Chump Change Software Sessions

Played three sessions on the Wiz's BJ site. I try to win 15 bets ahead, or lose 25 bets per session. The 1st session I tripled my money from $1K to $3K. The next session I doubled my bets and kept $1K aside to repeat the first session. I won from $2K to $6K + the $1K extra equals $7K. I started my third session where I doubled my bets again, or just left off where I was basically. I set aside $3K to repeat the first 2 sessions and used $4K in an attempt to triple it to $12K + $3K extra equals $15K. I got as far as $12.3K, but less than 3 minutes later I was back at $7K.

This is one of the rare times I'm getting winning sessions on this game at this site. Maybe it's because I'm playing from a different computer and the game hasn't learned me yet.
The real casinos around me may have $500 max bets, so if I want to bet $720 for example, I'd have to bet two spots at $360.
I lost 50 more hands back and quit at $1K. I could have taken a win at $7K or $15K and split them up into a bunch of $1K sessions. But I was going for more, trying to get to 25X my $1K buy-in with a 4th session.

I did make another run at $15K but didn't get much above $13K. If I did make it to $15K, my next buy-in would be $5K and I'd try to triple that $15K; but if I lose I still have $10K leftover and I could count that as a 225 bet win or a win of 9 more buy-ins. If I won the 4th session I could count that as a 600 bet win with 24 more buy-ins; but I'd likely go on to another round with double the stakes, so it'd be a 300 bet win with 12 more buy-ins. It depends what table limits I'm trying to get through. But one thing is clear, I can get past $10K and lose it all right back in a few more shoes.

I spent an afternoon playing the Ultimate Texas Hold'em Demo Game at Draft Kings. I like to bet 2/3rds of my Ante bet on the trips; so $15 on Ante, $15 on Blind, and $10 on Trips. If I go 4X on Play with a pair of kings, that's another $60 for a total bet of $100. The game starts with $2,000. I'd rather start at $2,500 in a real casino. If I get to above $3,000 I'll double my bets; if I get above $4,000 I'll triple my bets; if I get above $5,500 I'll quadruple my bets; if I get above $7,500 I'll take it to 6X my bets. I'm basically on my way to $10.5K.

At the start of this game I got a straight flush on the 2nd hand and it put me above $3,000 right away. Not long after I got another straight flush and I got to above $4,000. I finally got to $5,000 and considered just starting a new session with double my bets so I could get closer to the $200 maximum bet. I was just treading the same ground and getting nowhere. I tried using a progression where I'd increase my bets 1 unit ($10 trips + $15 Ante & Blind) on each win where the Ante won in a row. If I lost I'd reset to a base bet. The problem with that is that I'd bet 4X on Play and get beat so I'd lose a lot at the higher bets so it doesn't really put me far enough ahead. I did get to above $6K, but a bunch of losing hands at max bet knocks me back down a couple thousand.

For a $25K max payout table, my $45, $45, $30 bets are about the max.
For a $50K max payout table, my $90, $90, $60 bets are about the max.
A Royal Flush pays about $8K per unit of $15, $15, $10.

In the picture, the win amounts include the bet amounts and with various ratios, so it's not necessarily a doubling up of each.

Started this demo game with $2,000. I was betting $5 per spin and set the auto spin to 50 spins per round and reset with a win of $100 and no stop loss. I lost 25% in the first 100 spins, or $125 out of $500 bet. I shortly won back to $2K. I raised my bet gingerly to $10 and doubled my losses just as quickly but made it up on the backglass bonus round. There's a lot I could write about my session, but the highest bet is $350/spin, and in the screenshot I have here I hit $35K on a $300 spin with a win of $5K. I was getting a lot of paltry bonus round offers of less than 10, such that I'd need to take a 15 or better offer and hope a multiplier popped up (2X, 3X or 4X) and brought up the bonus significantly. I also hit a line pay for $8K at the $200/spin level that brought me to above $30K for the first time. I had a 24 credit win with a 4X multiplier at the $150 level for a $14.4K win that brought me from $9.9K to $24.3K.

