Free play doesnt last forever
August 12th, 2022 at 6:45:40 PM
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Quote: VegasriderQuote: AlanMendelsonI've used the Confederate system on doey dont with free play.
I had 10 free black chips at Caesars. My buddy bet the dont and I bet pass for ten rolls.
No 12s thrown and we didnt bother covering it.
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Do they let you put those free chips on the field? The place I play at, I get $500 free chips a month. $125 a week. I usually save ‘‘em until I can put down $300 or $500 on a single roll on the field.. Haven’t gotten any 2 or 12’s yet which pays 2X and 3X but had many wins and just as many losses. But again it wasn’t my money so it was a free roll, doesn’t bother me a bit that I lost the free promo chips.
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They were live chips but my goal was to create cash.
August 13th, 2022 at 10:04:52 AM
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My free play offers include kiosk random picks for free play amount. I tried to time one of them and I was logged out in 15 seconds before picking anything so I had to log back in and try again. I could win anything from $40 (expected minimum) to $1,000 (so unlikely, lol). So it got me thinking about how to bet on Double Double Bonus VP. I could just play 160 hands and then a few until I get to one session point then cash-out. But if I get $60 in free play, I could play quads or bust with one coin. If I get $120 in free play I could play 2 coin quads or bust. If get $250 in free play, make it 4 coin quads or bust. If I get $300 or more in free play, make it 5 coin quads or bust. Or I could just forget about the quads or bust portion and play until I get to one session point.
If I get to $500 I could move to a 25 bet buy-in at the $15 BJ table.
If I get to $500 I could move to a 25 bet buy-in at the $15 BJ table.
August 13th, 2022 at 10:15:00 AM
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I've often wondered if those offers were really random or the amount was determined by your play history?
August 13th, 2022 at 10:21:48 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI've often wondered if those offers were really random or the amount was determined by your play history?
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Both from my experience. It is random but your play history can give you a better chance for a bigger prize.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 13th, 2022 at 11:07:32 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelsonI've often wondered if those offers were really random or the amount was determined by your play history?
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Both from my experience. It is random but your play history can give you a better chance for a bigger prize.
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Random but predetermined.
In essence, what you get is randomly determined but in advance of your arriving at the kiosk.
Some places it's based on prior play, some not.
As someone who uses multiple cards it becomes rather easy to determine.
If I have a kiosk game with three choices and they promise in the range of $40 to $400 based on my pick and I have twenty players cards and 17 get $40, 2 get $60 and one gets $80, it's obvious they predetermined that the vast majority will get only the minimum $40.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 13th, 2022 at 11:57:34 AM
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Quote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelsonI've often wondered if those offers were really random or the amount was determined by your play history?
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Both from my experience. It is random but your play history can give you a better chance for a bigger prize.
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Random but predetermined.
In essence, what you get is randomly determined but in advance of your arriving at the kiosk.
Some places it's based on prior play, some not.
As someone who uses multiple cards it becomes rather easy to determine.
If I have a kiosk game with three choices and they promise in the range of $40 to $400 based on my pick and I have twenty players cards and 17 get $40, 2 get $60 and one gets $80, it's obvious they predetermined that the vast majority will get only the minimum $40.
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The one I wrote was not predetermined. It used your coin in over the "period" to bias your likelyhood of a higher prize.
If you had low coin in your chance of the top prize might be 10,000 to 1 while if you had the highest coin in your chance of the top prize may be 10 to 1. It was not predetermined, it was still random.
I know some of them use Theo win instead of coin in.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 13th, 2022 at 12:07:33 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: darkozQuote: DRichQuote: AlanMendelsonI've often wondered if those offers were really random or the amount was determined by your play history?
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Both from my experience. It is random but your play history can give you a better chance for a bigger prize.
link to original post
Random but predetermined.
In essence, what you get is randomly determined but in advance of your arriving at the kiosk.
Some places it's based on prior play, some not.
As someone who uses multiple cards it becomes rather easy to determine.
If I have a kiosk game with three choices and they promise in the range of $40 to $400 based on my pick and I have twenty players cards and 17 get $40, 2 get $60 and one gets $80, it's obvious they predetermined that the vast majority will get only the minimum $40.
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The one I wrote was not predetermined. It used your coin in over the "period" to bias your likelyhood of a higher prize.
If you had low coin in your chance of the top prize might be 10,000 to 1 while if you had the highest coin in your chance of the top prize may be 10 to 1. It was not predetermined, it was still random.
I know some of them use Theo win instead of coin in.
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Interesting.
I find that likely. Since I multicard by basically repeating like methods of coin-in my results may have been similar due to your description of how it works
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 13th, 2022 at 7:25:51 PM
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I saw a few people claiming their free play at the kiosk today. Some had a $20 minimum, others had a $10 minimum, but the $1,000 maximum was on each of them.
