Should a priest gamble?

Quote: Paigowdan

It doesn't matter if you steal alone or in a group. It matters if you steal at all. And while card counting is not stealing, in fact it is a very minor and ineffective trangresion even in my book, - trivial if you will - it does cross the line a breaking the house rules on a publicly offered game.


Because 100% of the players would be at that ATM machine-game, none on the other games, and casino and gambling would cease to exist for YOU gamblers.
That Is Why. Matilda - What can you deduce as to what will happen??!!

No, it is not - and no one in gaming said it was your fault.
We said that the game of Blackjack continues on because MOST players play it in good faith, and MANY counters are so grossly incompetent that they give their money to ther casinos when trying to break the rules anyway, and with both the players and the house making their money at various times when played by the rules, or even not by the rules. Let me be CLEAR - Blackjack is not going away. We just deal with counters the way we deal with card counting, and I have been VERY clear on how casinos do this.

No, the latest financial reports show that Vegas had bounced back to it's level of "pre-recession" performance, and in spite of even more out-of-state casinos coming online.
We'll always have games of skill: Poker, Pai Gow, and yes, even Blackjack. It's not going anywhere. And neither are you - as our customers. People who bitch most about the evil casinos ARE our biggest customers.

Steppenwolf: God Damn the Pusher man.
If we insist at looking at it all this way...

So I gather you practice Jainism and in particular Asteya. (this thread is about religion lest we forget)

No...the religion that I practice, one that is most heavily ridiculed around here, is casino gaming.
So...I practice:
1. Pai Gow Poker and Dice Dealing at the Fiesta Hendeson Casino, Five nights a week. Done that for years, I tell ya. Come in and throw a dart at me - or buy in and play with us for a while.
2. Casino Game design: my EZ Pai Gow poker now has 50 installs, mostly in San Diego, Fresno, and Sacremento (with no returns from any casino - very, very good start), with another bastard child on the way.
3. Gambling for myself. Mostly craps, Pai Gow Poker, Three card poker (I like that little ditty of a really successful game!), Blackjack Switch (I salute Geoff), and $1 video Keno.
4. Religion: I'm married to a Thai woman, and I sometimes come with her to the Buddha temple. Many here in Las Vegas, mostly Thai and some Chinese. But her religion really seems to be Amway.

> and $1 video Keno.
Ain't that a 12 percent house edge or something?

>But her religion really seems to be Amway.
Don't you mean Scamway?

Quote: Paigowdan

It doesn't matter if you steal alone or in a group. It matters if you steal at all.

No. It matters if you get caught. Stealing alone or in a group just alters the risk factors about who can drop a dime on you and who you can roll over onto to get a better deal with the DA.
If there are others involved then you have to remember about that Do Unto Others rule which is Do Unto Others Before They Do Undo You.

" It doesn't matter if you steal alone or in a group. It matters if you steal at all. And while card counting is not stealing, in fact it is a very minor and ineffective trangresion even in my book, - trivial if you will - it does cross the line a breaking the house rules on a publicly offered game."
Just what house rule says you can not use your brain when playing Bj, DAN. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: FleaStiff

...and $1 video Keno? Ain't that a 12 percent house edge or something?