I've got to go try to figure out a strategy to beat this game but it will be hard because the bonus rounds are not consistent, they can come very often a few times or drought on me for over 100 spins. I'd probably have a 200 spin minimum at whatever credits I'm at with another buy-in handy. I fell to $20K and lowered my bet to $50/spin. That could drag me down to $10K where I'd lower my bet to $25/spin.

I hit a big bonus at $100/spin, 104X my bet with a 3X multiplier for a $30.6K win! That totaled up to $54,007 on the credit meter, but the picture wouldn't upload for some reason. For sure my losses up to this point were larger than my hand pays if there were such a thing. I'd have to go by session accounting and get these W-2G's tossed out.
If I hit 1100X the $350 max bet and hit a 4X multiplier, that'd be a $1.54 million jackpot!
I'll probably want to have $20K session buy-ins with $100 minimums after I get ahead on this game so the 1000+ credit wins pay over $100K.
It said the machine had a payback of 96.3%, which could be considerably higher than a local machine of the same name. But turning $2K into $60K is a 2,900% win rate. I could split that up into 30X $2K buy-ins to last me a month, but when I turn off the computer tonight the game is over and all the credits disappear.



Bet levels are $1, $2.50, $5, $10, $25, $50, $100, $150, $200, $250, $300, $350 per spin.
I tried to screenshot my Bonus Round wins and hand pay amount wins. So here's a list of what turned up in order.
A $4K win that brought me to $6.5K on a $50 spin Bonus Round (80 credits).
A $2.5K win that brought me to $7,980 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (25 credits).
A $1.5K win that brought me to $4,105 on a $50 spin Bonus Round (30 credits).
A $3.4K win that brought me to $6,785 on a $50 spin Bonus Round (68 credits).
A $6.6K win that brought me to $10,925 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (66 credits).
A $1.2K Line 3 Pay (there was a line 1 pay too, total was $1,380) that brought me to $9,965 on a $150 spin with a Double Crowns times double bars.
A $14.4K win (24 credits X 4) that brought me to $24,365 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (96 credits).
An $8K Line 1 Pay that brought me to $31,405 on a $200 spin with two Double Crowns times a triple bars.
A $5.1K win that brought me to $35,605 on a $300 spin Bonus Round (17 credits).
A $4.4K win that brought me to $23,305 on a $200 spin Bonus Round (22 credits).
A $4.5K win that brought me to $20,725 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (30 credits).
A $1.7K win that brought me to $16,925 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (17 credits).
A $2,550 win that brought me to $19,325 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (17 credits).
A $2.2K win that brought me to $16,465 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (22 credits).
A $1.7K win that brought me to $17,865 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (17 credits).
A $3.8K win that brought me to $20,965 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (38 credits).
A $6.8K win that brought me to $25,685 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (68 credits).
A Line 1 & 3 Pay of $1,380 that brought me to $23,315 on a $150 spin with a Double Crowns times double bars.
A $1.7K win that brought me to $19,795 on a $50 spin Bonus Round (34 credits).
A $3.8K win that brought me to $22,787 on a $50 spin Bonus Round (76 credits).
A $2.4K win that brought me to $23,687 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (24 credits).
A $1.7K win that brought me to $25,107 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (17 credits).
A $30.6K win that brought me to $54,007 on a $100 spin Bonus Round (306 credits).
A $3K win that brought me to $56,287 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (20 credits).
A $5.1K win that brought me to $61,237 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (34 credits).
A $2,850 win that brought me to $55,867 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (19 credits).
A $1.8K win that brought me to $50,887 on a $150 spin Bonus Round (12 credits).

So that's a total of 27 hand pays totaling $128,860 in W-2G's on total wins of $48,887 so I'd need to document $79,973 in losses, which is more than my real total wins. It's all so confusing. This was a demo game, I'm not in tax trouble this time. I'd just say my buy-in was $2K and my cash-out was $50,887 and the session profit was $48,887.

Here's a pay table. I hit triple 7's twice. Say I have a $50/spin bet, that's $10 per line. A triple 7 would pay 60X $10 or $600. If a Double Crowns shows up with two 7's on a line that would pay $1.2K. If 2 Double Crowns show up with one 7 on a line, that would pay $2.4K.

