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Wizard
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Wizard
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October 3rd, 2011 at 10:55:27 PM permalink
Fecha: 4 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: PORTAR


According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:

1. To carry/bring
2. To behave

I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know. The context I discovered this word meant behave.

Ejemplos time.

No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.

Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift. (Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.) I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.
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pacomartin
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October 4th, 2011 at 12:33:57 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 4 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: PORTAR


According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:

1. To carry/bring
2. To behave

I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know. The context I discovered this word meant behave.

Ejemplos time.

No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.

Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift. (Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.) I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.



According to RAE, the sense of carry or bring as a synonym to "llevar" is now antiquated. Currently it is only used when speaking to a dog, when you want him to return with a bird or other game.

The primary means of use know is as a reflexive verb, portarse which would make both your examples incorrect since you are not using indirect pronouns.
Examples given in the dictionary are:
(1) Portarse mal. "To misbehave"
(2) Se portó como un hombre. "He behaved like a man"
(3) Me porté con frialdad. "I behaved coldly"

Examples (2) and (3) are in the pretérito tense, meaning the action was completed in the past.

The literal translation of the third example would be "I behaved with frigidity", but in English the word is almost always associated with "sexual indifference". To the best of my knowledge it is not used that way in Spanish (Nareed will have to answer).

"Cold" is from Anglo Saxon etymology, and not Latin.

I believe "Si porto mal" should be "Si comporton mal" .
Nareed
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October 4th, 2011 at 6:44:47 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 4 de Octobre, 2011
Palabra: PORTAR


According to the dictionary, portar has two meanings:

1. To carry/bring
2. To behave

I don't know how the carry/bring usage differs from llevar, but would be interested to know.



"portar" = "carry"
"llevar" = "take"
traer = bring

Portar also means specificlaly to carry something with you for your own use. It isn't used much. You hear it more often in crime news regarding weapons and drugs.

For example:

Fue arrestado por portación ilegal de armas = he was arrested for illegaly carrying a weapon
Llévate dinero para el cine = Take along money for the movies
Traeme el periódico de hoy = bring me today's newspaper

Quote:

The context I discovered this word meant behave.



That too.

Quote:

No portas como un mono = Don't behave like a monkey.



No TE portES como un mono.

Quote:

Si porto mal, Santa Claus no me da un regalo. = If I behave badly, Santa Claus won't give me a gift.



Si ME porto mal, Santa Claus no me DARÁ un regalo

Quote:

(Tengo mucho dudas sobre este uno.)



Tengo muchAS dudas sobre este ÚLTIMO :)

Quote:

I desperately want to add mente to mal, but I think I can only do that to verbs.



Good choice. As you see the problem lay elsewhere. But you're right, "malMENTE" is wrong. The word "malAmente" is soemtiems used, but I don't know if it even exists, and in any case it has another meaning. Since it's used almost only as a sentence fragment by itslef, I think it's way wrong.
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Nareed
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October 4th, 2011 at 6:46:24 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The literal translation of the third example would be "I behaved with frigidity", but in English the word is almost always associated with "sexual indifference". To the best of my knowledge it is not used that way in Spanish (Nareed will have to answer).



Look up "frigidez"
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Wizard
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Wizard
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October 4th, 2011 at 7:18:36 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No TE portES como un mono.
Si ME porto mal, Santa Claus no me DARÁ un regalo.



Do you agree with Paco that the verb is reflexive? If so, shouldn't it be portarse?
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Nareed
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October 4th, 2011 at 7:38:27 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Do you agree with Paco that the verb is reflexive? If so, shouldn't it be portarse?



I don't know what a refelxive verb is.

That said, "portarse" makes no sense in the example you chose. Try these:

"Los alumnos deben portarse bien si quieren permanecer en el salón" = "Students must behave well if they want to stay in the classroom"
"Tienes que portarte bien porque lo digo yo" = "you must behave well beacuse I say so." (Parents...)

I'm unsure how Santa Claus is spelled in Spanish. I think they go with Clos, rather than Claus, but I'm not sure.
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pacomartin
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October 4th, 2011 at 8:26:03 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I don't know what a refelxive verb is.



Spanish translations of "to reflect" is the cognate "reflejar", and reflexive is "reflexivo", but traditionally they are referred to in the grammar of a romance language as pronomial verbs. But as we established Nareed does not always know grammatical term, any more than most fluent English speakers know grammatical terms.

In Spanish classes taught to English speakers they are always taught as two separate verbs to underscore the times when the meaning changes when the verb is used in the reflexive sense. For instance "caer" and "caerse" are always taught as two different verbs.

