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Wizard
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Wizard
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April 14th, 2012 at 7:03:17 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The novel is a famous post WWII work that most of us read in school.



Indeed. Most consider it to be one of the best works of American literature. Certainly one of the most famous, especially in the 20th century. It is the quintessential story of teenage angst. My daughter had to read it in 8th grade.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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April 14th, 2012 at 7:16:52 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

My daughter had to read it in 8th grade.



An English teacher friend always complained that Catcher in the Rye and Huckleberry Finn were both novels written for adults, yet they are always read today by children. The problem is that most people don't reread them at an age when they can actually understand the nuances.


El cazador oculto o El guardián entre el centeno es una novela de J. D. Salinger. Al publicarse en 1951 (aunque Salinger ya lo había presentado en forma de serie durante los años 1945-1946), en los Estados Unidos, la novela provocó numerosas controversias por su lenguaje provocador y por retratar sin tapujos la sexualidad y la ansiedad adolescente. Es considerado por numerosos expertos como uno de los libros más importantes del siglo XX.

Su protagonista, Holden Caulfield, se ha convertido en un ícono de la rebeldía adolescente. Escrito en primera persona, El guardián entre el centeno relata las experiencias de Holden en la ciudad de Nueva York, después de ser expulsado de Pencey Prep, su escuela preparatoria.


The original poem was written in the 18th century.
A weet – wet
B draigl't – draggled
C gin – if, should
D cry – call out [for help]
E warl – world
F ken – know

Comin' Thro' the Rye

O, Jenny's a' weet,{A} poor body,
Jenny's seldom dry:
She draigl't {B} a' her petticoatie,
Comin thro' the rye!

Chorus:
Comin thro' the rye, poor body,
Comin thro' the rye,
She draigl't a' her petticoatie,
Comin thro' the rye!

Gin {C} a body meet a body
Comin thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need a body cry?{D}

(chorus)

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body,
Need the warl'{E} ken?{F}

(chorus)

Gin a body meet a body
Comin thro' the grain;
Gin a body kiss a body,
The thing's a body's ain.

(chorus)

Ilka lassie has her laddie,
Nane, they say, ha’e I
Yet all the lads they smile on me,
When comin' thro' the rye.


While the original poem is already full of sexual imagery, an alternate version makes this more explicit. It has a different chorus, referring to a phallic "staun o' staunin' graith", "kiss" is replaced by "fuck", and Jenny's "thing" in stanza four is identified as her "cunt".
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 15th, 2012 at 8:42:59 AM permalink
Fecha: 15 de April, 2012
Palabra: Sembrar


Feliz día de los impuestos todos. However, today's SWD has nothing to do with that. It means to sow. A related word is semilla, which means seed.

The question for the advanced readers is what is the difference between semilla y simiente, which also means seed.

Ejemplo time.

El reino del Dio es como una semilla de mostaza, que un hombre tomaba y sembraba en su campo. = The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. -- Matthew 13:31

I struggled with what word to use for "heaven." According to Reverso (my new favorite Spanish-English dictionary), the word in Spanish is cielo. However, I thought cielo meant primarily sky. I thought saying "The kingdom of the sky" sounded like I was mocking it, which I do sometimes, but is not my intention here.

I thought "kingdom of god" sounded more respectful. However, that brought up the issue of whether I should use Dio or Dios, and I will capitalize them out of respect. It seems that usually, if not always, when god is referred to in Spanish it is Dios. However, other passages in the bible when referring to god, in English, use the singular. I wonder if using the plural Dios is because Spanish speaking countries are primarily Catholic, which has a deeply-rooted belief in the trinity. So, another question for the advanced readers, in both Spanish and theology, is why is it usually, if not always, Dios and not Dio?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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April 15th, 2012 at 9:08:36 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Feliz día de los impuestos todos.



¿Feliz?

Quote:

The question for the advanced readers is what is the difference between semilla y simiente, which also means seed.



