Newest urban electric vehicle

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January 30th, 2012 at 12:24:01 PM permalink

Particularly with tiny cars you don't want to show fat guys getting in and out. It's sort of remedial marketing.

thecesspit

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January 30th, 2012 at 1:04:24 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/gettyimages.com/hiriko-electric-car-launched-european-20120124-081250-600.jpg]

This urban electric vehicle with the motor in the wheels is being readied for production in the Basque country, based on an idea developed at MIT in America. They seemed to have missed the most basic marketing strategy that you show off a new car with beautiful sexy models, not with middle aged white guys.

This vehicle has no doors, and it only goes about 75 miles between charges. Not sure of the top speed. Pretty expensive at 12K euros.

I hope it's got a reverse gear. Some of the early bubble cars that you got in and out through the front didn't have one.... you could get stuck if you parked too close to a wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_car

People who drove them are held in erm, low esteem, in the UK.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

CrystalMath

CrystalMath

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January 30th, 2012 at 1:59:46 PM permalink

I imagine it raining outside, and this guy is about to step on a wet bumper, lose his footing, and crack his head.

I heart Crystal Math.

AZDuffman

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January 30th, 2012 at 2:32:56 PM permalink

Quote: CrystalMath
I imagine it raining outside, and this guy is about to step on a wet bumper, lose his footing, and crack his head.

I'm sure he would loose his footing, but I don't think we would be lucky enough for him to crack his head.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

thecesspit

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January 30th, 2012 at 2:38:56 PM permalink

It's an MIT design. I've seen it before having seen it's "fold up parking" capabilities.

The gentleman getting out of the car is the current European Commission President, Jose Barrano. Glad AZ spotted that.

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

EvenBob

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January 30th, 2012 at 4:01:46 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/gettyimages.com/hiriko-electric-car-launched-european-20120124-081250-600.jpg]

Is this a joke? Who wants a car where you have
to be a Russian gymnist just to get in and out of it?
He's having a problem getting out, imagine getting
in, which is always harder. How about your 40#'s
overweight wife in a skirt? I'd pay to see that...

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

thecesspit

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January 30th, 2012 at 4:27:59 PM permalink

Search hard enough on the internet, and I'm sure you can pay to see for something very similar...

No Joke though, but I have no idea why the automotive collective going for this hasn't had one person go "errr.... guys.... this entrance and exit... erm, it's no good".

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

EvenBob

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January 30th, 2012 at 4:42:06 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
No Joke though, but I have no idea why the automotive collective going for this hasn't had one person go "errr.... guys.... this entrance and exit... erm, it's no good".

Look at the fat guy in the other seat, with the
triple chin. Did they use a crane to get him in
there?

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

pacomartin

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January 30th, 2012 at 5:17:55 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
It's an MIT design. I've seen it before having seen it's "fold up parking" capabilities.

MIT design

I have a feeling it won't work in the USA. Possibly in golf cart communities (kind of the Bentley of golf carts).

P90

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January 30th, 2012 at 5:21:22 PM permalink

Parking this way won't work anywhere.

Should be obvious why.

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thecesspit

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January 30th, 2012 at 5:23:52 PM permalink

I'm not sure it'll work in Europe either.... Notice these designs have gull wing doors. This is the design I've seen before... about a 5-8 years ago?

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

pacomartin

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January 30th, 2012 at 9:40:01 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
I'm not sure it'll work in Europe either.... Notice these designs have gull wing doors. This is the design I've seen before... about a 5-8 years ago?

They are going to introduce them in Malmö, Sweden. Followed by Barcelona, Berlin, Hong Kong, San Francisco and Vitoria-Gasteiz (Basque Country).Supposedly they can top out at 40 mph, but the 75 mile range is very limiting. The price is over $16K before batteries, so they are not really any cheaper than small gasoline cars.

I think they are going to be rented initially, hence the small stackable format so that they can be stored easily near subway stop.

Presumably you will be able to turn them into different locations. Inevitably they will accumulate in one place more than others. I suppose you will have to hire kids with foldable bicycles to spread them around again.

