mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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November 22nd, 2021 at 1:37:44 PM permalink
Stop being intentionally obtuse you KNOW Iím referring to the players card issue when I say ďitísĒ and ďfor that.Ē
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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November 22nd, 2021 at 1:46:04 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact itís never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
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If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
mcallister3200
mcallister3200
Joined: Dec 29, 2013
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November 22nd, 2021 at 1:54:14 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact itís never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
link to original post



If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?
link to original post



Ok maybe it wasnít so obvious....why are you arguing with me for pointing out that it DOESNíT fall under theft by deception?
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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November 22nd, 2021 at 2:12:30 PM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

Quote: darkoz

Quote: mcallister3200

States have theft by deception laws. The fact itís never resulted in a conviction for that anywhere tells everything.
link to original post



If you purchase a television can you give to who you wish?

Of course. You fully own it.

If the casino gives you a free television can you give it away? Of course, because you still fully own it.

For the most part casino comps aren't even free. They are considered rebates on prior purchases (your rating).

If you collect the free TV without making a purchase and give it to me in the parking lot is it any different than if I just came to collect it myself?
link to original post



Ok maybe it wasnít so obvious....why are you arguing with me for pointing out that it DOESNíT fall under theft by deception?
link to original post



Responding to multiple posters at once is all


It was clear to me you and I are in agreement.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
SOOPOO
SOOPOO 
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 22nd, 2021 at 4:14:21 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.


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Would using someone's prescription inhaler with permission be a crime in Soopoolandia?
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Interesting question! No! In general, I am for individual responsibility. I would eliminate the need for a Ďprescriptioní for most drugs. An asthmatic who has been on a rescue inhaler his entire life should not be required to get a prescription for that inhaler. Aspirin has as many if not more side effects but needs no prescription.

But I think Iím every state using the other personís prescription inhaler is a no no.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
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Thanks for this post from:
Hunterhill
November 22nd, 2021 at 7:20:19 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

In the land of SOOPOO would you make it illegal to allow a friend the use of your credit card to fill up your gas tank, and then for you to use the miles/points/free gas earned from that purchase?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
SOOPOO 
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 22nd, 2021 at 7:42:22 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



You are too close to the situation to make a good analogy. How about this.... Using another person's prescription narcotics WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission..... You realize YOU do NOT have the right to give another person 'permission' to use YOUR prescription narcotics? It won't be theft, but it will be some other crime.....
In our society you do NOT have the inalienable right to give something you own to someone else. Guns would be another easy example.

I am NOT saying what you do is illegal, by the way. What I am saying is if I were the one making the laws it would be. Intentionally using a card issued to to someone else without the permission of BOTH the named entity AND the casino/store is FRAUD. Some sort of misdemeanor in the land of SOOPOO.
link to original post

In the land of SOOPOO would you make it illegal to allow a friend the use of your credit card to fill up your gas tank, and then for you to use the miles/points/free gas earned from that purchase?
link to original post



Yes. But I donít do that. All my friends have their own credit cards and want the points for themselves.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
  • Threads: 12
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November 22nd, 2021 at 8:06:00 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:
  • This card remains the property of (casino)
  • Non-transferrable
  • Use is authorized by the named individual only
  • Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever


So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.
May the cards fall in your favor.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 272
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November 22nd, 2021 at 8:50:34 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:
  • This card remains the property of (casino)
  • Non-transferrable
  • Use is authorized by the named individual only
  • Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever


So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.
link to original post



Yes, those are terms and conditions of the club.

There seems some disconnect over what terms and conditions set by any business are versus laws set by the state.

For example it may be terms of service that shoes and shirt must be worn at all times. If you insist on not wearing them, as you are violating the properties terms, they can ask you to leave.

But they can't surround you and hold you until the police arrive to charge you with not wearing shoes and shirt.

(This is where someone will say it's not an inalienable right to take off your clothes because if you run around butt naked you get arrested).

I constantly violate the terms and conditions of casinos. I break all their rules. And I don't care!

What I don't do is break any laws so when the casino catches me, the worst they can do is trespass me and cut my offers

Jail time is off the table.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Marcusclark66
Marcusclark66
Joined: Mar 26, 2020
  • Threads: 33
  • Posts: 1140
November 22nd, 2021 at 10:11:04 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Quote: darkoz

Using another person players card WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission is about the same as driving another person's car WITH permission versus WITHOUT permission.

If you can't grasp why, it beats me
link to original post



I presume you have a player's card or 560 nearby.

I just checked the boilerplate disclaimers on the back of about a dozen of mine.

For the most part, they all say right on them, some collection of the following (paraphrased) points:
  • This card remains the property of (casino)
  • Non-transferrable
  • Use is authorized by the named individual only
  • Subject to (casino's) terms and conditions, which we can change whenever


So, it seems pretty clear that the casino can justifiably say "We gave this card to darkoz to use; Dieter, you're not supposed to use it", take the card from me, show me the parking lot, and express their sincere desire for me to have a nice day somewhere else.

Fraud charges and arrest would seem harsh.
Flagging the account and zeroing the offers (DNI) would be annoying, but within their rights.


To continue the car analogy, yeah, I have a right to be annoyed if Joe loans you my car.
link to original post



And you are pretty spot on, this is almost what happens 99.9% of the times someone is caught using anotherís card.

I have never seen in many years as a security employee/supervisor a Casino patron arrested for the simple use of another personís card unless it was tied to something else much more ďcriminalí and then the charges still didnít include using anotherís card. Unless it was were the person created cards. But then that is sheer criminal and not the use of anotherís card, such as a friend or family member loaning his card out.
Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert. *Certified EMT *Certified Company Firearms Instructor. *Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications. *Domestic UrbanTactical Combat Casualty Expert. *Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess. *Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club. *Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members. *Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer *Baccarat Winning Session Record: 12 out of 12 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.

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