Should a priest gamble?
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 | 30 votes (83.33%) | ||
| | 3 votes (8.33%) | ||
| | 3 votes (8.33%) |
36 members have voted
September 12th, 2011 at 6:58:07 PM
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I have been amazed at the topics that have been discussed on this forum in the short time I have been a member. I have also been impressed by the way in which they have been discussed (for the most part). I thought this forum was just going to allow me to be part of a discussion on gambling, but it has been much more - thanks for that. With a little bit of trepidation but with confidence in previous strange questions I wanted to ask if you thought a priest should try his luck at gambling?
I am a Catholic priest and have for the last couple of years been studying gambling. I think I was intrigued by the idea of trying to become an advantage player; to figure out a strategy, or develop a skill, that could give me a fighting chance at the tables. It has been a challenge but also fun. I've found the dealers and other players very kind and casinos nice places, not dens of iniquity. It should go without saying that I am talking about responsible gambling, with my own saved up money. This limits me to trips that are about twice a month at most. I put money aside for this hobby and my losses are comparable to if I played 18 holes every week at a nice place. Also obviously I restrict myself to games that have the lowest possible house edge like blackjack, video poker, and craps (yes, I believe in dice setting which I've come to find out is as controversial as God's existence).
As you can tell I think I am comfortable with the idea and so is the teaching of the Church (see CCC #2413, quoted below). However I am very concerned about what others may think. I don't want to scandalize people, faithful parishioners or unbelievers. Therefore I ask you, is it okay in your opinion for a priest or any other minister to gamble responsibly if their religion doesn't explicitly ban the practice?
"Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement. Unfair wagers and cheating at games constitute grave matter, unless the damage inflicted is so slight that the one who suffers it cannot reasonably consider it significant." (CCC #2413)
I am a Catholic priest and have for the last couple of years been studying gambling. I think I was intrigued by the idea of trying to become an advantage player; to figure out a strategy, or develop a skill, that could give me a fighting chance at the tables. It has been a challenge but also fun. I've found the dealers and other players very kind and casinos nice places, not dens of iniquity. It should go without saying that I am talking about responsible gambling, with my own saved up money. This limits me to trips that are about twice a month at most. I put money aside for this hobby and my losses are comparable to if I played 18 holes every week at a nice place. Also obviously I restrict myself to games that have the lowest possible house edge like blackjack, video poker, and craps (yes, I believe in dice setting which I've come to find out is as controversial as God's existence).
As you can tell I think I am comfortable with the idea and so is the teaching of the Church (see CCC #2413, quoted below). However I am very concerned about what others may think. I don't want to scandalize people, faithful parishioners or unbelievers. Therefore I ask you, is it okay in your opinion for a priest or any other minister to gamble responsibly if their religion doesn't explicitly ban the practice?
"Games of chance (card games, etc.) or wagers are not in themselves contrary to justice. They become morally unacceptable when they deprive someone of what is necessary to provide for his needs and those of others. The passion for gambling risks becoming an enslavement. Unfair wagers and cheating at games constitute grave matter, unless the damage inflicted is so slight that the one who suffers it cannot reasonably consider it significant." (CCC #2413)
September 12th, 2011 at 7:07:11 PM
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Quote: FrGambleTherefore I ask you, is it okay in your opinion for a priest or any other minister to gamble responsibly if their religion doesn't explicitly ban the practice?
You have a couple of college degree's in religion, and
you're asking a bunch of laymen if its OK to gamble?
You're the priest, surely someone has asked you if its
OK. What did you tell them?
Unless you have the edge over the game and the casino,
put your money in the collection plate. You're helping
NOBODY by giving it to a greedy casino. You can't win
if you play on a regular basis. Do what your religion
dictates, give your money to the poor.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 7:18:04 PM
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As someone who is reasonably close to the Catholic Church (I taught catechism, gave readings, sent my daughter to Catholic schools, my wife goes to church & rosary every day) I think it's morally OK. I think you're asking about more than if I think it's OK, though. You're asking, "Is there any perception of impropriety or immorality?" And I still say, no. Most people understand that priests are people.
But you should be careful. If 99% of your congregation agrees with me, that means 1% does not. The 99% will be silent, but there's sure to be busybodies in the other 1%. If you have 2500 parishioners, 25 all ascandal about the betting friar can be a problem, even if the betting is not.
And, you owe it to yourself to watch Owning Mahowney. Good men go bad sometimes.
But you should be careful. If 99% of your congregation agrees with me, that means 1% does not. The 99% will be silent, but there's sure to be busybodies in the other 1%. If you have 2500 parishioners, 25 all ascandal about the betting friar can be a problem, even if the betting is not.
And, you owe it to yourself to watch Owning Mahowney. Good men go bad sometimes.
A falling knife has no handle.
September 12th, 2011 at 7:18:06 PM
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If you're comfortable with your parishioners knowing you gamble, then I think it's okay. Because they will find out.
Don't listen to EvenBob. You get paid a salary, you can do with it what you wish. The issue is, maybe you won't continue to receive that salary if people "out" you.
Don't listen to EvenBob. You get paid a salary, you can do with it what you wish. The issue is, maybe you won't continue to receive that salary if people "out" you.
September 12th, 2011 at 7:45:39 PM
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Quote: FrGamble(yes, I believe in dice setting which I've come to find out is as controversial as God's existence).
Not really. There's a remote chance dice setting may work.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 12th, 2011 at 7:54:48 PM
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All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. Or something ...
September 12th, 2011 at 7:56:53 PM
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Quote: FinsRule
Don't listen to EvenBob. You get paid a salary, you can do with it what you wish.
Actually, the religion of which he is a major player in,
says this:
'And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has” (Luke 12:42-44).
Thats a parable from Jesus himself. Being a wise steward
of your money does not include squandering it away in a
casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 8:03:50 PM
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Quote: EvenBobActually, the religion of which he is a major player in,
says this:
'And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has” (Luke 12:42-44).
Thats a parable from Jesus himself. Being a wise steward
of your money does not include squandering it away in a
casino.
I don't think it's unwise at all to spend an "appropriate" (whatever that means to whoever) amount on entertainment, which I don't think is "squandering." When you turn it into something other than entertainment, then I think it's a problem. But only you can figure that out for yourself.
September 12th, 2011 at 8:13:23 PM
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Its really comes down to, is it a wise use of God’s resources of time and money?
To squander both in a casino seems unproductive in the extreme, and beneath
someone who others in the Church look to for guidance.
To squander both in a casino seems unproductive in the extreme, and beneath
someone who others in the Church look to for guidance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 8:15:24 PM
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Quote: EvenBobIts really comes down to, is it a wise use of God’s resources of time and money?
To squander both in a casino seems unproductive in the extreme, and beneath
someone who others in the Church look to for guidance.
So EvenBob, you are the judge of what is productive time for a preist? Golf, yes. Casinos, no. Expensive bottles of wine, no. Dinner at a moderate restaurant, yes?
September 12th, 2011 at 8:16:01 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerAll things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor. Or something ...
You should give footnotes when you quote. Frgamble would agree. Sounds like 1st corinthians.
September 12th, 2011 at 8:36:58 PM
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In a possible related thread...
(should God play dice with the Universe?)
Church raffle, church bingo. Priests gamble. What? What's the difference?
(should God play dice with the Universe?)
Church raffle, church bingo. Priests gamble. What? What's the difference?
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 12th, 2011 at 8:38:57 PM
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Quote: FinsRuleSo EvenBob, you are the judge of what is productive time for a preist?
OK, tell me how flushing your money down the toilet
by giving it to the casino is productive. Tell me how
it advances careers, or gives you a higher standing in
the community.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 8:40:28 PM
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" Not really. There's a remote chance dice setting may work. " There is a remote chance Bush and Cheney were behind 911.
September 12th, 2011 at 8:41:46 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerAll things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. Let no one seek his own good, but that of his neighbor.
Thats the quote from Paul they use as a tool
to preach against gambling.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 8:47:14 PM
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Quote: buzzpaff" Not really. There's a remote chance dice setting may work. " There is a remote chance Bush and Cheney were behind 911.
No, because evidence demonstrates otherwise. There is also zero chance you were behind 9/11. But it is possible. I mean, they may have hired the hijackers to do what they did. It's within the realm of possibility.