I suppose that the big thing will be when one of them gets crushed by a truck.

EvenBob

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January 30th, 2012 at 11:03:28 PM permalink

I could get in this car, but have doubts about getting out again.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

Ayecarumba

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February 1st, 2012 at 10:48:45 AM permalink

Quote: pacomartin

' rel='nofollow' target='_blank'>http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/gettyimages.com/hiriko-electric-car-launched-european-20120124-081250-600.jpg]

Perhaps it can float? The gasket around the hatch, and step in well are reminicent of a "duck" boat.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

98Clubs

98Clubs

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February 1st, 2012 at 11:15:28 AM permalink

Money maker for Ins. Co.s... the frontal impact crash test results are????

Crash test dummy launcher IMHO over/under 15m.

Some people need to reimagine their thinking.

pacomartin

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February 1st, 2012 at 12:37:28 PM permalink

Quote: 98Clubs
Money maker for Ins. Co.s... the frontal impact crash test results are????

Crash test dummy launcher IMHO over/under 15m.

I'm not sure what the specifications are. Most golf carts are designed to only go 15 mph. I think the federal regulations means that federal rules control everything over 20 mph. I saw some rules for LSV (or Low Speed Vehicles) that would govern things up to 25 mph to allow community electric vehicles.

But these vehicles can go up to 40 mph, which is supposed to be adequate to cover city traffic especially in Europe. I don't know if the federal government has to get involved in the USA.

The default speed limit in San Francisco is 25 mph (unless posted otherwise). So I imagine that these vehicles would have a pretty good range. Filbert and 22nd have parts of the street with grades over 30%. I don't know how these things will do. I imagine going downhill staring through that windshield must feel pretty funny.

Traffic deaths are about 33K per year, down from 54K in the early 1970's. But as common as they are, you know the first person who gets crushed in one of these vehicles will be all over the news.

People will be parking them everywhere.

But it looks like you will be able to add parking towers into places near railroad stations so that you can rent one. These SMART car parking towers exist in about 70 places in Europe.

EvenBob

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February 1st, 2012 at 12:54:27 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
But as common as they are, you know the first person who gets crushed in one of these vehicles will be all over the news.

And it will be an SUV that does it. One
of those driverless SUV's you hear about
on the news. "An SUV ran amok today,
killing 5 pedestrians." No driver, just an
SUV.

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

Nareed

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February 1st, 2012 at 1:09:12 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
These SMART car parking towers exist in about 70 places in Europe.

I thought it was a PEZ dispenser :)

Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

pacomartin

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February 1st, 2012 at 7:04:04 PM permalink

Ideally the electric car should be the vehicle of choice for urban driving, with the gasoline car as the vehicle that you rent for intercity driving.

EvenBob

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February 1st, 2012 at 7:25:50 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin

Ideally the electric car should be the vehicle of choice for urban driving, with the gasoline car as the vehicle that you rent for intercity driving.

Where's the version for obese Americans?

"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."

pacomartin

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February 1st, 2012 at 7:34:27 PM permalink

Quote: EvenBob
Where's the version for obese Americans?

Doors and extreme fat do not go together.

Ayecarumba

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February 2nd, 2012 at 10:46:40 AM permalink

Quote: EvenBob

Where's the version for obese Americans?

Quote: pacomartin

Doors and extreme fat do not go together.

Bwa-ha-ha... I just had YooHoo come out my nose... thanks for that laugher...

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

AZDuffman

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February 2nd, 2012 at 1:10:37 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin

Ideally the electric car should be the vehicle of choice for urban driving, with the gasoline car as the vehicle that you rent for intercity driving.

I've heard this. But the rental cost and inconvenience would be next to impossible to overcome. But why try? Electrics have just a narrow power advantage. Liquid fuel is an advantage everywhere else. You have to be crazy to think electric makes sense for anybody but the person with garage parking in a not snowy area who never drives more than ten miles from home. And their envrioental impact is similar to gasoline cars anyways.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

Ayecarumba

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February 2nd, 2012 at 5:03:38 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: pacomartin
Ideally the electric car should be the vehicle of choice for urban driving, with the gasoline car as the vehicle that you rent for intercity driving.

