Arrested for playing on someones players card
Vegas is full of bus drivers from retirement homes who come in with a stack of retiree's cards.
Someone I know of has an Uncle who plays for a two week visit in Vegas each year, they often play together as part of the family visit but on the last day of his visit it is always the same ritual at half the casinos in town. They switch cards and all those dealers, hosts and pit bosses never bat an eye when he buys in for five grand and presents "his" players club card showing he is Penelope. They play like this for several hours at different outer casinos and inner lower-tier casinos. No one ever calls this beefy cigar reeking guy from Jersey "Penny". No one ever calls Penelope "Jersey Mike" or offers her a chaw of tobaccy.
Absolutely nothing is said by the casino personnel who know that Jersey Mike's niece will get several highly enhanced mailers from the various casinos involved over the next several months.
Quote: ukaserexLet's be honest here. Your friend is getting over on the casino by using other people's free/match play. You say he's risking his own money - he's not. He puts 5 coins in, the machine reimburses those 5 coins, win or lose. So, he is essentially stealing money from the casino. You could argue that if it's not him getting the money, it's his friend/family, so what's the harm?
You are completely incorrect here about how match/free play works. If it is $5 match play, he plays his own $5 and then is able to download $5 (credit) to the machine but he cannot cash it out so it did not reimburse him. In some cases, even after playing his own $5 and then the $5 match, he may not hit a single pay and have lost money. So yes, he is risking his own money. So is he stealing money from the casino in this case? If you could cash out the $5 after playing your own $5, that would be a different story but it doesn't work that way because it isn't $5 they are giving you, it is $5 credit.
Quote: PaigowdanNo; I may be a winner by skill.......I don't expect to win as a goal, I expect to play, and enjoy it.
You contradict yourself right here.
Quote: qwertyocA good friend of mine was just recently arrested for playing on players club cards
Hold it. This isn't about casino rules about using cards. We all know there are rules about that. But... ARRESTED? And having a car towed?
Please IDENTIFY the casino. I want to call them.
Quote: mcallister3200The IRS thinks free slot play has a cash value
since when? the IRS doesn't even tax frequent flyer miles.
Quote: Dalex64"no cash value" just means that it can not be redeemed for cash.
That's right. You can't redeem it for cash because it has no cash value. And that's why it's not taxed.
Quote: mcallister3200Saying that the IRS doesn't consider freeplay to have monetary value but that the income from it is taxable is entirely an issue of semantics.
It is not an issue of semantics. It's a matter of reality.
Free play has no value. But if you play for free and happen to win something, that get's taxed.
Understand?
Okay, try this: you send in your entry to the Publishers Clearinghouse. That entry has no value and is not taxed. But you win a million dollars a year for life, and then you're taxed.
No semantics involved.
The police report indicates that my friend used 12 peoples cards to be awarded $5 in match play for which he played on the machine and was able to cash out for a profit which they are claiming defrauded the casino. He actually had put $200 of his own money into the machine and was playing the cards and when he was approached, they seized his entire ticket which would have been any money he made plus his own money. When he told them $200 was his own money, they claimed they had to keep the cash out ticket for evidence and then arrested him.
Nationally, I believe that Tribal authorities only have jurisdiction over non-indians in matters of Domestic Violence but in 2013, Oklahoma enacted a House Bill (#1871) which allows tribal police to enforce state laws and act as peace officers (essentially making them just like regular officers). Because of this, when they made the arrest, they were acting as a city/municipal police department so I believe if there is a claim for false arrest and wrongful search and seizure he would possibly have a case since it isn't tribal. Also, I think it could be shown that the reason he was arrested was out of a retaliation since the tribal police are mainly funded by the casino.
I am curious on everyone else's thoughts?
Quote: AlanMendelsonHold it. This isn't about casino rules about using cards. We all know there are rules about that. But... ARRESTED? And having a car towed?
Please IDENTIFY the casino. I want to call them.
I think he said an Indian casino in Oklahoma. They can do what they want and you have no recourse.
