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Wizard
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Wizard
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December 14th, 2011 at 10:16:08 PM permalink
Okay, sorry for all the distractions, let's get back to Español.

Fecha: 15-12-11
Palabra lindo: otoño = autumn
Palabra fea: hormiga = ant

Ejemplo time

Me gusta el olor de el bosque en el otoño. = I love the smell of the forest in the autumn.

Mi jefe me hace trabajar como una hormiga = My boss makes me work like an ant.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
FrGamble
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December 14th, 2011 at 10:40:21 PM permalink
I don't know if I can or could answer definitively about the whole of which Catholics believe in a post or in 100 of them. Let me start by saying that there is a hierarchy of beliefs in the Catholic faith. I like to use the image of the beautiful colonnade outside of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. I look at them as a mother's arms reaching out to the world. Inside those arms is plenty of room for lots of people (in fact the whole world) with lots of different views concerning different aspects of the faith. Far to the left or far to the right of this huge piazza you can find people still comforted by their Catholic faith who hold very different priorities. However, there is also a clearly marked line that puts you outside the embrace of mother Church.

Another way to help understand this variety found in Catholicism is to think of the three legged footstool. Unlike Bob Tebow's group Catholics see God's revelation not only in the Bible, but also in Sacred Tradition (from which the Bible came into existence) and the Magisterium, or teaching office of the Church. You could think of the Magisterium as the reflection of the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit to deepen and develop the deposit of Divine Revelation found in the Bible and Sacred Tradition.

The Magisterium is the teaching office of the Church and there are two types of teachings: extraordinary or ordinary form. Any teaching of the Church requires some level of assent on the part of the faithful but the assent required depends of the level or type of the Magisterium. Of course, any teaching of the Catholic Church must be derived from the deposit of Divine Revelation (Bible and Tradition). It should be obvious that nothing authentically from the Sacred Tradition can contradict the Biblical Word of God nor any Biblical teaching properly interpreted can contradict Sacred Tradition. Extraordinary teachings or supreme or Sacred teachings of the Magisterium would be infallible.

Infallibility is not the sole property of the Pope. When the Bishops come together in a council or when they universally teach something to be true they exercise the supreme level of the magisterium. The faithful together with their bishops around the world also proclaim infallible truths by what they believe as the Body of Christ guided by the Spirit. In fact Papal Infallibility ex cathedra is not pronouncing anything new to be true but it is clarifying an already held belief to be part of the extraordinary magisterium. For example the Assumption of Mary and Mary's Immaculate Conception were widely held and ancient beliefs of the Church that the Pope felt necessary to proclaim infallible when they came under attack. This was not to stifle theological debate, which continues to this day, but rather to help protect the faithful from confusion and maintain the unity of the Church. The assent required for this supreme or Sacred level of Church teaching is full assent of faith or the obedience of faith. This type of assent I would describe as knowing and believing something is true as a given. This still leaves us room to discover why it is true for ourselves. Think of it like someone who gives away the ending to the movie or the sports game but we can still of course watch how it happens and try to figure it out all the time knowing how it has to end.

The ordinary magisterium or teaching of the Church is not infallible. This does not mean you don't have to believe anything the ordinary magisterium teaches. This level of teaching still asks from the faithful a religious assent of the mind and will. What does that mean? It means that we should in humility give the Churchs teaching the benefit of the doubt when it comes in conflict with our own thoughts and feelings. I can feel Evenbob calling this toeing the company line, but it doesn't mean that we wholeheartedly agree with the teaching. It just means that when I weigh my limited understanding of this stuff against the Church and all of its many theologians, prayerful discernment, ancient traditions, and special role as founded by Christ Himself to pass on the Gospel I should lean a little bit to the side of the Church. It means I am called to foster a humble recognition that even if I can't fully assent to the teaching I recognize the authority of the Church outweighs my own personal opinions. Dissent from an ordinary teaching of the magisterium is possible but not based just on what I want to be true or my own feelings. To dissent you must call upon the Bible or Tradition or another more certain teaching of the magisterium.

