Pro Video Poker
As a follow up...I have heard only a handful of people around the country make over 100K and only a few hundred can make 40K, but there seem to be quite a few grinding out a few dollars an hour maybe...what separates the $2/hr guy from the $20/hr guy?
I am going to assume you are a legit poster for now.Quote: CardDolphinMy understanding a professional video poker player finds a machine that pays out nearly 100%. But in order to get over 100% they rely on Casino promotions and free gifts and comps. My question is how do they make money if they are only paid over 100% in stuff they cannot pay their bills with? In other words how do you pay your rent with a free buffet?
As a follow up...I have heard only a handful of people around the country make over 100K and only a few hundred can make 40K, but there seem to be quite a few grinding out a few dollars an hour maybe...what separates the $2/hr guy from the $20/hr guy?
There are machines such as progressives that return over 100%. Promotions oftentimes earn you free-play or cash. Free play can be converted into cash. The value of the free play will be equal to the percentage payback on whatever machine you play it on( in the long-run that is). You can get 80% or more in cash for your free play by selling it if you really wanted to. Free gifts, food, rooms, shows, and whatnot are just icing on the cake for the most part. Some people even sell their comps and gifts to others.
Bankroll, machine denominations(not always the case), knowledge, skill, information, determination can all play a factor as to how much money you can make.
I wouldn't even want to make a guess as to how many people there are and what they are making.
Gift items can be sold; at one drawing session, I bought 4oz ingots of gold for 700-800$/ea. In more common example, I once encountered somebody ardently checking eBay; the market value of the gift selections ranged from nil to about 200$.
Also, the Palms used to have FPDW which paid out over 100%. Is that still around?
Assuming I like the situation, I will play and or invest in anything gambling related that has a positive expectation(or +EV expected value). I have played millions of hands on VP with positive expectation. So whatever you want to call that. People use the term Advantage Player(AP) nowadays.Quote: CardDolphinThanks Axel...i am very legit... you pro video poker player?
Sure they do, there are many of them. The Wizard has(had) one. I have no clue how you get a copy. You can use the Wizard of Odds site for calculations, and it's free. He also has strategy charts available.Quote: CardDolphinI know there is software that lets you practice on a given machine, but have they yet to invent an app where you enter the cards and they tell you exactly what to do
Mike can I get a free copy????
Quote: VenthusYou don't pay your rent with a free buffet... you decrease your food expenses with a free buffet.
if you really make the most of your free buffet you might not have to eat again for a couple of days. a tremendously +ev event. (-:}
Quote: lilredroosterif you really make the most of your free buffet you might not have to eat again for a couple of days. a tremendously +ev event. (-:}
Fortuitous timing... this came up on my morning news just the other day:
Quote:A German triathlete was banned from an all-you-can-eat restaurant for eating all he could eat. Jaroslav Bobrowski went to Running Sushi in Bavaria. You pay a flat fee - in this case, around 18 bucks - and eat as much sushi as humanly possible. But Bobrowski isn't like other humans. He follows an extreme diet where he doesn't eat for 20 hours, then eats until he's full. In this case, that meant nearly a hundred plates of sushi. He tried to tip when he left, but they said, no thanks - and don't come back.
Quote: CardDolphinI know there is software that lets you practice on a given machine, but have they yet to invent an app where you enter the cards and they tell you exactly what to do
that would be cheating (mechanical/computer device)
just memorize the strategy before you go
Quote: CardDolphinWould you say video poker has more or less variance than other forms of pro gambling (card counting, sports betting, live poker, etc)...will you still have losing weeks and months?
It may have more variance but you get to the long run quicker due to the sheer volume of hands. Not really sure but that's my opinion. If you have losing multi months you probably aren't playing much whereas you could have that in table play blackjack easy.