Yes it is. I do this to keep my comps account alive, and have FUN! I thow in a $20, bet $1 a hand, hit 5 of 7 with a take down, or leave losing a $20 and any worries.
I gotta explain something about the technical house edge, and that is, as a game designer - and a bastard who's been in this business a LONG time, that is how the industry survives. I've got no problem with a house edge, and I play craps, Pai Gow Poker, and Baccarat on table games because I know it's good house-versus-player house edge. But on slots, I don't always play VP, I play Video Keno, because I KNOW the slots department is more quickly banging up my comps, so a $20 coin-in on VK is like a bigger coin-in in VP.
1. I don't worry about the house edge, I EXPECT a casino should have a > 0% house edge. I seek games that I like to play, that also have a fair house edge. I make enough money from the casino operations side, I don't need to cheat or see casino cheating, and I advise if a game is "dumping" to investigate, as if a game is acting as if it had a negative house edge.
2. If I honestly see a negative casino house edge - for a positive player house edge (for example: a game mis-design that was installed at a casino, or a casino player who is hold-carding or capping bets, etc), I report it as a game design error, or as a cheat team on the casino floor, no matter where I play or deal, or have a game installed. I do this in support of the gaming industry I am a part of. Mike Shackleford also does this too, but only if he is getting paid as a consultant to do this. Mike works both sides of the fence without any bias, unless a bias is introduced, precisely because he is a consultant, and I understand that. Me, as a gaming industry worker "pit worker" and game designer, - I am biased going in:
3. All games must have a house edge, the smaller the better so as long as it is present; and:
4. No cheating or nefarious ploys are to be used on either side, because a small house edge is enough to provide for fair gambling, when you consider that dealers and slot techs who keep this industry alive make minimum wage plus tips, and;
5. A small house edge is NOT unfair, guddambit: variance or luck or the hand of God makes for winners and losers; a small house edge is to replace a $100 door fee if you want to enter to gamble. If you were to run a business, ANY busines, would you run it a cost or at a fair profit to keep it running - and also take shit from "patrons" if you had to explain that you had to pay your workers and pay your light bill?? No, you would not.
6. As a casino worker, I HAVE to look at hole-carders, bet cappers, or card counters the way a slot technician looks at someone sticking a coat-hanger into a slot machine to try to make it pay off: as just wrong.

Quote: FleaStiff

But her religion [Dan's wife] really seems to be Amway. Don't you mean Scamway?

No. Most of the products she uses and has us buy are really legitimate, very high quality stuff, but some could be better. I like many of their products, and I like retail sellers bypassing large outlets for the same stuff, but dislike the "Scientology" like sales meetings she has to attend.

Quote: buzzpaff

" It doesn't matter if you steal alone or in a group. It matters if you steal at all. And while card counting is not stealing, in fact it is a very minor and ineffective trangresion even in my book, - trivial if you will - it does cross the line a breaking the house rules on a publicly offered game."
Just what house rule says you can not use your brain when playing Bj, DAN. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's about playing by the rules.
If you are NOT using your brains with conscience, then you are not using your brain from the get-go, okay?

I ask again What rule are you talking about ? Conscience do not seem to be a rule written by the house and or gaming?
WHAT F***ING RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dan " it does cross the line at breaking the house rules on a publicly offered game." In case you forgot LOL

Yes it does.
Conscience means:
1. No cheating on a table game, even if you could make more money. People have tried this shit in casinos. It also means:
2. Not sticking a coat-hanger or other more modern device to make a slot machine falsely make it pay out, without saying "show me the house rules that says I couldn't DO THAT!" People have tried this shit, and use that argument. They get jail time. Conscience also means:
3. NOT grabbing the cocktail waitreses breasts or ass because she is pretty and you think you can do whatever the hell you want at a casino with a drink in your hand and a bet on the table, then saying "Show the the house rules that said I couldn't DO THAT!!"
4. The floorman flat-betting me when I was card-counting, then he asked me to leave - of all things.

Conscience doesn't have to be a written house rule in a casino - or anywhere else.
It means we have to act as if we have had home training no matter where we may be, or where we may operate.

Casino patrons can get that nuts at a casino; this board is a very small example.

It can get like a Seinfeld episode.

Ok Dan I see a lot of little cards come out on the first round of play and I raise my bet. Then I am either being immoral or violating a house rule that does not exist. You usually have a valid point, but your position on BJ is just asinine !

" It's about playing by the rules." Again Show me the rule. DAN No some convoluted expression of morality.
SHOW ME THE RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: FleaStiff

No. It matters if you get caught [stealing]. Stealing alone or in a group just alters the risk factors about who can drop a dime on you and who you can roll over onto to get a better deal with the DA.

Beautiful.
To finally hear admitted at the Wizard of Vegas: "It's NOT stealing unless you get caught!" exemplifies my views of what we have to put up in the gaming industry running casino games. I do not think this is WWJD. It's a tough industry to work in.

Mike or FrGamble - a comment on this now?

SHOW ME THE F***ING RULE OR SHUT UP !!!

Quote: Paigowdan

To finally hear admitted at the Wizard of Vegas: "It's NOT stealing unless you get caught!" exemplifies my views of what we have to put up in the gaming industry running casino games.

This is necessary to balance the over zealous people who work in the gaming industry that believe if a player learns how to play a game, or even if they get lucky and win, then they are a cheater and stealing from the casino. This is what the customers have to put up with to play in a casino.

Started a new thread for this topic here: Is Counting Cheating?

AMEN !

Quote: Ayecarumba

Started a new thread for this topic here: Is Counting Cheating?

Thanks

And surely DAN will post the rule on that thread ??

Quote: kp

This is necessary to balance the over zealous people who work in the gaming industry that believe if a player learns how to play a game, or even if they get lucky and win, then they are a cheater and stealing from the casino. This is what the customers have to put up with to play in a casino.

No, it is not.
It takes about 500 hours of deliberate practice to learn how to count cards, discreetly hole card, or perform some other casino cheating manoeuver, knowing full well what you are trying to accomplish and what the rules are.

By contrast, - and believe me - casinos love our new players, and give them EVERY break on any innocent mistake. I reset hands all the time when a player mis-sets a hand in paigow so they could win. But it goes further from there...

...Casinos...with new customers walking in..."Can ya teach me how to play?? Can you give me chips for $100 dollars??"
...Of course - and Welcome to the East Side Cannery/Palace Station/Fiesta Henderson/Gree Valley Ranch!

With our new players: "Here's a new Stations/MGM/Harrahs/Boyd Gaming Tee-shirt/Windbreaker, etc...WELCOME to East Side Cannery/etc...!!!"

Reset a hand?: "No problem, - reset the hand and PAY the player" (if he is NOT a cheater or veteran player making a false mistake...)

etc.

I wonder, how often do you guys here at this board play table games?

Quote: Paigowdan

No, it is not.

Yes, it is.

Na, nana na, na.

Getting back to the original question... My temple recently raised the membership rates... as the cost of a Rabbi exceeds 100k per year now.... I was stunned too... So all members are paying the Rabbi's salary.... And I have no idea what a Rabbi should make.... or how much 'fun' he should have... or how expensive a restaurant he should go to... or how nice a golf course he should play at... But I do know, even if I can't exactly explain why, that as I had to reach deeper into my pocket to support my temple, I just don't want to see me Rabbi yelling for a hard 8....., while I perceive that I don't have enough for those fun but costly inside bets....

Quote: kp

Yes, it is.

Na, nana na, na.

I love it! :)

Quote: SOOPOO

Getting back to the original question... My temple recently raised the membership rates... as the cost of a Rabbi exceeds 100k per year now.... I was stunned too... So all members are paying the Rabbi's salary.... And I have no idea what a Rabbi should make.... or how much 'fun' he should have... or how expensive a restaurant he should go to... or how nice a golf course he should play at... But I do know, even if I can't exactly explain why, that as I had to reach deeper into my pocket to support my temple, I just don't want to see me Rabbi yelling for a hard 8....., while I perceive that I don't have enough for those fun but costly inside bets....

That's a little different, though. Membership in a shul is notoriously expensive, but not mandatory for attendance unless it's a major holiday and there's limited seating. I dated a Jewish guy years ago and went to shul with him every Friday night and Saturday morning. He never did join the congregation, but everyone behaved as though we were both full members (and I'm not even Jewish), allowing us to share in the free meals every Saturday and even making special announcements from the Bima on our birthdays. So I've always been inclined to think of temple membership fees as being voluntary, and optional.

If your invisible friend who lives in the clouds above thinks that it's okay then it's okay. There are some people who may say that they share your faith in the same invisible friend that would disagree with your assessment. They obviously are wrong since it's your invisible friend that matters to you and their invisible friend is basically there for them only (again, they may disagree with that but that's why we have wars).

So ask yourself, look deep into your heart and contemplate what would your invisible friend think. By posting the question here instead of the Wizard of Vatican forum, I think I already know what your invisible friend thinks about gambling.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. 80% of gamblers' sessions have points in which they are ahead, comfortably ahead - could be more aptly put as, "they WERE ahead."

So to you, being ahead at one point is the same
as leaving the casino ahead. When 95% of people
who leave are behind, they're really not behind
because at one point they were ahead. Remind
me never to buy a used car from you.

Quote: Paigowdan

3. All games must have a house edge, the smaller the better so as long as it is present

Casinos are entertainment venues, they aren't there
to make people money. When somebody figures out
a way to beat their edge, they go bonkers and over
react, like they did to card counting in the 60's. The
big problem is, they're so two faced about it now.
They say 'we love winners', when the exact opposite
is true. They hate winners. Casinos truly believe that
every dollar you bring into a casino is theirs, they
just have to find a way to get it away from you. They
call card counters cheats, but in their heart of hearts,
they look at all winners as cheating them out of what
is rightfully theirs.

