Atlantic City Open Forum
Quote: ArtemisAC Caesars gives away a Total Rewards Visa Card like a piece of candy.
A customer service rep at the counter asked my friend if he wanted a Visa Card. He said yes, and he confirmed his last 4 digits of SS# right at the counter. That's it; no application was filed. It's so easy. Within a week, he received the Card in the mail. The rep also gave him an automatic upgrade to Platinum Tier Status. He also got an offer of a free room by just accepting a Visa Card. He was instructed to call 1-888-784-7946 X16946 to reserve a free room. Plus my friend can earn Reward Credits as he goes shopping with the Card.
Before I'm going to get one too, I like to get some feedbacks. It seems it's a good deal to get that card, i.e., nice perks for getting and using the Card, right guys? What's the catch, if any, guys? Do you guys have complaints against Comenity Bank, the issuer of the visa card?
There is a recent thread that addresses all these issues. The bank is fine. The offer is reasonable. You just have to decide if any other credit card is better. I keep the TR Visa to be Platinum, but it seems like that will be running out for me in March. I fly Southwest alot, so I find their card to be better for me.
Quote: ArtemisAC Caesars gives away a Total Rewards Visa Card like a piece of candy.
A customer service rep at the counter asked my friend if he wanted a Visa Card. He said yes, and he confirmed his last 4 digits of SS# right at the counter. That's it; no application was filed. It's so easy. Within a week, he received the Card in the mail. The rep also gave him an automatic upgrade to Platinum Tier Status. He also got an offer of a free room by just accepting a Visa Card. He was instructed to call 1-888-784-7946 X16946 to reserve a free room. Plus my friend can earn Reward Credits as he goes shopping with the Card.
Before I'm going to get one too, I like to get some feedbacks. It seems it's a good deal to get that card, i.e., nice perks for getting and using the Card, right guys? What's the catch, if any, guys? Do you guys have complaints against Comenity Bank, the issuer of the visa card?
My wife & I both got cards no problem. We each spent the $750.
-Got $200 +in comps immediately in our TR accts after card stmt.
-we also got what I thought was a better value vs. the current free high roller deal....each of us got (2) Buffet of buffet passes, ea pass good for 2 people.
We turned that into (16) free buffets . We had 1st buffet 8pm the 1st nite, then Bfast, lunch & 730pm dinner day2, on 2 seperate trips.
Card is a no- brainer if you need to spend $ anyway. I just made a $750 car insurance payment on each card & only use the card for 5X points at CZR proprties.
Comenity is actuallly known as a big issuer of dept store cards - they have a low credit rating threshold compared to the bigger banks- they do give cards away like candy, hoping you fall behind & make a bundle in interest . I'd only get one if you pay off entirely or the interest will cost more than the bonus quickly.
on line link:
RECEIVE UP TO 10,000 REWARD CREDITS® AS A BONUS2
Use your Total Rewards Visa Card outside of a Total Rewards destination3 on qualifying purchases2 within the first 90 days to earn:
5,000 Reward Credits after spending $250
An additional 5,000 Reward Credits after spending a total of $750
PLATINUM TIER STATUS - ASSURED
When you receive the Total Rewards Visa card, you will automatically receive an upgrade5 to Platinum Tier, or maintain your Platinum Tier status for the next year - providing you with an automatic 15% discount at casino gift shops, room discounts, and more!
YOUR REWARD CREDITS WILL NEVER EXPIRE
Your Reward Credits will never expire as long as you earn one Reward Credit once every six months, plus there is no cap on how much you can earn.
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHER GREAT BENEFITS
Carrying the Total Rewards Visa card entitles you to:
•Your choice of two (2) tickets for the High Roller in Las Vegas OR one (1) complimentary night stay at one of our Atlantic City destinations.6
•Zero liability if your card is ever lost or stolen.7
•And MORE!
https://www.totalrewards.com/content/cet-tr/en/earn-and-redeem/with-tr-alliances/tr-visa.html
Quote: MoosetonThe catch is when you get one you support the largest chain of the stingiest casinos. They're like the McDeath to casinos. The world would be a better place with them bankrupt and holding only a property or two with the rest privately owned. But you'll get a few perks out of it. But they come back as rewards credits which are really only 1/2 as valuable as you would think they are because they overprice everything. I'd recommend going with an airline CC.
