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Wizard
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Wizard
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March 5th, 2012 at 3:46:51 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Ella fue tan bonita que carecí el valor para le hablar.



Quote: Nareed

"Ella ERA tan bonita que carecí Del valor para hablarLE."



Quote: Wizard

La repartidora regañarme por no haciendo el apuesto de mujeres suertes.



Quote: Nareed

"La dealer me regañó por no hacer la apuesta de Lucky ladies."



Maybe this is getting too deep, but I've never understood when to put the direct object before the verb, and when to attach it afterward. Consider the first quote where I wrote le hablar, and Nareed corrected me to hablarLE.

With that correction duly noted, I wrote regañarme for today's SWD, and was rebuked saying it should be me regañó.

Can someone explain the difference to me?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Doc
Doc
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March 5th, 2012 at 4:59:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I wrote le hablar, and Nareed corrected me to hablarLE.

With that correction duly noted, I wrote regañarme for today's SWD, and was rebuked saying it should be me regañó.

Can someone explain the difference to me?

Do you read the comic strip "Over the Hedge"? It's as if you are Verne and Nareed is RJ.
Nareed
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March 5th, 2012 at 5:15:35 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Maybe this is getting too deep, but I've never understood when to put the direct object before the verb, and when to attach it afterward. Consider the first quote where I wrote le hablar, and Nareed corrected me to hablarLE.

With that correction duly noted, I wrote regañarme for today's SWD, and was rebuked saying it should be me regañó.

Can someone explain the difference to me?



I'm not sure I can. here's my understanding of grammar:

Q: Why is it important to ahve good grammar?
A: Because she's nice to you even when your parent ain't.

Anyway, I think the difference lies in expressing an action by someone done on you (me regañó) and an action you perform on someone else (hablarle).

Still, if you were to say something along the lines of "are you going to....?" you'd say "¿vas a regañarme?" or "¿me vas a regañar?" and both are equally valid. This also applies to ¿vas a hablarle? and ¿le vas a hablar? FWIW.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 5th, 2012 at 5:16:13 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard


Quote: Wizard

Ella fue tan bonita que carecí el valor para le hablar.


Quote: Wizard

La repartidora regañarme por no haciendo el apuesto de mujeres suertes.


Maybe this is getting too deep, but I've never understood when to put the direct object before the verb, and when to attach it afterward. Consider the first quote where I wrote le hablar, and Nareed corrected me to hablarLE.
With that correction duly noted, I wrote regañarme for today's SWD, and was rebuked saying it should be me regañó.
Can someone explain the difference to me?



Quote: Nareed

Anyway, I think the difference lies in expressing an action by someone done on you (me regañó) and an action you perform on someone else (hablarle).


Expanding on Nareed's comment.

PART I: Before you worry about pronoun placement the first thing is not to confuse the direct and indirect object pronouns.
In English "me" is a direct object pronoun, and "to me" is an indirect object pronoun.
In Spanish Indirect pronouns do not have gender, and "le" is always an indirect object pronoun.

Your first sentence uses an indirect pronoun since you lacked the courage to talk to her.
Your second sentence uses a direct pronoun since "the dealer scolded me"

The verb form of "to talk" was infinitive exactly the same as English: "to talk to her"
The verb form of "to scold" was conjugated exactly the same as English where you used the past tense: "the dealer scolded me"
What you wrote was "to scold to me" which is not what you meant to say.

Direct object pronouns (pronombres de complemento directo) me, te, lo, la, nos, los, las, se
Indirect object pronouns (pronombres de complemento indirecto) me, te, le, nos, les, se



PART II: Position of object pronouns
Object pronouns normally occur immediately before the verb. However, if the verb is
* an affirmative command,
* an infinitive,
* or a gerund (-ndo form in Spanish),
the object pronouns are attached to the end of the verb form. Note that when pronouns are appended to a verb a written accent mark is necessary when the stressed syllable is more than two syllables from the end of the word.

If the verb form consists of a conjugated verb and either an infinitive or an -ndo form, the user has the option of placing the object pronouns before the conjugated verb or attaching them to the end of the unconjugated one.

EXAMPLES (following the above rules for placement):

No lo veo. I don't see it.
¡No me digas nada! Don't say anything to me!
¡Háblenos usted! Talk to us!
Favor de darme el libro. Please give me the book.
¿Qué estás haciendo? What are you doing?
Quitándome el suéter. Taking off my sweater.