I've heard this. But the rental cost and inconvenience would be next to impossible to overcome. But why try? Electrics have just a narrow power advantage. Liquid fuel is an advantage everywhere else. You have to be crazy to think electric makes sense for anybody but the person with garage parking in a not snowy area who never drives more than ten miles from home. And their envrioental impact is similar to gasoline cars anyways.

I'm not sure why "rental cost" would be a factor. Folks would keep the electric in the garage and take it for short trips (which is most of the time). Power would not be a factor since most of the in town driving would be in 35 mph or under zones. The Hummer would be reserved for snow days and long hauls.

There is a wait list for All-Electrics now (e.g. Nissan's Leaf), and cities are taking federal money to build an electric infrastructure. It is going to happen.

As for impact on the environment, you have a point, but we have no choice but to move away from petroleum. Next popular fuel: methane. High pressure CNG buses trucks and cars are already in use. Fuel supplies are currently plentiful in the USA. I'd build a station if I could get a permit (and the money to put up a blast proof wall).

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci

AZDuffman

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February 2nd, 2012 at 6:04:22 PM permalink

Quote: Ayecarumba
I'm not sure why "rental cost" would be a factor. Folks would keep the electric in the garage and take it for short trips (which is most of the time). Power would not be a factor since most of the in town driving would be in 35 mph or under zones. The Hummer would be reserved for snow days and long hauls.

Because only so many people will buy an electric because they think they are "saving the planet." When the other 95% shop they will consider cost and utility. Best range now seems to be about 100 miles, too short for most people who will drive that much in a day probably at least twice a month. To say, "well, when you buy this car you will need to have a gasoline car as a backup or else rent one 10-20 times a year" is simply crazy. Why would you buy the electric in this case?

Quote:
There is a wait list for All-Electrics now (e.g. Nissan's Leaf), and cities are taking federal money to build an electric infrastructure. It is going to happen.

This carries minimal weight right now as it is still just meeting demand from the foresaid "save the planet" types. When initial demand is met will come the real test.

Quote:
As for impact on the environment, you have a point, but we have no choice but to move away from petroleum. Next popular fuel: methane. High pressure CNG buses trucks and cars are already in use. Fuel supplies are currently plentiful in the USA. I'd build a station if I could get a permit (and the money to put up a blast proof wall).

Methane/CNG/cellulose alcohol are all good ideas, but we are not going to "get off oil." We have a Saudi Arabia of it in oil sands in Alberta and oil shale in the rockies. No need to waste millions propping up an inferior technology that can't stand on its own.

I've been hearing about how electrics will take the market since 1980. Still waiting.

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pacomartin

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February 2nd, 2012 at 6:14:35 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Quote: pacomartin

Ideally the electric car should be the vehicle of choice for urban driving, with the gasoline car as the vehicle that you rent for intercity driving.

I've heard this. But the rental cost and inconvenience would be next to impossible to overcome. But why try? Electrics have just a narrow power advantage. Liquid fuel is an advantage everywhere else. You have to be crazy to think electric makes sense for anybody but the person with garage parking in a not snowy area who never drives more than ten miles from home. And their envrioental impact is similar to gasoline cars anyways.

Noise and air pollution, parking space, limited urban traffic deaths, etc.

Some European cities have large pedestrian friendly spaces, which can be maintained with electric vehicles.

San Francisco is a 7 mile by 7 mile city. Most people who live there could traverse the city by electric vehicle. Commuters would have to arrive by public transportation, or if they drive they would have a limited footprint of where they can go.

AZDuffman

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February 3rd, 2012 at 2:46:46 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
Noise and air pollution, parking space, limited urban traffic deaths, etc.

In noise electrics are indeed almost totally silent. Air pollution not much difference as the power plant just makes it in one place and gasoline powered cars are cleaner than ever. Parking space no difference, urban traffic deaths no difference and maybe even a disadvantage to the electrics which the blind cannot hear, nor anyone else for that matter.