This, or
Quote: MrVI use my Amazon Visa for most purchases, as they are relatively generous on awarding points (which I can only apply toward Amazon purchases), and the points are easy to use / apply toward new purchases at Amazon (one mouseclick).
I seem to do a lot of my non-grocery shopping on Amazon anyway.
This.
I use my USAirways card and my Amazon card for almost everything. The Amazon card pays back the points the fastest, that's why I like it the most. At checkout it asks if I want to use my points, I say yes, and that's all there is to it.
These complicated north eastern lawyers are always sucking up the scraps in legal fees. But what about the buildings? Seems such a waste of money with all the homeless in said area.
Quote: NokTangSo what's the local news on the closed properties? Trump Plaza and Showboat? have they been torn down or what?
These complicated north eastern lawyers are always sucking up the scraps in legal fees. But what about the buildings? Seems such a waste of money with all the homeless in said area.
Icahn just bought adjacent lot to Plaza&
http://patch.com/new-jersey/oceancity/stockton-college-agrees-purchase-shuttered-showboat-casino
Quote: NokTangSo what's the local news on the closed properties? Trump Plaza and Showboat? have they been torn down or what?
These complicated north eastern lawyers are always sucking up the scraps in legal fees. But what about the buildings? Seems such a waste of money with all the homeless in said area.
Stockton is in the process of buying Showboat. It will be used as a branch campus in AC, and the hotel will be used for additional student housing.
"Three Atlantic City casinos - Caesars, Bally's, and the now-shuttered Showboat - landed in the dumping ground of properties with uncertain futures called Caesars Entertainment Operating Co...Harrah's Resort Atlantic City, by contrast, was put into Caesars Entertainment Resort Properties L.L.C., which also includes five Nevada casinos and has a better chance of surviving and making good on its debts, according to analysts....That split divided Caesars properties into haves and have-nots, as is evident in the levels of capital expenditures by Caesars in Atlantic City....The money being invested in the new conference center is 30 percent more than the combined capital expenditures at Caesars' three other Atlantic City properties over the last five years, according the lawsuit."
Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20141129_Creditors__hedge_funds_tangle_over_Caesars__resources.html#2ORHz4GxeRXBjXpk.99
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/12/03/atlantic-city-rescue-plan-would-cut-casinos-taxes-by-28-pct-in-1st-2-years-43/
I don't think it's a good idea without specifically mandating debt reductions and/or capital improvements. Across the board tax cuts fails making the strong stronger and weak weaker, thereby defeating any intentions to stabilize or grow the market and employment. No sense to ease tax burden if easing said burden allows more siphoning and the casinos just go bankrupt anyways.Quote: 7star4nowAtlantic City rescue plan would cut casinos taxes by 28 pct in 1st 2 years; 43 pct after that
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/12/03/atlantic-city-rescue-plan-would-cut-casinos-taxes-by-28-pct-in-1st-2-years-43/
There is an opinion piece about the Showboat purchase possibly transforming AC. I don't know,, sounds like a little bit of wishful thinking, but it may be a start.
While it will certainly be interesting. I doubt the college will run it as a casino, though if they do it would be tax free, so it could make a decent profit for the school. But it sounds like the hotel and other commercial properties will continue to be run by the school as they have done with the Seaview. In any case better than a huge desolate building in the middle of the city.
Quote: 7star4nowAtlantic City rescue plan would cut casinos taxes by 28 pct in 1st 2 years; 43 pct after that
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/12/03/atlantic-city-rescue-plan-would-cut-casinos-taxes-by-28-pct-in-1st-2-years-43/
Well so much for the market forces being allowed to prevail in the AC, hey hey.
Quote: soxfanWell so much for the market forces being allowed to prevail in the AC, hey hey.
Well casinos have so many fees, taxes, regulat8ons, fines, etc... compared to other buisnesses, this probably does nothing other than put them on equal footings compared to other industries. If this helps the casinos stay open it will actually make the state money as it will keep their revenues from the casinos up as opposed to losing everything.
Quote: soxfanWell so much for the market forces being allowed to prevail in the AC, hey hey.
Actually, a 28% cut on property taxes is probably less than how much the property has actually devalued in the past few years.