But the RAE does not treat them as two different verbs. It merely lists "caerse" as a pronominal definition of "caer".

The RAE definition of verbo pronominal is (masculine) Gramática: El que se construye en todas sus formas con un pronombre átono que concuerda con el sujeto y que no desempeña ninguna función sintáctica oracional. Algunos verbos son exclusivamente pronominales, como "arrepentirse", y otros adoptan determinados matices significativos o expresivos en las formas reflexivas; por ejemplo, caer o morir.

Regardless, every sentence that Nareed comes up with uses the Direct object pronouns (pronombres de complemento directo)
me (me) - plural nos (us)
te (you)
lo (him, you, it) - plural los (them, you)
la (her, you, it) - plural las (them, you)
se (himself/herself/yourself/themselves/yourselves)
Nareed
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October 4th, 2011 at 12:27:14 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

But as we established Nareed does not always know grammatical term, any more than most fluent English speakers know grammatical terms.



I understood that. A much safer assumption is "Nareed never knows any grammatical term." it's not entriely tru, but it would save us all a lot of trouble.

Quote:

In Spanish classes taught to English speakers they are always taught as two separate verbs to underscore the times when the meaning changes when the verb is used in the reflexive sense. For instance "caer" and "caerse" are always taught as two different verbs.



I don't knwo what your point is, but caer and caerse are the same verb. Actually caer (to fall) is the verb, while caerse is an instance of that action. You can say something like "Me dejé caer" = "I let myself fall" or "Lo ví caerse" = "I saw him fall." but as you see it's the same action both times.

Quote:

The RAE definition of verbo pronominal is



It's unusual to find a highly technical definition in the dictionary.

Quote:

El que se construye en todas sus formas con un pronombre átono



Now, that may just be Spaniard Spanish being difficult, but "átono" to me means "toneless" or "lacking a tone" or even "tone-deaf." In all instances I fail to see that it applies to grammar at all!

Quote:

Regardless, every sentence that Nareed comes up with uses the Direct object pronouns (pronombres de complemento directo)
me (me) - plural nos (us)
te (you)
lo (him, you, it) - plural los (them, you)
la (her, you, it) - plural las (them, you)
se (himself/herself/yourself/themselves/yourselves)



See the post you replied to.
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pacomartin
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October 4th, 2011 at 4:21:04 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I don't knwo what your point is, but caer and caerse are the same verb. Actually caer (to fall) is the verb, while caerse is an instance of that action. You can say something like "Me dejé caer" = "I let myself fall" or "Lo ví caerse" = "I saw him fall." but as you see it's the same action both times.



I was trying to explain to you why the Wizard asked the question: If so, shouldn't it be portarse?

In a beginning Spanish class for English speakers, all of the books teach the basic transitive verb and the reflexive verb as two different verbs. The reason is that in many cases the equivalent English verb used for translation is different (even if the student can tell that the underlying action is the same). For example:
levantar = "to lift"; levantarse = "to stand up"
abrir = "to open"; abrirse = "to confide"
acordar = "to agree"; acordarse="to remember"
llevar = "to carry"; llevarse = "to take away"
poner = "to put"; ponerse = "to wear"
acusar = "to accuse"; acusarse = "to confess"

The English student realizes that "confession" is sort of like "accusing yourself" or "standing up" is like "lifting yourself up", but those expressions are abnormal English. In other cases the translated English verb is the same:
callar = "to be quiet"; callarse = "to become quiet"
caer = "to fall"; caerse="to fall down"
ir = "to go"; irse = "to go away"

In other cases there is often an unpredicted translation
salir= "to leave"; salirse = "to leave unexpectedly" or "to leak"
Nareed
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October 4th, 2011 at 5:30:08 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In a beginning Spanish class for English speakers, all of the books teach the basic transitive verb and the reflexive verb as two different verbs. The reason is that in many cases the equivalent English verb used for translation is different (even if the student can tell that the underlying action is the same). For example:
abrir = "to open"; abrirse = "to confide"
acusar = "to accuse"; acusarse = "to confess"



I haven't said this in a while, and I think I never said it here: Sue that techer!


Abrirse = to open up
To Confess = Confesar, confesarse. And this applies to both a police or a church confession.

Quote:

In other cases there is often an unpredicted translation
salir= "to leave"; salirse = "to leave unexpectedly" or "to leak"



I don't know of any instance that salirse means to leak. It's on the right track, but it's not like that. If a container is leaking, you'd say "se le sale el líquido al envase," for example.
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