Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
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March 5th, 2012 at 8:18:05 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I remember when I first heard the Church
wouldn't let girls wear patent leather shoes
because they were so shiny a boy could
possibly see up a girls skirt. Do you realize
how utterly obsessed with sex you have
to be to come up something so ridiculous?



And can you see how close that is to demanding that women wear burkas?
NO KILL I
EvenBob
EvenBob
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March 5th, 2012 at 8:33:32 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

And can you see how close that is to demanding that women wear burkas?



Of course, its all about control. The Church has always
been about total control of peoples lives, and they've
lost so much of that in the last 75 years and have never
gotten over it. They even control the lives of the men
who come forward and say they were abused. The Church
pays for treatment and is very nice to them, until the statute
of limitations runs out and they can't be sued. Then they kick
the poor guy to the curb, another fortune saved.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
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March 5th, 2012 at 10:04:09 AM permalink
Please note that the following post does not mention the Church or religion so try not to respond with such hate filled, truth distorted, and bigoted statements about Catholicism and instead focus on the topic of a discussion on artificial birth control:

Natural Family Planning is a natural way to conceive or to responsibly plan your family. Since it uses our knowledge of biology and the human body it is completely healthy. In a day and age when everything is organic and natural and we are all realizing how much harm artificial hormones and chemicals can do, it is by far the safest choice for women. When used correctly it is 99% effective. study It encourages regular conversation about the decision to have or not have children, the feelings and emotions of both partners in regards to sex. It engages the reason and the will in control of our desires so we don't run roughshod over our partners for our own pleasure. For all of these reasons and more the divorce rate of couples who practice NFP is around a staggering 0.2%. study It heightens the glorious gift of making love between couples, especially after days in which they abstain, and helps foster other spiritual ways in which couples show love for each other. It is just good all around.

Contraception and abortion inducing drugs have led to an ever increasing transmission of sexually transmitted diseases, unplanned pregnancies, and abortions. It has contributed to looking at women as nothing more than objects for sexual pleasure and led to an explosion in the making and distribution of pornography and sexual abuse, including slavery, of women. As people have already mentioned the rates of infidelity and cheating on the marriage vows has increased. It is just bad all around.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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March 5th, 2012 at 10:34:02 AM permalink
" Natural Family Planning is a natural way to conceive or to responsibly plan your family. " It may be natural but way proof do you offer that it is responsible ??
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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March 5th, 2012 at 10:48:50 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

Contraception and abortion inducing drugs have led to an ever increasing transmission of sexually transmitted diseases, unplanned pregnancies, and abortions.

As far as unplanned pregnancy and abortion go .. do you understand how female contraception works? Because those are the very things it prevents. Certainly prevents it better thannatural family planning. Further, natural family planning doesn't prevent any more diseases than the pill and in fact, it's quite a bit less effective than condoms. Referring continually to women as objects of sexual pleasure says more about you than about men in general.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Mosca
Mosca
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March 5th, 2012 at 11:03:48 AM permalink
Let's be clear on one thing: contraception isn't about planning, it's about being free from the need to plan.

Regarding infidelity and sexually transmitted disease:

Those things have been around a pretty long time. Pre-contraception.


Regarding looking at women as an nothing more than objects of pleasure:

Wow, FrG. I give you a lot of leeway on stuff. But now you're simplifying things a bit, aren't you? Women and men as objects of each others' desire, for pleasure, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. That woman walking down the street, whom I don't know: she's going to be looked at as an object of pleasure. Birth control isn't an issue. And at the same time, that thought is going to flit through my mind and be gone, as I look back to see if the light has changed. My wife: she'd be pretty damn pissed off if, when the doors close, I didn't think of her as an object of pleasure. We're capable of holding both thoughts in our heads at the same time, after all. What contraception does is gives women sexual equality. A woman is now free to explore her sexuality in whatever way she wants. If that means more spontaneity, that's awesome. If it means she wants multiple partners, who cares? And why should they?


Regarding unplanned pregnancies and abortions: I think this is a bit of a stretch, saying that contraception leads to unplanned pregnancy and abortion. Common sense says that it prevents unplanned pregnancy and abortion.


Regarding pornography, sexual abuse, and slavery of women: I'd say that these are all independent of contraception. All have been around a long time. Again, I think you're stretching here.



People haven't changed. All these things that you bring up, they were issues before contraception. They are still issues. Folks have screwed around since before history. The one thing that has changed, and the one thing that has made a difference in UNENSLAVING women, and in FREEING them from being solely objects of desire, is contraception. Because contraception gives them freedom. It gives them freedom to compete equally in the workplace. It frees them from the responsibility of child bearing, while indulging their need to be sexual. It frees them to be EQUALS of men sexually.