PM me please if you don't want to share the wealth publicly!
My wife & I would like to use comps for 4 addtl. guests- I believe they charge $25 comp per addtl. guest?
is that still the case or are you limited to 2 addtl. guests? -tx
Quote: 7star4nowDiamond lounge question... I always forget the answer to this - anybody know what the current AC limit/comp cost is for bringing in guests?
My wife & I would like to use comps for 4 addtl. guests- I believe they charge $25 comp per addtl. guest?
is that still the case or are you limited to 2 addtl. guests? -tx
I would call the casino you want to go to, ask to speak to a host, and ask them what the policy is. Probably get a faster and more reliable answer that way.
Quote: 7star4nowDiamond lounge question... I always forget the answer to this - anybody know what the current AC limit/comp cost is for bringing in guests?
My wife & I would like to use comps for 4 addtl. guests- I believe they charge $25 comp per addtl. guest?
is that still the case or are you limited to 2 addtl. guests? -tx
Each diamond card holder is allowed 1 guest, so if you and your wife are both diamond, you can bring 2 guests. If you are still 7* you are allowed 3 guests and they are all free. You could always ask a host to bring in more guests.
I think it's still the case in Vegas that 1 guest is free but no additional guests allowed even if you wanted to pay.
They ought to take player's $ for this @ Planet Hollywood - big lounge with a handful of people in it every time I've been.
It is, or at least it still was the last time I used my Diamond card before it expired about 8 or 9 months ago.Quote: 7star4nowI think it's still the case in Vegas that 1 guest is free but no additional guests allowed even if you wanted to pay.
The parent company of the shuttered Showboat Casino Hotel has slapped a deed restriction on the property that could prevent it from being resurrected as a casino for 10 years, according to recently filed real estate documents.The move by Caesars Entertainment Corp. would bar casino gambling, including Internet wagering, at the Showboat property for the next decade, the documents indicate. However, the deed restriction would be lifted before then if a buyer paid a price that reflects Showboat’s market value as a casino, Caesars Entertainment spokeswoman Jan Jones Blackhurst said...Caesars Entertainment is currently in negotiations to sell Showboat to the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey for an Atlantic City campus that would not include casino operations."
Quote: 7star4now"Caesars Entertainment places deed restriction on Showboat
The parent company of the shuttered Showboat Casino Hotel has slapped a deed restriction on the property that could prevent it from being resurrected as a casino for 10 years, according to recently filed real estate documents.The move by Caesars Entertainment Corp. would bar casino gambling, including Internet wagering, at the Showboat property for the next decade, the documents indicate. However, the deed restriction would be lifted before then if a buyer paid a price that reflects Showboat’s market value as a casino, Caesars Entertainment spokeswoman Jan Jones Blackhurst said...Caesars Entertainment is currently in negotiations to sell Showboat to the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey for an Atlantic City campus that would not include casino operations."
Interesting...I would love to know the legality of this move. Do they have the right to say what happens to a piece of real estate after they own it? For 10 years?...seems over reaching to me. Now obviously they could make an arrangement with Stockton (or whomever buys it) that it not be used as a casino, for X number of years. But say for whatever reason Stockton sold it...or went out of business...or whatever. A deed restriction seems crazy to me. I mean I understand why CET would want to do that. I just don't see why the City of AC or the State of NJ would allow it. I think we need a real estate attorney. Or maybe ace can help us. Just seems a little hinky to me.
Coupled with the crap that is Atlantic City as a whole and the poor customer service it was bound to happen that is the disaster today when all this can be avoided. Sadly PA casinos are no different. Hopefully the upcoming casinos in New York and Massachusetts will learn from this.
Quote: vendman1Interesting...I would love to know the legality of this move. Do they have the right to say what happens to a piece of real estate after they own it? For 10 years?...seems over reaching to me.
Deed restrictions are legal. You can sell a property with the proviso that the new owner not use it forlegal purposes.
But there is also laws that give the Department of Gaming Enforcement leeway to limit the amount of control that one organization can have on NJ gaming. Specifically this law prevents any single owner from controlling more than 50% of operations (which is not the case as Borgota alone makes more than one quarter of NJ revenue). But there is other language in the law the should give DGE legal basis to challenge Ceasars attempt to blatantly reduce competition.