Quote:
Some European cities have large pedestrian friendly spaces, which can be maintained with electric vehicles.

I seriously don't get your point on this. Either it is for pedestrians or you let vehicles in. Once you let cars into a square like that what does it matter what the cars run on?

Quote:
San Francisco is a 7 mile by 7 mile city. Most people who live there could traverse the city by electric vehicle. Commuters would have to arrive by public transportation, or if they drive they would have a limited footprint of where they can go.

In a city like SF or NY you would have to be crazy to drive any car in the city. SF and NY have pretty good public transportation in place you can just hop onboard, as well as cabs if you want something more private. Downtown Pittsburgh is also very compact and no same person would move their car once it is parked.

I will repeat my statement on electrics and that is why would a person buy something that takes so much lonnger to charge and costs so much more to buy?

Look at it another way. At most it takes me 10 minutes to fuel my car which gives me a range of 300 miles, or 4 hours at highway speeds. So for a minute of fueling I can go 24 minutes of driving. The electric takes 6-8 hours to charge, I will say just 6. It goes 100-150 miles on a charge, I will concede the whole 150. So the electric takes 360 minutes of "refueling" to drive just over 120 minutes! 24:1 fueling to drive the gas vs 1:3 on the electric.

Why would a rational consumer do that?

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

thecesspit

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February 3rd, 2012 at 3:14:28 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
We have a Saudi Arabia of it in oil sands in Alberta and oil shale in the rockies...

Hey that's Canadian Oil, buster... :)

"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829

P90

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February 3rd, 2012 at 3:58:21 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
So the electric takes 360 minutes of "refueling" to drive just over 120 minutes! 24:1 fueling to drive the gas vs 1:3 on the electric.
Why would a rational consumer do that?

This ratio is hardly of any practical significance, it's just a bit of trivia for consumer purposes. Maybe it would matter if you were renting cars for hour-long drives, like operating a track with rental vehicles. But you don't calculate the ratio of charging time to use time for your cell phone, just plug it in for the night.
Same way with an urban car, if you don't drive more than 100-150 miles a day, it doesn't matter. If you do, in a city, you're most likely a commercial driver.

In the largest cities, urban pollution and smog are a serious issue. But it's indeed better addressed through public transportation, which also helps solve congestion. The car is a very useful invention, but it's been somewhat overused in US.

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pacomartin

The EU will try to ban gasoline cars in cities by 2050

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February 3rd, 2012 at 4:00:03 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
I will repeat my statement on electrics and that is why would a person buy something that takes so much lonnger to charge and costs so much more to buy?

The Hiriko will charge in about 15 minutes. The car's lithium-ion batteries are placed low in the floor of the car make the center of gravity low. In folded mode, it will be about the width of a standard automobile. It can spin so parking is relatively easy. If you imagine a standard parallel city parking space, you can think of three Hiriko all facing the sidewalk so that the driver can get out onto the sidewalk.You could probably drag it a few feet easier than pushing a car.

It is expensive. A Hiriku will be about $16.4K and can seat 2
It is 98.4" long and will fold to roughly 65"; weight is 1100 lbs.
Horsepower: ??
Turning circle: spin
Range in miles (cty): 75 mi.
Maximum speed of 31 mph (40 mph in other sources)

A Ford Fiesta starts at $13.2K and can seat 4.
67.8"by 173.6" by 58.0" high by 2578 lbs.
Horsepower: 120 hp @ 6350 rpm
Turning circle: 34.4 ft.
Fuel tank capacity: 12.0 gal.
Range in miles (cty/hwy): 348.0/456.0 mi.
EPA mileage est. (cty/hwy): 29/38 mpg

Quote: AZDuffman
Why would a rational consumer do that?

P90

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February 3rd, 2012 at 4:05:39 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
The Hiriko will charge in about 15 minutes. The car's lithium-ion batteries are placed low in the floor of the car make the center of gravity low.
It is expensive. A Hiriku will be about $16.4K and can seat 2

And lithiums last what in a tropical climate - about 5 years?

