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Wizard
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Wizard
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April 16th, 2012 at 4:05:04 PM permalink
The issue is not the crumbs. What I asked my tutor was a bad example to get at the point of all this. It goes to my last example

Quote: wizard

El asesino debe haber gustado donas, porque se deja las migas en la escena del homicidio. = The murderer must have liked donuts, because he left crumbs at the scene of the homicide.



Quote: Nareed

"AL asesino le debeN haber gustado LAS donas, porque DEJÓ migas en la escena del homicidio."



I'm not questioning it, but have a hard time why it is debeN and not debe. So, I'm going to change the example to my tutor to "He must like eggs," to simplify the issue. I'll also change donuts to eggs, so that she doesn't think the Spanish word for donuts is the issue.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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April 16th, 2012 at 4:35:48 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

So, Paco, I read that page, but it didn't resolve my issue at hand. It contained this example.

“Se dice que este restaurante es muy caro.” = “It is said that this restaurant is very expensive”

That's fine, but how would you say "“It is said that these restaurants are very expensive”?



Se dice que estoS restauranteS SON muy caroS.

I had lots of trouble diferentiating "this" and "these."

Quote:

Also, I asked my new tutor by Email about how to translate “He leaves crumbs on his plate.” She said, "El deja migajas en su plato." Narred, what sayest thou?



Perfect.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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April 16th, 2012 at 9:41:38 PM permalink
So, I asked my tutor to translate "He must like eggs."

She wrote back, "A él le deben gustar los huevos".

I'll ask her to explain why it is deben, and not debe, this Thursday.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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April 16th, 2012 at 10:38:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

So, I asked my tutor to translate "He must like eggs."

She wrote back, "A él le deben gustar los huevos".

I'll ask her to explain why it is deben, and not debe, this Thursday.



I think you would normally use a contraction at the beginning: "Al le deben gustar los huevos".

It is a "reflexive passive voice". The subject is the eggs, and the object is "he". Reflexive Passive Voice doesn't exist in English.

English as true passive voice with the verb "to be". In Spanish true passive voice uses the verb "ser" and and the past participle of the verb in question.


Quote: Using the passive voice


If we are speaking of people, the situation is slightly different. For true passive sentences we follow the same pattern.

EXAMPLES:

Los bomberos salvaron a la víctima.
(active)The firemen saved the victim.
La víctima fue salvada por los bomberos.
(passive) The victim was saved by the firemen.

Los bomberos salvaron a las víctimas.
(active)The firemen saved the victims.
Las víctimas fueron salvadas por los bomberos.
(passive) The victims were saved by the firemen.

However, when we don't mention the "doer" and express the passive idea with a reflexive sentence, we do NOT match the verb to the people affected. Instead, we use the reflexive pronoun "se" as a kind of "indefinite subject" with a singular verb. It ends up meaning something like, "someone did it". Notice also that we use the preposition "a" to indicate the human direct object.

Se salvó a la víctima.
The victim was saved.
Se salvó a las víctimas.
The victims were saved.
It would be possible to use a normal reflexive construction also, but the meaning would be changed.

Se salvó la víctima.(without the preposition "a")
Se salvaron las víctimas.(plural verb and no preposition "a")
In these sentences, the idea is different. Instead of meaning that the victims were saved by somebody, they suggest that somehow the victims saved themselves, by their own effort.

Nareed
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April 17th, 2012 at 6:45:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'll ask her to explain why it is deben, and not debe, this Thursday.



Good luck.

The more I think about it, the more it seems my explanation is right.

Take these examples:

The thieves must have liked the painting, because it was the only thing they stole.
A los ladrones les debe haber gustado la pintura, porque fué lo único que se robaron.

The thief must have liked the sculptures, because he took them all.
Al ladrón le deben haber gustado las estatuas, porque se llevó todas.


I think, too, your original example about a murderer and donuts stayed too much in the spirit of this thread ;)
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pacomartin
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April 17th, 2012 at 7:32:19 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

The murderer must have liked donuts, because he left crumbs at the scene of the homicide.
"AL asesino le debeN haber gustado LAS donas, porque DEJÓ migas en la escena del homicidio."
I sense some deja vu regarding the use of "deben" vs "debe."
So I'll pre-empt by saying the plural applies to the object, in this case a very plural "laS donaS."



The plural definitely comes from "the doughnuts", but I don't think it is the object of the sentence in Spanish. It is confusing because "the doughnuts" is the object in the English sentence.
Wizard
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April 17th, 2012 at 7:39:19 AM permalink
Okay, thanks for the additional comments on the passive voice and what not. However, new day, you know what that means.

Fecha: 17-04-12
Palabra: Liar


Today's SWD is another one that that has a lot of meanings. The main ones seem to be: wrap up, make a mess of things, confuse, get mixed up in.

Here is the full sentence where I encountered it, Le dije se estaba portando como un bebé y entonces nos liamos a empujones. I think in the context of that sentence it means to punch. Definition #7 at La Acadamia Real is "Dar un golpe."

I'll put off my ejemplo until I have a better idea what the word means, plus I'm in a rush to get to an appointment.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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April 17th, 2012 at 7:48:16 AM permalink
The Spanish verb liar, is closely related to the Spanish verb ligar

liar
to bind, to tie.
to wrap, to wrap up
(colloquial) to deceive.

ligar
To tie
To flirt
To link, to join

The English noun ligature is a cognate
Nareed
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April 17th, 2012 at 8:18:20 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 17-04-12
Palabra: Liar



Oh, dear. I think we've done this one before. But since I don't want to search the forum for a homonym of "liar," I'll refrain from reaching for the yellow flag ;)

Quote:

Today's SWD is another one that that has a lot of meanings. The main ones seem to be: wrap up, make a mess of things, confuse, get mixed up in.



Fair enough. It's not a common word.

Quote:

Here is the full sentence where I encountered it, Le dije se estaba portando como un bebé y entonces nos liamos a empujones. I think in the context of that sentence it means to punch. Definition #7 at La Acadamia Real is "Dar un golpe."



Well, the translation I'd use, with the caveat I'm not familiar with the word and I'm not looking it up, is: "I told him he was acting like a baby and then we got into a shoving match."

"Empujones" means "to shove someone," or "to push someone," both in the context of a physical confrontation.

But I'm looking "liar" up now. Hmm. It's still not a common word, and I thought it meant "to fight" both from the example and the ressembalnce to "lidia" which does mean "a fight." Come to think of it, the past word might have been "lidiar."
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Wizard
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April 18th, 2012 at 6:22:29 AM permalink
Thanks for the comments yesterday. Sorry I never re-posted on liar, but it was a busy day yesterday.

Fecha: 18-04-12
Palabra: Alocar


One thing that used to drive me crazy was how to say "drive crazy" in Spanish. I think Me vuelve loco would be "It/you drives me crazy." What I had a hard time accepting was that I thought it was saying "It returns me crazy," as if I was crazy before and now I am again. However, as I understand it, volver doesn't just mean to "to return" but also to cause a change of states.

So, after all this trouble, I discover there is a perfectly good word for "drive crazy," which is alocar. A related word would be alocado, which just means crazy.

The question for the advanced readers is why does it seem most people user volver and loco to speaking about driving crazy, when just a single word, alocar, will do?

Ejemplo time.

Aloce cuando alguien llama día de Acción de Gracias "día de los pavos." = It drives me crazy when people refer to Thanksgiving as "turkey day."

Extra credit: Say, in Spanish, what drives you crazy.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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