The odds that ancient Hebrew myths are real are about as good as the odds that ancient Egyptian myths are real. have you read your "Book of the Dead" lately?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 12th, 2011 at 8:54:48 PM
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And how much does your heart weigh ???
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee !
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee !
September 12th, 2011 at 8:55:07 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThats the quote from Paul they use as a tool
to preach against gambling.
Okay, so it's Corinthians. I just remembered it from a conversation a while back, no bible-plagiarism intended. For me, sometimes "creativity" = "forgot where I heard it."
But FWIW, my understanding of the saying is that you CAN do anything, but SHOULD you? If someone says it = "don't gamble," I would say it's a misuse. Also that the SHOULD part means you need to think how it will affect others.
In this case, the priest needs to think about what's okay for him and what's best for others, and let that guide him.
NB: that doesn't mean he should try to satisfy every atheist naysayer who just wants to criticize Catholicism, but to use judgment insofar as how seeing a gambling priest might affect, say, someone he knows to have a gambling problem.
September 12th, 2011 at 9:01:08 PM
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I have no problem with your gambling. I have always had a problem with the money wheel at The Catholic carnivals.
September 12th, 2011 at 9:01:16 PM
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If he asked whether he should start a TV ministry and solicit donations to start a mega-church so he could live in high style, I'd say, what are you, Satan?
Now, common gambling, I don't have a problem with.
Now, common gambling, I don't have a problem with.
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 12th, 2011 at 9:16:04 PM
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Quote: FrGambleAlso obviously I restrict myself to games that have the lowest possible house edge like blackjack, video poker, and craps (yes, I believe in dice setting which I've come to find out is as controversial as God's existence).
I think you can reasonably count on the majority of people on this thread to envision reasonable gambling as an interesting diversion for a priest. I imaging many priests are fairly scholarly and the details of probability are an interesting intellectual exercise. You should read "Beat the Dealer" from the 1960's, mostly for Professor Edward Thorpe's first hand account of scientifically developing advantage play for blackjack. Even though the principals are now well known, the first hand account is exciting.
My mother hates dice in particular, because my grandfather left his three children to be raised in abject poverty while he ran up gambling debts playing dice with the mob in the 1930's and 1940's. As far as she is concerned losing at gambling makes you angry, and winning at gambling makes you greedy and neither outcome is desirable. She is not going to be budged by any discussions of intellectual fascination.
My little brother is a minister in UCC and he finds dice fascinating. He enjoys winning.
It's obviously a difficult position to worry about your parishioners views of the world.
September 12th, 2011 at 9:17:58 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerBut FWIW, my understanding of the saying is that you CAN do anything, but SHOULD you?
The key word in the quote is 'edify'. In this context,
it means 'does it instruct and improve' others. Gambling
does the polar opposite of instructing and improving
others.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 9:30:09 PM
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Why are you asking us? Why not ask your god? If he says it's okay, then it's okay. If he doesn't answer, maybe he's not even there.
"Poker sure is an easy game to beat if you have the roll to keep rebuying."
September 12th, 2011 at 9:39:04 PM
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Quote: EvenBobActually, the religion of which he is a major player in,
says this:
'And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has” (Luke 12:42-44).
Thats a parable from Jesus himself. Being a wise steward of your money does not include squandering it away in a casino.
Wow, EvenBob. That is quite the quote. Excellent.
I don't think a priest should gamble. They are supposed to be representing God and living a moral life. There are enough problem gamblers out there, enough money being taken away from old people, that I don't think a priest should be encouraging that behavior. Inotherwords, there will likely be a few members of your congregation that are suffering from some sort of gambling problem, and as a leader of your community, you shouldn't be encouraging that behavior by betting 0 on a roulette spin with members of your congregation.
On the other hand, I think everyone should have their vices. Priests have it tough enough. Gambling is not a sin, but it can be seen as "squandering". My advice: if you must gamble, do it online, or do it far away from home.
On a third hand, plenty of churches host casino nights as a form of fundraiser, so you're sort of encouraging gambling.
So, my final thought: you're human, you're not sinning, other churches do it, but I would keep your habit far away from your congregation.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
September 12th, 2011 at 9:44:34 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThe key word in the quote is 'edify'. In this context,
it means 'does it instruct and improve' others. Gambling
does the polar opposite of instructing and improving
others.