My question is how you keep coming up with obscure terms. The dictionary agrees with you, but it's new to me.

Quote:

El reino del Dio es como una semilla de mostaza, que un hombre tomaba y sembraba en su campo. = The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. -- Matthew 13:31



"Dio" is not a word meaning God or god at all. At least not according to the dictionary.

Aside from that, you're using different tenses in Spanish than in English. In Spanish you said "...that a man was taking and sowing..." To get the same tense you'd say "...que un hombre tomó y plantó..." But the sentence itself is fine.

Quote:

I struggled with what word to use for "heaven." According to Reverso (my new favorite Spanish-English dictionary), the word in Spanish is cielo. However, I thought cielo meant primarily sky. I thought saying "The kingdom of the sky" sounded like I was mocking it, which I do sometimes, but is not my intention here.



The word to use is "cielo," sorry. Although not used to the same extent, "heaven" also means "sky" in English. Astronomers can be described as "studying the heavens," for example. I think, though, "el reino de dios" is appropriate, too, in this case; you'd better ask a Spanish-speaking Christian to make sure. IN this specific case, but again find a Christian, I think the term sued would be "el reino de los cielos."


Quote:

However, that brought up the issue of whether I should use Dio or Dios, and I will capitalize them out of respect.



Capitalization aside, as I said above "Dio" is not a word for any kind of god. "Dió" is the past tense of "dar," "to give."

Quote:

It seems that usually, if not always, when god is referred to in Spanish it is Dios. However, other passages in the bible when referring to god, in English, use the singular. I wonder if using the plural Dios is because Spanish speaking countries are primarily Catholic, which has a deeply-rooted belief in the trinity. So, another question for the advanced readers, in both Spanish and theology, is why is it usually, if not always, Dios and not Dio?



Well, not all words ending in "s" are plural. Most of them, yes, but not all. One good example is "dios," that's singular, referring to a deity. The plural is "dioses." BTW it's also male. The female forms are "diosa" and "diosas" respectively.

I'll get a jump on Paco, maybe, and point out the word "dios" comes from the Latin "deus," meaning exactly the same thing. Unlime many other Latin terms, this one kept the "s" at the end.

So in order to say "god" in Spanish, you always use "dios," capitalized or not.
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Wizard
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April 15th, 2012 at 10:46:11 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

My question is how you keep coming up with obscure terms. The dictionary agrees with you, but it's new to me.



Usually I get them from the dictionary directly. Put in the word "seed" in an English to Spanish dictionary and it will mention both semilla y simiente. The student like me has little way of knowing which term is common and which is archaic. Other times I get them from whatever book I'm working through, so may be a seldom-used word in Mexico may be common in Spain. For example, you never hear the word "pram" in the U.S., but it is common in Australia.

Quote:

Aside from that, you're using different tenses in Spanish than in English. In Spanish you said "...that a man was taking and sowing..." To get the same tense you'd say "...que un hombre tomó y plantó..."



Hmmm. I know that we've been over the difference between the peterite and imperfect past tense several times, and I don't wish to rehash that, except to say I went with the imperfect because I thought you were supposed to when telling a story. So, can I say that a good translating of the imperfect is "was (verb)ing." Such as was talking, was singing, was playing, was sleeping.

The part about cielo, dios, y dioses was quite clear. No further comment there, although I'm sure Paco can stir up that topic again.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
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April 15th, 2012 at 11:21:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Usually I get them from the dictionary directly. Put in the word "seed" in an English to Spanish dictionary and it will mention both semilla y simiente.



Did it mention it's also related to "semen" and "semental"? The first needs no translation, the second means "stud," but only as regards animals.

Quote:

The student like me has little way of knowing which term is common and which is archaic.



Indeed. Even in formal language lessons, you're often confined to word choices and usage made by the authors of text books. My teacher told me that, and that's one reason he told me to read and watch TV and movie in English.