Bob,
1. Casinos trust the math that comes from people like Mike. They resent neither the winners or losers, because the casinos always take their cut through the house edge. Casinos will always make money if they have players, bothe winning and losing. We take our house edge cut from both, - so...it doesn't matter who wins or loses, now does it?
2. What really goes on at casinos is that it is the PLAYERS are exchanging THEIR wins and loses among one another, with the house taking a house edge cut from the action. Now you, as our friend, haven't figured that out yet. We want you to. Casinos only charge a house edge to actually let players play against one another with the house edge covering dealer and operational expenses.
3. Casinos don't go bonkers, as you say, when people win. We LIKE winners more than the losers, because when someone wins big - well, not only have we taken out our cut, our business goes up further, and we make even more money! Yeaaah! We even advertise in the newspapers about our winners, and how happy they are! Funny how THAT works out. You would think that it is just to piss you off, Bob, but it is not. People come to us for entertainment, giving us their money - like they do for shows and restaurants too, - but there they can ONLY lose 100% of what they had shelled out. Now that doesn't seem fair - does it? Better to go to a casino!
4. But...when they give us their money, not only do they have great entertainment - they have a great chance to win it back while having fun - that's how it works!
5. and No bob - we never laugh in our customers face, as we love our customers - and let them laugh with us!!...
6. However, and in spite of what we think of you at this board, we do love you, we hate to see you in pain about these evil casinos and all that. I and I want you to know that I will never laugh at you to your face. Or behind your back, because you seem so bitter and miserable, here at this forum, I can only thin that gambling has made you miserable in life, and it makes me sad.
7. So, if gambling is not working out for you, and is making you miserable, you may want to call these people, because we care about you: Is gambling making you a miserable? GA can help!

Quote: Paigowdan

Bob,
1. Casinos trust the math that comes from people like Mike. They resent neither the winners or losers

They hate winners so much that they've gone to
extraordinary lengths to keep people in the casino
and keep them playing as long as possible. Huge
thick books have been written for casinos, detailing
all the tricks of the trade.

We LIKE winners

As long as the winner loses the money back.

But...when they give us their money, not only do they have great entertainment - they have a great chance to win it back while having fun

I've been going to casinos since 1976, and never get
tired of the casinos company line: "We make losing fun!"
What a joke..

and No bob - we never laugh in our customers face

Uh Huh. Hang out on the dealer forums once in awhile
and listen to what your cohorts really say about the beloved
customers. Who are you kidding

I can only think that gambling has made you miserable in life, and it makes me sad.

Don't be sad, Dan, for the 100th time, I never gamble. As soon
as I walk in the door, I own something. What do you think
that something is?

Quote: EvenBob

They hate winners so much that they've gone to
extraordinary lengths to keep people in the casino
and keep them playing as long as possible. Huge
thick books have been written for casinos, detailing
all the tricks of the trade.

You're full of crap. I've been in this business for years, and no dealer or floorman (including myself) ever deals with a secret "dark arts" bible to keep players playing as long as possible using malicious dark-arts techniques. Casino players play as long as they see fit at the tables without any security guards keeping them prisoner, and they leave as they see fit. I think you are confusing the gaming industry with the church of Scientology.
But if you can, Bob, perhaps you can post a link or a copy of this mysterious dark-arts evil casino book. I know my evil shift manager Mr. Lord Voldemort refuses to release the copy of the evil casino text.
Or perhaps you can reveal some of these inner evil secrets to illuminate us on your next post.
Speaking for myself, Bob, I am truly amazed at some of your fantastic theories, just asking for some final proof.

Quote: EvenBob

We LIKE winners. As long as the winner loses the money back.

They usually do, but not always, - like we care what the hell anyone does with their money when the walk out the door. Do you honestly think casinos send goon squads to stick up the winner on their way home? The Winner of a $172,000 jackpot on the EZ Pai Gow progressive at Cannery Casino seems to have paid off her house - do you honestly think she's going to mortgage it back to anyone? Ahh...but maybe if the Cannery Group gets ahold of the Lord Voldemort book....

Quote: EvenBob

I've been going to casinos since 1976, and never get
tired of the casinos company line: "We make losing fun!"
What a joke..