We need either a battery technology that can fill the gap between Ni-Cd/Ni-MH and Li-Ion, or a way to either use less power or replenish it easy enough that either the weight of nickels or the cost of lithiums becomes acceptable.

In any case, an electric vehicle based economy isn't going to go far without a significant shift towards nuclear power or another low-pollution, high-output source. Cheap and clean energy is the key to everything here. It reduces the cost of aluminum, required for lightweight vehicles, helps a bit with lithium batteries, and critically power itself, allowing for more charging options with less oversight.

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AZDuffman

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February 3rd, 2012 at 6:17:53 PM permalink

Quote: P90
This ratio is hardly of any practical significance, it's just a bit of trivia for consumer purposes. Maybe it would matter if you were renting cars for hour-long drives, like operating a track with rental vehicles. But you don't calculate the ratio of charging time to use time for your cell phone, just plug it in for the night.
Same way with an urban car, if you don't drive more than 100-150 miles a day, it doesn't matter. If you do, in a city, you're most likely a commercial driver.

You might not travel 100+ miles per day, but I would wager most people will travel that much 2-4 times per month if not more. And that is what makes electrics impractical for most of the population. And if you live in an area that gets snow, you are in real trouble. Electrics have tires with low rolling resistance to maximize range. These tires are terrible in the snow (my Hyundai drove right around a Prius going up a hill and my tires were spinning.) Range is killed in that case. Or if you have a 25+ mile commute and work different shifts. Not enough time to charge? Better like walking. Come home near empty and get a call from a relative or friend needs help and need to go back out, same thing.

Quote:
In the largest cities, urban pollution and smog are a serious issue. But it's indeed better addressed through public transportation, which also helps solve congestion. The car is a very useful invention, but it's been somewhat overused in US.

Cars actually make more sense than public transportation for most people. Most people do not commute from and to places with dense enough population of residences or businesses to be run profitably.

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AZDuffman

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February 3rd, 2012 at 6:19:06 PM permalink

Quote: thecesspit
Hey that's Canadian Oil, buster... :)

We will be happy to trade you for rights to broadcast "American Idol." :-)

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

AZDuffman

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February 3rd, 2012 at 6:27:17 PM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
The Hiriko will charge in about 15 minutes. The car's lithium-ion batteries are placed low in the floor of the car make the center of gravity low. In folded mode, it will be about the width of a standard automobile. It can spin so parking is relatively easy. If you imagine a standard parallel city parking space, you can think of three Hiriko all facing the sidewalk so that the driver can get out onto the sidewalk.You could probably drag it a few feet easier than pushing a car.

It is expensive. A Hiriku will be about $16.4K and can seat 2
It is 98.4" long and will fold to roughly 65"; weight is 1100 lbs.
Horsepower: ??
Turning circle: spin
Range in miles (cty): 75 mi.
Maximum speed of 31 mph (40 mph in other sources)

A Ford Fiesta starts at $13.2K and can seat 4.
67.8"by 173.6" by 58.0" high by 2578 lbs.
Horsepower: 120 hp @ 6350 rpm
Turning circle: 34.4 ft.
Fuel tank capacity: 12.0 gal.
Range in miles (cty/hwy): 348.0/456.0 mi.
EPA mileage est. (cty/hwy): 29/38 mpg

You are comparing a virtual golf cart with a subcompact car. And the golf cart costs more and does less.

The EU will try to ban gasoline cars in cities by 2050

European nations have always been big on restricting personal freedoms. Like California will yet again learn, you cannot simply mandate so many electric cars be sold and then that number of people will buy them. Europe is heading into a demographic crisis so bad such that by 2050 gasoline cars will be well down on their list of problems.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

98Clubs

98Clubs

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February 3rd, 2012 at 6:34:41 PM permalink

There are 2 smart cars around town here in Ct that I see regularly. Cute little things not meant for divided multi-lane roads. My Golf TDi gets the same City Mi/Gal about 38. But being a mini car as opposed to a micro car, I can still zoom the Interstates at 70 Mi/Hr and get 55-60 Mi/Gal with a half-dozen or so air bags (no not passengers... lol). This would be Clean Diesel fuel (ULSD).