Who holds the trials, the tribes or the State of Oklahoma?Quote: qwertyocNationally, I believe that Tribal authorities only have jurisdiction over non-indians in matters of Domestic Violence but in 2013, Oklahoma enacted a House Bill (#1871) which allows tribal police to enforce state laws and act as peace officers (essentially making them just like regular officers). Because of this, when they made the arrest, they were acting as a city/municipal police department so I believe if there is a claim for false arrest and wrongful search and seizure he would possibly have a case since it isn't tribal. Also, I think it could be shown that the reason he was arrested was out of a retaliation since the tribal police are mainly funded by the casino.
Your buddy is screwed.
He should hire an attorney familiar with Indian law, one who practices regularly in that particular tribal court, and see what kind of deal can be made to plea bargain and resolve the case.
He was a fool to do what he did, and should not whine unduly after getting caught.
But I am not sure. It's possible he was smarter than that and they have ways of catching you anyway.
Quote: SanchoPanzaWho holds the trials, the tribes or the State of Oklahoma?
This case is actually being brought by the State of Oklahoma. It is not being done as a tribal case. I originally thought it was tribal as well since it happened on tribal land in a tribal casino but it looks like because of the agreement the state has with this tribal police, they acted as Municipal/City police and the charges are by the State so I believe he does have a chance to show this police department acted out of reprisal/retaliation by arresting him for something that is not a crime.
Quote: odiousgambitI keep getting a vision of this guy being caught on camera taking one card out and putting another in, over and over again.
That is exactly what he was doing but SO WHAT! People do it everyday in casino's all over the US. The Casinos allow people to do their spouses cards and don't have an issue with it. It is either against the rules to use another persons card or it isn't and even if it is against the rules, it isn't against the law, there is a big difference. Most casinos in Oklahoma know this and they just issue you a temporary ban from the casino with a threat of a trespassing charge if you return which is what they should have done. They had many other options, they could have used their security surveillance and card tracking to determine all of the cards he was using and just deactivated the cards or given him a ban from the casino but because he was taking money from them, they wanted to retaliate against him by forcing him to be arrested, searching and seizing property on him and from his vehicle, etc. They even tried to force him to stay in jail over night by dragging their feet on requests for a search warrant for the vehicle which kept a bail from being set for over 6 hours.
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/you-down-with-opc/
Quote: qwertyocThat is exactly what he was doing but SO WHAT! People do it everyday in casino's all over the US. The Casinos allow people to do their spouses cards and don't have an issue with it. It is either against the rules to use another persons card or it isn't and even if it is against the rules, it isn't against the law, there is a big difference. Most casinos in Oklahoma know this and they just issue you a temporary ban from the casino with a threat of a trespassing charge if you return which is what they should have done. They had many other options, they could have used their security surveillance and card tracking to determine all of the cards he was using and just deactivated the cards or given him a ban from the casino but because he was taking money from them, they wanted to retaliate against him by forcing him to be arrested, searching and seizing property on him and from his vehicle, etc. They even tried to force him to stay in jail over night by dragging their feet on requests for a search warrant for the vehicle which kept a bail from being set for over 6 hours.
THEFT BY DECEPTION
I would never be afraid to use a family members free play. We spend money, so if a casino wants to bring it, bring it. I'm not afraid if a casino doesn't get an extra nickel or a nickel a week late.
Quote: sabreTHEFT BY DECEPTION
Slot machines cannot be charged with a crime.
I regretted being so emotional almost immediately. Sucks it seems there could be bs precedence because someone winds up in kangaroo court. Really the zombies will echo these stories and public perception could change where people think these things are illegal and immoral when they're not. Just happened to notice a casino requiring the card swiped at a kiosk to redeem.Quote: qwertyocIt seems hard to believe but it is true. He was charged with False Personation and Obtaining Property By False Pretenses and had to take a differed sentence. Cost him over $3k in fines and legal fees and has to call in constantly like a criminal for the next 3 years. It should have been a false arrest and they should be sued!
I can't be prosecuted because we use the same pins and have almost identical names, so oops, reasonable doubt. No matter what may be claimed, those cards are not property of the casino if I'm possessing them. I'm getting a little tired, so not sure how much sense I'm making, but will let this stand to protect whatever makes sense. Casinos are greedy and immoral using deception to make a buck more than anyone else and I won't forget that nor be convinced it untrue.
So using other's card not only violates the casino rule but can also violate the state law?
False Personation and Obtaining Property By False Pretenses seems like legit reasons. I thought using other's card only violate the rule, not the law.