Saw Stacy's Slots playing a one line version of Top Dollar for $200 a spin and getting $0.40 in points per spin at $500 per point. The top prize is $100,000+ and I didn't see any multipliers. This is just one version of the game and it's a high limit game with a $100 denom. She seemed satisfied with taking $4,000+ jackpots on this one. She had $10,000+ in free play she was using and she put $2,000 of it in the machine to use, or 20 credits, or 10 spins at 2 credits a spin. She won $7.5K from it.




On another machine with $25, $50, and $100 denoms and a 2X multiplier, maybe two 2X multipliers. Here she's playing a $50 denom at two credits or $100/spin and wins 175X her bet. With 350 credits ($50 denom) won in one spin, the attendant had to be called to get a hand pay. Her camera malfunctioned right after she started spinning again and all the spins were in slo-motion, so she tossed that portion out of the video.

Pompsie has a video comparing the new and old Top Dollar machines they found.
The old one uses the Credit system on the backglass that was used on the Draft Kings game. The denoms were $10, $25, $50, $100, and they chose $10 and played for $20/spin.




The new one has $5, $10, $25, and $50 denoms. Since they didn't hit hardly anything much less the Top Dollar Bonus round, I'll show both machines and the new one is on the left and the older one is on the right. They had terrible luck at each and lost $1,200 on the new one and $1,000 on the old one at $20/spin.



Found a Double Top Dollar on another channel. It has $25 and $100 denoms, 1-2 credits per spin. This has 2X posted twice on the backglass.



So I'm trying to get the sequence of the values of the prizes on the backglass.
It's 100% of the top prize on the top line. It's 0.5%, 2% and 1% on the 2nd line. It's 5%, 1%, and 0.5% on the 3rd line. It's 2%, 5%, and 10% on the 4th line. That's just for the photo above. It may vary on different games. The denom changes the top prize. So for $1 it'd be $1K; for $2 it'd be $2K, for $5 it'd be $5K, for $10 it'd be $10K, for $25 it'd be $25K, for $50 it'd be $50K, for $100 it'd be $100K, for $200 it'd be $200K, for $300 it'd be $300K. If you somehow double or triple up your bet the top prize may stick with the same denom, but the prizes below may multiply..

Found a Top Dollar Grand with 25 cent, 50 cent, $1, and $2 denoms with up to 9 lines to be bet, but it says 10 credits bet. There's 3 progressive meters on it. - video by Slot Hopper




Here's another machine she found with 25 cent and $1 denoms. She was playing 75 cents a line or $7.50/spin and hit Top Dollar. The backglass says she won 450 credits, but that only paid 450 times 25 cents, not 450 times 75 cents. I'm thinking the values on the backglass tripled with her tripled bet.

Since I'm having problems uploading photos at the moment, I'll throw in the video. She's having much better luck and fun at these machines than some of the other videos I've previewed today.

Playing the Wiz's craps game today. Had a couple sessions go to $0. The 3rd one went to under $1,000 but I recovered to my normal buy-in of $13,500 and ran it up to over $60K. I was betting $300 with $300, $400, $500 odds on the Pass Line then when I got above $13,500 I doubled it. When I got to $22,500 I tripled it, and when I got to $36,000 I quadrupled it, and when I got to $54,000 I sextupled my original bets. So instead of losing 15 times on 7-outs, I won over 30 points ahead from my bottom. I've been playing for a little less than a couple hours on this session and normally I would cash-out, but I could continue on to over $120,000. My local table has a $1K or $2K max bet on the line so I'd have to expand out to Come bets.

Back on my Roku 4 Ultra BJ game with the stats reset to zero. I've played 7 days and lost all 7 $500 sessions without quitting above $2,000. I had one session where I could have quit above $2K, but I was trying to finish a progression above $2K for it to count and that bid failed. This game now has an odd feature on 6 deck where I can double anytime I like; so if I draw to an 11 with 3 or 4 cards against a dealer 10 or less, I can double down. I'm reluctant to do it because of habit and bad luck but it's there if I'm on a roll.
So out of 2,014 hands I've played $105.7K total bet and running a 3.3% loss to the House.

