Thread Rating:

Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1399
  • Posts: 23635
January 20th, 2012 at 8:25:08 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Now, I don't know what blueberry translates as, but "arándano" is cranberry, the one which seems to be around only at Thanksgiving.



You later admitted that arándano also means blueberry. However, there must be some way to distinguish the two. For example, if a restaurant has pastel de arándano on the menu how would you know whether it is cranberry or blueberry pie?

Quote:

Anyway, the phrase doesn't make sense. Whatever the meaning, "arándano" contains no reference to color.



I thought you might say that. However, if I put "blueberry" in English you would ask where is the SWD in the ejemplo. In that light, perhaps it wasn't the best example, but does illustrate another issue. What would a professional translator do with that sentence?

Such situations happen a lot with the Ramona books, because many stories revolve around misunderstandings based on English homonyms. For example, one chapter revolved around the word present and the ensuing confusion whether it referred to a gift of the current moment in time. The translation in Spanish was very awkward. Another chapter revolved around a similar misunderstanding over the lyrics of the American National Anthem. The Spanish translation had to footnote a lengthy explanation about the English words in it that were pertinent to the plot of the story.

In some easier picture books I have about Olivia the Pig it seems the translator didn't consider the English words at all, and just went off of the pictures. For example, in Olivia Helps with Christmas there is the sentence "Finally the tree was trimmed." However, the picture shows a tree with lots of ornaments on it. The Spanish says El árbol por pin está adornado. I take that to mean, the tree was finally decorated.

While I'm on the topic of that book, I was wondering what this sentence means, Mi amor, todavía falta much para que llegue Santa.

To get further off topic, another children's book I have in Spanish refers to Santa as Papa Noel. How do they refer to him in Mexico? Argentina?

Quote:

So how about some homework? Find the English words for the following berries:



Fresa = strawberry (I knew that one)
Grosella:

grosella (roja) -> redcurrant
grosella negra -> blackcurrant
grosella silvestre -> gooseberry (source: http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/Grosella)

Frambuesa = raspberry
Zarzamora = spanishdict.com says blackberry. However I thought the word for blackberry was mora. In fact, that word appears in book I was just referring to, Olivia se prepara para la Navidad.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
January 20th, 2012 at 9:48:18 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What would a professional translator do with that sentence?



I think that is where we get the expression lost in translation. You either resort to a flat indicative sentence, or you replace it completely with an equivalent wordplay in Spanish.

In looking at gambling websites and possible translation into Spanish, I discovered that in English we often slip back and forth from one definition to another for an English word. For instance look at two possible dictionary definitions of the word odds.

(A) The ratio of the probability of an event's occurring to the probability of its not occurring.
(B) A ratio expressing the amount by which the stake of one bettor differs from that of an opposing bettor.

Definition (A) is by far the meaning most people associate with the word. In craps, if you roll a 4 or a 10 on your come-out roll, then the odds are 2:1 that you will make your point. Definition (A) is clearly being used.

Hot Blonde has set 9:1 odds that she will make her weight goal. Since the "true" probability is unknown, we are using definition (B). Hot Blonde is taking the odds and the other forum member are laying odds.

The difficulty is that sometimes the player mixes the two definitions. If you are on the "Don't Pass" and the come out roll is on the 4, the "odds" bet is $2 to win $1. The payout ratio is from definition (A), but the act of "laying odds" is from definition (B) and refers to betting more money to win less (just like the Hot Blonde bet).

You can see the translation is very difficult. In addition we have other definitions of odd that are closely related to definition (B) of odds. We have <<odd>> numbers and we have <<odd>> people.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
January 20th, 2012 at 11:17:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I thought you might say that. However, if I put "blueberry" in English you would ask where is the SWD in the ejemplo. In that light, perhaps it wasn't the best example, but does illustrate another issue. What would a professional translator do with that sentence?



Kill it :)

Seriously, most times, word play cannot be translated, You can translate the meaning, but usually not the double meaning, Exceptions are rare. What i've seen done on TV shows using subtitles, is they substitute a similar pun, or a pun along similar lines. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails spectacularly.

Quote:

Such situations happen a lot with the Ramona books, because many stories revolve around misunderstandings based on English homonyms. For example, one chapter revolved around the word present and the ensuing confusion whether it referred to a gift of the current moment in time. The translation in Spanish was very awkward.