There is so much more but let me stop there as my point is to say that the question of what Catholics believe is not as easy as putting together a list, there are different levels of teaching some of which have to be held some of which can be reasonably dissented from.
Really sorry for the long and confusing post Yo quiero Taco Bell!
pacomartin
pacomartin
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December 15th, 2011 at 5:38:49 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Protestants observe commune about once a month or so, depending on the denomination. However, they don't believe, as Catholics do, that the bread and wine are literally changed to the body and blood of Jesus. They believe they are symbolic of it. They do it to remember Jesus' sacrifice, and a feeling of redemption they get afterward.



I think if you actually studied the Protestant denominations, you would find only a few (like Jehovah's witnesses) that use the word "symbolic". While the word "transubstantiation" is very Catholic, many Protestant creeds refer to "real presence" or something more than symbolism.

Personally, I am more of an empiricist; by which I mean I have trouble with arguments that cannot be tested by any scientific means.


Fighting ants

I won't post a picture of food that some people may find offensive, but for the gourmets look up escamoles.
Nareed
Nareed
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December 15th, 2011 at 7:18:00 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Okay, sorry for all the distractions, let's get back to Español.



It's your board and your thread. You can highjack it if you want to.

But I must say I had a flashback to an old movie. To paraphrase "Listening to these Christians talk about theology is like walking into a room full of people speaking some weird Hungarian dialect." ;)

If it's any consolation, I get the same feeling when I catch Orhtodox Jews discussing theology as well. Not to mention conservative Jews, which can be even more disconcerting.
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Wizard
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Wizard
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December 15th, 2011 at 9:52:02 AM permalink
You can consider my response to Paco's Email about transubstantiation in this post.

Quote: Nareed

To paraphrase "Listening to these Christians talk about theology is like walking into a room full of people speaking some weird Hungarian dialect." ;)



Well, as long as the terminology is sufficiently dumbed down for me, I enjoy any honest discussion about any religion, especially if there is some difference in opinion being expressed. Nothing worse than just getting preached at. I went to a Orthodox Jewish service a few years ago, by the way. I'd love to ask you questions about it, but I can't remember the details very well, and it was all in Hebrew.

I guess I find it fascinating that most of the planet find the need for it, and take some pleasure in learning about the details. For example, if the Virgin of Guadalupe an interesting story, which is why I keep asking questions about it. I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.
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pacomartin
pacomartin
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December 15th, 2011 at 1:34:11 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

For example, if the Virgin of Guadalupe an interesting story, which is why I keep asking questions about it. I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.



As one of the world's greatest shrines, you should see it. Mexican airlines are usually better than American airlines about selling open-jaw tickets without gouging you too badly. You could fly Volaris into Mexico city, work your way across via bus for the 400-500 miles of colonial cities like Patzcuaro, Guanajato, Morelia, etc. and finish up in Guadalajara where you can fly back. Unfortunately rental cars (especially with drop off fees) and tolls and gas are very high. You may have to travel via bus, or rent a car for the day to see something special.

There are many Virgins in Mexico alone. I've seen a number of them. The feast day of the local virgin is a big deal. In Oaxaca they had so many feast days in December, that they were incredibly busy.
Feast of the Immaculate Conception : December 9
Virgin of Guadelupe Day: December 12
Virgin of Soledad Day: December 18
Christmas Day: December 25

I believe this is the 2nd most important Virgin in Mexico
Our Lady of San Juan de los Lagos in Jalisco


Zapopan (major suburb of Guadalajara) in Jalisco


Ocotlán, Tlaxcala, Mexico (1541) in Oaxaca


Soledad in Oaxaca City, Oaxaca


Virgen of Juquila in mountains in Oaxaca


Pátzcuaro: Our Lady of Health in Michoacan


Tlalpujahua: Our Lady of Mount Carmel (El Carmen) in Michoacan


Jacona: Our Lady of the Mandrake Root (La Esperanza) in Michoacan
Wizard
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Wizard
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December 15th, 2011 at 2:55:47 PM permalink
Well, the Virgin Mary really seems to like Mexico, she keeps showing up at different places and times. Meanwhile, just one appearance in the US in Green Bay.