I have never heard of such a daffy casino sales pitch except from a clown like you. So I'll give you credit for saying that precious gem here first at the WizardofVegas.
But Bob - what would your own personal sales pitch be? "Hi! I'm Bob! And I'm so miserable about fun and exciting gambling, I'll make any gamling experience or discussion miserable here at the wizard of vegas - including winning - because I'm that kind of miserable guy!" [Big smiling photo of you in your trailer park home.]

>>I can only think that gambling has made you miserable in life, and it makes me sad. ]highlighted yellow>>

Quote: EvenBob

Don't be sad, Dan, for the 100th time, I never gamble.

But you just said you've been going to casinos since 1976, now you say you never gamble. Clearly you are lying about something.
But I believe you when you said you never gamble....
Yeah, - and it shows. You don't know a damn thing about gambling or the gaming industry, and like I said - it shows.

Quote: EvenBob

As soon as I walk in the door, I own something. What do you think
that something is?

My guess it's a 45-year old single wide trailer home, clearly.
Along with the Complete Collection of Jeff Foxworthy's greatest comedy hits.
And let us not forget: The legends of NASCAR commemorative dinner plates.
And framed photographs of your wife - who is also your first cousin.
Just my guess.

Quote: Paigowdan

You're full of crap. I've been in this business for years, and no dealer or floorman (including myself) ever deals with a secret "dark arts" bible

Did I say that? I'm talking about decor, carpeting, noise
and distraction levels, scantily clad waitresses, etc.
Everything there is designed and planned to keep the
sucker, er, beloved customer there as long as possible
and give him every possible chance to lose.

Quote: Paigowdan

Do you honestly think casinos send goon squads to stick up the winner on their way home?

They sent a private jet to Sacramento in 1994 to pick up
my uncle who had won 90K the week before. Sounds
like the goon squad to me.They lovedhim winning so much,
they just couldn't wait to get him back.

Quote: Paigowdan

I have never heard of such a daffy casino sales pitch.

Hey, its not my pitch, its yours. "We make losing fun!" is just what
the casinos sell. They offer nothing but negative expectation games,
so they have to make losing fun, thats what people do in casinos most
of the time. Lose.

Quote: Paigowdan

But you just said you've been going to casinos since 1976, now you say you never gamble. Clearly you are lying

Listen carefully. When I enter a casino, I never gamble because
I own something there, for the length of my visit. When I leave,
its yours again.

Quote: EvenBob

Did I say that? I'm talking about decor, carpeting, noise
and distraction levels, scantily clad waitresses, etc.
Everything there is designed and planned to keep the
sucker, er, beloved customer there as long as possible
and give him every possible chance to lose.



They sent a private jet to Sacramento in 1994 to pick up
my uncle who had won 90K the week before. Sounds
like the goon squad to me.They loved him winning so much,
they just couldn't wait to get him back.





Hey, its not my pitch, its yours. "We make losing fun!" is just what
the casinos sell. They offer nothing but negative expectation games,
so they have to make losing fun, thats what people do in casinos most
of the time. Lose.





Listen carefully. When I enter a casino, I never gamble because
I own something there, for the length of my visit. When I leave,
its yours again.

Quote: s2dbaker

If your invisible friend who lives in the clouds above thinks that it's okay then it's okay. There are some people who may say that they share your faith in the same invisible friend that would disagree with your assessment. They obviously are wrong since it's your invisible friend that matters to you and their invisible friend is basically there for them only (again, they may disagree with that but that's why we have wars).

So ask yourself, look deep into your heart and contemplate what would your invisible friend think. By posting the question here instead of the Wizard of Vatican forum, I think I already know what your invisible friend thinks about gambling.

Belittling and ridiculing other people makes you look stupid, not them.

Quote: s2dbaker

If your invisible friend who lives in the clouds above thinks that it's okay then it's okay.

That language is uncalled for. The father asked a legitimate question and phrased it politely.

Although it is your opinion that the father posted a question on this forum to get the answer he wanted, I think it is also fair to say he posted the question here because he was curious if he would get flack from people who like gambling. It is sort of a litmus test. If people on this forum don't think he should gamble, then what would happen if he asks his parishioners?

Just tell him "no, I don't think it is appropriate". Don't talk about an "invisible friend who lives in the clouds".