I've gone more than 500 hands without quads on Dbl-Dbl Bonus VP in 3 sessions. But if I can only lose $10-$20 of free play until that 1st session point, I'm eeking a little profit that can be taken away by any other machine in no time flat. I'll have to see how far I can go with this. The first week was absolute Loserville. I've not really played much 25 cent VP until last month. There's no nickel machines around. Dbl-Dbl Bonus VP has progressives on the 25 cent 5 coin quads.
The table games Jackpot broke $100K a few days ago.
I've gone more than 500 hands without quads on Dbl-Dbl Bonus VP in 3 sessions. But if I can only lose $10-$20 of free play until that 1st session point, I'm eeking a little profit that can be taken away by any other machine in no time flat. I'll have to see how far I can go with this. The first week was absolute Loserville. I've not really played much 25 cent VP until last month. There's no nickel machines around. Dbl-Dbl Bonus VP has progressives on the 25 cent 5 coin quads.
The table games Jackpot broke $100K a few days ago.
August 20th, 2022 at 5:40:04 PM
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I missed reporting two of my free play dates.
On date #1 I had $15 total free play. At the first casino my $5 yielded $12.50 thanks to two dealt straights at 8/5 bonus poker. At the second casino my $10 free play yielded $11.
On date #2 I had $15 total free play. At the first casino my $5 yielded $5 at 8/5 bonus poker. At the second casino my $10 free play yielded $25.
My offers at one casino for September have arrived. The $10 offers were increased to $15 six times a month.
Still nothing for table play.
On date #1 I had $15 total free play. At the first casino my $5 yielded $12.50 thanks to two dealt straights at 8/5 bonus poker. At the second casino my $10 free play yielded $11.
On date #2 I had $15 total free play. At the first casino my $5 yielded $5 at 8/5 bonus poker. At the second casino my $10 free play yielded $25.
My offers at one casino for September have arrived. The $10 offers were increased to $15 six times a month.
Still nothing for table play.
August 20th, 2022 at 7:39:51 PM
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I'm playing the home game VP and it says I've played 9,683 hands and lost $948.75 out of $12,103.75 bet (-7.84%) on a 9/6 5-quarter machine (only 5 coins per hand). I'm copying Wiz's strategy for the Double Double Bonus and trying to learn it at home, but I'll still have a cheat sheet with me at the machines, but I likely won't use it there. My latest session was 446 hands and I lost $100 (-17.9%). It keeps refilling me $100 when I lose, and I'm really losing track of my losses here.
I switched to 9/6 JoB and hit quad Aces in 114 hands, so I'm up $16.25 on that game, but I should have hit quad Aces on the Double Double Bonus game for the much higher payout! I got to 371 hands played and quit at "even".
I can only hope I get $40 FP offers for the rest of the year, or higher. But it's too new to know what's going to happen. If I win 5/8ths of my FP buy-in in 160 hands, that's about par for the course. If I get a quads, I might break even or get ahead. I might add $20 to a $40 FP next month and play "Quads Or Bust!" at one coin and see if I can play for 3 hours with 1,800 hands and get 75 session points from $450 coin-in (-8.67%).
I switched to 9/6 JoB and hit quad Aces in 114 hands, so I'm up $16.25 on that game, but I should have hit quad Aces on the Double Double Bonus game for the much higher payout! I got to 371 hands played and quit at "even".
I can only hope I get $40 FP offers for the rest of the year, or higher. But it's too new to know what's going to happen. If I win 5/8ths of my FP buy-in in 160 hands, that's about par for the course. If I get a quads, I might break even or get ahead. I might add $20 to a $40 FP next month and play "Quads Or Bust!" at one coin and see if I can play for 3 hours with 1,800 hands and get 75 session points from $450 coin-in (-8.67%).
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Aug 20, 2022
August 21st, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM
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So if I play for 70+ hours, I'll be due for a Royal Flush. That'd be 10 hours a day for 7 days. Trying to figure out how to get to the $100K JP RF on the $25 machine in no time flat. With $1 million coin-in and an 8% losing streak, I'd be down $80K before hitting it.
August 22nd, 2022 at 1:51:13 AM
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I had to run a quick errand and passed by Suncoast which gives me $5 of free play.
I thought I was due for a strike out... after all my previous $5 sessions got me $12.50 and $9 and $5 and $7.25
I really expected this time a goose egg.
Played 4 hands of 8/5 Bonus on the same machine I've been playing right by the door.
Hit a pair of Jack's then 3 Kings. Cashed out $5 again.
Of course had I put $5 cash in the machine I only would have been even.
I thought I was due for a strike out... after all my previous $5 sessions got me $12.50 and $9 and $5 and $7.25
I really expected this time a goose egg.
Played 4 hands of 8/5 Bonus on the same machine I've been playing right by the door.
Hit a pair of Jack's then 3 Kings. Cashed out $5 again.