I think gambling is amoral, and that any amoral thing can be turned into a vice when it's overdone.
But if you're right and gambling truly does the polar opposite of instruct and improve, that begs the question why you have become such a major contributor to a gambling website.
I don't ask that in a "gotcha" sense, but the question does present itself as it seems like a pretty major disconnect.
September 12th, 2011 at 9:48:43 PM
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Quote: boymimboOn the other hand, I think everyone should have their vices. Priests have it tough enough.
Having it tough is rather the point, isn't it. All of the
Apostles died horrible deaths for their religion. Abstaining
from casino gambling is nothing by comparison.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 9:52:24 PM
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Quote: ItsCalledSoccerI don't ask that in a "gotcha" sense, but the question does present itself as it seems like a pretty major disconnect.
I never gamble. I never play unless I know I'm
going to win. My wife's the gambler in the family.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 12th, 2011 at 9:57:54 PM
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There is a story, certainly apocryphal but sometimes presented as fact, that Roulette was invented by a priest or a monk who was trying to raise money for his church/monastery. He was successful in what I suppose may have been the very first Casino Night fundraiser (a tradition that my local Catholic churches seem to be interested in maintaining, FWIW, albeit without games as expensive to set up as roulette, and always with terrible table limits). The cleric then became obsessed with beating the wheel, and spent the rest of his life trying to come up with a system that would allow him to do so, possibly at the expense of his own reputation. Incidentally, this is how we know the story is apocryphal; as the cleric himself would have been the House, he would have already had a system guaranteed to leave him ahead built right into the game in the form of HE.
September 12th, 2011 at 11:02:26 PM
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Gambling is evil. Especially if you split 5s, don't take odds, play a 6/5 game or draw to an inside straight.
September 12th, 2011 at 11:02:41 PM
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Quote: EvenBobI never gamble. I never play unless I know I'm
going to win. My wife's the gambler in the family.
Assuming you don't have your wife tied up, sounds like a losing system to me.
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 12th, 2011 at 11:23:45 PM
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Quote: rxwineAssuming you don't have your wife tied up, sounds like a losing system to me.
She rarely goes, she can't afford it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 13th, 2011 at 1:39:39 AM
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I think gambling is most closely associated with the Catholic church.
Bingo, raffles, fairs, lottery tickets.
Now if you are asking about moral correctness, I see no difference between a church raffle that includes a Basket of Cheer or a Church sponsored Bingo Hall. The church pushes the raffle and the booze but only in some ancilliary building. The Bingo takes place in a separate hall. So casting lots directly in the church itself is avoided yet clearly the practices are condoned and even encouraged.
To the degree that a casino is alleged to "bleed the poor" I would assume that such allegations against the church are far more numerous and probably far more valid. I would think that churches constitute more of a neighborhood blight than a casino does. Churches attract poor people, crowds, create parking problems, create traffic jams and saddle neighborhoods with crosswalks, speed limits and noisy brats. Churches often ring bells and in other ways annoy neighborhoods whereas casinos merely exist in a neighborhood. Churches often host various support groups that focus on deviants. At most a casino provides pamphlets about one support group but does not house it.
I have no idea if it is true or not, but supposedly "men of the cloth" (No, I have no idea what cloth they are talking about) are supposed to lead exemplary lives as far as personal conduct goes. With all the pedophile allegations and tax fraud allegations I rather think that religious officials lead lives that are not much different than people who choose other businesses to work in. The fact that some churches ban social dancing is strange to me, but alot in this world is strange to me. The man who rose to the position of Chaplain of the Senate was a member of a church whose officials condemned movies. He went into a movie theater and found the film to be entertaining and good moral guidance for the young. So values do change and are by no means absolute.
Now what one priest does on his own time and on his own dime is hardly a matter of public discussion. Personally I would think that when it comes to sensible conduct shooting craps sure beats playing golf. I see no reason why someone can not pursue happiness as he sees fit. And I see no reason why the wearing of a unique collar referred to as clerical should prevent someone from entering a casino and playing a game of chance. His time, his dime. Frankly, I think casinos should be more concerned if a bank teller or bank executive is playing at a casino than if a priest is playing there.
Bingo, raffles, fairs, lottery tickets.
Now if you are asking about moral correctness, I see no difference between a church raffle that includes a Basket of Cheer or a Church sponsored Bingo Hall. The church pushes the raffle and the booze but only in some ancilliary building. The Bingo takes place in a separate hall. So casting lots directly in the church itself is avoided yet clearly the practices are condoned and even encouraged.
To the degree that a casino is alleged to "bleed the poor" I would assume that such allegations against the church are far more numerous and probably far more valid. I would think that churches constitute more of a neighborhood blight than a casino does. Churches attract poor people, crowds, create parking problems, create traffic jams and saddle neighborhoods with crosswalks, speed limits and noisy brats. Churches often ring bells and in other ways annoy neighborhoods whereas casinos merely exist in a neighborhood. Churches often host various support groups that focus on deviants. At most a casino provides pamphlets about one support group but does not house it.
I have no idea if it is true or not, but supposedly "men of the cloth" (No, I have no idea what cloth they are talking about) are supposed to lead exemplary lives as far as personal conduct goes. With all the pedophile allegations and tax fraud allegations I rather think that religious officials lead lives that are not much different than people who choose other businesses to work in. The fact that some churches ban social dancing is strange to me, but alot in this world is strange to me. The man who rose to the position of Chaplain of the Senate was a member of a church whose officials condemned movies. He went into a movie theater and found the film to be entertaining and good moral guidance for the young. So values do change and are by no means absolute.
Now what one priest does on his own time and on his own dime is hardly a matter of public discussion. Personally I would think that when it comes to sensible conduct shooting craps sure beats playing golf. I see no reason why someone can not pursue happiness as he sees fit. And I see no reason why the wearing of a unique collar referred to as clerical should prevent someone from entering a casino and playing a game of chance. His time, his dime. Frankly, I think casinos should be more concerned if a bank teller or bank executive is playing at a casino than if a priest is playing there.
September 13th, 2011 at 1:54:01 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffNow what one priest does on his own time and on his own dime is hardly a matter of public discussion.
Of course it is. What do you think the priesthood is, the Boy Scouts?
You go down that road, fully knowing whats in front of you. He wants
our 'permission' to do something he knows is not right. Whats wrong with
this picture.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 13th, 2011 at 2:45:03 AM
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From what little reading I've done on this (which is just tonight) looks like the Catholics approach this as something which is acceptable on certain conditions which involve staying within certain boundaries of good behavior and practice.
"Thou shalt not gamble" doesn't appear to be one of big ten either.
"Thou shalt not gamble" doesn't appear to be one of big ten either.
Sanitized for Your Protection
September 13th, 2011 at 2:54:02 AM
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I was raised a Protestant, so you can imagine my initial thoughts.
I really hope you would be able to do what you want with your free time, perhaps though you might have to realistically conclude this is not the case for you. My own feeling about it is that you could probably sit in on some poker games and get away with it, but probably should not be seen gambling in a casino.
Men of the cloth of all faiths have demonstrated that they are not immune to falling into Vice, so there would also be the same risk of excess that all gamblers need to be aware of. I seem to remember a recent story of an Illinois [or was it Iowa or Indiana?] priest going to jail for a while for pilfering Church funds to support his gambling. While I don't know, I actually wonder if it is similar to the risk of drug addiction for Doctors? The hubris of the thought that " I, a Doctor, am not going to get addicted to these drugs that I have so much access to because, well, I am a Doctor" has been cited as a factor for those folks. Can someone immersed in dealing with the sins of others feel that he is too trained to fall into sin himself, and actually thus become vulnerable to it? Gambling itself is no sin, but you know where I am going with this.
Just my thoughts.
I really hope you would be able to do what you want with your free time, perhaps though you might have to realistically conclude this is not the case for you. My own feeling about it is that you could probably sit in on some poker games and get away with it, but probably should not be seen gambling in a casino.