Quote:

The part about cielo, dios, y dioses was quite clear. No further comment there, although I'm sure Paco can stir up that topic again.



That's why I cleverly stole his thunder :)

Speaking of thunder, and giving Paco and opening, I've often wondered whether the Latin "deus" is derived from the Greek name "Zeus." In Spanish the pronunciation of both words varies by only one letter, I imagine in Latin it does as well.

The Roman god equated to Zeus is Jupiter. But the Romans already had gods whom they then equated to the more interesting Greek gods.
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pacomartin
pacomartin
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April 15th, 2012 at 2:29:43 PM permalink
Quote:

When you get down to the most fundamental words like mother, father, and God you will find some correlation among all the IE languages. Some variant of Deus is all over the IE world, in Sanskrit, Gothic, old Germanic languages, etc.



Interesting. I knew that the word for mother and father is variant of ma and pa or ba in every major language. They say it is because they are easy for babies to say. My mother says my first word was "car." Anyway, new day, so let's move on...

Fecha: 16-04-12
Palabra: Migar


Today's SWD means to crumble. A related word is miga, which means "crumb," or the inside part of a loaf of bread.

The question for the advanced readers is what is the difference between migar y desmenuzar?

Ejemplo time.

El asesino debe haber gustado donas, porque se deja las migas en la escena del homicidio. = The murderer must have liked donuts, because he left crumbs at the scene of the homicide.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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April 15th, 2012 at 2:47:28 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

The word to use is "cielo," sorry. Although not used to the same extent, "heaven" also means "sky" in English. Astronomers can be described as "studying the heavens," for example. I think, though, "el reino de dios" is appropriate, too, in this case; you'd better ask a Spanish-speaking Christian to make sure. IN this specific case, but again find a Christian, I think the term sued would be "el reino de los cielos."



Originally "sky" was an Old Norse word which meant "cloud". Heaven was from from Old English "heafon" which meant "home of God". But there was always some overlap between God's home and the sky.

The English word "celestial" is a cognate with Spanish "cielo". In English you can refer to a "celestial body", and mean a planet, or you can say "celestial being" in which case you mean something supernatural.
pacomartin
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April 15th, 2012 at 3:01:23 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

My question is how you keep coming up with obscure terms. The dictionary agrees with you, but it's new to me.



Wizard,
I've noticed that if you look up a word in the DRAE, and it has one word definitions, it is often obscure word. Sometimes they say it is archaic.


simiente
1. f. semilla
2. f. semen

semilla
1. f. Bot. Parte del fruto de las fanerógamas, que contiene el embrión de una futura planta, protegido por una testa, derivada de los tegumentos del primordio seminal.
2. f. Grano que en diversas formas produce las plantas y que al caer o ser sembrado produce nuevas plantas de la misma especie.
3. f. Fragmento de vegetal provisto de yemas, como tubérculos, bulbos, etc.
4. f. Cosa que es causa u origen de que proceden otras.
5. f. pl. Granos que se siembran, exceptuados el trigo y la cebada.
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 16th, 2012 at 8:03:31 AM permalink
Quote:

When you get down to the most fundamental words like mother, father, and God you will find some correlation among all the IE languages. Some variant of Deus is all over the IE world, in Sanskrit, Gothic, old Germanic languages, etc.



Interesting. I knew that the word for mother and father is variant of ma and pa or ba in every major language. They say it is because they are easy for babies to say. My mother says my first word was "car." Anyway, new day, so let's move on...

Fecha: 16-04-12
Palabra: Migar


Today's SWD means to crumble. A related word is miga, which means "crumb," or the inside part of a loaf of bread.

The question for the advanced readers is what is the difference between migar y desmenuzar?

Ejemplo time.

El asesino debe haber gustado donas, porque se deja las migas en la escena del homicidio. = The murderer must have liked donuts, because he left crumbs at the scene of the homicide.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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