Of course had I put $5 cash in the machine I only would have been even.
August 22nd, 2022 at 4:17:33 AM
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I found some multi-hand VP in my casino software. Tried the $5 denom at 50 hands (bet of $1250/hand) and promptly lost $12.5K before I cut back to the 25 cent level.
It has 25 cent, $1, $5, $25, & $100 coin denoms, and 1 hand, 5 hand, 10 hand, 25 hand, & 50 hand selections.
My casino balance was around $300K at the time, but this VP is a total drain. I'd better stick to one hand.
If I get dealt a Royal, I guess I'd win $20 million with 50 hands at the $100 denom.
I won big on tourney games and got up to $1.25 million in a couple hours afterwards.
It has 25 cent, $1, $5, $25, & $100 coin denoms, and 1 hand, 5 hand, 10 hand, 25 hand, & 50 hand selections.
My casino balance was around $300K at the time, but this VP is a total drain. I'd better stick to one hand.
If I get dealt a Royal, I guess I'd win $20 million with 50 hands at the $100 denom.
I won big on tourney games and got up to $1.25 million in a couple hours afterwards.
August 22nd, 2022 at 5:34:36 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangeI found some multi-hand VP in my casino software. Tried the $5 denom at 50 hands (bet of $1250/hand) and promptly lost $12.5K before I cut back to the 25 cent level.
It has 25 cent, $1, $5, $25, & $100 coin denoms, and 1 hand, 5 hand, 10 hand, 25 hand, & 50 hand selections.
My casino balance was around $300K at the time, but this VP is a total drain. I'd better stick to one hand.
If I get dealt a Royal, I guess I'd win $20 million with 50 hands at the $100 denom.
I won big on tourney games and got up to $1.25 million in a couple hours afterwards.
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Chumpchange I've been doing my best trying to figure out why you post about a home game with make believe chips in a thread about casino comps... and I admit I'm coming up empty.
What point are you trying to make?
August 22nd, 2022 at 1:09:21 PM
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If I start getting $1000 free plays 4 times a week, how would I spend them? Obviously playing a quarter VP machine won't be enough because the free play has to be spent within 7 days of being put on my card at the kiosk. The next step would be playing multi-hand VP, but tax forms and low returns might be an obstacle. I never knew I had multi-hand VP on my software and I'm surprised to find it, but I've never really considered playing VP before except with comps.
August 22nd, 2022 at 1:37:00 PM
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Moderator could you separate Chumpchange's posts from this thread?
August 22nd, 2022 at 1:47:31 PM
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Quote: billryanI've twice gotten bottom line 4OAK on JOB 100 Play while using Free Play.
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Here's an example of a winning hand.
August 22nd, 2022 at 2:46:09 PM
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Quote: ChumpChangeIf I start getting $1000 free plays 4 times a week, how would I spend them? Obviously playing a quarter VP machine won't be enough because the free play has to be spent within 7 days of being put on my card at the kiosk…
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Not so obvious to me… $1000 on single-line quarters is only 800 hands. With practice, many could do this within an hour. As you’ve been practicing at home, I’d imagine you’d be surprised at your rate of play. You wouldn’t even have to play it all at once - you could break it up into 2 30-minute or 4 15-minute sessions.
Clearly, the OP is talking about free play. Where else should this discussion be?
It’s a dog eat dog world.
…Or maybe it’s the other way around!
August 22nd, 2022 at 2:55:55 PM
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He's trolling.
August 22nd, 2022 at 2:56:22 PM
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I've been wondering where the quads are so I play at home because I already ran through my free play at the casino without hitting quads, several times. The home game has taught me I may need 3 hours to even get quads once and there may be a couple follow-up quads shortly later. I'm only 10,000 hands of VP in on my other home game, and that's only because I found the button on my Roku to find the statistics. This site can tell me VP is a 98%-99% game all they want, but what is it really in the very short-term of free play play? Is it a 92% game, is it an 82% game, is it a 62% game? I'm really starting to wonder and I'm sure none of the casino denizens here are counting it up at the casino.
I'd prefer one 3-4 hour session over a bunch of little ones at this point, so saving up two $1,000 free plays for one session could last me for that amount of time at 5 coins. I think I'm doing 10 hands a minute or 600 hands an hour. I figure I could get by with $300 of free play and last 3 to 4 hours at 5 coins per hand but I'd be racking up session points when the free play runs out.
Obviously, getting dealt quads for multi-hand VP is way beyond the scope of these 3-4 hours.
I'm losing about 10 cents a hand at 25 cent x 5 coin VP ($1.25 per hand) after 10,000 hands.
I'd prefer one 3-4 hour session over a bunch of little ones at this point, so saving up two $1,000 free plays for one session could last me for that amount of time at 5 coins. I think I'm doing 10 hands a minute or 600 hands an hour. I figure I could get by with $300 of free play and last 3 to 4 hours at 5 coins per hand but I'd be racking up session points when the free play runs out.
