This has been explained to you and yet you seem determined to continue with this lie, for the third time now.
As for bigplayer and Munchkin being anonymous posters, well yes I suppose to some extent they are as all of us are. Neither uses their real name, if that is your point. But neither really hides who they are. In the blackjack community it is well known who these highly regarded players are. I did not mention them just to drop names. My point was that almost every successful BJ team and most professional players have the same definition of unit and it is NOT minimum wager. Minimum wager is minimum wager and it should be a fraction of your unit.
Quote: kewljI did no such thing! I suggested a spread and ramp based on what he said at the time, a $40K BR. It wasn't until after my post, or possibly while I was posting that there was any mention of a $2000 'trip' bankroll. Upon learning this new info, I made an edit to my post.
This has been explained to you and yet you seem determined to continue with this lie, for the third time now.
As for bigplayer and Munchkin being anonymous posters, well yes I suppose to some extent they are as all of us are. Neither uses their real name, if that is your point. But neither really hides who they are. In the blackjack community it is well known who these highly regarded players are. I did not mention them just to drop names. My point was that almost every successful BJ team and most professional players have the same definition of unit and it is NOT minimum wager. Minimum wager is minimum wager and it should be a fraction of your unit.
Lies? What am I lying about on a public board where everyone can read every post? If there is an error, why don't you clearly point it out rather than tread near libel and give me cause to complain about personal insults? $200 max is based on $40k? First you said you didn't know his bankroll. Then you do? He said he had $1K session BR (actually he said 700 plus 300). Then he changed it to 2K. You ignored the 1K and edited your 40K reasoning to the 2K BR? Yeah, I don't really get it. That is the best sense I can make of it, therefore I am lying. This logic exemplifies your posts in this thread. I assumed you ignored all facts indicating a small or even non-existent BR in your first post with qualification. I thought your edit referred to the qualification. If you read the 40K, you'd know it was a phantom BR anyway, and anything based on that is equally phantom.
Like I said, I don't care which anonymous posters you highly regard. Maybe they are your close personal brick-and-morter (offline) friends, but if not, seems odd to put them on a pedestal. Whatever you are talking about, is exactly why I don't want to belong in such a community. I'll stay here in gen pop. After telling me everything I wrote was nonsense, it seemed like your point was to explain to me what a unit is. Still kind of does because it is rather tangential; the OP needs instructions, not explanations and you recommended against his custom ramp. Regardless, maybe you thought the OP could benefit from the info.
Quote: SonuvabishLies? What am I lying about on a public board where everyone can read every post? If there is an error, why don't you clearly point it out rather than tread near libel and give me cause to complain about personal insults? $200 max is based on $40k? First you said you didn't know his bankroll. Then you do? He said he had $1K session BR (actually he said 700 plus 300). Then he changed it to 2K. You ignored the 1K and edited your 40K reasoning to the 2K BR? Yeah, I don't really get it. That is the best sense I can make of it, therefore I am lying. This logic exemplifies your posts in this thread. I assumed you ignored all facts indicating a small or even non-existent BR in your first post with qualification. I thought your edit referred to the qualification. If you read the 40K, you'd know it was a phantom BR anyway, and anything based on that is equally phantom.
Like I said, I don't care which anonymous posters you highly regard. Maybe they are your close personal brick-and-morter (offline) friends, but if not, seems odd to put them on a pedestal. Whatever you are talking about, is exactly why I don't want to belong in such a community. I'll stay here in gen pop. After telling me everything I wrote was nonsense, it seemed like your point was to explain to me what a unit is. Still kind of does because it is rather tangential; the OP needs instructions, not explanations and you recommended against his custom ramp. Regardless, maybe you thought the OP could benefit from the info.
kewlj and sonuvabish - you both give some great advice and I appreciate it. no need to go back and forth at each other. I understand what kewlj is trying to explain in regards to the betting ramp. Regardless of whether the term "unit bet" is the 'minimum bet" or the "incremental bet" I do like his betting ramp and had used it in my last session today. I am starting to open my eyes of the overall purpose is to get as much money on the table when the count is in the players advantage and the incremetal $10 raise of bets according to the count was way too conservative and I am never going to reach the desired spread of 1-20. I like the new betting ramp strategy suggested by kewlj and am going to use it for now.