Men of the cloth of all faiths have demonstrated that they are not immune to falling into Vice, so there would also be the same risk of excess that all gamblers need to be aware of. I seem to remember a recent story of an Illinois [or was it Iowa or Indiana?] priest going to jail for a while for pilfering Church funds to support his gambling. While I don't know, I actually wonder if it is similar to the risk of drug addiction for Doctors? The hubris of the thought that " I, a Doctor, am not going to get addicted to these drugs that I have so much access to because, well, I am a Doctor" has been cited as a factor for those folks. Can someone immersed in dealing with the sins of others feel that he is too trained to fall into sin himself, and actually thus become vulnerable to it? Gambling itself is no sin, but you know where I am going with this.
Just my thoughts.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 13th, 2011 at 3:33:17 AM
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Quote: EvenBobOK, tell me how flushing your money down the toilet by giving it to the casino is productive.
It's the only form of entertainment where:
1. You can leave with more more than what you came in with. See it every night. No other form of entertainment provides this opportunity as its basis. Not guaranteed, but when you go to a show, a movie, a restaurant, etc., what is guaranteed there is that it can ONLY cost you money, and without the guarantee of having a good time.
2. It's more fun - entertaining - than many forms of entertainment.
Quote: EvenBobTell me how it advances careers...
Well, for starters: dealer -> floorman -> Pit Boss -> Shift Manager -> Casino Manager. This is along with other gaming professions like game designer, production manager, patent lawyer, and gaming mathematician. I wonder how the gaming industry advanced Mike Shackelford's career, Anthony Curtis' career, and Bill Zender's career. I know it advanced my own career. I love the feel of walking into a new car dealership's showroom and saying..."Yeah, I'll take THAT one."
Not to mention:
Hotel reservations, valet drivers, cocktail waitresses, workers at retail outlets at casinos, etc.
And of course:
Addiction Counselor -> Shift manager at a rehab -> Rehab Manager -> 12 step Self-help guru, etc.
and:
Quote: EvenBob...or gives you a higher standing in the community.
A Shift Manager or Casino Manager has a lot higher standing in the community than most professions: Cab driver, cook, Bus driver, secretary, car wash attendant, etc. Forget about Being a Casinos OWNER....
At a cocktail party, would you rather answer a hot chick's question of "Well, handsome - what do YOU do?" with "Oh - I work at Pizza Hut!" or "I manage the Hard Rock Casino!"
Bob rants on Casinos and Casino workers, yet he rambles on here at a Gambler's forum, and probably gambles himself.
Gaming Industry? - One Great and Legitimate industry....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 13th, 2011 at 3:36:25 AM
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If a priest can have a beer, he should be able to gamble.
(I actually have no idea if priests can have beer, I'm not catholic) I think the comparison is good. You can be addicted to both, and both can be vices.
There shouldn't be as much of a stigma to gambling as there is. I'm surprised so many people on here commenting think that gambling is immoral. Yet, the poll says he should go. It's very interesting...
(I actually have no idea if priests can have beer, I'm not catholic) I think the comparison is good. You can be addicted to both, and both can be vices.
There shouldn't be as much of a stigma to gambling as there is. I'm surprised so many people on here commenting think that gambling is immoral. Yet, the poll says he should go. It's very interesting...
September 13th, 2011 at 3:39:38 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitWhile I don't know, I actually wonder if it is similar to the risk of drug addiction for Doctors? The hubris of the thought that " I, a Doctor, am not going to get addicted to these drugs that I have so much access to because, well, I am a Doctor" has been cited as a factor for those folks. Can someone immersed in dealing with the sins of others feel that he is too trained to fall into sin himself, and actually thus become vulnerable to it? Gambling itself is no sin, but you know where I am going with this.
The Standard Textbook of Alcoholics' Anonymous has a chapter in recovery called "Doctor, Alcoholic, Addict."
Edit: should a priest gamble? Yes. But I will add: "Skip ALL forms of cheating, shot-taking, and advantage play." Can you imaging a priest being backed off from card counting, being told "Sorry father, that kind of crap is o-u-t - OUT! Security will escort you out, - and go to confession on this one!" Card counting as verboten is a known casino ground rule for Blackjack - but okay for poker. I only feel it's a sin because it is a ground rule I have to enforce as a casino dealer.
Play Poker, dice, Pai Gow, Roulette, or even BJ by the casino's house rules.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 13th, 2011 at 5:58:04 AM
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Some really good and interesting responses, to be honest I never thought EvenBob was going to thoughtfully prick my conscience.
To reiterate I am at peace with the idea of responsible gambling, as someone mentioned it is morally neutral, a form of entertainment that certainly can become a vice very easily but is not evil by its very nature. I have not taken a vow of poverty as a diocesan priest and do feel that I could play golf, collect baseball cards, take up a musical instrument, learn to fly, or gamble as hobby that costs money. Why I asked the question was to hear what other people would think about the idea, I thought to myself if the WoV forum has a problem with it my gambling days may be numbered.
One quick story from my seminary days. As a young seminarian I got in trouble because I started pushing to eliminate all alcohol from the seminary (remember I was young). Some of the guys would have a beer or relax with a drink at the end of the day. Nobody seemed to have problem with alcohol but I quoted 1 Corinthians chapter 8 to try to put an end to it. Instead of quoting the whole chapter I will paraphrase it: St. Paul says to the Corinthians, 'look many of you guys know that meat sacrificed to idols is just normal meat because there is no such thing as idols or gods plural, however there are some new Christians who have just left paganism who are not quite as sure as you. They see you hanging out in the pagan temple eating the meat and they are scandalized. So even though it is not a sin, for the sake of your brothers and sisters who have a problem with it, stop eating that meat - make a little sacrifice for them." Anyway this argument is coming back to me through your comments. I mentioned I got in trouble for pushing this issue because the rector of the seminary thought I was being too strict and taking Paul's argument too far. He worried that as a parish priest you want others to see you as human like the Lord, who also drank and was accused of being a drunkard. Now with my interest in gambling I'm wondering if I'm taking the rector's argument too far, I already love sports, like scotch, and smoke a nice cigar on occasion.
To reiterate I am at peace with the idea of responsible gambling, as someone mentioned it is morally neutral, a form of entertainment that certainly can become a vice very easily but is not evil by its very nature. I have not taken a vow of poverty as a diocesan priest and do feel that I could play golf, collect baseball cards, take up a musical instrument, learn to fly, or gamble as hobby that costs money. Why I asked the question was to hear what other people would think about the idea, I thought to myself if the WoV forum has a problem with it my gambling days may be numbered.
One quick story from my seminary days. As a young seminarian I got in trouble because I started pushing to eliminate all alcohol from the seminary (remember I was young). Some of the guys would have a beer or relax with a drink at the end of the day. Nobody seemed to have problem with alcohol but I quoted 1 Corinthians chapter 8 to try to put an end to it. Instead of quoting the whole chapter I will paraphrase it: St. Paul says to the Corinthians, 'look many of you guys know that meat sacrificed to idols is just normal meat because there is no such thing as idols or gods plural, however there are some new Christians who have just left paganism who are not quite as sure as you. They see you hanging out in the pagan temple eating the meat and they are scandalized. So even though it is not a sin, for the sake of your brothers and sisters who have a problem with it, stop eating that meat - make a little sacrifice for them." Anyway this argument is coming back to me through your comments. I mentioned I got in trouble for pushing this issue because the rector of the seminary thought I was being too strict and taking Paul's argument too far. He worried that as a parish priest you want others to see you as human like the Lord, who also drank and was accused of being a drunkard. Now with my interest in gambling I'm wondering if I'm taking the rector's argument too far, I already love sports, like scotch, and smoke a nice cigar on occasion.
September 13th, 2011 at 6:29:14 AM
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Quite honestly I am annoyed by everything EvenBob had to say on this topic. I personally see no problem with you gambling recreationally as long as you gamble within your means. I know friends that golf, a hobby that I don't have, who spend way more than I could lose gambling. If that is the way you spend your money to relax and enjoy yourself who is to say it is right or wrong? Of course there will be people who are naysayers, but who are they to judge you when I am sure you do not judge them.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:02:32 AM
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EvenBob I think you have unintentionally pointed out what is wrong with almost everyones moral position. You want to hold someone else to a higher moral standard than yourself. A priest (or equivalent of any religion) that is really respected and becomes loved does it by helping everyone they meet deal with life. Not by scaring and threating people. They also show honesty about there own lifestyle and accept the fact that they are human. Lighten up EvenBob, since you like to quote old books how about '...... the first stone'.