Obviously, getting dealt quads for multi-hand VP is way beyond the scope of these 3-4 hours.
I'm losing about 10 cents a hand at 25 cent x 5 coin VP ($1.25 per hand) after 10,000 hands.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Aug 22, 2022
August 23rd, 2022 at 12:21:35 AM
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Boyd has just posted my free play for September. $5 per visit, for 9 visits. I guess $5 is their minimum.
As I posted previously I'm getting 6 visits at $10 each from Stations.
As I posted previously I'm getting 6 visits at $10 each from Stations.
August 26th, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM
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I added $20 to my $40 free play for a $60 session start on Double Double Bonus. This was a Quads Or Bust session. Hopefully I would win quads before too long and I can cash out above even. Well, this machine was not having it. I was playing 1 coin, 25 cents, and I lost down from 240 coins to 10 coins before I hit my 50 coin quads jackpot. I was over 1100 hands into the session before I hit my first and only quads, and I ran out of money at around 1240 hands.
Even if I bought in for $20 at 1 coin & $40 at 2 coins & $100 at 5 coins for a total of $160 over 3 smaller sessions, a 250 coin JP at 5 coins would not bring me back to even with a 640 coin buy-in.
So my session lasted me just under 2 hours and I got 45 session points, or $270 spent at 1 quarter at a time, including the $40 of free play with no points.
If I was playing strictly with a $300 buy-in at 5 coins, all the money would be gone just as fast.
Even if I bought in for $20 at 1 coin & $40 at 2 coins & $100 at 5 coins for a total of $160 over 3 smaller sessions, a 250 coin JP at 5 coins would not bring me back to even with a 640 coin buy-in.
So my session lasted me just under 2 hours and I got 45 session points, or $270 spent at 1 quarter at a time, including the $40 of free play with no points.
If I was playing strictly with a $300 buy-in at 5 coins, all the money would be gone just as fast.
August 26th, 2022 at 1:56:49 AM
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Quote: ChumpChangeI added $20 to my $40 free play for a $60 session start on Double Double Bonus. This was a Quads Or Bust session. Hopefully I would win quads before too long and I can cash out above even. Well, this machine was not having it. I was playing 1 coin, 25 cents, and I lost down from 240 coins to 10 coins before I hit my 50 coin quads jackpot. I was over 1100 hands into the session before I hit my first and only quads, and I ran out of money at around 1240 hands.
Even if I bought in for $20 at 1 coin & $40 at 2 coins & $100 at 5 coins for a total of $160 over 3 smaller sessions, a 250 coin JP at 5 coins would not bring me back to even with a 640 coin buy-in.
So my session lasted me just under 2 hours and I got 45 session points, or $270 spent at 1 quarter at a time, including the $40 of free play with no points.
If I was playing strictly with a $300 buy-in at 5 coins, all the money would be gone just as fast.
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I guess you lost??
August 26th, 2022 at 2:35:21 AM
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Let me interject something of interest to this (rather mundane) discussion.
As I operate on the East Coast, I see some difference between Freeplay here versus out West.
Primarily, Freeplay is much more generous on the East Coast. You can get a lot more for a lot less(this has led unfortunately to Casinos being taken advantage of by not just my own team but even regular folks and they are being a bit stricter these days but that's for another thread).
THAT SAID, most (but not all) casinos on the East Coast disallow use of Freeplay on video poker machines. The same is true for VBJ.
Again, not everywhere but it's more the norm than the exception. And where it is allowed, I find the rules are terrible. VP that's 8/5 or worse!
Video blackjack with the following rules is STANDARD in Atlantic City (and places like Ocean and Bally's and Tropicana if I remember correctly don't allow Freeplay even with these rules).
BJ pays 1:1
No split period
No double down period.
No insurance period
That's it, it's BJ at it's most basic. You hit or stand. That's the game! The only positive rule for the player is a six (and some places five) card Charlie!
The reason I bring this up is because this entire thread experiment is limited in its value since the posters are trying to get their return on VP. Yes, congrats on turning $5 Freeplay into $5.
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30(of course variance is reduced when turning over much higher amounts but still a 50% to 80% return is standard. 100% return are your lucky days. And under 50% are your really depressing days)
So yes the East Coast is very generous with freeplay but with a lot of risk at turnover.
Years ago Axelwolf and I had a back and forth about what I would be willing to pay for freeplay. If someone offered me their freeplay I insisted I would only pay 50% value. He thought I was mad.
But I know now that it's simply because he can expect a close to 100% return out where you guys are in Vegas.
No way anyone gets close to that here with freeplay on a daily consistent basis IMO.
As I operate on the East Coast, I see some difference between Freeplay here versus out West.