I've also lost $100 on Jacks or Better Video Poker in 739 hands at $1.25/hand, for an 89.17% payback on $923.75 total bet. I did have 4 to a Royal Flush and just got a straight instead.

Played four $1,000 sessions of Spanish 21 on Draft Kings Demo and lost them all over about 4 hours. The 2nd session I did recover my original $1,000 and won an extra $1,000 more; I should have called that a win but I kept going and lost it all back. No other session broke the $1,000 ahead mark. I was using a progression that would have easily pulled me ahead with 6 in a row wins, but those seem to be few and far between. The computer gets back at me with the dealer getting "21" 6 in a row back at me.

If I find a $5 table, I'll have to budget 5 to 10 sessions of $200 buy-ins and try to win to $600 on any one session. I can't believe tables are as bad as these computer games but I just don't know. Others would say shuffle-up and play with real cards and WalMart poker chips.

Struggling to get back above $100K from $95K. I tried $300 on the PL and $300 on the PB 6 or 8 with a progression on each, but it wasn't quite going anywhere. I got more risky with $300 on the PL, $600 odds, $300 on 3 PB's with a Buy on the outside numbers for a total bet of $1800 before the progressions kick in. In less than 300 rolls I won $12.4K after the final 7-out. I've now got $7K above $100K to start new sessions at lower bets. I keep thinking if I get to a real table I'd need $700+ just to buy-in with what I do, but if I'm going to do $180 bets (1/10th) per shooter from the start, $7K may not be enough, idk. But I'm usually on bubble craps so this chart would be equal to winning 1/100th what's shown here or $124.
I usually find myself betting large when I get near $100K on this game in order to boost my balance then getting slammed with interminable losses that set me back $10K to $30K, so getting back to $100K from those kinds of onslaughts gets really tiresome.

After getting ahead $9K I should have raised my bets $900 per shooter. I could have covered 2 more PB's and added one more X of odds.

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Playing WinCraps again. Trying $60 lay bets on the 6 & 8 on the Come-out plus 2 rolls afterwards. $25 on the PL with $75 odds ($80 odds on the 5,9). I win $96 on the lay bets + $25 for a total of $121 on a 7-winner. If I lose the 6 & 8 in the 2 grace rolls, I can still about make it up with a win on the point. I pulled ahead $1,000 fairly quickly, but it's probably just beginner's luck. A 7-out on the grace rolls with 2 lay bets winning pays $96 but I lose $100-$105 on the PL with odds.

I was winning $121 on a bunch of 7-winners early on. But once I got to $1800 on my set balance ($107,800) and increased my bets to double, the bad luck settled in so I had to reduce my bets almost immediately. I called it a loss at $106K. I was losing with a bunch of knockouts to my lay bets followed by a 7-out with no point made. Other times I made the point but only after the lay bets were knocked off, or one remained. This strategy emphasizes hitting the point before losing a lay bet, or another lay bet if the point is 6 or 8. I take down the remaining lay bets after 2 grace rolls, but they are back up after the point is made for the next come-out rolls, or for the next shooter.

I've never played 10 hand video poker and ran across it at the Draft Kings site. I played the Demo game. First I played the Ultimate X and lost a Royal Flush worth of bets on a quick decline. Since it was a nickel per hand plus a nickel on the bonus or 10 cents times 10 hands for a total of $1 per play; that's an equivalent loss of 40 hands to lose $40. I got tired of the Bonus bet eating up my money and played without the Bonus bet and increased my bet to 50 cents times 10 hands for $5 per play. I wasn't losing badly on this session, I was down $20 (on top of the $40 loss on the previous session) then won a $90 quads, and a couple of $60 quads plays wins and that put me up to $1099. The Royal pays $400, times 10 would be $4,000.
I won't be playing the Ultimate X, but I might try the straight 10 hand play at 10 cents per hand times 10 hands or $1 per play for a shot at the $80 Royal times 10.
My mouse has a hard time holding cards on this screen, I hold one card and it holds 2 cards, then I try to discard the extra held card then it affects the next one down the line. The GUI is bad for me. I did find the $12.50 per play screen that pays $1,000 for a Royal.

I played 10 hands at $1.25 per hand with no Ultimate X Bonus for less than 3 hours and the first picture is my biggest win and the next one is my biggest loss, I lost 80X $12.50 over that time span.

I found this slot game at Draft Kings and I thought I'd like it since I see it online and maybe at the local casino. I had some early luck with a couple $100+ wins that put me up above $1200 from $1,000 and I had raised my bet from $4 to $5 a spin. But I had budgeted for 300 spins at $3 a spin or $900 and above that I would raise my bets in 50 spin increments. I only got 4 more bonus rounds and none of them were above $50 and I fell down to $500 and quit. The line pays on this game are abysmal. I started thumbing through the denom button and trying to figure out the different jackpots for different denoms. I still have a couple pics to upload but I'm getting errors. Maybe if I wait a little I'll get them up later.

Quote: ChumpChange

The line pays on this game are abysmal.
link to original post

(heavily truncated!)

Huff 'n More Puff is a fiercely feast or famine game.
If you don't get a high value bonus, expect to go bust.

Got Hoyle Casino Games 2012 installed on my new Windows 11 laptop, it was failing to reinstall on my Windows 10 desktop for inexplicable reasons. This game is compatible with Vista or Windows 7. So I'm given $5,000 to start with. I'm overbetting with $1,000 BJ sessions. I won the first one and got to $7,000; tripling up $1K. The 2nd one I broke even. The 3rd one was going on a losing streak but using my progressions took advantage of several longer winning streaks of 6 or more wins in a row and ran my bankroll up to $14,000. Looking at the stats I won $3.5K on negative counts, $4.5K on 0 counts, and lost $17.50 on positive counts. The whole time was like that with negative and 0 counts winning, only much worse for positive counts with losses. The game gave me a credit card for getting to $10K, so I can borrow money at the cage if I go broke later; hope that's never necessary. There's 3 other virtual dummy players with $1K each at the table with me and they are betting $5-$20 depending on the count, and there's a display I can put up so I can see the count on the screen; with the running count and the true count. I don't pay much attention to it because it doesn't make a difference to how I bet or play. I'm sure I could spend a few sessions trying it out later when I get a bigger bankroll, but when the positive count win is so awful already, why try?
With 14 X $1K sessions I have 350 bets left to play with. My goal is to get to 1,000 bets minimum ($40K), then increase it to 2,500 bets ($100K). This game sometimes lets me continue on past my lower win goals and rack up $10K wins on a session. But I'm going to try to break it up into winning 4 smaller sets that will pay out $25K on a win.

For $20 I could get a refreshed version for Windows 7, 8, & 10. Encore Classic Casino Games - [PC Download]

CC: Are Bubble Craps MACHINES considered like slots in that if you ticket out at over $1200, the casino will issue the equivalent of a 1099 to the player? If so, how can a player load the machine with more than say $1500? Can the player inform the casino manager with his intentions to avoid the above so that if his TO is $2,000 he won't be targeted when cashing his TO?

tuttigym

I think they get W-2G's for wins on a single roll of the dice that win a total of $1,200 or more including the bet returned.
I saw a video of a crapless craps machine where the players had their buy bet limits:
of $170 on the 2, 12
of $299 on the 3, 11
of $399 on the 4, 10
of $480 on the 5, 9
of $500 on the PB 6,8 + $50 on the buy 6,8
so all those payouts were under the $1,200 limit, including the 5% Buy bet vig either on the amount bet or the amount won minus the bet after the win.

If I wanted to do a 5 in a row progression on the 2, 12 from $20 to $1,000, I would find an actual table and worry about the $10,000 CTR forms at the cage with chips.