By the way, I have 4 sisters. I absolutely remember them being told in Sunday School not to wear shiny patent leather shoes, for that very reason. Of course then we boys went out and put mirrors on our shoes. But we couldn't get our foot underneath the skirts. With most of the girls, anyhow. Some of them let us. I don't think anyone was thinking about birth control, we were just being humans.
NO KILL I
boymimbo
boymimbo
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March 5th, 2012 at 11:05:00 AM permalink
The actual first study that FrGamble refers to is here.. It's a decent study, but the pregnancy rate overall is much lower than expected by a factor of about 3 among those having unprotected sex during the fertile period. The sample size is very small, with 322 participants in the NFP group at the outset which decreased to 200 participants after 12 cycles.

The second study is clearly publicized by a biased group (physiciansforlife.org) and should be discarded.

As for your other point, yeah, sure. The catholic church's ideal is abstinence during the fertile period. We get that. Every sperm is sacred. However, this practice is not being followed (at all!) by your own community. Why? Because couples like to have sex between days more than 11 days out of each cycle (Days 1 to 5 are often bloody, and days 6 to 17 of each menstrual cycle are considered to be the dangerous zone according to NFP).

Therefore, you have a choice: drive people away from the catholic church because of this (as you are driving me away right now) or accept contraception as a fact of life, get more people in the pews, and move on.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
EvenBob
EvenBob
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March 5th, 2012 at 12:18:30 PM permalink
A staggering 2% of Catholics actually practice NFP. And
of course their divorce rate is lower, their CATHOLICS.

Again, this is all about control, how much control a Church
can have over its members. Islamists do the same thing
to the women in their church, try and control them as much
as possible. The Church used to have almost as much control
over women as the modern Muslims do. All they have left
is birth control and keeping them out of the priesthood and
those will drop away sooner rather than later if the Church
is to survive. Want to stop the rogue priests from having
their way with boys? Put a few women in high ranking positions
and you'll see those priests swinging in the courtyard, twirling
in the breeze. Women loathe men who mess with their
children, and thats putting it mildly.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
FrGamble
FrGamble
Joined: Jun 5, 2011
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March 5th, 2012 at 1:17:05 PM permalink
We have all been sold the myth of "safe sex". Put on a condom or use the pill and your sexual exploits are invincible. In Zimbabwae I have unfortunately seen the consequences of this first hand. Some missionaries told me entire generations were simply lost to AIDS and some of the places I visited had infection rates as high as 90%. Why? Because someone said don't control your desires instead use this condom and do whatever you want. Contraception gives people a false sense of security not only towards avoiding pregnancy but also towards not contracting disease. That is why artificial birth control has actually increased the number of unplanned pregnancies and STDs. What we should be doing instead of teaching people about condoms is teaching them about the beauty, power, and sacredness of sex. We also need to educate people on how to use their reason and their will power to be in control of their passions and not let their passions control them.

It is so sad to hear people talk about contraception as a "women's issue". Men are the main proponents of contraception so they can continue to have lots of sex and have no consequences. You have to remember that women have a lot more invested into every sexual act than men do. Wouldn't it be better if instead of trying to always look at sex through a man's eyes we actually look at it as a beautiful and intimate act done with a person that we are committed to completely so that if new life results from this union it is not a disaster or a problem but the fruit of a healthy relationship?

In regards to the frequency of making love using NFP the truth is that using all of the indicators our body naturally gives us you will be able to have sex at nearly twice the average rate of couples. Once more a few of those romps in the hay are more intense and powerful because you have abstained and anticipated the moment. You also learn that our relationship is not made up only of great sex. You learn to love each other in different ways that will always be there for you when for other reasons or just because you grow old together can no longer be physically intimate.

I am reminded of a point in the Gospels where Jesus' difficult teaching on the Eucharist was being rejecting (read John chap. 6). he turns to his disciples and he asks them, "are you going to leave me too?" Notice he is not changing his teaching or skimping on the truth even if it is hard for people to hear. They say, "To whom could we go Lord? You have the words of everlasting life." I'm very sorry people, even Catholics, have a hard time with the very real and difficult challenge of sexual morality (thank God for Confession, huh?). However, I have seen and have come to believe that this teaching transforms lives and saves marriages. You indeed Lord have the words of truth and everlasting life.
s2dbaker
s2dbaker
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March 5th, 2012 at 1:25:52 PM permalink
I can appreciate your gratitude to your invisible friend for giving you everlasting life but He's still 100% wrong when it comes to birth control.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez

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