Primarily, Freeplay is much more generous on the East Coast. You can get a lot more for a lot less(this has led unfortunately to Casinos being taken advantage of by not just my own team but even regular folks and they are being a bit stricter these days but that's for another thread).
THAT SAID, most (but not all) casinos on the East Coast disallow use of Freeplay on video poker machines. The same is true for VBJ.
Again, not everywhere but it's more the norm than the exception. And where it is allowed, I find the rules are terrible. VP that's 8/5 or worse!
Video blackjack with the following rules is STANDARD in Atlantic City (and places like Ocean and Bally's and Tropicana if I remember correctly don't allow Freeplay even with these rules).
BJ pays 1:1
No split period
No double down period.
No insurance period
That's it, it's BJ at it's most basic. You hit or stand. That's the game! The only positive rule for the player is a six (and some places five) card Charlie!
The reason I bring this up is because this entire thread experiment is limited in its value since the posters are trying to get their return on VP. Yes, congrats on turning $5 Freeplay into $5.
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30(of course variance is reduced when turning over much higher amounts but still a 50% to 80% return is standard. 100% return are your lucky days. And under 50% are your really depressing days)
So yes the East Coast is very generous with freeplay but with a lot of risk at turnover.
Years ago Axelwolf and I had a back and forth about what I would be willing to pay for freeplay. If someone offered me their freeplay I insisted I would only pay 50% value. He thought I was mad.
But I know now that it's simply because he can expect a close to 100% return out where you guys are in Vegas.
No way anyone gets close to that here with freeplay on a daily consistent basis IMO.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 2:46:46 AM
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Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
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I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:
Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
August 26th, 2022 at 4:09:48 AM
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Nope, that's not why. I would gladly buy bulk free play for above 50% even if the machines were set to 75%. At the standard 85%-94%, I would be over the moon if I could sit and do that all day long.Quote: darkozLet me interject something of interest to this (rather mundane) discussion.
As I operate on the East Coast, I see some difference between Freeplay here versus out West.
Primarily, Freeplay is much more generous on the East Coast. You can get a lot more for a lot less(this has led unfortunately to Casinos being taken advantage of by not just my own team but even regular folks and they are being a bit stricter these days but that's for another thread).
THAT SAID, most (but not all) casinos on the East Coast disallow use of Freeplay on video poker machines. The same is true for VBJ.
Again, not everywhere but it's more the norm than the exception. And where it is allowed, I find the rules are terrible. VP that's 8/5 or worse!
Video blackjack with the following rules is STANDARD in Atlantic City (and places like Ocean and Bally's and Tropicana if I remember correctly don't allow Freeplay even with these rules).
BJ pays 1:1
No split period
No double down period.
No insurance period
That's it, it's BJ at it's most basic. You hit or stand. That's the game! The only positive rule for the player is a six (and some places five) card Charlie!
The reason I bring this up is because this entire thread experiment is limited in its value since the posters are trying to get their return on VP. Yes, congrats on turning $5 Freeplay into $5.
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30(of course variance is reduced when turning over much higher amounts but still a 50% to 80% return is standard. 100% return are your lucky days. And under 50% are your really depressing days)
So yes the East Coast is very generous with freeplay but with a lot of risk at turnover.
Years ago Axelwolf and I had a back and forth about what I would be willing to pay for freeplay. If someone offered me their freeplay I insisted I would only pay 50% value. He thought I was mad.
But I know now that it's simply because he can expect a close to 100% return out where you guys are in Vegas.
No way anyone gets close to that here with freeplay on a daily consistent basis IMO.
link to original post
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 4:22:16 AM
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Axel what would you consider to be a fair price for buying free play in Vegas?
Of course let's also discuss an amount of free play that makes sense to buy.
I'm sure you would need an amount greater than $1,000 to make a purchase worthwhile. So what would your minimum be?
Of course let's also discuss an amount of free play that makes sense to buy.
I'm sure you would need an amount greater than $1,000 to make a purchase worthwhile. So what would your minimum be?
August 26th, 2022 at 4:28:48 AM
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You couldn't if you include all the costs and leakage. I don't know why he's claiming that. One should expect whatever return the machine payback is set to. Obviously, the type of machine and bet size you are playing will have a significant impact on your short-term variance, but you can eliminate a significant amount of the variance by playing and choosing correctly. I would be willing to bet I would never end up with less than 20% over 15 $5 free play trials playing EC slots of my choice.Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
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I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
Under normal circumstances, most AP's running free play tend to play at a level that will get the job done fast and yet still convert a good portion into cash.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 4:31:27 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 4:34:18 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
I would be willing to bet I would never end up with less than 20% over 15 $5 free play trials playing EC slots of my choice.
link to original post
And you would be willing to pay $4 for $5 Freeplay with a 20% return?
Hmmmm!For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 4:46:43 AM
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$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post
You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 4:54:30 AM
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Quote: AxelWolf$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post
You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
link to original post
Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.