The machines can take a number of TITO's that are under $1,200 and run the balance up. Some of these crapless craps machines can have balances in the 5 figures, but they will be subject to a CTR at the cage with an over $10K TITO when cashed out unless the player takes a check or a wire transfer to their bank account or pays back some line of credit. Most bubble craps machines I see only have a $3K credit limit because casinos don't want to do some preliminary CTR work on amounts over $3K at the cage. So what happens there is any win that puts you over $2,999.99 on the credit meter issues you a TITO voucher, and it could be of any size and it's not a hand pay if the win is under $1,200.

The problem with hand pays on bubble craps, especially on community bubble craps where several players are taking turns shooting is that a hand pay will stop your terminal dead. If others are shooting, they play without you; if you were shooting, everybody has to wait for your hand pay I guess. This is why those craps tables with the glass surfaces and the individual terminals fall into disfavor, because of hand pays; people would rather not have that interruption. If you're playing low limit, there's usually no problem; but we've seen people pushing limits constantly and some just don't care if they get hand pays all the time.

Quote: tuttigym

CC: Are Bubble Craps MACHINES considered like slots in that if you ticket out at over $1200, the casino will issue the equivalent of a 1099 to the player? If so, how can a player load the machine with more than say $1500? Can the player inform the casino manager with his intentions to avoid the above so that if his TO is $2,000 he won't be targeted when cashing his TO?

tuttigym
link to original post

Usually, it is not the size of the ticket out, but the size of the win.

If you bet $700 on a 1:1 payout and win, you are usually logged as a $1400 win, and required to do tax paperwork.

If you bet $400 and "win" $800 5 times in a row, there is no win event over $1200, and no tax paperwork.

This is not the case for many VLT's, where the threshold is $600 out. Bubble Craps almost certainly cannot be operated under VLT authority.

Sure, it's dirty, but I didn't make the rules, and kvetching about it here won't change the way the world works.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: tuttigym

CC: Are Bubble Craps MACHINES considered like slots in that if you ticket out at over $1200, the casino will issue the equivalent of a 1099 to the player? If so, how can a player load the machine with more than say $1500? Can the player inform the casino manager with his intentions to avoid the above so that if his TO is $2,000 he won't be targeted when cashing his TO?

tuttigym
link to original post

Usually, it is not the size of the ticket out, but the size of the win.

If you bet $700 on a 1:1 payout and win, you are usually logged as a $1400 win, and required to do tax paperwork.

If you bet $400 and "win" $800 5 times in a row, there is no win event over $1200, and no tax paperwork.

This is not the case for many VLT's, where the threshold is $600 out. Bubble Craps almost certainly cannot be operated under VLT authority.

Sure, it's dirty, but I didn't make the rules, and kvetching about it here won't change the way the world works.
link to original post

OK. So to e clear, I buy in my bubble craps machine for $1,000 and play for two hours running up my bank to $1600 and cash out. You are saying that when going to the cashier, I will NOT receive a W-2G. Right? Do slots work the same way? I was under the impression that slot play would issue a W2-G for any amount over $1200 because a ticket redemption machine would not be able to pay that large of an amount; thus, a hand pay.

I guess what I am asking is do all hand pays generate a W2-G?

tuttigym

Yes because what triggers a hand pay is any single spin win over $1199, when this happens the machine locks up
and you must wait for a slot attendant to reset it and fill out paperwork.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Dieter

Quote: tuttigym

CC: Are Bubble Craps MACHINES considered like slots in that if you ticket out at over $1200, the casino will issue the equivalent of a 1099 to the player? If so, how can a player load the machine with more than say $1500? Can the player inform the casino manager with his intentions to avoid the above so that if his TO is $2,000 he won't be targeted when cashing his TO?

tuttigym
link to original post

Usually, it is not the size of the ticket out, but the size of the win.

If you bet $700 on a 1:1 payout and win, you are usually logged as a $1400 win, and required to do tax paperwork.

If you bet $400 and "win" $800 5 times in a row, there is no win event over $1200, and no tax paperwork.

This is not the case for many VLT's, where the threshold is $600 out. Bubble Craps almost certainly cannot be operated under VLT authority.