Without knowing the works in question, I find it a bit odd because this may be a rare exception. There are three Spanish words for a gift: regalo, obsequio and presente. The latter also means "present" as in the current moment in time.

Work beckons. more later.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
January 20th, 2012 at 1:32:41 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Without knowing the works in question, I find it a bit odd because this may be a rare exception. There are three Spanish words for a gift: regalo, obsequio and presente. The latter also means "present" as in the current moment in time.



(DRAE definition) presente - Obsequio, regalo que alguien da a otra persona en señal de reconocimiento o de afecto.

It's difficult to know why the same word-play doesn't work in Spanish as well as English. My guess is that English speaking children use the word <<present>> more often than the word <<gift>>. So it is easy for them to confuse the two meanings of the word <<present>>.

I assume that Spanish speaking children are more likely to use <<regalo>> instead of <<presente>>. So they are less likely to get the joke based on the double meaning of the word.

I would be curious to hear the translation.

BTW: The word obsequiousness has only negative connotations in English.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
January 20th, 2012 at 2:39:11 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I looked up blueberry in an online dictionary, and it did come upw ith arándano. Problem is I also looked up cranberry, and the answer was aránadano.



Just googling arándano produces an equal number of images of blueberries and cranberries.



The DRAE says that arándano are fruits from the family of Ericales. Unfortunately Ericales is large order of plants containing some 8000 species, including tea, kiwi, blueberries, huckleberries, cranberries, etc.

Perhaps there is some country to country variation in the use of the word.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1399
  • Posts: 23635
January 20th, 2012 at 4:14:56 PM permalink
An entire chapter revolved around the present/present thing. Maybe I was too quick to say the translation was awkward. Let's just drop that.

So, let me get this straight.

There are two words for blackberry: zarzamora y mora.

However cranberry and blueberry have to share arádano.

Is it just me or can anyone else see the inefficiency here? I'm definitely adding this to my list of things to bring up the Acadamia Real de Español.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
pacomartin
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
  • Threads: 649
  • Posts: 7895
January 20th, 2012 at 5:00:58 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

So, let me get this straight. There are two words for blackberry: zarzamora y mora. However cranberry and blueberry have to share arádano.
Is it just me or can anyone else see the inefficiency here? I'm definitely adding this to my list of things to bring up the Acadamia Real de Español.



According to Google translate zarzamora could mean blackberry or raspberry and mora could mean blackberry or blueberry. I am just reporting results so don't shoot me.

Blackberry, blueberry, and raspberry are mûre, myrtille, framboise in French; mora, mirtillo, lampone in Italian; amora, mirtilo, framboesa in Portuguese; mure, afine, zmeură in Romanian; and rubus, xxxx, rubus idaeus in Latin. Idaeus means you were from Phrygia or modern day Turkey. Maybe the problem is that there was no Latin word for "blueberries".


Aula Virtual de Español are online courses offered by the Cervantes Institute. $200 On-line course with tutor and $160 On-line course without tutor. Email: classprogram@cervantes.es Tel.: 212 308 7720 ext.3
Maybe you could get your message heard about some of these language inefficiencies.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
January 20th, 2012 at 6:04:24 PM permalink
From usage I'd define "mora" as meaning "berry." The thing is few berries have "mora" in their names. To make matters worse, "morillas," which any reasonable person would take to mean "small or tiny berries," are actually a kind of mushroom or truffle <roll-eyes>.

Languages are often inconsistent <shrug>. you kind of get used to it.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1399
  • Posts: 23635
January 20th, 2012 at 6:29:54 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

According to Google translate zarzamora could mean blackberry or raspberry and mora could mean blackberry or blueberry. I am just reporting results so don't shoot me.



According to SpanishDict.com the only word for raspberry is frambuesa. Speaking of the word raspberry, is the p silent, or am I just lazy in not pronouncing it? That is also on one of my Spanish flash cards.

Quote: pacomartin

Maybe you could get your message heard about some of these language inefficiencies.



No, I'm going straight to the top. Whom do I complain to at the Acadamía Real?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
January 20th, 2012 at 6:32:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

No, I'm going straight to the top. Whom do I complain to at the Acadamía Real?



I guess the top would be the King of Spain.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal

  • Jump to: