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pacomartin
pacomartin
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October 14th, 2011 at 3:29:24 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

"Equivocado" means wrong as in mistaken. I don't think there's a word for morally wrong, but there isn't one in English, either.



Well I think that wrong does handle both meanings. As an adjective; "I took a wrong turn" or "That is the wrong way to peel a banana" the word has no moral implications, but when we use it as a verb "I wronged you" or "Two wrongs don't make a right" or in idioms like "go wrong" or "do wrong" then the word has strong moral implications.

Injustice or "injusto" is pretty clear, but the word is not a verb. We must say "It's an injustice" or "Es injusto".

Quote: Wizard

Nareed, I would have never got your translation of that sentence. After looking it up I see that "hacer trampas" is an idiom for cheat. I think I deserve only a mild castigo for that one, for how would anyone but a fluent speaker know that?



I noticed that I got an idiom from the other native Spanish speaker when I asked him the same question on a forum. He used "de hacer chuleta".

But we discussed the word cheat in an earlier post. The verb in English is also idiomatic and would not be recognized by a speaker of a Romance language.

The word "escheat" was a Norman legal term for revision of property to the state when the owner dies without heirs. So much property got stolen in these transactions (especially after the Black Death killed most of the population) that the word in English evolved into "cheat" and assumed it's present meaning.
Nareed
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October 14th, 2011 at 6:34:49 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

But we discussed the word cheat in an earlier post. The verb in English is also idiomatic and would not be recognized by a speaker of a Romance language.



Poppycock (and if that's not idiomatic, it should be). I understood the various forms of cheat and to cheat at once.

The word that puzzled me for a long time was "swear."

At a summer camp in Canada we had a puny radio station (it was fun). When the rules were laid out, about the most important one was "Absolutely no swearing." I couldn't understand that. What would be the harm in affirming an oath, or making a solemn promise, on the air? At least when I asked, the counselor got a good laugh :)
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pacomartin
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October 14th, 2011 at 6:58:04 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Poppycock (and if that's not idiomatic, it should be). I understood the various forms of cheat and to cheat at once.



I meant a native speaker of a Romance language who does not know Englishy would automatically recognize cognates.

accelerate acelerar
accentuate acentuar
aggregate agregar
associate asociar
demonstrate demostrar
estimate estimar
exaggerate exagerar
negotiate negociar
operate operar
participate participar
terminate terminar

Cheat is an idiomatic meaning of a Latin word, unique to English. It comes from the Latin word *excadere which leads to caer(se) in Spanish. The context of "cheating" is not inherent to the word.

poppycock is probably from Dutch dialect "pappekak" which literally means "soft dung".
Wizard
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October 14th, 2011 at 9:43:39 AM permalink
Sorry to interrupt the current conversation but it is a día nuevo.

Fecha: 14 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: Hermosa


It was not long ago that I thought bella, bonita y hermosa meant the same thing, beautiful/pretty. A few months ago I was using my hombre de piscinas as a victim to suffer my Español horrible. I was trying to describe a pretty girl and used the word hermosa. So he corrected me and said to be very careful in calling a woman that word, because it also means gorda (fat).

That was the first I ever heard of this usage of hermosa. So the next time I bounced this off my Spanish tutor and she said "poppycock." Well, not exactly that word, but I thought Nareed would appreciate the reference. She said it simply means beautiful and fat has nothing to do with it.

So yesterday I ran into my pool guy again and told her what my tutor said, and he flat out said she was wrong. Being the terrible student that I am I asked if he would explain it to her over the phone. He agreed, so I tried calling her, and she happened to pick up. What followed was a 15-20 minute argument about the meaning of the word. It was in Spanish but I could make out most of it. My pool guy kept telling her to look it up in the diccionario. I could tell that my tutor was using an elevated tone of voice, and was probably insulted that a pool cleaner from Nicaragua was challenging an educated Spanish teacher from Argentina.

However, it looks to me like my pool cleaner was right. Here is what it says for hermoso/a at WordReference.com (Diccionario de la lengua española) says:

hermoso, sa
1. adj. Que resulta proporcionado y bello a los sentidos:
rostro hermoso;
hermosa tarde.
2. Noble o bello moralmente:
es muy hermoso que la hayas cuidado.
3. col. Grande, amplio:
la cama es bastante hermosa para los dos.
4. col. Robusto, saludable:
la niña está ya muy hermosa.

Note definition #3. What do you guys think? Who was right?

By the way, I sent an apology to my tutor for putting her on the spot like that, and obviously getting her upset, but she has not responded to it. I wonder if she is mad. She always gets a little insulted when I quote anybody who challenges anything she says, but that is just the kind of troublemaker I can be.
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Alan
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October 14th, 2011 at 10:01:20 AM permalink
Challenging your tutor doesn't seem healthy for your relationship with her. You don't have a third or fourth party to ask before you ask her? Of course you always have the forum.

My expert is off today, but she's usually curious as to what the word of the day is. I'll ask her on Monday.
Wizard
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October 14th, 2011 at 10:21:47 AM permalink
Quote: Alan

Challenging your tutor doesn't seem healthy for your relationship with her. You don't have a third or fourth party to ask before you ask her? Of course you always have the forum.



I don't disagree. Personally I revel in a good debate but that doesn't mean she feels the same way.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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October 14th, 2011 at 10:52:12 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

A few months ago I was using my hombre de piscinas as a victim to suffer my Español horrible.



There really is no Spanish term for pool guy. If you must use one, it would be "el tipo de la alberca" or "el muchacho de la alberca" or even "el señor de la alberca." The word "hombre" isn't used that way. it's not wrong, it just isn't used that way.

Quote:

I was trying to describe a pretty girl and used the word hermosa. So he corrected me and said to be very careful in calling a woman that word, because it also means gorda (fat).



Long reply short: aside from words with many multiple meanings, anything past the second definition in the dictionary ought to be ignored, unless it's used often taht way. In other words your tutor is right and the pool guy is wrong, even if the dictionary backs him up.

Quote:

3. col. Grande, amplio:
la cama es bastante hermosa para los dos.
4. col. Robusto, saludable:
la niña está ya muy hermosa.



Never heard such meanings used, nor did I know they existed.
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Wizard
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October 14th, 2011 at 11:12:31 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

In other words your tutor is right and the pool guy is wrong, even if the dictionary backs him up.



Thanks. So the score is now:

Maestra: 1
El muchacho de la piscina: 0

By the way, "El muchacho de la alberca" is quite a mouthful. Why wouldn't someone say limpiador de piscinas?

Speaking of the word alberca, my tutor cringes every time I use it. She will always correct me saying the proper word in Spanish is piscina, but would admit that they do say alberca in Mexico, and the south-west U.S. I think we may have gone through that one before.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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October 14th, 2011 at 12:35:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

By the way, "El muchacho de la alberca" is quite a mouthful. Why wouldn't someone say limpiador de piscinas?



You could. But it's "el limpiador de albercas." In popular usage in Mexico, too, you'd say "el que limpia la alberca," I don't know why.

Quote:

Speaking of the word alberca, my tutor cringes every time I use it. She will always correct me saying the proper word in Spanish is piscina, but would admit that they do say alberca in Mexico, and the south-west U.S. I think we may have gone through that one before.



We have. Short answer is people use the word they're acustomed to. Shorter asnwer: we're right, they're wrong. Piscina sounds like something for sale at a fishmonger's, too, not a nice place to swim in clean water.
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pacomartin
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October 14th, 2011 at 12:37:43 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


hermoso, sa
3. col. Grande, amplio: la cama es bastante hermosa para los dos.
4. col. Robusto, saludable: la niña está ya muy hermosa.

Note definition #3. What do you guys think? Who was right?

By the way, I sent an apology to my tutor for putting her on the spot like that, and obviously getting her upset, but she has not responded to it. I wonder if she is mad. She always gets a little insulted when I quote anybody who challenges anything she says, but that is just the kind of troublemaker I can be.



Definition #4 is in the RAE, but it only applies to children. I am told that beautiful child in Latino culture (even a girl) is robust and sturdy with thick legs. They get skinnier when they are older.

I can't find definition #3 in the DRAE or in any urban dictionary or slang book. It might be a uniquely Nicaraguan meaning.

Most Argentines are very proud of the Spanish they speak, and consider it higher quality than many of the other dialects. Face it, you have a personality that digs at things. I also had an Argentine teacher for a while in San Diego. She also spent a great deal of time criticizing the Spanish she heard in the city.

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