Religious people always get stuck with the stereotype of being self-righteous, close-minded, condescending etc. etc. yet over and over again in these forums it seems like all of the above is coming from mainly non religious people.

I like soccer and I like my invisible friend ItsCalledSoccer, I've never seen him but I know he is real. Thanks again so much for everyone's comments, it's like a whole bunch of invisible friends. A nod and welcome form the Wizard feels like its coming from my bishop.

I should let you know where I stand now after the discussions so far. I think this is not something I can take lightly and I have to be super careful. Practically any gambler should be careful and I will find new ways to be held accountable and as always be open with mentors and close friends about my decision to gamble recreationally and responsibly. I also did hear some salient and spiritual points from the oft maligned EvenBob that I took to heart. I will never wear my clerical collar to a casino and l don't think I would ever volunteer the information that I am a priest at the tables, but no longer do I feel I need to hide it like the third secret of Fatima (sorry inside Catholic humor). I'm going to continue my fun hobby of gambling. Anyway thanks again, may I suggest we all go over to defend our right to count cards on another thread now. Peace and blessings!

" Reset a hand?: "No problem, - reset the hand and PAY the player" (if he is NOT a cheater or veteran player making a false mistake...)

Please define false mistake PLEASE

Quote: FrGamble

I think this is not something I can take lightly and I have to be super careful.

Bingo! Seriously, stick to bingo, you won't regret it..

@FrGamble - Staying on topic, and keep in mind this is only my personal belief, I would say it's not a good idea. See, I don't know The Book chapter, line and verse, but it seems I know more than the religious people in my life. But if you were to ask me before this conversation started, I'd assume yeah, it's against the teachings of the Bible. I've since found out that isn't so, but if I as a semi-learned non-religious person thought it was, I imagine there are less-learned religious people who would think the same. Regardless of your intentions, your possibly tiny gambling bankroll, even if you spent $1 a week on a scratch off, some people are going to look down on it. You know, the busy-bodies. The 1% who have to be in everyones business and start the gossip.

There's also, like some have said, those that look at gambling as a terrible vice. We know it isn't necessarily so, but we all know at least one person who thinks anyone who places a bet is a scoundrel. Could there be an issue with these people's outlooks coupled with the nature of your title?

In the end, though, it's pretty much up to you. I've known those holy men who hold a strict congregation, uptight, not much fun to be around. The "holier than thou" types. Then there's guys like the one who married me and my wife, a laid back type of guy with a laid back church attitude, still a "Father", but one you could come to with anything. If he hit the casino, I don't imagine a word would be said. If the other guy did, boy,...he'd probably catch fire in the foyer and his flock would call for his head. It's pretty much like this discussion. Some types don't care, some care a whole bunch. Figure out which type are yours and go from there.

Gee Dan I missed your posting the rule that says I and the Wiz are cheaters. Please post again. Thank You.

Quote: Paigowdan

2. What really goes on at casinos is that it is the PLAYERS are exchanging THEIR wins and loses among one another, with the house taking a house edge cut from the action. Now you, as our friend, haven't figured that out yet. We want you to. Casinos only charge a house edge to actually let players play against one another with the house edge covering dealer and operational expenses.

Well, now I'm thoroughly confused, and not about existential or ethical matters (as the nature of this thread might suggest, or have suggested, several pages ago), but about how pari-mutuel betting differs from any other variety, in particular what goes on in casinos. I had understood the betting in casinos as being between players and the house, making it distinct from pari-mutuel betting. If it's between players and each other, I'm not sure that it is.

My understanding was that the whole idea behind the pari-mutuel concept, in fact the meaning of the French words "pari-mutuel", is "between us", that is, the betting that goes on at racetracks is between the bettors, who exchange wins and losses while the track covers its overhead in the form of a Takeout. What you seem to be saying is that, in casinos, the betting also takes place between bettors, while the casino covers its overhead in the form of HE (or rake, in poker). If that's how it is, then I'm not seeing how these two systems differ.

Wow, with the way this thread started out I never would have guessed that it would have left me baffled at whether the pari-mutuel concept is, in fact, unique to racetracks and certain types of slot machine.