Quote: WangSanJoseI thought using other's card only violate the rule, not the law.
Playing on another players card will probably violate the rule but not the law. If you withdraw any benefits such as free play or comps, you may be violating the law.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI regretted being so emotional almost immediately. Sucks it seems there could be bs precedence because someone winds up in kangaroo court. Really the zombies will echo these stories and public perception could change where people think these things are illegal and immoral when they're not. Just happened to notice a casino requiring the card swiped at a kiosk to redeem.
I can't be prosecuted because we use the same pins and have almost identical names, so oops, reasonable doubt. No matter what may be claimed, those cards are not property of the casino if I'm possessing them. I'm getting a little tired, so not sure how much sense I'm making, but will let this stand to protect whatever makes sense. Casinos are greedy and immoral using deception to make a buck more than anyone else and I won't forget that nor be convinced it untrue.
These are all valid defenses that your high priced attorney will happily explain to the jury at $500 an hour. You may not be found guilty but you most definitely can be prosecuted.
Quote: billryanThese are all valid defenses that your high priced attorney will happily explain to the jury at $500 an hour. You may not be found guilty but you most definitely can be prosecuted.
I would hope that someone caught using anothers' players card, assuming it was intentional, would be convicted of fraud. I mean really, is there anyone here actually saying that the intent is NOT to defraud the casino? Please.....
Quote: SOOPOOI would hope that someone caught using anothers' players card, assuming it was intentional, would be convicted of fraud. I mean really, is there anyone here actually saying that the intent is NOT to defraud the casino? Please.....
If the casino sends(gives) me a $10 gift card, I'm not sure how me regifting it to someone is fraud? If I can buy a $100 Ruth Criss gift certificate from someone, why can't someone buy someone's comps. How are you defrauding the casino?
Quote: billryanIf the casino sends(gives) me a $10 gift card, I'm not sure how me regifting it to someone is fraud? If I can buy a $100 Ruth Criss gift certificate from someone, why can't someone buy someone's comps. How are you defrauding the casino?
If the gift card says $10, and that's it, then re gift it. If the gift card says "to be used only by billyryan", then to me that's fraud. When Ruth's Chris sells the gift certificate, they EXPECT it to be transferred to another person (usually). The reason comps are not for sale is simple. It is in the terms of the player's club that you sign up for and agree to abide by. I'm pretty sure all the clubs have terms like that.
I hope you are assuming there is no permission given to use their card.Quote: SOOPOOI would hope that someone caught using anothers' players card, assuming it was intentional, would be convicted of fraud. I mean really, is there anyone here actually saying that the intent is NOT to defraud the casino? Please.....
If not, then I think you are being crazy regarding this issue.
Quote: AxelWolfI hope you are assuming there is no permission given to use their card.
If not, then I think you are being crazy regarding this issue.
Not crazy at all. There are terms of agreement when you sign up for a players card. I am pretty sure one of the simplest terms is that only you can use the card. If I am correct, then you cannot unilaterally decide to let someone else use your card. And you know that. Whether you choose to ignore that is up to you. Just don't get caught.
What would you say if I let someone who needed health care use my insurance card?
So then who should get in trouble? What if I never signed up for the players but I'm using someone else's card?Quote: SOOPOOIf the gift card says $10, and that's it, then re gift it. If the gift card says "to be used only by billyryan", then to me that's fraud. When Ruth's Chris sells the gift certificate, they EXPECT it to be transferred to another person (usually). The reason comps are not for sale is simple. It is in the terms of the player's club that you sign up for and agree to abide by. I'm pretty sure all the clubs have terms like that.
I didn't agree to the casinos player club terms.
I can't imagine the original card owner can get into any trouble especially if they are not even in the casino.
Quote: SOOPOONot crazy at all. There are terms of agreement when you sign up for a players card. I am pretty sure one of the simplest terms is that only you can use the card. If I am correct, then you cannot unilaterally decide to let someone else use your card. And you know that. Whether you choose to ignore that is up to you. Just don't get caught.
What would you say if I let someone who needed health care use my insurance card?
You need to work on your analogies.