You are asking too broad of a question. It's all going to come down to what kind of plays you make, what kind of bankroll you are working with, your risk tolerance, location and goals.Quote: CardDolphinWould you say video poker has more or less variance than other forms of pro gambling (card counting, sports betting, live poker, etc)...will you still have losing weeks and months?
BJ has less variance than VP, however, I think you need a larger bankroll for card counting since the edge is small. Your bets need to be much higher than VP to make any significant money. It's not all that uncommon to run bad when the count is high and you have your bigger bets out.
Blackjack is slow compared to VP so it will take a longer period of time to get into the long run. The average VP player can get out 800 hands an hour consistently. You can find low denomination VP plays with much higher percentages than BJ.
Also, You didn't mention slots, things like slot vulturing.
This year when I won a daily and went to the booth there was literally a guy there complaining about me, "That Brad gets called all the damn time". I laughed and said, "Yes I do sir".. ..Dude I have 4200 tickets and you probably have under 80..…. For this promo tickets carried over each week so loading up the first week was a huge edge. And on drawing days it was 3X tickets. You can guess where I was at 3 AM on the first drawing day.
Next month is carribean cruises. Pass. No value to me since you end up with a $6000 1099-MISC afterwards.
Comps on top of all that. I've got tons of $100-$300 bottles of unopened wine taken home from the steakhouse. And I just had the best meal of my life. A comped $200 Miyazaki Waygu Ribeye.
Steak https://imgur.com/a/IPeJk4O
Quote: CardDolphinMy understanding a professional video poker player finds a machine that pays out nearly 100%. But in order to get over 100% they rely on Casino promotions and free gifts and comps. My question is how do they make money if they are only paid over 100% in stuff they cannot pay their bills with? In other words how do you pay your rent with a free buffet?
That's not a professional, that's a hobbyist. But still a more profitable hobby than watching Netflix or playing Fortnite for most people. And with points, cash back, promotions, progressives, and better game selection, it is possible to find something that is more than 100% even before the free buffet.
Quote: CardDolphinwhat separates the $2/hr guy from the $20/hr guy?
About $18 per hour
Or 0.45% on a $1 game (using the 800 plays per hour stated here already). Like most forms of income, to find that extra edge, usually just have to work harder or smarter or have better connections.
Quote: BTLWIIt's usually about good promos that come along with your heavy play. You have to be able to semi accurately evaluate what they might be worth. You can put in massive amounts of coin in and earn more than your fair share of drawing tickets. Two years in a row I've won the local TournEvent slot tournament and get to compete in Vegas for $1M in October. I was called for the daily qualifiers more than anyone in the casino both years. That allowed me to secure every available time slot in the semi finals. In fact I had to forfeit some qualifiers because there were no more semi final time spots left for me to play in - I had advanced into all of them.
This year when I won a daily and went to the booth there was literally a guy there complaining about me, "That Brad gets called all the damn time". I laughed and said, "Yes I do sir".. ..Dude I have 4200 tickets and you probably have under 80..…. For this promo tickets carried over each week so loading up the first week was a huge edge. And on drawing days it was 3X tickets. You can guess where I was at 3 AM on the first drawing day.
Next month is carribean cruises. Pass. No value to me since you end up with a $6000 1099-MISC afterwards.
Comps on top of all that. I've got tons of $100-$300 bottles of unopened wine taken home from the steakhouse. And I just had the best meal of my life. A comped $200 Miyazaki Waygu Ribeye.
Steak https://imgur.com/a/IPeJk4O
That reminds me of a drawing I was playing for a while back. Long story short, they called 10 people each time, and I got called 5 out of the 6 I participated in. The fourth drawing, the announcer calls my name like “and the next winner is RS, are you here in the crowd RS...oh yeah, I know he’s here, welcome back!” I usually got my name called within 3-4 names. That was fun.
One guy was saying I was cheating or something. Whatever. Later on I saw him playing very slowly on min bet slots. Not to disparage him, but I probably had at least 1,000x as many entries as he did.