Pari-mutuel properly refers to those games in which all of the player's wins and losses come from a pool of money funded by those players. One easy test of whether a game is pari-mutuel is whether the amount won by a player depends on how many other players are playing and how much they've bet. Such games include poker, bingo, some lottery games, most races, etc. Neither house-banked table games nor slot machines qualify -- virtually all such games are simply a question of whether the player wins or loses, and both the probability and the amount of a win are predetermined.

Dan is somewhat correct in the aggregate: the net effect of thousands of players is, on the average, approximated by the house edge. However, there is a key distinction and that is variance. If casinos operated according to a pari-mutuel system, there would be no variance in the casino's revenue stream but for swings in overall wagering action. It would be operated like a poker room or bingo hall, making a small amount in fees (rake, vig, etc.) but otherwise not participating in the outcome. In other words, in a true pari-mutuel system, it is impossible for the operator to lose.

Of course, casinos lose (in the aggregate) all the time, even over periods of weeks or months. The story about the down month by the Tropicana in Atlantic City when the high-roller beat the blackjack tables is ample proof of that.

My understanding is that casinos in Macau force the variance down by putting a limit on the table in baccarat. The players must bet on opposite sides if the difference gets too large.

Quote: pacomartin

Just tell him "no, I don't think it is appropriate". Don't talk about an "invisible friend who lives in the clouds".

you are right, it is much easier to type "God" than to spell out the much more accurate description, "invisible friend who lives on a cloud".

I've been away a few days, so I didn't feel like reading thru all the arguments with The Morality Police.

But my feelings are this:

I see no reason why a religious leader should be expected to refrain from certain activities that are not forbidden.

I voted, "It's Okay."


That said, I think this could be more of a personal dilema.



Fr Gamble --

When you're not on the job, do you continue to wear the collar?
Specifically, do you wear it when playing golf? Would you wear it when visiting a casino?

I don't care if you wear it or not when off-duty, but if the golf and casino questions get different answers, then it might be best if you don't gamble.


As has been mentioned here many times, in a casino, ethics tend to take a beating. How would you feel if you were witness, or beneficiary, of a dealer's mistake?

Restraints on foul language also go out the door. If your only reason to refrain from wearing the collar at a casino, is to avoid having to repeatedly hear something followed by "Sorry Father", consider the alternative - because you're going to be subjected to that language whether you're wearing the collar or not. Hell, Heck, language gets a bit salty here too! (Sorry Father).

I. like DJ, have been away for a few days also and didnt have the enegy to read all 15 pages. Having said that, different religions treat Priesthood differently. I am Greek Orthodox. Our priests enjoy all of the vices of the common man but are obviously not supposed to take it to excess or embarrass the church, their employer. I mean they can marry, have children, drink(although probably not if its in an official capacity). One of best friends father is my priest and we have hung out at the beach many times. He drinks scotch, smokes cigars, goes on romantic dates with his wife, and him and his wife travel to Vegas 2 to 3 times a year. In fact they just got back last week. So as far as I am concerned go for it, no problems here.

I wasn't sure if a new thread was called for, but this recent story in the LVRJ should serve as a cautionary example to FrGamble: LVRJ Article on gambling addicted priest Strong, open, responsible accountability can only be a good thing in this area. The pitfalls are deep and numerous.

Of course, the same is true with many other earthly activities. Accountability, good. Secrets, bad.

I have no objections to Priests or to any religious leader gambling. I was never taught that gambling was against any religious law or was even a crime when in a legal casino. I have seen religious leaders of many faiths in casinos gambling. I was never offended by it.

After all, wasn't the Church the first to have Bingo parlors? Today, there are casinos invading your turf.

The case in the news might have some "wow factor" because a Priest was involved in a fraud to finance his gambling, and that was wrong. But would the story have gotten as much play in the media if the gambler owned an accounting firm, or was a lawyer, or owned a chain of dry cleaners? I mention those three examples because I know of three gamblers who took money from their businesses. One was an accountant, one was a lawyer and one owned a chain of dry cleaners.

The problem is the addiction and not that the addicted gambler was a religious leader.

Quote: AlanMendelson

The problem is the addiction and not that the addicted gambler was a religious leader.

Stealing from the Church to feed a gambling habit
is appalling. They do lots of good works with that
money, he should be horse whipped.

To the OP's question, as long as he plays by the rules and pays his gambling debts, I see no problem with a priest engaging gambling either at a casino or elsewhere. I don't see any reason why a priest should be barred from any lawful activity at all, assuming he engages in it voluntarily.