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:14:49 AM
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Quote: FrGamble....Now with my interest in gambling I'm wondering if I'm taking the rector's argument too far, I already love sports, like scotch, and smoke a nice cigar on occasion.
No, you are not. All normal human activities. Rabbis can smoke and drink, and like Deacons be a husband and father.
My pastoral advice as a "casino monk" (or a cop, more aptly):
1. You're a Catholic Christian, not a Mormon Christian - and some floor supervisors at my casino are Mormons. (They can supervise gambling games as a career, but may not gamble; IMO, this is a little like being a virgin sex conselor, but WTH.) So You may gamble: "Go, and play some more!"
2. Don't wear the collar at the tables: civilian clothes.
3. I will get a lot of flack from this forum from the Advantage Players here - but I forbid you to count cards, if I can! Secretly breaking a known casino ground rule for Blackjack is a bad faith violation of the spirit of the game producing a clear ethical conflict for someone of a higher standard: Blackjack was developed as a casino game before it was known it was countable, unlike poker where many forms of espionage are part of the game, and Blackjack was kept by casinos with that standard eternal policy. So, follow this as a matter of Priestly/Pastoral ethics. Plus, you can't make money at it nowadays, it looks bad for a priest to be backed off (angels are watching, and they know), and it's a confessionable venial sin, unlike a good cigar.
4. Also, if you see a hole card flashed on BJ or Three-card Poker, etc: a) mention it to the dealer right at the table, saying "this is wrong;" then b) fold a winning hand, or else c) play out a known losing hand. You will receive grace and get blessing by the Saints and the Angels assigned to the realm of gambling. Believe me, they exist! Also follow this as a matter of Priestly/Pastoral ethics!
5. Any indication of a compulsion forming must be examined, of course.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:24:14 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanI forbid you to count cards, if I can!
But if your casino has a triple-down promotion in BJ you may participate!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
September 13th, 2011 at 8:28:03 AM
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Quote: FrGambleNow with my interest in gambling I'm wondering if I'm taking the rector's argument too far, I already love sports, like scotch, and smoke a nice cigar on occasion.
Teetotalism is not a solid indication of virtue. Adolf Hitler was a teetotaler. By virtue of your vows you've already given up sexual relationships.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:37:41 AM
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Quote: jsantee97who are they to judge you when I am sure you do not judge them.
Isn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?
September 13th, 2011 at 8:48:57 AM
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Quote: pacomartin...Adolf Hitler was a teetotaler....
Yes, but his personal physician would inject him a blast of methamphetamine on a frequent basis.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:53:16 AM
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Quote: kpIsn't judging others and telling them how to live their lives one of the primary foundations of religion?
No.
Not in Buddhism (where letting others "live and let live" without religious judgement is extremely Buddhist), not in so-called Christiandom where we have separation of church and state, and not in any religion that doesn't try to impose honor killings on family members or Sharia law and their courts and goon squads on the populace.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:56:03 AM
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I'm OK with EvenBob's line of response. I think he's doing a good job of raising thoughtful objections that are within FrGamble's circumstance and beliefs. If there is any debate at all on the issue, the "don't gamble" argument given by EB is the one that carries the most weight.
A falling knife has no handle.
September 13th, 2011 at 8:59:38 AM
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How so?
EB sounds pretty intolerant and "off-the-mark" about casinos and casino gambling to me, perhaps to many of us, and at a gamblers' forum of all places.
I am pro-gambling. I am anti-cheating, anti-breaking the house rules, and anti-shot takers, which are actually anti-gambling acts.
A lot of us think EB's an absolute feather weight on all things gaming, to avoid using other adjectives and abverbs that may be inflamatory.
EB sounds pretty intolerant and "off-the-mark" about casinos and casino gambling to me, perhaps to many of us, and at a gamblers' forum of all places.
I am pro-gambling. I am anti-cheating, anti-breaking the house rules, and anti-shot takers, which are actually anti-gambling acts.
A lot of us think EB's an absolute feather weight on all things gaming, to avoid using other adjectives and abverbs that may be inflamatory.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