Quote: SOOPOONot crazy at all. There are terms of agreement when you sign up for a players card. I am pretty sure one of the simplest terms is that only you can use the card. If I am correct, then you cannot unilaterally decide to let someone else use your card. And you know that. Whether you choose to ignore that is up to you. Just don't get caught.
What would you say if I let someone who needed health care use my insurance card?
Are a casino’s terms of service for players card use considered laws ? Or just casino rules ?
If the casino was that adamant about only the player whose card it is, using it, then why not require ID everytime someone uses their card for any reason ? Or why not put photos on the card like a DL ? At the 4 casinos I usually go to , I always need to show ID when buying something with the comp dollars on my players card.
Not even in the state of Pennsylvania as previously surmised earlier in this thread
Soopoo your feelings on the subject dont matter. Only the law
Casinos absolutely feel the way you do btw but in the end what casinos feel doesn't matter either
They dont like card counters
They dont like people using other players cards with permission
Too bad. They can go play a violin. But they CANNOT pursue any legal ramifications under the law
I don't disagree, however, everyone should do their own research in their own jurisdiction and confirm the laws and regulations.Quote: darkozUsing another person's players card with their permission is NOT illegal
Not even in the state of Pennsylvania as previously surmised earlier in this thread
Soopoo your feelings on the subject dont matter. Only the law
Casinos absolutely feel the way you do btw but in the end what casinos feel doesn't matter either
They dont like card counters
They dont like people using other players cards with permission
Too bad. They can go play a violin. But they CANNOT pursue any legal ramifications under the law
Quote: AxelWolfI don't disagree, however, everyone should do their own research in their own jurisdiction and confirm the laws and regulations.
That's just silly. Why research something when there are a gazzilion experts just waiting to be helpful.
Remember- if it says so on the internet, does anything else matter?
Quote: billryanThat's just silly. Why research something when there are a gazzilion experts just waiting to be helpful.
Remember- if it says so on the internet, does anything else matter?
No Axel has a valid point. I certainly have not researched 50 states individual laws. Who knows about backwards locales
I can personally attest that it is not illegal in New York or New Jersey or Pennsylvania at the very least
It doesnt even rate as a misdemeanor
Quote: darkozNo Axel has a valid point. I certainly have not researched 50 states individual laws. Who knows about backwards locales
I can personally attest that it is not illegal in New York or New Jersey or Pennsylvania at the very least
It doesnt even rate as a misdemeanor
Maybe Oklahoma is the only state where you can be arrested for using someone else’s players card
I won't claim to be an expert on tribal law. All tribes will have some sort of agreement with the regular law enforcement. The tribe needs to be able to deal with actual crimes like cheating, robbery, murder, or whatever. If the tribe wants state charges they can probably find a way to do it. Things like fraud, identity theft, or whatever was used in this case.
Quote: cyberbabbleThe casino had the choice to not call in the regular police and file charges. There may be more to the story that caused them to react so harshly. How many cards were involved for example? Apparently the guy took multiple people to the casino and got them to sign up for cards, took the cards and started getting the freeplay. The casino wanted to make an example of him. If the guy had had his card and his wifes card, I doubt they would have made an issue of it.
I won't claim to be an expert on tribal law. All tribes will have some sort of agreement with the regular law enforcement. The tribe needs to be able to deal with actual crimes like cheating, robbery, murder, or whatever. If the tribe wants state charges they can probably find a way to do it. Things like fraud, identity theft, or whatever was used in this case.
If he was using cards with permission there was no fraud or theft
Amount of cards doesnt matter. If its not fraudulent to use one friends card its not fraudulent to use ten
I have been caught 3 times in 3 different states with other peoples cards in which I had downloaded offers. Said offers amounting to approximately $200-400 EACH card
One casino confiscated 10 cards
Another 8 cards
And one 24 players cards
You want to know what charges were brought against me in total
Zero!!!!!
Quote: darkoz
Too bad. They can go play a violin. But they CANNOT pursue any legal ramifications under the law
That statement is 100% WRONG. They can definitely pursue legal ramifications although they most likely will not be successful.
Quote: DRichThat statement is 100% WRONG. They can definitely pursue legal ramifications although they most likely will not be successful.
