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Nareed
Nareed
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March 25th, 2012 at 4:10:46 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I do not know if it also acquired the same figurative meaning in Spanish. The DRAE definition is no help.

1. adj. Que está o puede estar en efervescencia.



Spanish dictionaries are often frustrating that way. You're meant to look up "efervescencia."
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Wizard
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March 25th, 2012 at 4:15:08 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Why isn't the plural of person - persons?



I think in some situations persons can be a legitimate word. For example, a detective might say to another detective, "John and Steve are persons of interest in this case." However, I get your point. When you learn the language naturally these things don't bother you, or you forget that they did. I just recall my mother always correcting me for saying "me" and "I" was appropriate, and I still have fear of using the word "me" to this day, lest my mother appear behind my back and castigate me.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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March 25th, 2012 at 4:26:31 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I see you have an image there, but I don't see it.



The image says
CASI LO PILLO
tú ten la bolsa prearada

The image has a photo of two children in rigid hull inflatable boat in what looks like an ocean. The little boy is hanging over the side with a gold fish net, while the little girl has a plastic bag filled with water in one hand. In the ocean water is the fin of a shark.
Nareed
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March 25th, 2012 at 4:27:09 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Why isn't the plural of man - mans?



Because that would be Newspeak, not English? ;P

Quote:

Why isn't the plural of person - persons?



I didn't know the plural of person was people. I thought they were two different words. in fact, by usage they are different words. Vox Populi, Vox Dei after all :)
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 25th, 2012 at 4:45:23 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I didn't know the plural of person was people. I thought they were two different words. in fact, by usage they are different words. Vox Populi, Vox Dei after all :)



They are two different words in Latin. In English in legal and other formal contexts, the plural of person is persons. However, in casual usage the plural of person is people.

Words where different tenses come from two different words are called suppletive. In English go and went came from two different words.

In Spanish ir comes from three different verbs in Latin
voy, vas, va ,vamos, van
fui, fuiste, fue, fuimos, fueron
iba, ibas, iba, íbamos, iban
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 26th, 2012 at 3:52:45 AM permalink
Fecha: 26 de Marzo, 2012
Palabra: Envolver


Today's SWD means to wrap or cover something. According to SpanishDict.com it has other meanings as well:

1. To wrap up, to wrap around with paper, cloth, or other analogous thing: to convolve; to inwrap.
Dos paquetes envueltos en papel -> two parcels wrapped in paper
2. To convince by reasoning. (Metaphorical)
3. To put things into confusion.
4. To attack an enemy on all sides, to surround, so as to force a surrender. (Military)
verb reflexive
5. To be implicated in an affair.
6. To be unlawfully connected with women.

Where I encountered it recently it referred to a candy wrapper.

A question for the advanced readers is what is the connection between volver y envolver? I also have a prurient interest in details on meaning #6.

Ejemplo time.

¿Por qué son los envolvederos de baterías tan difícil a quitar? = Why are battery wrappers so difficult to remove?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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March 26th, 2012 at 7:09:23 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Fecha: 26 de Marzo, 2012
Palabra: Envolver

A question for the advanced readers is what is the connection between volver y envolver? I also have a prurient interest in details on meaning #6.



Other dictionaries list "involve"more often than "convolve" as a synonym. I am not saying "convolve" is incorrect.


It is a verb that has assumed a lot of meanings over the years. In Latin the two verbs only differ by a prefix "in".

Latin:
present active volvō, present infinitive volvere; English: I roll, tumble.
present active involvō, present infinitive involvere: English: I roll about, wrap up, envelop, involve; etymologically from in (“in, at, on”) + volvō (“roll”).

In Spanish the primary meaning of volver is "to return", and envolver is "to involve" or to "to wrap".

The reflexive meaning (definitions #5 and #6) are not that much different than the English idiom "What have you got yourself wrapped-up in?" . You could be having an affair, or be involved with drugs. I think definition #5 is more about married men having affairs than anything else.
Nareed
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March 26th, 2012 at 7:49:46 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

A question for the advanced readers is what is the connection between volver y envolver? I also have a prurient interest in details on meaning #6.



None, as far as I know. they're just verbs with a similar ortographic structure (if that's the word I want). As for #6, I'de never heard it used that way. Here's a consolation prize, though:

"Envuelto/a" can mean being involved in matters or affairs. "Desenvolver" means to unwrap, but it also refers to how a person acts through a situation. So when Les Luthiers wrote of a mythical explorer who discovered the Americas one year before Columbus, part of the mini-play's title is "...de los acontecimientos en que se vió envuelto, y como se desenvolvió."

Quote:

¿Por qué son los envolvederos de baterías tan difícil a quitar? = Why are battery wrappers so difficult to remove?



"¿Por que las ENVOLTURAS de baterías son tan dificiles DE quitar?"

Do you want some sympathy? In one of my earliest attempts to construct an Egnlish sentence, I said something like "Why are the wrappers of the batteries so hard of remove?"

It just takes time and practice, and suddenly you find yourself mastering a language.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
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March 26th, 2012 at 8:02:13 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Quote: Wizard

A question for the advanced readers is what is the connection between volver y envolver? I also have a prurient interest in details on meaning #6.



None, as far as I know. they're just verbs with a similar ortographic structure (if that's the word I want).



The simplest translation of orthography is simply "spelling", but it often refers to the theory behind the spelling. For instance, as we said earlier, the English words "receipt, conceit, and deceit" are basically the same word with different prefixes, but only one has the letter 'p'. The theory behind the spelling was an attempt to acknowledge the ancient Latin word that had a letter 'p'. But the writer of the dictionary was inconsistent. So "spelling" errors are what you or I do, but "orthography" was what Dr. Johnson was doing in the 18th century when he wrote the dictionary that decided what correct "spelling" should look like.

So volver and envolver are spelled the same (last 6 letters) because they come from the same Latin root word. However, over the centuries there meanings in Spanish have now diverged.
Wizard
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March 26th, 2012 at 4:18:40 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Do you want some sympathy? In one of my earliest attempts to construct an Egnlish sentence, I said something like "Why are the wrappers of the batteries so hard of remove?"



That doesn't sound so bad. If my Spanish sounded like that I'd be quite proud of myself, as the question is quite clearly understood. You also get credit for using "hard," which is a mas difícil word than difícil.

Thanks, as always for your help. I may not say it every day, but I am always very grateful for it.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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