Amazing that we Americans dont embrace the better torque for hills, and overall better fuel effeciency of the Cleaned up Diesel Fuel. Many local gas stations sell it for all those pickup trucks and Delivery vans, so no "truck-stop" paranoia. IIRC in the early 80'a Ford, Chevy and Toyota tried using non-turbo versions... slow and smoky (of course lower design quality too).

EU to ban gasoline cars. Take out all the additives first and keep the carbon chain at 8, with a 5-chain carbon as a solvent... like the original blends. The improvements in computerization of timing and duration should make this a no-brainer. The US has reinvestigated the earlier formulations (w/o TEPb) and discovered no need for oxygenation. But it does need an oxygenated solvent to stay more liquid at low temps. Does anyone remember "white gasoline"?, best stuff going, burns clean, most stuff today only partially burns. I remember a College science experiment involving teaspoons of gasoline. White gas an absolute winner, very little residue/unburnt fuel.

Some people need to reimagine their thinking.

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Face

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February 3rd, 2012 at 6:40:59 PM permalink

Quote: 98Clubs
Amazing that we Americans dont embrace the better torque for hills, and overall better fuel effeciency of the Cleaned up Diesel Fuel.

More and more diesel racing outfits are coming up. When Audi brought it to the 24 of LeMans, I chuckled. Fast forward a few years and they're a beast. The Jetta TDi cup has some of the best racing in the nation, all in 40mpg compact diesels. Let it sink into the psyche, diesel will make a run once people realize "diesel" doesn't necessarily equal "canal boat".

If only they could change the smell =/

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98Clubs

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February 3rd, 2012 at 7:10:32 PM permalink

Yeaaaa, 50+ Cetane racing, who knew wax is such a good fuel? No really, powerful stuff approaching jet fuel. Lotsa torque for precise throttle modulation around corners and stuff like that.For us daily drivers, though, MB, BMW and Audi has to stop requesting 46-48 Cetane, the stuff burns like gas, and gels at 5C (40F). Nothing wrong with good ol 42-44 Cetane.

I love the smell of diesel in the morning ;o)

Some people need to reimagine their thinking.

AZDuffman

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February 3rd, 2012 at 7:22:45 PM permalink

Quote: 98Clubs
Amazing that we Americans dont embrace the better torque for hills, and overall better fuel effeciency of the Cleaned up Diesel Fuel. Many local gas stations sell it for all those pickup trucks and Delivery vans, so no "truck-stop" paranoia. IIRC in the early 80'a Ford, Chevy and Toyota tried using non-turbo versions... slow and smoky (of course lower design quality too).

I don't remember Ford but GM had a diesel version of the Chevy 350 CID engine, a crappy conversion not much more sophisticated than an independent builder could do. People insisted they "made it bad" to kill the diesel market in the USA. True or not, it killed the diesel market in the USA for 25 years. Fell apart fast as the block was not strong enough and really bad at starting in the cold, a bigger problem then before so many more people moved to the sunbelt.

My dad was a diesel mechanic for years, built (rebuilt) Detroit Diesel Engines for years and always insisted diesels were just as good as gasoline *if* you had a good diesel and not the crap that the automakers put in their cars. Back then even the European makes that had diesels were crappy, it just was not ready for primetime.

I don't see diesels catching on big in the USA. We seem to have developed a relationship with Europe where we sell them auto-diesel and they sell us unleaded. Americans seem to dislike paying more upfront for the diesel and more per gallon even if you get better mileage. This could change if we get running the things on corn oil figured out, use the corn for that which is probably more efficient than making it to ethanol. Also lets you use the corn oil for cooking first.

I maintain that if we could get a gasoline/diesel that could seamlessly switch to natural gas (CNG) and propoane then we would have something good. The present and near (50 yrs) future still seems to be with liquid fuels.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others

P90

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February 3rd, 2012 at 7:23:50 PM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
Or if you have a 25+ mile commute and work different shifts.