As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.
Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.
Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.
So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 5:17:08 AM
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My fair price and the going rate would be different. It's hard to answer that question since there are all kinds of variables. The where and when and convenience would play a big factor.Quote: AlanMendelsonAxel what would you consider to be a fair price for buying free play in Vegas?
Of course let's also discuss an amount of free play that makes sense to buy.
I'm sure you would need an amount greater than $1,000 to make a purchase worthwhile. So what would your minimum be?
link to original post
I know people who were making a significant amount of money buying free play for 80% of face. They were well-known and trusted and dealt with known APs. Obviously, they wouldn't want to be in a situation where there's heat or where someone was up to some shenanigans that could land them in hot water.
I think they would buy as little as $25 assuming it was a place they frequented. I doubt they would go for a small amount at some obscure out-of-the-way location. Obviously, they were not playing it on slots.
Now let's say a casino lets you buy as much free play as you want. I would jump at the chance to buy as much as possible for 95%. I would pay a higher percentage depending on the game selection and denominations. It would come down to the hourly rate. TBH, I would much rather buy it and have an advantage on slots, I get super bored playing standard VP. On Slots, you never worry about making mistakes and you can play super fast while zoning out until you snag a bonus round.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 5:35:21 AM
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Nope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolf$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post
You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
link to original post
Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.
As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.
Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.
Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.
So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
link to original post
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 5:39:51 AM
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Interesting response Axel. Thank you.
Several years ago there was a big turnover of hosts at Caesars. When they landed at other Strip casinos they would offer $5k of free play to players on their phone lists to follow them to their new properties.
I'm sorry those days are over for me.
I would have sold the free play and sat next to you in case someone questioned my card in the machine.
Several years ago there was a big turnover of hosts at Caesars. When they landed at other Strip casinos they would offer $5k of free play to players on their phone lists to follow them to their new properties.
I'm sorry those days are over for me.
I would have sold the free play and sat next to you in case someone questioned my card in the machine.
August 26th, 2022 at 6:00:20 AM
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Very nice offer. For how much?Quote: AlanMendelsonInteresting response Axel. Thank you.
Several years ago there was a big turnover of hosts at Caesars. When they landed at other Strip casinos they would offer $5k of free play to players on their phone lists to follow them to their new properties.
I'm sorry those days are over for me.
I would have sold the free play and sat next to you in case someone questioned my card in the machine.
link to original post
I have had similar situations, however, they weren't calling me with offers that big, I had to finagle it out of them. Once upon a time(4-6 years ago?) the hot promotion going around was casinos matching free play offers from other casinos. Good times, Good times.
I wanted to buy AOS's 5k in free-play he won, but IIRC he went with Bob Dancer and Richard Munchkin, I think he liked the Idea of the mention on GWAE and paling around with some gambling celebs.
p.s. there's nothing better than free play except for free, free play.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
August 26th, 2022 at 6:33:17 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfNope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolf$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post
You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
link to original post
Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.
As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.
Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.
Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.
So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
link to original post
link to original post
Who's the one changing their position? You went from an extra $1 to an extra 1%?
I don't remember the previous conversation in full but I probably did set a limit of 51%. And I really don't care what other AP's do. I see them making lots of bad decisions so that comparison is meaningless. Even listening to GWAE, I hear them say things I know are wrong.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 10:34:53 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfNope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolf$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
link to original post
I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
link to original post
As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
link to original post
You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
link to original post
Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.
As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.
Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.
Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.
So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
link to original post
link to original post
Personally I wouldn’t buy anything in today’s climate. At least not at the casinos I work l. To many guys are running fake ids and doing other nonsense. Im also in the camp of oz that I would rather create the offer myself. In the past I would buy free play for 60 percent of face, but now with the countermeasures casinos are using that’s to much. At least In the regions I work. Axle probably knows ways to convert cheaply in Vegas or doesn’t have to deal with the same countermeasures casinos have put in place here. In today’s climate I would not want to introduce a card to my rotation that I didn’t know the owner. It creates a vulnerability that could potentially bring down the entire operation. Something I’m not willing to risk.
Last edited by: Seedvalue on Aug 26, 2022
August 26th, 2022 at 10:51:47 AM
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When I talk about free play I'm talking about free credits that are accessed by putting a card in a machine and entering a PIN, or vouchers that you insert as if they are currency that may or may not require a players card to be in the machine. There is no playthrough requirement.
Anything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
Anything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
August 26th, 2022 at 10:54:20 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonWhen I talk about free play I'm talking about free credits that are accessed by putting a card in a machine and entering a PIN, or vouchers that you insert as if they are currency that may or may not require a players card to be in the machine. There is no playthrough requirement.
Anything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
link to original post
Yeah because I don’t know what I’m talking about with brick and mortar freeplay. Carry on
August 26th, 2022 at 11:01:05 AM
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I redacted some info after Alan’s reply. He reminded me how little most people know on the subject. My response does nothing but educate so carry on.