Also got some nice comps which is always nice. Nothing “super killer”, but got like $500 at the steakhouse, ran the bill up to like $700-800, called the host and he upgraded the comp immediately.
Unfortunately people figured out it was really easy to win in the drawing and then lots of people played it and then wasn’t as good.
Off topic:
Lol I’m sitting in front of a restaurant after finishing my dinner and a group of younger fellers walk out of another place and they’re SCREAMING at each other. #OhSh** #WorldStar! So I can’t really interpret what they’re saying but they mad AF. Figured I’d stay and observe because YOLO. After finishing my post here, I hear them talking about Paladins, bosses, raids, kiting, etc. Turns out they’re yelling about World of Warcraft (most likely) and they’re about to fight each other. It’s hilarious.
Quote: RS
Off topic:
Lol I’m sitting in front of a restaurant after finishing my dinner and a group of younger fellers walk out of another place and they’re SCREAMING at each other. #OhSh** #WorldStar! So I can’t really interpret what they’re saying but they mad AF. Figured I’d stay and observe because YOLO. After finishing my post here, I hear them talking about Paladins, bosses, raids, kiting, etc. Turns out they’re yelling about World of Warcraft (most likely) and they’re about to fight each other. It’s hilarious.
lol retpallys
You’re “legit” and have never heard of counting cards?Quote: CardDolphinWon't the same logic with blackjack... perfect basic strategy can get you at about 99.5% and don't you get comps/card points with play at the tables that can take you over 100%?
Quote: RomesYou’re “legit” and have never heard of counting cards?
Only works on single and double deck. Nobody can count a 6 deck chute
Quote: CardDolphinAnybody with a serious response?
Casino will figure your theoretical loss and then give a percentage of it back to you in comps. You may approach 100% on basic strategy BJ but shouldn't get there unless the casino errs. That's not to say they don't. The point being made here is that unless you learn card counting with all of the nuances that go with it you won't make money playing BS BJ.
Quote: CardDolphinWon't the same logic with blackjack... perfect basic strategy can get you at about 99.5% and don't you get comps/card points with play at the tables that can take you over 100%?
Yes. But, again, earning $10 per week plus a lunch buffet probably shouldn't count as a "pro"
The pay out of any video poker game is determined by the pay table, which you can access with the push of a button.
Possibly. Some newer machines will show the game currently being played, even though there are other game options. However, most older machines (think El Cortez), and a few newer ones are programmed for one game only and have permanent signage for that game. Some machines just display the name of the machine (e.g. "Game King," "All Star Poker II"), and you have to check them to see if they have Double Double Bonus (DDB). You'll find that most of these machines do.Quote: CardDolphinSo even though says double double bonus poker on the sign i have to select it among many to get the 98.98% payout?
Keep in mind that different machines are set for different paybacks. Just because you find a machine that has Double Double Bonus, it doesn't mean that it is the 98.98% payback version. You have to look at the paytables, specifically the payout for the flush and the full house, to determine the payback. The 98.98% version pays 6 for 1 for a flush and 9 for 1 for a full house, and is often referred to as "9/6" DDB.
Many times, especially at the lower denominations, you will see the payouts for these two hands reduced. E.g., I have seen 9/5, 8/6, 8/5, and even 7/5. Each coin reduction for either the flush or full house payout results in roughly a 1% lower payback. Conversely, there are some casinos in Vegas (e.g., Stations properties), that will offer 10/6 DDB, which has a 100.07% payback -- an edge in favor of the player, not the house!
Most importantly, all of the payback numbers listed are for optimal play. If you do not make the correct holds, your payout will be less than what is advertised. From my experience, you can learn near-optimal play with a bit of practice, but true optimal play requires knowing the exceptions to the near-optimal rules, and that takes a little more time to master.
Yes.Quote:So the 4000 for royal is 4k betting units and not dollars?