I am talking about criminal charges
They cannot pursue those
Casinos dont get to make up laws or crimes
Perhaps they could try some civil proceedings and as you stated they would most likely not be successful
If the story was true, the casino's name should have been brought into the open and if possible the full names of the management and security officers involved. Public pressure is important. You can't let these people hide behind or under rocks or teepees.
Quote: darkozI am talking about criminal charges
They cannot pursue those
YES THEY CAN!!!
All they have to do is call the police and say that you committed fraud. They then just pursued legal action against you. Whether the District Attorney agrees or not, that doesn't change the fact that they pursed a criminal complaint against you.
Quote: DRichYES THEY CAN!!!
All they have to do is call the police and say that you committed fraud. They then just pursued legal action against you. Whether the District Attorney agrees or not, that doesn't change the fact that they pursed a criminal complaint against you.
ARE YOU KIDDING!!!!
And when I sue them for malicious prosecution i will make a ton of money
They cant MAKE UP CHARGES. Under the law its not fraudulent
If they choose to make up charges they are doing criminality and trust me they will be pursued by anyone with half a brain to the fullest extent of the law
EDIT: a strange woman can say you raped her. So yeah anyone can pursue criminal charges against anyone if thats your point
Quote: darkoz
EDIT: a strange woman can say you raped her. So yeah anyone can pursue criminal charges against anyone if thats your point
Exactly, and you said they couldn't.
Quote: billryanAnd yet another possibly informative thread turns to krap. Thanks ,guys.
Sorry Bill
Its the era of Trump
Quote: darkoz
Amount of cards doesnt matter. If its not fraudulent to use one friends card its not fraudulent to use ten
I have been caught 3 times in 3 different states with other peoples cards in which I had downloaded offers. Said offers amounting to approximately $200-400 EACH card
One casino confiscated 10 cards
Another 8 cards
And one 24 players cards
Do you agree that the casinos are the legal owners of the players cards? Even if they were given to you by a friend/relative? If not, why did you let them confiscate (steal?) them from you? Am I missing something here?
I used to gather up lost cards, but once my collection filled a large shoe box, I stopped. Between them and my trunk of AOL discs, I figure my grand kids will go to college for free, long as its a state school with free tuition. I'd see a lot m ore "lost" cards in AC than I do here.
Why are the casinos the owners of the cards? Does it state that on the card? They own the system, but the card itself?
Quote: SOOPOODo you agree that the casinos are the legal owners of the players cards? Even if they were given to you by a friend/relative? If not, why did you let them confiscate (steal?) them from you? Am I missing something here?
They fall under the heading of Access Devices. Basically any card or other type of access a company allows you for access to their services (thats the official terminology on most lawbooks I have seen)
As such they have the right to request the return of said devices
However you have the right to allow someone to use it under the law
A credit card is a good example. If you allow someone to use your credit card for a purchase that person is not committing fraud nor identity theft. They have your permission to use it
Get it?
EDIT: there are specific laws for access devices but no specific laws for casino cards
I.E. whats legal for credit cards (you can allow a friend to use it) is the same for casino cards. They all fall under access device laws
My guess is such a small percentage of free play is used to begin with and the amount that is abused isn't worth any effort to fix.
Last month, I got a BOGO coupon from Blaze Pizza. It was on a postcard addressed to me and when I went to use it, they asked for my id. I was surprised, to say the least.
Quote: billryanIf you "earned" free play based on past performance, I don't see an issue with giving it to someone else to play. If the casino is sending out money to try and get you to come back, I might see where it is intended for the original person only. Then again, how hard would it be for the casino to require free play to be activated by a staff member at guest services and ask for id. Instead, they send it out in a way that anyone with the pin can use it. It's a problem easily fixed if a casino sees it as being problematic.
My guess is such a small percentage of free play is used to begin with and the amount that is abused isn't worth any effort to fix.
Last month, I got a BOGO coupon from Blaze Pizza. It was on a postcard addressed to me and when I went to use it, they asked for my id. I was surprised, to say the least.
Aside from small new membership offers almost all freeplay is based on past performance
Even welcome back offers and cross-promotional offers are driven by your past performance
A $10 player at ceasars may get $10 for Harrahs while a $100 player gets that same offer at the $100 level
Kind of like when you make a purchase at a rite-aid and get offers for discounts good at all their properties. You earned those regardless of only purchasing at a specific locale