August 26th, 2022 at 11:32:13 AM
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Dont you think definitions are important to keep a discussion on track?
August 26th, 2022 at 11:42:17 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonDont you think definitions are important to keep a discussion on track?
link to original post
I changed it to just casino countermeasures. Since it’s different at almost every property in the country. I think being as vague as possible is the best practice. I would go out on a limb and say three of the top 6 or so people in this particular field of AP are posting in this thread. All of us should be careful with our definitions.
August 26th, 2022 at 11:53:00 AM
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One thing I would change if I could go back in time 15 or so years would be to enjoy the experiences more. I relentless spent every day refining my process to be more efficient and profitable. To the point everyone who has worked with me calls it a job. Like the highest paying factory job you could get as one person put it.
I would gladly give up half my net worth to get back half the time I spent in casinos, and use that time to experience different things. Maybe even take 5 percent of all the cruises I’ve gotten over the years.
I would gladly give up half my net worth to get back half the time I spent in casinos, and use that time to experience different things. Maybe even take 5 percent of all the cruises I’ve gotten over the years.
August 26th, 2022 at 12:07:44 PM
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I see VPers on YouTube who start out with say $200 of free play, and they try to cash out before knowing when they've played through all $200 first, and they are left with credits on the machine left to play through instead of getting all the credits on a cash out. I haven't tried to cash out early because I saw those videos before. When I redeem my free play with a PIN, I can input how much free play I want to load onto the machine, like $5, or $10, or $20, or MAX. So if I've got more free play than I can use on one machine, just input a lower than MAX amount to load onto the machine.
When I start to see movement on my session points with the Player's Card inserted, that's when I know I've played though all my loaded free play.
When I start to see movement on my session points with the Player's Card inserted, that's when I know I've played though all my loaded free play.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Aug 26, 2022
August 26th, 2022 at 12:08:28 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonAnything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
link to original post
Every brick and mortar freeplay I have ever received has required playthrough to convert the freeplay (in the form of restricted credits) to cashable credits.
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 26th, 2022 at 12:18:12 PM
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Quote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonAnything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
link to original post
Every brick and mortar freeplay I have ever received has required playthrough to convert the freeplay (in the form of restricted credits) to cashable credits.
link to original post
Here's a perfect case of definitions causing a problem.
What do you mean by play through? Does it have to be played once or do you have to play $1,000 through $10,000 total to cash out the free play?
Yes, when I get $20 free play from Red Rock, for example, I just cant hit cash out. I have to run the $20 through as sixteen $1.25 video poker hands. Then I can cash out anything won.
But a few years ago I got $787 of free play from an online casino and I hit a $20k royal with it. But I needed $10,000 of playthrough before I could cash out any winnings from the original $787.
So definitions matter.
August 26th, 2022 at 12:53:20 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonAnything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
link to original post
Every brick and mortar freeplay I have ever received has required playthrough to convert the freeplay (in the form of restricted credits) to cashable credits.
link to original post
Here's a perfect case of definitions causing a problem.
What do you mean by play through? Does it have to be played once or do you have to play $1,000 through $10,000 total to cash out the free play?
Yes, when I get $20 free play from Red Rock, for example, I just cant hit cash out. I have to run the $20 through as sixteen $1.25 video poker hands. Then I can cash out anything won.
But a few years ago I got $787 of free play from an online casino and I hit a $20k royal with it. But I needed $10,000 of playthrough before I could cash out any winnings from the original $787.
So definitions matter.
link to original post
This conversation has been about brick and mortar Casinos from the start. I am unaware of any brick and mortar playthrough requirements beyond the initial coinage.
That's solely the realm of online Casinos so not sure I understand your bringing this up.
Land based playthrough is having to wager the dollar amount of the Freeplay before it can be converted to redeemable cash.
I'm sure there is a better description but that's about it.
Any land based Casino that tries what online Casinos do will see a quick exodus of customers.
An upstate NY Casino (I want to say Seneca but not 100%) had the following rules. You won and could redeem Freeplay OVER AND BEYOND what you won only!
For example, $100 Freeplay turns into $99, you get NOTHING!
$100 Freeplay turned into $101, you get $1 to cash out.
In other words they made the Freeplay a freeshot loan which you had to pay back by not being able to redeem anything except what you won over $100.
Well, that methodology was a disaster. And when the casino finally changed to normal Freeplay they made a big campaign to explain to their customers what idiots the Casino was (of course they worded it a bit more favorably).
There is a brick and mortar standard and I don't see any Casino trying to change that now. The cat is out of the bag.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
August 26th, 2022 at 12:57:14 PM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: DieterQuote: AlanMendelsonAnything that requires a playthrough before you can cash out sounds like some online promotion and it's certainly not brick and mortar free play.
link to original post
Every brick and mortar freeplay I have ever received has required playthrough to convert the freeplay (in the form of restricted credits) to cashable credits.
link to original post
Here's a perfect case of definitions causing a problem.