Voy a verlo. I'm going to see him/you/it. (masculine)
OR:
Lo voy a ver.

Estamos buscándola. We're looking for her/you/it. (feminine)
OR:
La estamos buscando.

Because you confused the indirect and direct pronouns, "to her" and "me", you used the infinitive in both cases. Because the second sentence required a conjugated verb it wasn't one of the three cases where you attach the pronoun to the end of the verb.
Doc
Doc
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March 5th, 2012 at 5:37:14 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

... In English "me" is a direct object pronoun, and "to me" is an indirect object pronoun.

Exceptions can be the thrill and bane of our lives:

Bake me a cake.
Throw me the ball.
Teach me better grammar.
Give me a chance.

The "to" (or "for") is quite often not expressed for indirect objects. When it is expressed, I personally view that as a prepositional phrase rather than an indirect object. Of course, these comments are for English, and I don't know the Spanish grammar.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 5th, 2012 at 7:10:02 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

Exceptions can be the thrill and bane of our lives:

Bake me a cake.
Throw me the ball.
Teach me better grammar.
Give me a chance.

The "to" (or "for") is quite often not expressed for indirect objects. When it is expressed, I personally view that as a prepositional phrase rather than an indirect object. Of course, these comments are for English, and I don't know the Spanish grammar.



You are correct of course. I was trying to get through that point as quickly as possible. You can say either "Throw me the ball", or "Throw the ball to me". In either case the pronoun "me" is indirect.

The same problem comes in trying to identify infinitives in English. It is customary to define them as "to throw", or "to teach" so that they are easy to identify. But infinitives can exist in "bare" form as well. But they are harder to identify because the spelling is identical to the present tense.

Romance languages do not rely on "helper" words as much like Germanic languages. They use conjugations. But the object pronouns differ slightly if they are direct or indirect. But the rules about using the verb in infinitive or conjugated form depend on if the pronoun is direct or indirect. That in turn affects the rules for pronoun placement.

I share the Wizard's frustration on this point. To a native speaker pronouns are natural and they can change their placement at will. To a gringo it often is very confusing, since the equivalent doesn't exist in English. The native Spanish speaker is amazed that the gringo can't puzzle out extremely sentences with no difficult vocabulary equivalent to "Give it to him". Because the word "give" is a command, there is an arbitrary choices of where you can place the pronoun. In addition because there is both a direct and indirect pronoun there are even more choices. Plus in Spanish you can overtly voice the subject pronoun if you want the sentence to sound more like "Hey you, give it to him".
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 5th, 2012 at 7:50:12 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

PART II: Position of object pronouns
Object pronouns normally occur immediately before the verb. However, if the verb is
* an affirmative command,
* an infinitive,
* or a gerund (-ndo form in Spanish),
the object pronouns are attached to the end of the verb form. Note that when pronouns are appended to a verb a written accent mark is necessary when the stressed syllable is more than two syllables from the end of the word.



Why is it that four-year-old children can learn a language so effortlessly without ever encountering rules like these?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 5th, 2012 at 8:56:37 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Why is it that four-year-old children can learn a language so effortlessly without ever encountering rules like these?



I don't know. The poverty of stimulus theory is the formal name for the fact that children seem to pick up grammatical structure far faster than should be possible with what the stimulus to which they are exposed.

Spanish was the subject of the first book on grammar. The language was distinct from Latin for more than 5 centuries before someone wrote a book about it.

Pronouns, gender and verb conjugations. So easy a Spanish baby can learn it.

Give it to me!

dámelo
me lo da
le dan a mí
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 6th, 2012 at 5:11:20 AM permalink
Fecha: 6 de Marzo, 2012
Palabra: aplastar


Today's SWD means to squash/crush.

Ejemplo time

Mi confianza con mujeres esta aplastado. = My confidence with women is crushed.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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March 6th, 2012 at 6:14:04 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

aplastar means to squash/crush.

Ejemplo time
Mi confianza con mujeres esta aplastado. = My confidence with women is crushed.



Synonyms are derrotar, vencer, and humillar so it can be used in the figurative sense as well.
A coloquial meaning is "apabullar" or to overwhelm.

Miguel está derrotado (you need the accent on está do distinguish it from esta).

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