sonuvabish - I am a little confused on why you continue to suggest that my bankroll is 1k or 2k. that is just the trip bankroll to cover my max bets. I have 20k liquid cash available in a checking account and 20k liquid cash available to withdraw from a ROTH IRA without penalty. I don't want to get back into the whole discussion that the 40k is not really a bankroll because half of it is borrowed money and the other half is retirement money. I still disagree - but am not going to push the issue because I respect the opinions of the experience in blackjack that you all have. whether its a true 40k bankroll or not - I will still play as if I had a 40k bankroll and looking for advice on such.
Quote: stabworldkewlj and sonuvabish - you both give some great advice and I appreciate it. no need to go back and forth at each other. I understand what kewlj is trying to explain in regards to the betting ramp. Regardless of whether the term "unit bet" is the 'minimum bet" or the "incremental bet" I do like his betting ramp and had used it in my last session today. I am starting to open my eyes of the overall purpose is to get as much money on the table when the count is in the players advantage and the incremetal $10 raise of bets according to the count was way too conservative and I am never going to reach the desired spread of 1-20. I like the new betting ramp strategy suggested by kewlj and am going to use it for now.
sonuvabish - I am a little confused on why you continue to suggest that my bankroll is 1k or 2k. that is just the trip bankroll to cover my max bets. I have 20k liquid cash available in a checking account and 20k liquid cash available to withdraw from a ROTH IRA without penalty. I don't want to get back into the whole discussion that the 40k is not really a bankroll because half of it is borrowed money and the other half is retirement money. I still disagree - but am not going to push the issue because I respect the opinions of the experience in blackjack that you all have. whether its a true 40k bankroll or not - I will still play as if I had a 40k bankroll and looking for advice on such.
as far as my trip bankroll I was formally using 1k with my consertvative bet spread of 1-6 (or what I thought to be a 1-20 spread which was pointed out it wasnt cause the count never gets that high). I think I am going to bring eighter 3k or 4k with me now with the new betting spread of 1-20 incrementally raising bets at $50 with every +1TC - maxing at $200.
Using the new spread I did notice the dealer taking more notice with the dramatic increase of the bet from $10 to $50 to $100 in just a few hands. I was throwing some $25 bets out there at +1.5TC as not to go directly from $10 to $50 as somebody suggested to me earlier.
Quote: BuzzardWhatever you say Mommy.
Buzz, you can chill, too. They both had a point, and were near-stuck on backing down. Let them blame me for cutting it off without mocking me, please.
Quote: beachbumbabsBuzz, you can chill, too. They both had a point, and were near-stuck on backing down. Let them blame me for cutting it off without mocking me, please.
Aw BaBs Don't take it personal. But they are adults, even if acting childish.
Quote: beachbumbabsOK, kewl and Son, both of you please take 3 steps back and breathe deeply. You've had a misunderstanding based on conflicting information posted before your pissing match started. You're both valuable members here. And now you're both starting to throw personal accusations. Be cool and move on. Thanks.
Sorry, Babs. I shouldn't be trying to be Stab's nanny. And thank you for the compliment.
Stab--If you bring more cash with you, 3-4K, it is much more appropriate for a max bet size of $200. Hopefully, that clears up any confusion. Although I let my opinion slip at some point arguing with kewl, I'll point out again that I do not actually know your bankroll. It is not my business at this point, and I apologize for rehashing the old discussion; but at least you know this concern is woven into my reasoning. It is no surprise you prefer a standard ramp; most do. If a standard ramp is easier for you or more likable, it is almost certainly better for you to use.
IBYA--There must be something more to that spread. My intuition tells me that requires a bankroll of several hundred thousand dollars, minimum, to keep ROR at tolerable levels. Perhaps you are wonging excessively/aggressively, or something else pertinent you did not mention. Or maybe I am wrong?
Buzz--You're the only adult here ;)