100-150 miles is enough for two shifts a day, covering the worst-case scenario. How large a % of jobs even has shifts anyway? And then only counting ones worth commuting 25 miles each way - you aren't doing that for Burger King.
No one's expecting EV to replace everything else, especially not today.

Quote: AZDuffman
Not enough time to charge? Better like walking. Come home near empty and get a call from a relative or friend needs help and need to go back out, same thing.

There is an average of 2.28 vehicles in each household in US. In a typical suburban setting there are about 10 homes very close to you, for a total of 25 vehicles. Unless you are particularly asocial, more than half, let's say 6/10, are likely to be willing to lend you their car, bringing the total to 16 available vehicles, or 15 if we exclude yours.

The average American spends about 4.5 hours per day watching TV at home, another 3 hours doing household activities and eating, with other activities adding up to a total of about 9-10.5 hours per day at home, not including sleeping, or 40%.
That arrives at an average of 15*0.4=6 vehicles available. If the events were independent (they aren't, but for simplicity), the probability that no vehicle is available would be 0.6^15=0.00047, or 0.05%.

Adding a 10% probability that the vehicle is discharged, it's availability of 0.36, for a risk of 0.125%. Adding a 90% availability for your vehicle, this has 8077 to 1 odds of occurring, for an average of 1 day in 22 years when no vehicle is available. That's hardly a deal-breaker. However simplified this estimate is.

Quote: AZDuffman
Cars actually make more sense than public transportation for most people. Most people do not commute from and to places with dense enough population of residences or businesses to be run profitably.

I'm not so sure. What is the current ratio of urban to suburban+rural population in US?

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Doc

Doc

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February 3rd, 2012 at 7:40:01 PM permalink

Quote: 98Clubs
I love the smell of diesel in the morning ;o)

Is that a reference to a Apocalypse Now? Or am I just showing my age?

pacomartin

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February 3rd, 2012 at 8:31:38 PM permalink

Quote: P90I
'm not so sure. What is the current ratio of urban to suburban+rural population in US?

The census bureau defines metropolitan statistical areas to encompass 83.6% of the population. But that is probably much too broad of a definition of urban for your question.

Looking at counties (excluding Alaska),
17.5% of the population lives on 0.5% of the land
26% of the population lives on 1% of the land ,
36% lives on 2% and
40% lives on 3%.

The 0.5% of the land containing 17.5% of the population (54 million) would be 30 most densely populated counties in the country (NYC boroughs are also counties):

New York County New York
Kings County New York
Bronx County New York
Queens County New York
San Francisco County California
Hudson County New Jersey
Suffolk County Massachusetts
Philadelphia County Pennsylvania
Baltimore City Maryland
Essex County New Jersey
Cook County Illinois
Nassau County New York
Milwaukee County Wisconsin
Bergen County New Jersey
Orange County California
Pinellas County Florida
Wayne County Michigan
Cuyahoga County Ohio
DuPage County Illinois
Fairfax County Virginia
Dallas County Texas
Middlesex County New Jersey
DeKalb County Georgia
Los Angeles County California
Harris County Texas
Marion County Indiana
Westchester County New York
Franklin County Ohio
Tarrant County Texas
Hennepin County Minnesota

The original target destinations of the car are San Francisco CA and Suffolk County MA (i.e. Boston).

pacomartin

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February 3rd, 2012 at 10:26:13 PM permalink

After several years of doubling the size of the Congestion Charging Zone in London, the city is returning to the original boundaries on the Eastern end. Electric Vehicles are exempt from the Congestion zone charge (which is about $12 a day).

AZDuffman

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February 4th, 2012 at 7:19:42 AM permalink

Quote: P90
100-150 miles is enough for two shifts a day, covering the worst-case scenario. How large a % of jobs even has shifts anyway? And then only counting ones worth commuting 25 miles each way - you aren't doing that for Burger King.

I don't know about you but I don't work at Burger King. I do know plenty of people, I am one myself, that have a "side" job ore two. My side job can require over 100 miles round trip and it requires it after the 30 mile trip to the main job. Mine is on the high side of miles driven, but most of the others I know would require a good cusion over the 100-150 mile range EVs offer as many is the night you get home at midnight and have to leave at 6:00 AM.