I suspect that the whole thing is a way to keep bids for the property high. If someone buys the property for a low price and Ceasars slaps a deed restriction, the new owner will have to litigate. It may be cheaper for them to meet the asking price for an unrestricted deed.
Quote: pacomartinDeed restrictions are legal. You can sell a property with the proviso that the new owner not use it forlegal purposes.
But there is also laws that give the Department of Gaming Enforcement leeway to limit the amount of control that one organization can have on NJ gaming. Specifically this law prevents any single owner from controlling more than 50% of operations (which is not the case as Borgota alone makes more than one quarter of NJ revenue). But there is other language in the law the should give DGE legal basis to challenge Ceasars attempt to blatantly reduce competition.
I suspect that the whole thing is a way to keep bids for the property high. If someone buys the property for a low price and Ceasars slaps a deed restriction, the new owner will have to litigate. It may be cheaper for them to meet the asking price for an unrestricted deed.
Well that all makes sense. Again, if I'm CET I understand why they would want a deed restriction. I guess I was asking if it will be permitted/accepted in the real world, of crooked, incompetent AC/NJ politics. I guess if enough of the right people get some green anything is possible. I don't know why any company would buy the property with a deed restriction, even if it had no intention of opening a casino there. It limits the future value of the property greatly.
So while CET may want a deed restriction, getting one may be a different story.
Quote: vendman1Well that all makes sense. Again, if I'm CET I understand why they would want a deed restriction. I guess I was asking if it will be permitted/accepted in the real world, of crooked, incompetent AC/NJ politics. I guess if enough of the right people get some green anything is possible. I don't know why any company would buy the property with a deed restriction, even if it had no intention of opening a casino there. It limits the future value of the property greatly.
So while CET may want a deed restriction, getting one may be a different story.
They've already done it twice recently in AC with Atlantic Club and Claridge.
Quote: bobsimsYou would be surprised how a free room, buffet and some free play reels in the suckers. Don't forget they have a massive database from 2 casinos to work with.
I Agree. Offer $5 or $10 free play to everyone who walks thru the door on "Grand Re-Opening Day" and people would come in droves. Have free food and drinks available, a party atmosphere. Get them all to sign up for new players card program. Start over. Would need extra employees to deal with the lines...
Side note: I was very put off while playing at Ballys that I couldn't get a bottle of beer unless I was a 7 stars cardholder. WTF? I had to drink watered down beer in a plastic cup AND had to pay $1 for it. Didn't think about it then but I should have just asked to BUY my own damned bottle of beer. I understand if government laws prohibit distributing free alcohol, but that was just ridiculous. AND that was Only at Ballys. The other 3 (at the time) CET properties had no such policy.
Actually this could be the 1st step in regaining AC's image as a gambling destination- make it a little more "vegas lite"-gambling everywhere, more competition, distinguish itself as a gambling destination vs local singled property dominated slot parlors
Despite Kevin pulling his historic face plant, fantasizing all adults within 10 hrs driving distance would climb over each other to pay 1000's for a couple of nites NOT to gamble at Revel, the media & powers that be, still cling to the illusion of AC as a non-gaming draw.
They must face the fact that, in many ways, AC is an armpit that 99.9% of the traveling population would choose having all their teeth pulled vs visiting, were in not for gambling. Embrace it. Would anyone on this board ever have visited Vegas, in the middle of nowhere in a desert, unless the art of creating excitement via gaming was created via Bugsy, Wynn et all?
How about Macau? -pulls in 100X the revenue of traditional tourists spots - who the hell ever heard of it until they went all in on gaming?
"Someone is interested in opening a new casino in Atlantic City after all.
The owner of the city's Chelsea hotel said Thursday he wants to open a small casino there under a bill being considered by New Jersey lawmakers.
Curtis Bashaw says his 330-room hotel would be a perfect spot for one of the two new so-called "boutique casinos" envisioned by a plan making its way through the state legislature.The new casino would be the first to open in Atlantic City since the ill-fated Revel debuted in April 2012"
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/owner-of-atlantic-citys-chelsea-hotel-wants-to-open-small-casino-under-proposed-bill-285558651.html
Quote: Dicenor33Will it consist of 3 slot machines and a portable (two players max) craps table?[/
You jest, but Don Laughlin pretty much started that way...One must rise at the tree where one fell
Never one to defend CET, but I always get bottles & limited top shelf at Bally's as DIA- as recently as last weekend- may have been a mistake or (highly unlikely???) poor customer service in AC?