Sure, it's dirty, but I didn't make the rules, and kvetching about it here won't change the way the world works.
link to original post

OK. So to e clear, I buy in my bubble craps machine for $1,000 and play for two hours running up my bank to $1600 and cash out. You are saying that when going to the cashier, I will NOT receive a W-2G. Right? Do slots work the same way? I was under the impression that slot play would issue a W2-G for any amount over $1200 because a ticket redemption machine would not be able to pay that large of an amount; thus, a hand pay.

I guess what I am asking is do all hand pays generate a W2-G?

tuttigym
link to original post

Almost all machines work the same way. Video poker, video blackjack, reel slots, video keno, stadium games, roll to win, bubble craps, the electronic triple big six wheel.... basically all^* machines.
If a "game result" is $1200 or greater, a W2-G is issued.

On a slot machine, it is easy to understand game result. You buy a spin of the reels. When the reels stop, the value of any patterns is the game result. In modern gaming, this is added to your credit meter. (In olden days, the machine would just drop coins to pay the result value, rather than tracking a meter.)

If a game result meets or exceeds the preset threshold (usually $1200), the award is not accrued to the credit meter. The machine enters "lockup", and an attendant pays the win. As the game result exceeds the $1200 W2-G threshold, the attendant usually requests ID and files the W2-G at the time. This is commonly called a "handpay", as the attendant brings you the cash and pays it by hand, rather than machine. (It is sometimes called a "jackpot", but this is inaccurate for pedantic reasons that aren't germane here.)

In craps-type games, a wager can remain unresolved across several rolls, and a single roll can resolve several wagers placed at different times. The game result is the money that should be accrued to your credit meter. If that amount is $1200 or more, expect the machine to lockup, and a W2-G to be issued.

One of the hangups to get used to is that machines usually pay on a "for 1" basis, rather than a "to 1" basis. This means that an even money wager is stated as "2 for 1" rather than "1 to 1", and a winning $600 even money wager would meet the $1200 limit, which is a nuisance.

Kiosks may be configured not to redeem tickets over a certain amount. I don't often see this below $3000. There are probably reasons like refilling the kiosks takes longer than refilling a cage drawer, and big redemptions drain the cassette too quickly. More practically, AML checks like CTR/SAR kick in around this point. You may need to show ID, but it's for money laundering reporting, not tax reporting.

Quote: tuttigym

I guess what I am asking is do all hand pays generate a W2-G?

tuttigym
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(trimmed)

To specifically answer this sub-question, NO.

A handpay means that rather than the machine printing a TITO voucher (or, in the old days, dropping coins), an attendant provides the payment. If the handpay is not due to a win of $1200 or more, a W2-G is not required.

Most of the time, wins of $1200 or more initiate a lockup, and part of resolving that lockup is a handpay including a W2-G.

That said, system malfunctions can ALSO initiate a lockup, and require a handpay (but not a W2-G) to resolve. I usually see this happen when a power fluctuation interrupts the TITO voucher system. If you happen to see all the casino lights flicker (or briefly go out for a second), WAIT AS LONG AS YOU CAN STAND before pressing cash out. This gives the TITO voucher server computer a chance to come back online, so you don't have to wait 3 hours for your handpay.

I believe the smallest malfunction-lockup handpay I ever received was 17 cents. (I could be wrong - there might have been one for 3 cents.)
I believe the smallest win-lockup handpay I ever received was $250.
Neither required a W2-G. Both were unusual circumstances.


The more useful answer you might expect is that you should generally expect W2-G's with your handpays, unless something is going awry.

On Video Black Jack games there might be a side bet that has a high jackpot value, like Lucky Aces that pays 250 to 1 or 500 to 1. Some players will plunk down $5 or $10 on these bets every hand in hopes of winning a hand pay. I'm not saying hand pays can't happen on these machines or that they should be 100% avoided, but with a house advantage of near 15% to 19% on these side bets, it looks like a loser before taxes.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/lucky-aces/

Quote: ChumpChange

On Video Black Jack games there might be a side bet that has a high jackpot value, like Lucky Aces that pays 250 to 1 or 500 to 1. Some players will plunk down $5 or $10 on these bets every hand in hopes of winning a hand pay. I'm not saying hand pays can't happen on these machines or that they should be 100% avoided, but with a house advantage of near 15% to 19% on these side bets, it looks like a loser before taxes.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/lucky-aces/
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Instead of giving us the mythical HA, why not produce the actual ODDS of winning this bet. For the prospective player, the actual ODDS would be more instructive. No?

A neophyte would say "wow I have an 81% possibility of winning this thing."

tuttigym

According to the chart you'll lose the side bet 72.5% of the time, so you're just throwing money away in hopes of a high payout later on down the line. If the high payout isn't enough soon enough, you'll be short of money. Really, you're gong to have to take your HA denying psychobabble to someplace where other posters don't get suspended over your objectionable behavior. Positive variance is what players hope for to overcome the HA, and variance is what you measure in your chip rail at the craps table.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: ChumpChange

On Video Black Jack games there might be a side bet that has a high jackpot value, like Lucky Aces that pays 250 to 1 or 500 to 1. Some players will plunk down $5 or $10 on these bets every hand in hopes of winning a hand pay. I'm not saying hand pays can't happen on these machines or that they should be 100% avoided, but with a house advantage of near 15% to 19% on these side bets, it looks like a loser before taxes.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/lucky-aces/
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Instead of giving us the mythical HA, why not produce the actual ODDS of winning this bet. For the prospective player, the actual ODDS would be more instructive. No?

A neophyte would say "wow I have an 81% possibility of winning this thing."

tuttigym
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Standard house edge (house advantage) statements combine probability of winning with payoff odds.

Quote: ChumpChange

According to the chart you'll lose the side bet 72.5% of the time, so you're just throwing money away in hopes of a high payout later on down the line. If the high payout isn't enough soon enough, you'll be short of money. Really, you're gong to have to take your HA denying psychobabble to someplace where other posters don't get suspended over your objectionable behavior. Positive variance is what players hope for to overcome the HA, and variance is what you measure in your chip rail at the craps table.
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It is you who are producing the "psychobabble" as you have produced reality of winning "27.5%" which I believe is still way short. In other words, how many spins and at what cost to the player would it take to hit that 27.5% winner? You all seem to be about the funny "math" without true accountability of winning relationships to HE/HA.

What is it about the actual ODDS of winning that does not compute?

tuttigym

Quote: Dieter

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: ChumpChange

On Video Black Jack games there might be a side bet that has a high jackpot value, like Lucky Aces that pays 250 to 1 or 500 to 1. Some players will plunk down $5 or $10 on these bets every hand in hopes of winning a hand pay. I'm not saying hand pays can't happen on these machines or that they should be 100% avoided, but with a house advantage of near 15% to 19% on these side bets, it looks like a loser before taxes.
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/side-bets/lucky-aces/
link to original post

Instead of giving us the mythical HA, why not produce the actual ODDS of winning this bet. For the prospective player, the actual ODDS would be more instructive. No?

A neophyte would say "wow I have an 81% possibility of winning this thing."

tuttigym
link to original post

Standard house edge (house advantage) statements combine probability of winning with payoff odds.
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OK I get it as the payoff odds go up the probability of winning also goes up, but the player should have some sense of possible cost to him to get to that goal, no? For me, at this point using HE/HA numbers become a head fake into gambling "probabilities" which are not helpful to the player.

tuttigym

My Roku Video Poker game got a big update. They let me bet 1 to 5 coins and choose a denomination of 25 cents, 50 cents, or $1. The other update was that it would alert me that I had a made hand before the draw, unlike before when I might throw a straight away because of my ADHD. I won a $125 quads JP at the 50 cent denom that put me up near $200. I lost it all back before another quads hit. Then instead of replenishing my credit meter with another $100, it wiped all the credit meters across all the games down to $0.00 with a prompt to buy virtual coins. I can get $25 in virtual coins for free tomorrow. They want $2.99 for a $100 refill of virtual coins; or $4.99 for a refill of $500 in virtual coins. I think it's time to play the Demo version of multi-hand video poker at Draft Kings from now on. I applaud the update of the game, but they killed the game with the money grab.