Quote:
There is an average of 2.28 vehicles in each household in US. In a typical suburban setting there are about 10 homes very close to you, for a total of 25 vehicles. Unless you are particularly asocial, more than half, let's say 6/10, are likely to be willing to lend you their car, bringing the total to 16 available vehicles, or 15 if we exclude yours.

This is bordering on absurd. How often have you "borrowed" a nbeighbors car when yours broke down? How often have you lent yours out? My guess is "never or almost never." It isn't going to happen. Here is what will happen. You will go to your neighbor's house and ask to borrow one of their 2.28 vehicles. They will say, "sorry, but I have to go to work/store/wherever later." Aside from the fact that they probably do need to do this factr is most people simply never want someone else to be using their car.

I will repeat it again, the simple problem is EVs ignore the fact that energy does not like to be stored. Until this is overcome and a battery is developed that can be charged in less than 10 minutes to give a range of over 300 miles; and said battery does not take up half the available storage space in the car while not leaking or catching on fire; until this happens, EVs are going nowhere.

And I don't see any of that happening for 100+ years, if even then. Something else will catch on first-either another liquid fuel or even a suitcase-sized nuclear charged device sealed and delivering power forever. The first can happen rather fast, the later would also take 100 years.

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pacomartin

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February 4th, 2012 at 8:36:01 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman

I will repeat it again, the simple problem is EVs ignore the fact that energy does not like to be stored. Until this is overcome and a battery is developed that can be charged in less than 10 minutes to give a range of over 300 miles; and said battery does not take up half the available storage space in the car while not leaking or catching on fire; until this happens, EVs are going nowhere.

And I don't see any of that happening for 100+ years, if even then. Something else will catch on first-either another liquid fuel or even a suitcase-sized nuclear charged device sealed and delivering power forever. The first can happen rather fast, the later would also take 100 years.

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) original goal was enacted in 1990, was to require 10 percent of the nearly 1 million new vehicle sales in the state to be all-electric by 2003. For California to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 80 percent of 1990 level by 2050, it must have nearly 400,000 zero emission vehicles on the road by 2020, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists.

If your point is that someday the EV will never be a serious challenge to gasoline car in the USA, then I would agree with you. But it could still be a presence in some of our larger denser cities.

AZDuffman

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February 4th, 2012 at 8:53:36 AM permalink

Quote: pacomartin
The California Air Resources Board (CARB) original goal was enacted in 1990, was to require 10 percent of the nearly 1 million new vehicle sales in the state to be all-electric by 2003. For California to reduce greenhouse gas emissions to 80 percent of 1990 level by 2050, it must have nearly 400,000 zero emission vehicles on the road by 2020, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists.

If your point is that someday the EV will never be a serious challenge to gasoline car in the USA, then I would agree with you. But it could still be a presence in some of our larger denser cities.

And California had to back off of this when it realized you cannot force people to buy what they do not want. California is trying the same nonsense again now, with what I predict will be similar results. Hopefully "greenhouse gasses" will soon be realized to be the fraud that they are and we can stop the crazieness.

In golf-cart commuinities EVs may have a place, but even then the development cost will not be repaid in the form of profits. Just use golf carts.

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pacomartin

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February 4th, 2012 at 10:37:32 AM permalink

Quote: AZDuffman
In golf-cart commuinities EVs may have a place, but even then the development cost will not be repaid in the form of profits. Just use golf carts.

These Hiriko vehicles are a lot more expensive than most golf courses. Some people spend a lot of money on spiffed out golf carts because there is always some market for prestige. But I assume most golf cart trails are limited to 15-20 mph. The ability of the Hiriko to acheive 30-40 mph, and to be able to park in an 8' by 8' square is not necessary.

I imagine they might be helpful to some people who want to leave the golf cart trails and go on city streets.

Fancy golf cart

What really makes more sense is to have a vehicle for urban driving that costs less than $4K. Then it might actually make sense to have a second vehicle for when you want to go somewhere 5 miles away to pick up groceries or to go to a bar.

P90