99.54% of the time, this is true. I once played a machine that only paid 1250 for a royal with a max 5-coin bet, so there was no penalty for short-coining. I have also played machines where you could bet up to 10 coins, but only 5 coins were needed to be bet to get the 800 for 1 royal payout.Quote:And its best to always max bet
If you haven't been there already, the Wizard of Odds VP page has lots of good information and resources for video poker in general as well as strategies for specific games. I would also highly recommend the Free Video Poker Trainer on the right side about halfway down the page if you want to practice your strategy.
Quote: CardDolphinHow do you figure a Player's Club return percentage?
Honestly, you don't. Most places that info is proprietary. Some of them will tell you how many points/dollar coin in, but not tell you on tables. A very few will tell you what your table play is worth in points.
But the formulas they use to decide what your value is to them, they don't share. As in, what it takes to get a free room offer, or x $ in freeplay, or y $ in food credits.
For machine play, many casinos will have this info available on their website, but you sometimes have to dig for it. Some casinos (I know CET casinos do this) accumulate points at a lower rate for their higher payback VP games. VPFree2 dot com is a good resource for this -- at least it used to be.Quote: CardDolphinHow do you figure a Player's Club return percentage?
Also, if you look at the individual casino reports in the "HOTELS" section of this site (link at the top of this page), many times the reviewer (especially if it's the Wizard doing the review) will outline the players club specifications for that casino. Warning: some of that material may be dated.
You can always ask the representative at the player's club desk in person or over the phone.
Babs is right about table play -- good luck figuring how to calculate your comps at the tables.
Quote: CardDolphinHow do you account for things like free buffets or free trips or other things that you can't necessarily transfer or sell?
Common sense accounting. You decide what it is worth to you and go from there.
Some people will look at two free nites in AC as a small windfall/ small vacation. Others won't even read the invite.
If you were planning on crossing the street for a $5 value meal, but were given a buffet worth $16.99, you saved the price of a Value meal.
Quote: CardDolphinHow do you account for things like free buffets or free trips or other things that you can't necessarily transfer or sell?
There’s not really a standard answer. It depends on what is being offered, the casino and their comp system, and the goals of the individual player.
A lot pro players will not even swipe their card for free parking out of fear that it will trigger something that negatively effects their average daily theoretical within the casino system.
Same thing with free nights or food. If it affects ADT it’s often not worth it if the player is relying on income from future offers.
You admit to drinking beer? I guess that disqualifies you from being on the Supreme Court.Quote: billryanOne spring break, we were doing the pizza hut lunch buffet as our one a day meal, until we discovered a magazine with a coupon for 50 cent Nathan's hot dogs. A dollar saved at lunch was another dollar to be spent on beer.
Quote: CardDolphinHow could swiping and their card for free parking negatively affect their ADT?
"We gave this guy $300 in free parking last month and he only lost $200. Take away his offers!".
Which side is crazier, the gambler who thinks that or casino management who thinks that.
Quote: CardDolphinHow could swiping and their card for free parking negatively affect their ADT?
AP’s will often park at different casino from where they are playing.
If you swipe your card for parking, it can trigger a “day” in some casino’s comp system, and then if you don’t put in any play, it can ding your daily average.
Same if you go to get a comp’d meal, swipe your card at a kiosk, etc.
Quote: CardDolphinBut what if u do put in play, then is it ok to take the free parking?
Oh F*ck yeah. We video poker pros free-park our lambos so hard when we put in play.
One time, I forgot my strategy card in my free-parked lambo and so my host had to go get it for me. I got bored waiting for that dumb trick and so i played Wolf Run cause I didn't want to make an error on VP due to not having my strategy card.
Quote: RogerKintOh F*ck yeah. We video poker pros free-park our lambos so hard when we put in play.
One time, I forgot my strategy card in my free-parked lambo and so my host had to go get it for me. I got bored waiting for that dumb trick and so i played Wolf Run cause I didn't want to make an error on VP due to not having my strategy card.
People here can be real snarky. I try not to be.