One of my favorite things about Mexico is they are very artistic when it comes to religion. When I went to San Jose del Cabo the week before Christmas several years ago they had very decorative nativity scenes. Not the big obnoxious displays we have up there, but small affectionate displays that paid a lot of attention to detail. I wrote this before, but they don't put the baby in until Christmas.
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Nareed
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December 15th, 2011 at 11:06:23 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Well, as long as the terminology is sufficiently dumbed down for me,



Oh, it's not a failure to understand, but the felling that you're unexpectedly thrust into something odd and alien.

Quote:

I went to a Orthodox Jewish service a few years ago, by the way.



So did I. Family obligation. I swear I should state, boldly, I won't attend any more segregated services...

Quote:

I'd love to ask you questions about it, but I can't remember the details very well, and it was all in Hebrew.



You can ask, but my experience with Orthodox Judaism is really slight. My parents had sense enough to join a Conservative temple. If you're going to attend religious services, you may as well go light. Of course they could have gone Reform. But do ask, odds are I may know something.

Quote:

I'm going to make it to the church someday, and drag you along as my translator.



That would require hazard pay :P
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Wizard
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Wizard
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December 16th, 2011 at 4:07:22 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You can ask, but my experience with Orthodox Judaism is really slight.



Here is what I remember.

We had to walk there, which in our case wasn't far. Once we got there there was no pre-service chit chat, everyone took a seat and I guess were supposed to be silently praying. I did not know what to do with myself during this time and still make half an attempt to blend in. The room was divided between men and women, with about 25 total people.

The service was all singing and reading from the Torah (I assume). It was entirely in Hebrew, so I had no clue about anything. Actually one passage I recognized just from the tempo, Pslam 23.

Afterward there was no post-service chit chat, everybody just went home. On a positive note, I didn't get any stares or made to feel badly because I wasn't going the right thing at the right time. On a negative note, it would have been nice to be welcomed by somebody.

So, I would have to agree with you, if I were to convert I'd go for something more modern. Perhaps whatever branch of Judaism where they give an uplifting sermon in English and there is from friendly chit chat afterward.

If anybody was running this service, I couldn't tell who it was. It was like everybody had memorized what to do when and did it out of habit. There was not even a program to follow, like they have in Christian churches.

So, I'm not sure what my question is, but feel free to give me a commentary on what happened.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
pacomartin
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December 16th, 2011 at 5:32:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

So, I'm not sure what my question is, but feel free to give me a commentary on what happened.


Way over my head. Just want to say that the Torah is only the first five books of the bible (which does not include Psalms). So the reading may have been from the Torah, but the rest of the service was not. I read about a $35 walking tour of crown heights.


Salmos 23
JEHOVA es mi pastor; nada me faltará.
En lugares de delicados pastos me hará yacer: Junto á aguas de reposo me pastoreará.

While the names of God is a complex subject, in English bibles the name of the Jehova is translated as "The Lord" and Elohim as "My God". Jehova is a personal name, and can be pronounced. The true name of God is YHWH for the Tetragrammaton יהוה‎ which cannot be spoken. In Spanish JEHOVA is the preferred pronounciation.

Notice the frequent use of the morphological future tense.

Notice and the use of the verb 'faltar' for "to want". In English we use the Old Norse word 'vant' to mean lacking in something, while we largely use 'fault' when we imply "moral culpability". The word 'faltar' is now a "false friend" in English, even though they came from the same Latin word, but now they mean have developed slightly different meanings in English and Spanish.

Note that the "green pastures" have now become "delicate pastures".

The phrase "leadeth me" in early modern English, becomes the future tense of 'pastorear' or literally 'to shepherd'.

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