Quote: ECoasterThey've already done it twice recently in AC with Atlantic Club and Claridge.[/
Hmm good point. I knew about A. Club..but wasn't aware there was a deed restriction. Claridge they bought and kept open for a while and marketed it as "the Ridge. I think they still use the hotel part as part of Bally's on busy weekends and such. Or they used to...haven't been over there in a while.
Quote: 7star4now"Side note: I was very put off while playing at Ballys that I couldn't get a bottle of beer unless I was a 7 stars cardholder. WTF? I had to drink watered down beer in a plastic cup AND had to pay $1 for it. "
Never one to defend CET, but I always get bottles & limited top shelf at Bally's as DIA- as recently as last weekend- may have been a mistake or (highly unlikely???) poor customer service in AC?
My experience is if you are playing tables at CET properties they'll bring you whatever. At slots you have to be diamond or above to get bottle beers. Or a glass of wine. Otherwise it's cheap stuff in a plastic cup for you.
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g29750-i78-k5238820-Question_s_for_jaysonrevel-Atlantic_City_New_Jersey.html
Normally I don't even take advantage of free alcohol but if I did, I would rather smuggle my own alcohol than be treated like that where alcohol was always free then they say losses aren't good enough.
Quote: onenickelmiracleSeemed like an obvious move once drinks became digital for them to start segregating who gets what by card. Crap beer draft for $1 seems surprising though. Any chance just being hustled by a waitress?
Normally I don't even take advantage of free alcohol but if I did, I would rather smuggle my own alcohol than be treated like that where alcohol was always free then they say losses aren't good enough.
Well from what the other posters wrote, seems they have improved. My bad experience was only at ballys. Ordered the beer from the slot machine for $1. Moved on to table game where waitress told me the story about bottled beer. Played at all 4 caesars properties that weekend. That was back in May. Q
Well Stockton just purchased the Showboat. It will be operational by Spring 2015, with classes there by Fall2015.
At this time no plans to be run as a Casino. The gaming floor will mostly be converted in class rooms and halls. The hotel will be used as student housing.
http://intraweb.stockton.edu/eyos/page.cfm?siteID=197&pageID=16&layout=news&ID=170
-official site
-It sounds like 1 of the towers will still be used as a commercial hotel to make revenue.
Quote: BozStill way down versus last year so the theory the other casinos would pick up the business is only part correct. Looks like many players have just given up on AC. Personally I am visiting Vegas much more with cheap flights from Philly often available along with better treatment. AC is almost an afterthought anymore.
Well I think what people are saying is that by downsizing the number of casinos in AC, they are going to be more in line with the marketplace. If you look at the numbers year over year. The remaining casinos are up...with the exception of the Taj, and we all know whats going on there. The glory days of AC (if they ever existed at all) are over. But the remaining casinos should be in a much better position to remain profitable. I've said it before and will say it again. AC did 6B pre competition from other states...now they are down to just under 3B. So it's simple...half as much business...half as many casinos. There were 12 at one time...we are going to end up at 6 or 7 probably.
The idea that AC will just blow away in the sand is ridiculous. It's just a new, much smaller, marketplace is all.
Quote: vendman1Well I think what people are saying is that by downsizing the number of casinos in AC, they are going to be more in line with the marketplace. If you look at the numbers year over year. The remaining casinos are up...with the exception of the Taj, and we all know whats going on there. The glory days of AC (if they ever existed at all) are over. But the remaining casinos should be in a much better position to remain profitable. I've said it before and will say it again. AC did 6B pre competition from other states...now they are down to just under 3B. So it's simple...half as much business...half as many casinos. There were 12 at one time...we are going to end up at 6 or 7 probably.
The idea that AC will just blow away in the sand is ridiculous. It's just a new, much smaller, marketplace is all.
AC has been a hugely popular tourist destination since the 1800s, Casinos are a relatively new feature (late 70s). AC is not going anywhere nor are all of the casinos even if several close. NJ wants casinos and will do whatever they can to help the remaining ones.
As much as I am personally saddened by the loss of several casinos as it will inevitably mean less options and less competive comps, it may be good for the city.
If AC becomes known as a beach tourist destination with casinos as one of many features it will improve the quality of the city.
One Casino is getting converted into a college. I am not tracking Revel, but if that gets converted into an elite college or whatever that guy called it, that will be 2 casinos that are housing and teaching students, which will certainly change the demographics of the city. If AC changes to have a reputation as a college town, beach resort, with casinos as an almost secondary feature it will certainly improve the island for everybody.
Plus if the economy turns, maybe some new and more modern casinos will open, the elimination of some casinos will (maybe not for many years, but eventually) allow for potentially new rise of casinos in the future if tourism and the local economy picks up.
Quote: GandlerAC has been a hugely popular tourist destination since the 1800s, Casinos are a relatively new feature (late 70s). AC is not going anywhere nor are all of the casinos even if several close. NJ wants casinos and will do whatever they can to help the remaining ones.
As much as I am personally saddened by the loss of several casinos as it will inevitably mean less options and less competive comps, it may be good for the city.
If AC becomes known as a beach tourist destination with casinos as one of many features it will improve the quality of the city.
One Casino is getting converted into a college. I am not tracking Revel, but if that gets converted into an elite college or whatever that guy called it, that will be 2 casinos that are housing and teaching students, which will certainly change the demographics of the city. If AC changes to have a reputation as a college town, beach resort, with casinos as an almost secondary feature it will certainly improve the island for everybody.
Plus if the economy turns, maybe some new and more modern casinos will open, the elimination of some casinos will (maybe not for many years, but eventually) allow for potentially new rise of casinos in the future if tourism and the local economy picks up.
I'm aware of AC's history...you seem to be agreeing with my points...I hope you are right. It's clear that for AC to improve it need a future that both includes casino gaming but some other draws as well. I don't think the diving horse is coming back either. So they are going to have to think outside the box some.
Quote: vendman1I'm aware of AC's history...you seem to be agreeing with my points...I hope you are right. It's clear that for AC to improve it need a future that both includes casino gaming but some other draws as well. I don't think the diving horse is coming back either. So they are going to have to think outside the box some.
I am agreeing with you, I was attempting to help your rebuttal by bringing up some additional points.
AC will always have one thing going for it that almost no other American Casino City can say, it is an island, so it will always have the beach tourism feature to play with. The downside of this, is that there is no major airport nearby, which greatly hinders tourism. Now that Philly has Casinos there is less incentive for people stopping in Philly on a flight to take a day trip to AC. Which is why AC needs to play up its summer beach potential and other unique possibilities that its geography gives it.
for the beach, let alone a family. Wildwood and Ocean City are too nearby. Plus the city is basically a ghetto.
Quote: BozStill way down versus last year so the theory the other casinos would pick up the business is only part correct. Looks like many players have just given up on AC. Personally I am visiting Vegas much more with cheap flights from Philly often available along with better treatment. AC is almost an afterthought anymore.
+1 heading to Vegas a few times a year satisfies the itch
Quote: aladyat42Nobody is going to AC
for the beach, let alone a family. Wildwood and Ocean City are too nearby. Plus the city is basically a ghetto.
Family you may have a point. Ocean City (which is where I live) seems to have a monopoly on the family market, because of their blue laws almost no other city will match them ever, since I can't picture any other nearby city banning alcohol from the city.
Have you been to Wildwood recently? It's not so nice either, though improving.
However AC has nice large beaches, the advantage of alcohol market, gambling, adult venues, etc...
Which is why the idea of competing with Ocean City's main demographic is not only crazy, but impossible. But they can try to restructure as a college young adult town and try to draw in a new group of young people. If the town is cleaned up, beaches made a bit more nice, the clubs are there already, and certainly the bars, the colleges are quickly coming, on a few parts of the forumula are missing.
But you are right, nobody will be able to take over Ocean City's demographics because no other town will be willing to strictly enforce blue laws, the banning of alcohol and of course adult places, strict curfews, and limited businesses on Sunday's. Not to mentions casinos would have to go...
Now 35 years later and nothing has changed, except the boardwalk has gotten seedier and the beach has been allowed to erode. AC has not hit bottom yet, not quite.