What do you mean by play through? Does it have to be played once or do you have to play $1,000 through $10,000 total to cash out the free play?
Yes, when I get $20 free play from Red Rock, for example, I just cant hit cash out. I have to run the $20 through as sixteen $1.25 video poker hands. Then I can cash out anything won.
But a few years ago I got $787 of free play from an online casino and I hit a $20k royal with it. But I needed $10,000 of playthrough before I could cash out any winnings from the original $787.
So definitions matter.
link to original post
Each restricted credit may be wagered once.
Each restricted credit must be wagered once.
The game results are returned to the player in the form of unrestricted (cashable) credits.
I believe this corresponds to a "1x playthrough".
May the cards fall in your favor.
August 26th, 2022 at 5:10:29 PM
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One must go back and read the original statement regarding buying free play and the context to get what's going on here(Anyone know off hand where it can be found?)Quote: SeedvalueQuote: AxelWolfNope, it's not silly, as you were asked a question very similar during the original conversation, and IIRC...you said no. IIRC it was probably 51% you were asked, I know that's more than $1, but it's basically the same difference. Listen, you can spin it all you want and be stubborn to save face and not admit it was just a simple mistake/dumb statement, but any smart AP knows it would be crazy not to buy free play for 51%+. If we took the top 5 Advantage players/Known "experts" or whatever, I bet they would all buy free play for 60% of face value.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolf$600 for $1200 is 50%. So you wouldn't pay $601 for 1200. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.Quote: darkozQuote: AlanMendelsonQuote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
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I've had $500 of free play, played on a $5/coin VP game where I've lost it all without even getting one pair of Jack's. Those things happen.
I think my recent run is extraordinary. I personally am amazed that I've cashed out winners at Suncoast Casino playing only four hands at $1.25 per hand.
But what really amazes me is your report:Quote: darkoz
On the East Coast that $5 would be played out of necessity on a slot machine. Expect $5 to turn into $.30
How can you run your "business" doing that?
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As I said the variance disappears to some extent with large amounts of freeplay.
Going to a casino with $5 freeplay, expect $.30 return.
But go with $500 freeplay and I will almost certainly get $400 return. 80% return is pretty standard.
Axel just said he would pay a lot more than 50% for an 80% return. Good for him. I insist on better deals.
I can earn Freeplay on my own which would give me a better than 500% return overall. It depends on where and how. Details are always different.
But if I have the choice of earning Freeplay that costs me $1000 and I get back $5000, that's better than paying $1000 for $1200 in Freeplay. Not enough profit in it for me.
$600 for $1200 Freeplay and you start to pique my interest.
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You keep forgetting the key aspect of buying free play as opposed to earning it. There's a time commitment and cost attached to earning it not to mention you never know when the sh*t will hit the fan and you end up getting ZERO free play after spending money and time earning it.
If you wouldn't buy free play for over 50%, what would you be willing to sell it for?
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Well come on now you are just being silly. If someone said they had $1200 Freeplay but insisted on $601 to make a some point of course I would buy it. These aren't hard and fast rules and I don't have grocery stickers tacked onto Freeplay for the "sale" price. There is wriggle room.
As to me selling Freeplay, I honestly have never thought about it. I can't recall ever selling Freeplay.
Too many factors. Can I play it on VBJ or does it have to be slots. What's the expiration? Traveling distance. Etc.
Other factors pertaining to me buying Freeplay are where is it coming from. I use other people's cards who are in my personal network. Last thing I need is to be sold Freeplay that comes from a stolen players card.
So I really don't have an answer as to what price I would ask for freeplay.
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Personally I wouldn’t buy anything in today’s climate. At least not at the casinos I work l. To many guys are running fake ids and doing other nonsense. Im also in the camp of oz that I would rather create the offer myself. In the past I would buy free play for 60 percent of face, but now with the countermeasures casinos are using that’s to much. At least In the regions I work. Axle probably knows ways to convert cheaply in Vegas or doesn’t have to deal with the same countermeasures casinos have put in place here. In today’s climate I would not want to introduce a card to my rotation that I didn’t know the owner. It creates a vulnerability that could potentially bring down the entire operation. Something I’m not willing to risk.
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This has slowly morphed into a bunch of afterthought reasons to justify a comment that made DO look silly.
IIRC I was Joking when I said I wouldn't play XYZ for free play (Joking, let's not drive up the price, wink wink ) DO not knowing I was joking came back with a comment in agreement that suggested free play isn't really worth much more than 50%, and that's why he wouldn't pay more. Again one must go back and read it for themselves since I don't exactly remember everything now.
Of course, you always need to be careful when making any type of deal.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
